Slightly tangential rant, but is anybody else becoming frustrated with the process of buying Apple products in Apple stores? For me, it started with the Apple Watch - I knew which one I wanted and was ready just to head down and buy one, but I was forced to sit through an entire "fitting" with patronising explanation on how to use the knob on the the side. Recently, I wanted to buy a new Phone. Again, I knew the one I wanted and was ready to part with cash and walk out with a box as quickly as possible - I approached a sales assistant, said: "Hi, I'd like to buy a new phone please" (or words to that effect) to be informed that if I didn't have an appointment, it would take half an hour or so to get somebody over. A random store nearby that also sold phones had no issue selling me one.
The whole experience of visiting an Apple store has changed from being something I looked forward to just another shopping chore. The VR headset is a case in point - if I want to be guided through the process, then I will ask for that. Otherwise, just sell me the damn product! I guess maybe I'm just not their target audience any more.
Yeah absolutely. Every time I’ve been in my local Apple Store, I’ve basically been talked out of purchasing, or it becomes a huge hassle of upselling and extra worrying charges, and quite frankly, stupidity and lack of knowledge from the pseudo-smart staff. All they can do is toe the party line and what they’ve been trained to say and do, which kind of falls apart when faced with someone who has used Apple computers and products for some 25 years now. Most recently I walked in and basically said “I would just like to buy this phone right now” when I wanted an iPhone Pro Max in a rush, and the hassle that I got led to me walking out and going to John Lewis (uk department store) next door, where I said “I would like to buy an iPhone Pro Max” and had one in my hands 90 seconds later and was paying for it, at £60 cheaper than Apple.
Apples pricing structure is also annoying nowadays too. As soon as one specs out and bumps a laptop, one suddenly finds that they may as well get a different laptop, ie once you bump up a MacBook Air, you may as well just buy a Pro, until all of a sudden your £999 purchase idea has turned into £3000 and a debate about AppleCare.
I've given up on simply walking into an Apple store to just buy something for the past few years. The closest you can get to this is by ordering online ahead of time, then walking into the store an hour later and picking it up.
I've walked into an Apple Store and told the person triaging people walking in, "I know EXACTLY what iPhone I want". They send me to the iPhone area where I have to wait in a queue behind 5 other people who need to be sold the damn iPhone. The customers I'm waiting for are either deliberating between a few different models or have no idea what they should get, so the people working in the store are busy talking to them for much longer than I care to wait.
I wish Apple would add a step to their triage to handle people who walk into the store and say, "I know EXACTLY what I want, _________"
Meanwhile I had the opposite experience in a Google Store recently. I picked a phone case off the shelf in 10s, told the nearest employee I wanted to buy it, and he immediately whipped out a credit card scanner and I bought it right there in 30s. Didn't even need to go to the checkout counter or anything. It probably helps that that store is less crowded than the Apple store, but their training at least seems to involve making the purchasing flow as efficient as possible.
> Apples pricing structure is also annoying nowadays too. As soon as one specs out and bumps a laptop, one suddenly finds that they may as well get a different laptop, ie once you bump up a MacBook Air, you may as well just buy a Pro, until all of a sudden your £999 purchase idea has turned into £3000 and a debate about AppleCare.
Their pricing structure on basically all of their product lines is absolutely perfect from a capitalism/business perspective. They are so good at getting people to buy more than they need. It's impressive.
Not necessarily. I already have a MBP but I wanted something lighter to bring to coffee shops or use in taxis, so I bought a nicely specced MBA. Yes I could have gotten a MBP for the same price but they’re literally different form factors and bigger isn’t always better.
This was exactly my experience trying to buy an Apple Watch from the Apple Store just before the pandemic. I had done all the research ahead of time and knew exactly what I needed. “Do you have an appointment?” No. “Oh, it’ll be about 45 minutes before someone can help you.” But I know what I want and just need you to ring me up. “I’m sorry, 45 minutes.”
Hands down the strangest retail interaction I’ve ever had. Frustrated, I went to the Best Buy literally in the mall’s parking lot and was on my way in under 10 minutes with the watch I wanted. I guess Apple still won here since I bought the product anyhow?
> “Do you have an appointment?” No. “Oh, it’ll be about 45 minutes before someone can help you.”
Ah, yes, the Ferrari customer experience. You need to be selected by the manufacturer to be allowed to buy their product. It makes the product feel rare and exclusive, and the customer feel "special", when it's a consumer product made by the same Chinese sweatshop workers that make your other e-waste.
If you want to buy an iPhone with minimal interaction, just use the website or app, for in store pickup. Takes no time at all!
I will agree that it’s ridiculous for customers to have to wait for an appointment to buy a watch band, which I’ve seen. There were several employees standing around at the time, inexplicably.
you know, i tried this first time recently. placed order at 10am. no pickup that day. ready at 1pm next day! go to store. had to wait ten minutes after i wated at the door to checkin my appt (why). whole time employees small talking me. guy finally finds my box and shoves it in my hands and i was finally free from that cursed overpriced garbagehole
Was coming here to say the same; I don’t think I’ve ever come to the Apple Store to buy something; always order it online through their app or website and choose store pick up. You schedule a time, stop in, verify ID, and are out within a few minutes.
Can't you also buy these products online? I'm not surprised that the in-store experience has become such a high touch affair when the customer base that would have wanted less interaction have already self-selected out by not going to the store at all
I just had this exact experience because my phone was irrevocably ruined, so I needed to pick a replacement up the same day.
The Apple Store was a very poor experience with a sales agent I knew more than trying, repeatedly, to explain to me things like backup, Apple Care, etc., etc. I also for some reason had to talk to four different people, and the only one that could actually help me was busy while everyone else in the store was standing around. It should have taken 10 minutes and it took the better part of an hour.
I usually place an order online and pickup at the store for reasons. Never had it take more than a few minutes. I did check out the Apple Watch Ultra in a store to make sure I was OK with the size and the band but again very straightforward.
A few years back I bought a MBP online with the pickup option. I picked it up, declined their assistance setting it up and went about my day.
I get home later that day, start to set it up and it’s locked to employees of a bank in Canada. Live support is no help so I take it back, only to find out the serial number did not match that on the box. They had their security guard quietly come stand near me until they figured out what they wanted to do.
The sales guy told me since they can’t prove I stole it they were giving me a different one. I think they knew it was previously returned and realized they got scammed by someone else the first time around.
This time I made sure I could login before I left.
Within the return window the new 16” came out at the same price so I took it in and swapped it for the 16”. They just took it, handed me the new laptop, transferred Apple Care and sent me on my way. It made sense as they didn’t bother to verify the box/device serial number with me. They took my word and processed everything in a matter of minutes.
That corporate lock thing is called DEP, device enrollment program. It used to be easy to bypass (just don't connect to internet during setup) but then it would bug you constantly once you did. On T2/M1/M2 macs it's no longer bypassable similar to the apple account lock anti theft feature (which is a different thing)
Apple can remove it of course. It was probably a laptop stolen from the bank or their suppliers, then returned to Apple to whitewash it.
I'm not surprised this happens. What I am surprised about is that Apple apparently sells a returned item to another customer as new. Pretty sure that's not their policy and in most cases illegal. Perhaps they checked the seals (for activating DEP you don't need to open the box at all!) but still this shouldn't happen.
Normally these items go through a cleaning and reimaging process and then end up on the refurb store at a reduced price.
Did they not scan both??? Many big box retail stores have to scan both the box and the barcode of the item through it (i.e. a Playstation) before the transaction can be completed. Yikes.
Apple stores used to feel kind of special in the early ipod/iphone era, almost like the employees were excited about the technology products they were selling. But the population of friendly and smart techy employees willing to work for retail wages in most American cities had to have always been tiny and with Apple’s growth it was exhausted long ago and employee quality has diluted at the same time as traffic has increased.
When I last went to an Apple Store to get a new one (while wearing my current Apple Watch) I just said “I know what I want and what I’m doing”.
They handed me the box on the spot in the middle of the store and I paid with the mobile PoS terminal they carry.
I was in and out in less than five minutes and this was at their very busy Chicago Michigan Avenue store. Maybe they’re that efficient because it is busy but like most Apple Store experiences I’ve had it was very fast and efficient - they didn’t get in the way of me spending my money, that’s for sure.
This is closer to my experience around late 2019. (Toronto Ontario Canada, at the time.)
Went in, saw someone on staff fixing up a display unit, asked if I could buy an S5 apple watch, he asked if I had any questions, I said none, tapped card on the mobile POS thing, and then in maybe 10 minutes, someone else came out, apologized for the wait, and handed me my box.
It's possible it's changed over covid though. Makes sense they would want the in-store experience to be more white-glove if they were seeing less foot traffic.
I’ve bought a few items in store. An iPad. Went in told them what I wanted. They went got it. Came out and asked if I want to know anything else about it or need help. Said no. Asked if I wanted apple care. I said yes. They added it to the cart. Gave me a 30s overview of what I can do with apple care. Paid. Left.
If you let the people in the store talk they will talk and try upset. Just politely say no.
> if I didn't have an appointment, it would take half an hour or so to get somebody over.
It probably goes a long way to explain things if you know that Watch launched while Ahrendts was SVP of Retail at Apple. She came from Burberry, a luxury fashion retailer, and clearly had a vision for Apple Stores that was not compatible with the high throughput & demand they regularly get.
"I've tried to decorate it nicely to keep the inmates happy, but there's very little one can do. I never go in there now myself. If ever I am tempted, which these days I rarely am, I simply look at the sign written over the door and shy away."
"That one?" said Fenchurch, pointing, rather puzzled, at a blue plaque with some instructions written on it.
"Yes. They are the words that finally turned me into the hermit I have now become. It was quite sudden. I saw them, and I knew what I had to do."
The sign said:
Hold stick near centre of its length. Moisten pointed end in mouth. Insert in tooth space, blunt end next to gum. Use gentle in-out motion.
"It seemed to me," said Wonko the Sane, "that any civilization that had so far lost its head as to need to include a set of detailed instructions for use in a packet of toothpicks, was no longer a civilization in which I could live and stay sane."
— Douglas Adams, So Long and Thanks for All The Fish, Pan Books (1984)
This is what the average person likes about Apple. This is why the company is worth so much money. The facade of exclusivity and perfection. Clean, white rooms with clean, smiling staff and shiny, perfect products.
They're just phones, they're just laptops. But no, we get "what's a computer?" hurr durr.
The giant reason to do this with the headset in particular is that getting it wrong means a literally painful and/or nauseous experience. Meta is willing to let that happen with its $300 headsets mostly bought as gifts for children, but the bar is a lot higher for a $3500 device and Apple is already acutely aware of the blowback from "you're holding it wrong"-type scenarios.
I think this is a valid reason, and hopefully the driving factor.
On the other hand, Apple certainly seems to bank on making their devices as exclusive an experience as possible. They sell a huge amount, but they want the customer to feel like they are part of an elite group. This will heighten the artificial sense of scarcity.
> Apple is already acutely aware of the blowback from "you're holding it wrong"-type scenarios.
And the funny thing about what the legions of Apple faithful who were willing to pretzel themselves into contortions defending that.
(For a more reason, mention Batterygate and watch them come out and tell you how you just don't understand, Apple was absolutely doing you a favor, somehow.)
(Just like when they quoted me $900 to fix faulty charging on a MacBook, device worked perfectly, battery was healthy, just could not be charged. "Perhaps we should talk about getting you into a new Mac instead...?")
This sounds to me like the issue of when technical people call Tech Support with an advanced problem and the agent forces them to first check their monitor is on and reset.
It's frustrating, sure, but look at if from the other side: 99% of the people they deal with are completely incapable, and 90% of their problems ARE solved by a simple reboot.
Apple/iPhone is the ubiquitous phone for everyone from CTOs to grandma's.
The in store experience is optimized to make sure a person that has been stuck in a cave for 30 years and can walk out with a device optimized for their needs.
I bet they think that people like you will just buy online and choose in store pickup...
I normally order online for collection and have never had an issue there - most I've waited for collection is about 5 minutes during peak times when the store was absolutely rammed with people (Oxford Street, London, a Friday lunchtime.)
But I did once visit a store with someone wanting to buy a Watch and there was no forced sitting through any fitting or explanations. Just some questions about which Watch, if they already had a phone to connect it to, etc., and we were in and out of the store in under 20 minutes (Covent Garden, London, a Saturday afternoon, which is reasonably but not terrifyingly busy.)
I too find the it patronizing to shop in-store – it seems the staff are trained to assume everyone has less knowledge of the products than they do – this might work in other consumer retail environments but not when you're selling "Pro" level products. The tone and efficiency of the retail experience is much better at a store like Adorama or B&H (NYC pro photo/video shops). Not to mention the irritating processes and many touchpoints of reaching the right person in an Apple store
99% of their target audience does not live in Silicon Valley.
Go to LA for example and you'll find creative professionals that need "pro" level gear but appreciate the white-glove Apple service of showing them around and answering questions for a high end purchase.
Slight tangent to your tangent, but, after a poor experience last week, I'm really disappointed in how Apple handles specifically support in their stores.
Historically, I've been able to just throw in a few little bits of "yup, I know how that works" so that their techs realize that I know what I'm talking about and let up with the patronizing assumptions about what I do and don't know. However, this time, when dealing with a newly-present heat issue during charging after that very store replaced the battery in the phone (so both a safety issue and one that would be warranty if it could be determined that it was caused by the repair), the tech just kept repeating that there was no way that their work could've caused it and going "these phones don't have a fan to cool them like our laptops". No matter what I said, I couldn't get them to have an actual discussion with me, so now I'm stuck waiting for a call from their safety support team since it's a heat issue.
Hopefully I can get somewhere with the phone support people, but it's really disappointing that they don't train their techs in the stores to feel out what a customer knows or at least drop some of the "oh the user doesn't know anything" if customers are showing that they do, in fact, know things.
A few years ago I ended up having 4 visits to get my MBP fixed. They replaced the SSD 3 times (this was the last model before soldered disks). It was still having IO problems (file system corruption) even after fresh OS installs. It would only happen under heavy load. After the 3rd time, I got a decent genius - I asked him what the likelihood of having 3 bad SSDs in a row was, and maybe they should replace the logic board? He said “have you seen the new iPhone? Just go over there and have a look at it while I run a test” - I came back “I’ve reproduced the problem wink”. He knew the checklists needed appeasing, and cheated to get the desired outcome. Still, shouldn’t have taken that many visits.
Then I had a problem with the keyboard replacement program. They agreed to replace it under their extended warranty, due to the known issues with them. Posted the laptop off. Got an email 2 days later with a blurred image “the logic board shows signs of water damage”. I had a choice. Replace the logic board at my own cost (>£1000), or return the device unrepaired. They were the ones that had previously opened the machine & replaced the logic board! The machine operated permanently in clamshell mode, vertically - there’s simply no way any moisture could have got into it. I just wanted the keyboard replacing. Very frustrating. I ended up buying the parts & doing the repair myself.
> Hopefully I can get somewhere with the phone support people, but it's really disappointing that they don't train their techs in the stores to feel out what a customer knows or at least drop some of the "oh the user doesn't know anything" if customers are showing that they do, in fact, know things.
I think they have homogenized support to treat each user as equally non-technical, it's by design. Apple is like a sect, they need to have a strong grip on their users.
I worked Apple Retail many many moons ago. The senior manager once told me (manager -> senior manager -> store leader)
“Your job is not to sell products, we could put all this inventory out there on a pallet with a credit card swiper and sell all of them. Your job is to sell attachments, primarily Apple Care”.
Seriously, sales volume was a footnote. You are entirely judged on your attach rate for whatever it is corporate/your market is pushing, they start you part time and the only way up is to attach attach attach. No one wants to “just sell you a phone” because they know you’ll never get Apple Care and for every one of you they need to sell 4 other people on AC to get their numbers back up.
Another fun note: At the time Apple Store revenue $/sq ft beat out jewelry stores.
Great gig as a high school kid, made decent cash and a bunch of people used their tuition assistance. A large number of their employees though are what I call “retail lifers”, 25-30 year olds who are way in debt from a degree that didn’t work out or washed out of the corporate world and landed back in retail. They really don’t like younger employees who are actually going somewhere/realize it’s a temporary gig for kids and not a real career. Lots of alcoholism and drug abuse in that group.
If that's still the case, I can imagine why they'd want a customer who knows exactly what they want to walk to the store next door to get the item elsewhere.
A customer who already knows exactly what configuration they want is probably going to be hard to sell AppleCare to.
The Genius Bar also takes forever to get appointments at now compared to how it was. I think they maintained close to the same number of retail locations as their customer base exploded, which probably works out better economically but is far less convenient.
Try buying a Mac in 1992. First you have to find a reseller. Then, they may think you're not seriously looking and ignore you. Some resellers are only by appointment. If you do look like you have money, they pick an option for you (Classic, LC, IIsi, IIci) and try to keep you in your lane. They upsell you a little on software and things like Kensington locks. Then you get to order it and it arrives a couple months later.
A couple years ago I wanted an item in-stock at the Apple store but the soonest 'pickup appointment' they could give me was a few days out. What's worse is they have you choose a specific 15-minute window. That's not very customer friendly.
They seem to inject additional people into their processes, for reasons I can't discern but I'm sure exist.
For example, even buying something as simple as an Airtag means waiting for a random employee to be free, who then gets one for you, only to then wait for another different employee to be free to allow you to pay for it. Maybe that's just about theft prevention?
My one "Genius Bar" experience (recently) in Munich was really crappy - told to check in, then told to wait by a table where I was ignored; when I re-approached someone, told to wait somewhere else... and watching the flow of things, it became very apparent that my 'appointment' had no value - I was helped in a queue after people who'd just walked in.
Most non computer purchases like AirTags can be self serve. You grab a box off the shelf, scan it with the app, Apple Pay and walk out. No person necessary. Works on everything without a unique serial.
Even when the product you want is out on a shelf, it’s annoying that there’s no line to get in to pay for it. If you need help, you just have to chase someone down. The whole experience feels chaotic and contrarian.
I recently had exactly the opposite experience - I went into an Apple Store (in the UK) wanting to buy a pencil and case for an iPad mini. The whole experience took less than 10 minutes, including trying out multiple case suggestions based on my preferences.
I guess though that this does apply to accessories rather than one of their main product lineups though - although I have heard similar things from friends purchasing products at the same store. Perhaps it heavily depends on which store you go to?
I don't have an Apple Store in my country, but last time I bought Watch in Tokyo and an iPhone in NYC, I told them I know exactly what I want and the transaction was super quick.
In NYC I was even impressed by it, because I just talked to the sales rep for the tiniest bit and a colleague came over and inconspicuously handed her a box with the phone mid-walk. I haven't noticed how she (the sales rep) signaled for it. It almost felt like buying drugs.
Just order the item you want for store pickup before you leave and it’s usually ready by the time you get there. That’s my experience and it’s quite literally in-n-out.
My last experience at a busy Apple Store was walking in, finding the iPod home I wanted to buy, scanning the UPC and serial code with my Apple Store app on my phone and clicking purchase then walking out without hassle or having to talk to a single person.
This wont happen if you want to buy a phone or MacBook, but with accessories and things you can self-checkout, it’s pretty seamless.
I’ll be honest, I’m one of the people that needs instructions for Apple products. I’ve been buying them online — each time becoming frustrated with the lack of instructions and the assumed knowledge necessary to use them.
Oh, you didn’t know that there’s actually two different places to swipe down at the top of the phone? Everyone knows about that, you idiot!
I don't buy Apple stuff so don't know anything about Apple stores -- but I've encountered it in other stores (usually ones that fancy themselves "high end" in some way).
It drive me crazy. It's bad enough to have to talk to a salesman when I wasn't seeking one, it's even worse when I tell that salesperson that I'm ready to buy something specific and then they waste both of our time trying to do anything other than take my money and give me the thing.
Those are stores I'm unlikely to return to.
This is different than when I want a salesperson to explain things to me. In that case, yes, please shower me with attention as long as they're one of the ones that are actually helpful rather than just constantly trying to sell.
My watch buying experience was really straightforward. I knew which watch I wanted, and which band - really the only thing I needed to be sure of was the band size (as I’d not worn one before). I’d say the whole thing took about 10 minutes.
This is anecdotal of course. Your experience is yours. Sorry you went through that. My experiences have all been pretty smooth.
As for the Vision Pro, I think we’re dealing with a very different kind of product. They want everyone to have a positive experience, and this is the kind of thing no one has used even if you’ve used VR headsets, you’ve not used the product they created. They want to make sure you’re not getting stuck on fit or comfort.
Are these U.S. Apple stores? I’ve had a dozen or so purchases over the last few years at several Apple stores in the Bay Area and Los Angeles area and have never experienced anything remotely like this. Sometimes I’ve bought online and done in store pickup, other times I’ve just asked the employee for the exact item I wanted, and I’ve never experienced the slightest roadblock to an extremely fast checkout process. I would be surprised if this isn’t a very deliberately planned in-store experience, so I gotta wonder if it’s a regional thing or something.
Not been my experience when I’ve bought apple watches. Product walk through were always optional that store employees were happy to offer, I always skipped them, brought the watch and was on my way.
While my dad shopped for one for my sister I had time to drink a coffee, find a Mother’s Day gift of chocolates, and do some work (the Apple Store outside Apple Park has all this).
I've been to my local Apple Store once, and it was a great experience. I was there to trade-in two M1 Macbook Air's. No associate was available however I got one after 5 minutes and they very quickly completed the trade-ins without any questions whatsoever, and wished me a great day. No attempt to sell/upsell me a product (I told them at the beginning I was going to purchase online) and they were very friendly.
I recently went in to do an exchange of a band I bought bundled with a watch and had to help the person helping me because their system didn’t understand it was a bundle and therefore had to be rung up differently. Same deal with them treating me like an 80 year old (I’m mid-20s). It’s almost like they need to be trained to recognize a person who doesn’t need a ton of support in their purchase. I would do better with self-checkout honestly.
I find the store purchasing experience to be frustrating as well, but if you order online and it's in stock, every Apple store I've lived near will deliver it to you door in 2-4 hours.
If you want to play with a product: go to the store, interact with it, and if you like it order it on your phone while you're there. It will be home not long after you are.
Being forced into an appointment when you're ready to pay and know exactly what you want doesn't sound like a run-of-the-mill shopping chore.
It oddly resembles a visit to a medical clinic (that is government subsidized, and accordingly fettered with bureaucratic rules that prevent you from just ordering the procedure you want).
Right lol this is also my experience. Do you need help setting it up? No thank you. Bye! I've never felt patronized at the Apple store, honestly it's the one electronics store where I feel like the staff kind of know what they're doing and are hovering around tentatively ready to help me actually purchase the thing.
Absolutely bizarre. My experience in Toronto buying an Apple Watch on an extremely busy day was 5-10min in and out and there was no attempt to ‘fit’ me.
Told them what they wanted, they went back and got it, they brought a POS so I could pay, I was easily out of there in 10min.
Never had any issues like this whatsoever in more than a decade of shopping at these stores?
Buying online with in-store pickup is the best way to go these days. You can take your time evaluating which options you want int the comfort of your own home, and then be in and out of the store pretty quickly without worrying about delivery.
That's what I did when I got my last phone, and will do that on every subsequent purchase.
You can use the online Apple Store then either have it delivered or pickup in person.
Or purchase from the hundreds of third party resellers who also sell them.
There are many people especially with the Apple Watch who aren't experts at technology and so having personalised service makes sense for them. And for you there are obviously many other options.
I keep reading stories about experiences like yours, but no, never experienced that myself.
But then, it might be about my buying habits: the cheapest thing which suits my needs, and only when I actually need it rather than as soon as it comes out, so I'm almost never there at the sales peak for whatever it is I'm getting.
> but I was forced to sit through an entire "fitting" with patronising explanation
I have purchased several Apple Watches, iPhones, and other devices and not once have I ever been forced to sit through anything other than an employee going to the back to get what I purchased.
It seems they made the experience for the people they show in their commercials (some "tech unconcerned happy people" who knows just barely enough to pick the Apple product, has "good vibes mandolin music" all over them and somehow makes 300k/yr)
This has not been my experience at all. I walk in (or make an appt beforehand for the sake of convenience), tell the what I want, plop down my credit card, and I am out of there in 20 minutes tops. Super smooth, professional experience.
Buy it online via the app and designate the store as a pick-up. You will barely have to speak with anyone. Stores are busy, that’s just how it is. I’ve bought all the products you mentioned and didn’t have to deal with any “help” or delay.
Every time I went to am Apple Store, I came in, said what I wanted, they brought it to me, I paid and then I left. 5min max, and as recently as a month ago. I'll guess you've been unlucky or your particular store is bad?
Generally, I buy the phones online and schedule pick up at the store. I go to the store for my appointment and ask the staff to apply the screen protector. It is a completely smooth and consistent experience.
It would be interesting if they tried to further emulate the famous behavior of luxury brands like Rolex, which may not deign to sell you anything if you just ask. Just recreate that aura for the mass consumer.
It sounds like Apple is deeply upset that companies like Ferrari get to invite people to buy their products while theirs are just mass-produced, made in China consumables that anyone can buy.
I've felt the opposite. The last two purchases I walked in and bought exactly what I wanted on impulse because it was so easy. An iphone upgrade and a battery thereafter.
Apple looks like a tech company, but it's really a luxury goods company. When you consider it through this lens the magic falls away and it's just selling status.
Everything I went to buy something. I told them I want to get X so they sat me down for a few minutes then I checked out for everything without explanation of the product.
Sounds like you want a self-checkout aisle for Apple Store products but its really just "IT Pro Line" or something, someone just charges you for what you want.
I personally have had the experience of having to talk to two people (with a third person required to fetch the product from the back room) at an Apple store in Toronto. You stand there waiting on the side for 10 minutes while the gopher finishes with a couple of other customers.
two months ago i walked in with a macbook pro spec i wanted, they confirmed they had one in stock. We did the payment dance and i walked out. Total time in store ~5m.
The Apple store experience is meant to be initializing. It's the mindset that they want their users to be in, otherwise you're not a typical Apple user.
If you know just what you want you could a) buy online or b) buy it from any other retailer. The Apple Store is for people who want to speak to apple staff
Same for me, I honestly think people are just trying to find things to complain about. I've shopped in the Apple store many times and it's been quick and easy, no hassling by the employees.
maybe the goal isnt only to sell product but also to make the customer think apple is smart and the customer needs them indefinitely to navigate the smartphone world. I wonder how their morning genius briefings go and what their plan is when a customer approaches
> it would take half an hour or so to get somebody over
That's only the case for genius bar appointments or an extended consultation when they're super busy or something. If you just want to buy a phone you've already decided on, you ask the nearest person and they grab it and you pay for it.
It sounds like there was maybe just a miscommunication in your case. There is no trend here.
I've known multiple people, and attended with one, who walked in, picked up the watch, and left in a few minutes total. That's also how I bought a laptop once (the rest online).
Apple stores are often willing to spend enormous amounts of time with you if you ask for help, but I've never seen them stay in your way when you say "no" and that you're ready to pay and leave.
(Obviously it can happen, but they're some of the most-standardized tech stores out there. If it were A Thing™, it would be everywhere.)
Yep. There's often people there whose job is to sell without an appointment. At my local stores they normally stand next to the accessories, where you can just grab stuff from the shelf.
But you can ask them to grab a specific model of iPhone, iMac, etc, for you if you don't need information.
I'm very confused by Apple's strategy. As an owner of the original HTC Vive headset, its word-of-mouth power was off the charts. It was a blast at parties, and many of my friends bought their own $700+ devices after trying it.
Here's what won them over:
- Being able to try it themselves with little preparation ("put this on your head, tighten it here, and click these buttons on the controller"). You could even use it over glasses.
- Games that you play by grabbing things with your hands. The heavy hitters are Beat Saber and Half-Life: Alyx, but Climbey and UltraWings also got fans, and all the combat games where you punch cartoons or reload guns realistically.
(seriously, if you've never tried, the jump from mouse+keyboard to hand tracking is like going from arrow keys to mouse+keyboard)
Meanwhile, here's what Apple seems to be doing:
- Customized accessories, to the point that you need a face-scan and to send them your glasses prescriptions.
- Eyetracking and gesture-only interactions. I haven't seen a single demo where somebody picks a virtual object up.
How is that going to work? Do they expect to make up for all the lost word-of-mouth with marketing campaigns? Also, did they give up on VR games?
it's a totally different model of generating demand. They don't need marketing, because they have a completely captive audience of loyal apple fans who will easily saturate the first year (or even two years) of supply for this product.
They are following Palmer Luckey's "Make people want it first model". Being supply limited, traditional marketing would only generate demand they can't satisfy. What they actually have to do is make sure every person who gets one has the most perfect experience possible.
> What they actually have to do is make sure every person who gets one has the most perfect experience possible.
This is particularly important when it comes to a VR headset, where it's very easy for bad initial experiences to literally physically condition the user into getting sick every time they put on a VR headset.
Stepping the most diehard fans through how to metaphorically "hold it right" also gives them a built-in backstop of support when it comes to preventing those issues with future consumers once they eventually hit the point of proper mass market production.
>What they actually have to do is make sure every person who gets one has the most perfect experience possible.
But they can't have the most perfect experience if the software isn't there. And there won't be enough software that actually utilises the 3D features until a sufficient number of developers get access to the device.
So I agree that the strategy can work but it can also be overstretched. If expensive devices become obsolete before they become useful, and if developers write this off as some sort of forever niche then momentum will die.
My experience of the same has been the opposite. Friends I showed it to telling me "interesting" then moving on and never mentioning it again. And I felt the same. It went to storage less than a month after I received it.
Same here. I organized a trip to a VR center for the entire team at work.
Everybody had fun, but more like going to a theme park. Nobody ever talked about it again or bought one, just zero interest. And these are tech people.
I had a blast showing my Rift CV1 to friends, but only one person I showed it off to got a VR headset, and both mine and his seem to be gathering dust at the moment.
It seems to me that Apple is very worried about their device getting slotted into the “fun expensive limited use toy” niche.
I bet they need time to ramp up their manufacturing. In the meantime - they can either artificially restrict the purchase of these things (what they are doing now), or have scalpers camp outside the stores and resell for 2-3x what apple are selling them for.
If they can actually deliver on their promises - they will fucking sweep the VR market. Current VR headsets blow chunks. If the meta quest cost 10$ - people would still not use it for normal things, because it unpleasant to interact with.
Hard disagree. Current headsets are perfectly fine for the well established use-cases like gaming and stereo/3D video. The problem is, as always, going to be shoehorning real features into a goofy form-factor. We've been down this avenue before with Hololens and it was very clear that enterprise customers aren't really interested in developing bespoke AR workflows. Even with perfect passthrough vision there wasn't any tangible benefit to the tech outside very narrow military applications (and who knows where those contracts went).
So now we're here. If Apple delivers on their promise of a very nice Oculus Quest sorta thing with iPhone apps and AppleTV+, I can't imagine people using it more than their Oculus Quest, iPhone or AppleTV.
It doesn’t sound like a gaming play, rather a productivity/media consumption play.
I really wish Meta or someone else would focus on fitness more. Augmented fitness (not normal gaming) seems to be an area ripe for viral adoption. Without any haptic feedback, VisionPro is less suitable than the Quest.
I don't think this designed to sell in numbers, it exists as a placeholder for them, in case m$ or Pico start drawing too much attention, the old 'what we have is better, you just can't have it yet' routine. I will be interested to see what they spend on content and how they approach webXR, I'm not sure a market for walled garden devices in 2024 will be there, hopefully not :)
They had many WWDC sessions covering 3D objects especially with the Unity integration [1] and their Reality Composer Pro [2] tool. Both were covered during the keynote. And if you look on Youtube there are countless videos of third party developers developing 3D apps.
It's just that they are positioning the device as a spatial computer i.e. something you use to get real work done. And right now for 99% of people that involves 2D windows.
> seriously, if you've never tried, the jump from mouse+keyboard to hand tracking is like going from arrow keys to mouse+keyboard
Totally different experience here. It's interesting but the mouse still blows away anything VR has offered thus far. Games like Beat Saber /are/ a ton of fun and cool input method but but the novelty wears off fast. A majority of my friend group all bought VR headsets together and after 1-2 months of playing (often together) our usage has fallen off a cliff. I can't remember the last time I picked up my headset and I even bought lenses a couple months ago to try and reinvigorate my interest (I wear glasses/contacts but glasses always fog so I'd have to put in my contacts to play which was an annoying barrier) but I literally played it 1-2 more times before getting bored and moving on.
Current VR headsets are only good for gaming (yes, even the Meta Pro, it's resolution is joke for real productivity) and I have a limited interest in that method of gaming. I still play my Xbox, I still play games on my computer, I still play games on my phone but VR gaming isn't as interesting to me. It's novel but it wears off and the motion sickness is really annoying in certain types of games. All that coupled with absolute shit hand tracking (it's cool when it works but it fails too often), lackluster controllers (I can only take my sabers going wild when that's not what my hands are doing so many times), and poor graphics makes my headset a toy and not a particular good one.
We will see if Apple is able to improve on what's currently available and their track record has me hoping they succeed. Their vision, no pun intended, of AR/VR is much more in line with what I have been dreaming of for decades.
Hmm. Are you aware that mobile gaming revenue is larger than console and PC and that the majority of mobile gaming revenue comes from iOS (iPad and iPhone)?
>> I haven't seen a single demo where somebody picks a virtual object up.
Why do I need to do that? It’s a great demo but it’s not something I need to be able to do day to day. And that seems to be the strategy from Apple. Make it a useful device for daily tasks rather than a gaming specific device or a device for doing something “new”. If you’re paying $3500 it needs to be immediately useful.
Think about it, you’re trying to tell me Vive is great and their marketing strategy (word of mouth) was a huge success…I have never seen one in the wild and Occulus seems to be much more popular. In other words their strategy hasn’t worked so probably not a great idea for Apple to copy it.
I don't think they expect to sell many of these. I don't think this is some hype campaign, I think they just think/know the market for this is very limited.
"Why isn't Apple approaching their device in the same way this other company approached their device? A device which, incidentally, nobody really cares about anymore after some initial."
Apple doesn't want their market to be the same as the market for the HTC Vive, which isn't exactly a successful product (at least by Apple standards). They also don't want the market to be defined by their competitors, so they're approaching the market in a very different way. An example of this is how, in the keynote where they announced their new VR headset, they didn't say the words "Virtual Reality" once.
One area of friction that hasn’t been mentioned but is out of Apples control is that in some states like MA prescription eyewear requires a current, within one year, prescription.
After decades of hearing about Apple only being kept afloat by their indoctrinated, rabid fan base (whose numbers curiously appeared to grow exponentially with each passing year), Apple “always” making sales only by ad spots and not word of mouth is certainly a hot take.
Conversely the fact that you need special fit lenses and a store appointment means its going to be hard to test out and hard to buy. You're probably not going to be able to wander past the Apple store in the mall and take a quick peek in and play with the Vision Pro like you can with their other products like the iPad. Nor will testing your friend's necessarily be a good experience. Plus even in the U.S Apple Store's aren't that common requiring a multi-hour drive to get to in some places.
> Plus even in the U.S Apple Store's aren't that common
There are 270+ Apple stores in the US, I don't have the figures to hand but an overwhelming percentage of the country's actual population live within an hour of an Apple store. They are common, frankly.
I'm not defending the decision to require a store visit here, but lets not paint a picture of Apple store availability that doesn't exist. The number of people with disposable income in the US to purchase a 3500 dollar headset and actually want to buy one who aren't living under an hour from an Apple store is likely a very small list.
Good point. Telling how xR device good is one of the most difficult thing for consumer market. Trying is the only way but it's annoying to setup. Let's see how Apple solves this.
The big win I think will be the App Store rather than just the Apple Store. the App Store will provide reducing the need to take the headset off to use general apps.
When you use an oculus, if you need to do something like reply to a text, check an email or reply to someone on social media, you have to take off your headset or kill your current task and switch to virtual desktop.
Having all your iOS apps on it, and being able to multitask means people won’t be taking off their headset as often and they’ll not have to consider dedicated VR time.
The reasons I would not like to have one of these devices ;
* Apple's closed moat
* App store lock-in
* 'DLC' model whereby not a single thing you do on this $3,500 device will be free - and no matter what app you choose, Apple takes 30% of whatever revenue stream that app wants...
* The piss-poor apple fix-service market, and their shitty designs of the iphone which break so fn easily that VCs (YC+) have had to invest in cottage industry of phone repairs
I've had iphones since the first day of launch... and while I prefer them over android, I still hate ios ecosystem.
The infra-mechanics of it are awesome, but compared to the smarmy and condescending greedy Apple, i still hate ios.
Having replied to a text, checked my emails and responded to people on HN all from my first-gen Oculus Quest, I'm not really sure what you're talking about here. Do you not find a web browser sufficient for those tasks? Is there something inherent to the Quest ecosystem that should be stopping me here?
> The big win I think will be the App Store rather than just the Apple Store
It won't be using the app store, though. It's using a brand-new store, built from scratch. No iOS apps will be there unless the authors rewrite them to be compatible with visionOS.
I’m squarely in the target market for the Meta Quest, but the fact I have no way of trying one before I buy, even just for a few minutes, is my main blocker for getting one.
This is particularly important for a) new product categories where customers aren’t yet sure they want/need it, b) products that “fit”, or don’t, and c) expensive entertainment products. These headsets are all three, so it’s really important.
I think the friction can come across to some customers as good service, and help launch a category.
The Apple Watch was initially sold at fitting appointments in store, and I think that was important in establishing it as a normal thing to wear and even a fashionable thing to wear in some cases, and helped cement the product in the mainstream.
Tailored suits is another case where there’s a premium price, premium service, but a lot of friction. It’s not always bad.
They’re also probably supply constrained enough that the friction doesn’t matter for the first version or two.
There used to be a Microsoft store in the big mall near me. It turned into a babysitting service for parents who dropped their kids off to play with the Xbox.
There's a non-trivial portion of population that is familiar with the concept of having products fit to them personally: made-to-order uniforms, glasses, other sorts of assistive products.
I find it surprising that this is less common than it was in the past, and that people are more willing to put up with something that’s a subpar fit for them. One tech example that would benefit from custom fit are in-ear headphones. It would make sure that product is a perfect fit for every customer every time, rather than roughly every single customer having to put up with a suboptimal fit and poor comfort.
This product has opened my eyes to "AR" glasses in general, but I think its way overkill for what I want to do.. My use case is being able to code with a giant screen anywhere (plane, hotel room, etc). I just want a few giant editor windows and terminals open. I don't care about gaming, AR gimmicks, etc.
From what I understand, there are a number of sub $500 options. (xreal air, rokud air, TCL NXTWEAR, etc). However they all get very mixed reviews. I wish there was a retailer that had demo units, as this is something I'd very much like to try before I buy.
Text editing is actually a harder problem than gaming. For gaming you can very well do with relatively low resolution and big bright objects to shoot at. But displaying clear text requires way higher resolution.
I tried Pico 4 headset, and gaming-wise it is fine, you almost forget you are not in your room anymore, but run a browser, and eyes start bleeding out from horrible font rendering. It is somewhat better on Quest 2, but still too bad.
I also tried replacing my monitors with a Quest 2. While the idea of not needing space for monitors and have your setup anywhere with you is cool, the resolution just wasn't there yet.
It's true that the text isn't great out of the box on the current batch of 1080p versions. Personally, I just stick the zoom level to 110% / 120% and then find it fine to use though.
Yeah I think it's something people don't consider about resolution. I want to upgrade to a newer e-ink Kindle for CJK characters. On the opposite end, the Steam Deck and Nintendo Switch have a 7" screen is only 720p and it's fine for gaming.
> My use case is being able to code with a giant screen anywhere
I've tried this on other platforms. The device gets heavy and your eyes get hot and sweaty, and dealing with an extension cord running from your head to a battery pack just adds insult to the inconvenience. It's not fun and it was not a major boost to productivity.
Plus.. for $3,500 I can just buy quite a few nice monitors.
I think the factor you're missing is that even the Vision Pro is still only about hitting the bare minimum to be able to comfortably do what you're looking for in terms of specs (and maybe not even then in terms of weight). It's 'overkill' in terms of pricing, but only because we're still years if not decades away from the tech advances needed for true standalone AR glasses.
While true... That doesn't mean it will actually be any good at what it's trying to do. VR/AR is truly at the edge of our current technological abilities - Apple can have done everything to the best standard possible and still not be good enough here.
So what about this product opened your eyes that the previous 15 years of VR/AR did not? Just Apple's marketing power? Or is there something specific about this device that made it click for you?
I had always looked at things like Oculus as a "gaming" accessory. And I demoed Google Glass about 10 years ago, and it didn't present a virtual screen.
When seeing the Apple goggles, it clicked for me that this was basically a mac environment, and I started thinking how amazing it would be to run terminals in it, then I started googling for any options that were available now..
1. Eye tracking for interaction vs hand tracking. If the UX works out, the amount of precision that can be reached is just far higher with less effort - just seems to be an easier technical problem.
2. Resolution and lensing. Most VR headsets have fairly low quality fresnel lenses which cause distortion near the edges (basically - if you want to see something in good detail, you have to tilt your whole head to look at it), and in general the resolution is not good enough to see things that are 'far away' (those who play games like DCS have to use the 'binoculars' feature with headsets to accurately see targets). With a device like an HP Reverb, the resolution is probably close to good enough, the lensing is not - the Meta Quest Pro has a good enough lens, but not resolution. I'd expect the lensing on the Apple device to be top of market, and we know the resolution is ~2.5x more dense than the Meta Quest Pro - which should be closer to going from SD to HD TV rather than HD to 4k. Essentially, if you try to code on a Meta Quest Pro, the text looks a bit blurry. With the Vision Pro, it won't.
3. Custom face cushion + prescription lenses. Comfort is everything with these devices and nothing is worse than a headset putting pressure in the wrong places. It'll cost much more, but be totally worth it.
4. People claim common nausea when using VR. I've felt it too, but only on certain headsets. My money is other companies know what causes folks to feel bad, but have had to make technical tradeoffs which mean that nausea remains a problem. I'd put money on Apple having done serious research into 'what causes nausea when using headsets' which causes this to minimised on their headsets.
5. Software stack and usability. VR stacks are typically fairly clunky, usually Android derived, usually behaving a bit like a dodgy phone. iOS/MacOS are usually not most feature-ful, but a core usually works very very well. Will likely push bar a lot higher, change the shape of industry (e.g. samsungs are so good because of the iPhone competition).
Basically, having used some of these devices - the complaints I have with these right now, are the same things that Apple has real, technical solutions for. And the price isn't even _that_ high compared to other players in the market. Pimax Crystal is $1600 for what right now is a fairly buggy user experience. Their vapourware Pimax 12k is listed as starting at $2400 for the most basic model, though it's been in that state for well over a year.
Apple’s thesis seems to be that it is not overkill — that, in fact, every other option is significantly underkill, and that’s why you don’t use them despite knowing they exist.
I have the xreal airs. I’m very happy with them as an “on-the go” screen or “I don’t have my desk”, but I certainly prefer my desk setup (triple monitor).
Try a few first, not everyone's eyes can manage long exposure to have a screen strapped to it. Kids under 11 are generally not allowed to use it for that reason
It's also worth noting that this is dependent on model. E.g. I can handle an HP Reverb G2 indefinitely, but a Meta Quest Pro for only about 30 minutes before I feel ill.
The alternatives have the whole unit in the headset in the front, which makes it very warm, sweaty and heavy for the neck - they're also nowhere near the required resolution for comfortably reading text in AR/VR, something that Apple seems to have solved.
Closest thing I can think of would be Big Screen Beyond, which I believe will support 3DOF mode without trackers at some point (you should confirm this), and according to YouTuber “Sadly It’s Bradley” is decent for productivity work.
But actually resolution is extremely important for that kind of work and only the highest resolution headsets available today can actually work well for that.
Do we have any indication whether it’s going to be responsive and fast enough for AR in sports?
Maybe it’s a solution looking for a problem, but the best use of AR has always seemed to be for activities that require full attention. Flying a plane, driving a car, riding a bike, etc.
yes exactly - so many options with so many games and apps and social media related experiences and all I (and im sure many others) want is a solution to “how can i travel or be in a hotel and open vi/emacs/terminal and code as comfortably as with a huge monitor(s) home setup that’s impractical to haul around”. Even hauling around 16” laptops with a solid keyboard is a pain and can’t compete with a huge monitor(s) at home setup
Even if they came to my house to fit me with it I wouldn't buy it. What problem is it solving for someone other than Apple? We've been seeing this AR pipe-dream for 10+ years and it hasn't caught on. Not because the technology was bad, but because people just don't want it.
What Apple is missing here is that people wanted the iPhone (a phone with an iPod built in) for years before it was even officially announced as under development. It succeeded because the market invented it, not because Apple are geniuses who showed us we needed it.
I may be an old man, but what I want is the opposite of immersive technology. Put a computer on my face? Are you kidding? The one in my pocket already feels increasingly parasitic.
Nah, you're not an old man or anything like that. This is just the mainstream present technological scepticism. At some point marvelous technology became so ubiquitous we became blasé about it.
Cynicism, pessimism, and affected jadedness have always been the way people have attempted to sound cool. Nothing new about that part.
Ultimately, the question is whether your path brings you joy.
Can you expand on this comment? What have you seen in the AR market that leads you to believe the comment you are responding to is not accurate?
From many observers, we have seen many AR/VR devices fail over the years. Some spectacularly (like Snap Spectacles), and some seem to be just throwing money into a furnace (like Oculus, which hasn't failed, but even with millions of devices sold doesn't seem to be reaching product market fit for anything outside of niche gaming and fitness).
Yes, the Vision Pro is a different device, but there are orthogonal attempts at this kind of screen sharing experience which also have very niche markets, like Sightful's Spacetop laptop.
I get that the Vision Pro has some product differentiation, such as the App Store, the developer ecosystem (debatable at this point compared to other AR products), and so on - but what exactly are you seeing the market today that will drive this demand for Vision Pro? Where is the evidence that customers want this technology?
People want it, but not in this form factor. Like I've been saying regarding Oculus' products for years: VR/AR isn't a bad idea, but nobody wants to strap a set of heavy, sweaty ski goggles to their face for eight hours a day. Just because the newest models are lighter/more comfortable than the old models doesn't mean they're anywhere near acceptable. I'll be passing on these until they're the size and weight of ordinary glasses.
HN users are generally pretty good at predicting the exact opposite of the future. Every obviously good product like Dropbox is claimed to be useless while every obviously crap product like Mastodon or the Librem phone is hyped up as the future.
AR feels like 3D TV. Mfgs want it badly so they have a 'next big thing' to sell. Otherwise they risk having their premium product line turn into a boring commodity.
I'm more excited for something like Humane's laser projection system or a less-intrusive, deep-learning driven assistant which uses voice and tactile feedback.
I think they are building all this on the hope that they can convince tech addicted kids to strap this stupid ass thing on for many hours per day. I think “on the person” computing devices are reaching their “peak tobacco” moment. Every day more and more people realize how bad it is for your mental and physical health and decide to unplug more and more.
No, objectively the technology and hardware especially are bad. It’s an immature market and the high barriers to entry hinder the progress needed for the market to mature.
It won’t get better without big drives in adoption, adoption won’t happen without big improvements to.. everything. Catch 22
> Not because the technology was bad, but because people just don't want it.
Have you ever used an AR/VR headset for something you generally enjoy (a game, a movie, Google Maps, whatever)?
I ask because my own experience (and the consensus of my network and the critics I read) is that devices like Oculus and the Vive Pro are extraordinarily compelling but overall held back by immature technology. Base stations. Wires. Visible pixels. Low quality video pass through. Stupid controllers you have to hold in your hands.
People see the potential and flashes of what might be, but it's impossible to get beyond the awful user experience.
> What Apple is missing here is that people wanted the iPhone (a phone with an iPod built in) for years before it was even officially announced as under development.
Two thoughts on this:
1) It seems to undermine your point that iPhone launched in 2007 and yet through 2011 failed to come close to outselling iPod in terms of units.
2) The device you are describing -- "a phone with an iPod built in", before the iPhone -- actually did exist. The Motorola ROKR E1, or the "iTunes Phone": it was unveiled in 2005 on stage by Steve Jobs. Motorola did the phone stuff, and Apple did the iPod bit.
It was a dismal failure and was discontinued after roughly a year on the market.
> It succeeded because the market invented it, not because Apple are geniuses who showed us we needed it.
What do you mean by "invented"? Because literally two years before the iPhone launched, the market "invented" a phone with a built-in iPod, manufactured by the leading cell phone manufacturer of the day, in collaboration with Apple, and it failed miserably. Did the market invent that phone?
It's fair to say that Apple is not the first entrant to most market it contributes to, and it's fair to say that they are rarely the progenitors of the technologies their devices rely upon.
What Apple is very good at is deeply understanding when new technologies can be combined or honed to bring them over a threshold of resonance with consumers which drives widespread adoption. It is not enough to simply say "ship a phone with a touch screen' --- folks were doing that for years before iPhone launched. Instead it's about understanding the interplay of latency, brightness, PPI, plural point awareness, manufacturing yields, component costs, and making tradeoffs which pursue a vision which people buy into.
That's why when you said "a phone with an iPod built in" you could have been referring to both iPhone _and_ the ROKR, but the two devices could not be more different: ROKR had a fiddly microSD card for storage. Crummy slow processor and user interface. Stupid tiny keyboard for typing on. WAP internet. Wired transfer speeds slower than high speed USB. Slow java apps. A low resolution TFT LCD display. Only 11 megabytes of onboard memory.
I'm actually fine with the appointment setting, even if some others are bothered by the notion of an involved process. It's sort of like buying a toy anyways, so all the more fun for me to enjoy the steps of checking out.
The thing I would hate, though, is limited availability with no real way of securing a spot. Nothing more annoying than trying to find any appointment spot available and praying that the units aren't sold out. It seems that their production "numbers" are capped by supply chain difficulties, rather than raw demand. But then again, it's $3500, so maybe I won't have any trouble grabbing a headset.
"Gurman says Apple will ensure that the Vision Pro fits the wearer and also outfit the device with prescription lens inserts if needed"
I wear prescription glasses and have gone from single vision to progressive lenses that are stupid expensive. Worse, my prescription changes every visit to the optometrist. How sensitive is the headset's performance to my prescription, how expensive would replacement lenses be, and how difficult would they be to change out? Could I do this myself by ordering updated lenses based on my prescription or would I have to take the headset in?
But the screen is always 2” away. As you look from things that are drawn as if they are near or far is kind of irrelevant, isn’t it? Your focus depth won’t change because your actual focus depth never changes.
It’s a shame that the eye trackers are not suitable to understand the shape of the eye, so the image could be adapted for it.
I feel you on this topic. I wear glasses. Wearing a really old pair from 20 years back is painful, but I can slip comfortably into a prescription from 6 years ago, I don’t know what your experience is with that, though.
I wish there were more information about this. Should I get an updated Rx and put in a pre-order for lenses? Who knows!?! I’m astigmatic, near sighted I guess, but a close up VR lens doesn’t change focal length at all, so lenses are a must for me.
> Worse, my prescription changes every visit to the optometrist.
FYI, unless your vision is quite bad, this is likely to bilk you and/or your insurance for money. I have slight-to-moderately bad eyesight and had optometrists trying to change my prescription every year as well, to no noticeable effect. I started getting my eyes checked only every few years and then taking away my prescription without purchasing glasses immediately. You can generally gauge how honest your optometrist is by how indignant this makes them.
For some, it might be easier and cheaper to get an Apple Vision Pro-specific prescription and contact lenses than to update the lenses in the device, assuming you're ok with contacts.
> your vision will eventually settle when you hit late 30’s
Eyesight doesn't settle, it continues to deteriorate with age. Lasik also deteriorates with time, normally becoming noticeable about ten years after the surgery. Lasik providers offer "touch ups" as you get older in order to ameliorate this.
I always assumed I'd get LASIK if my vision started to degrade. Then I learned that apparently LASIK can't treat age-related farsightedness: fixing your close vision will mess up your far vision. The only option AFAIU is to treat one eye only, so you have one eye for close vision and one eye for far. That doesn't sound very enticing to me.
LASIK can't be considered until your prescription stabilizes for at least a year or two, so that isn't helpful to someone whose prescription is constantly changing.
Readit News
The whole experience of visiting an Apple store has changed from being something I looked forward to just another shopping chore. The VR headset is a case in point - if I want to be guided through the process, then I will ask for that. Otherwise, just sell me the damn product! I guess maybe I'm just not their target audience any more.
Apples pricing structure is also annoying nowadays too. As soon as one specs out and bumps a laptop, one suddenly finds that they may as well get a different laptop, ie once you bump up a MacBook Air, you may as well just buy a Pro, until all of a sudden your £999 purchase idea has turned into £3000 and a debate about AppleCare.
Ballache.
I've walked into an Apple Store and told the person triaging people walking in, "I know EXACTLY what iPhone I want". They send me to the iPhone area where I have to wait in a queue behind 5 other people who need to be sold the damn iPhone. The customers I'm waiting for are either deliberating between a few different models or have no idea what they should get, so the people working in the store are busy talking to them for much longer than I care to wait.
I wish Apple would add a step to their triage to handle people who walk into the store and say, "I know EXACTLY what I want, _________"
Meanwhile I had the opposite experience in a Google Store recently. I picked a phone case off the shelf in 10s, told the nearest employee I wanted to buy it, and he immediately whipped out a credit card scanner and I bought it right there in 30s. Didn't even need to go to the checkout counter or anything. It probably helps that that store is less crowded than the Apple store, but their training at least seems to involve making the purchasing flow as efficient as possible.
Their pricing structure on basically all of their product lines is absolutely perfect from a capitalism/business perspective. They are so good at getting people to buy more than they need. It's impressive.
Hands down the strangest retail interaction I’ve ever had. Frustrated, I went to the Best Buy literally in the mall’s parking lot and was on my way in under 10 minutes with the watch I wanted. I guess Apple still won here since I bought the product anyhow?
Ah, yes, the Ferrari customer experience. You need to be selected by the manufacturer to be allowed to buy their product. It makes the product feel rare and exclusive, and the customer feel "special", when it's a consumer product made by the same Chinese sweatshop workers that make your other e-waste.
Obligatory Futurama "there might be one left":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uASUHbFEhWY
I will agree that it’s ridiculous for customers to have to wait for an appointment to buy a watch band, which I’ve seen. There were several employees standing around at the time, inexplicably.
The reason this is done is to:
a) limit bad online reviews due to ill fitting headsets or unfamiliarity with the controls
b) to ensure that people looking to buy it have their expectations managed
c) to give it the upscale, prestige feeling of going to a tailor for a fitted suit. Useless theater for a tech product, but Apple loves pageantry.
1) Give explanation to you why you should reconsider
2) Make you fill out a form stating reasons for returning
3) Refund in cash giving you small notes
I just had this exact experience because my phone was irrevocably ruined, so I needed to pick a replacement up the same day.
The Apple Store was a very poor experience with a sales agent I knew more than trying, repeatedly, to explain to me things like backup, Apple Care, etc., etc. I also for some reason had to talk to four different people, and the only one that could actually help me was busy while everyone else in the store was standing around. It should have taken 10 minutes and it took the better part of an hour.
I get home later that day, start to set it up and it’s locked to employees of a bank in Canada. Live support is no help so I take it back, only to find out the serial number did not match that on the box. They had their security guard quietly come stand near me until they figured out what they wanted to do.
The sales guy told me since they can’t prove I stole it they were giving me a different one. I think they knew it was previously returned and realized they got scammed by someone else the first time around.
This time I made sure I could login before I left.
Within the return window the new 16” came out at the same price so I took it in and swapped it for the 16”. They just took it, handed me the new laptop, transferred Apple Care and sent me on my way. It made sense as they didn’t bother to verify the box/device serial number with me. They took my word and processed everything in a matter of minutes.
Apple can remove it of course. It was probably a laptop stolen from the bank or their suppliers, then returned to Apple to whitewash it.
I'm not surprised this happens. What I am surprised about is that Apple apparently sells a returned item to another customer as new. Pretty sure that's not their policy and in most cases illegal. Perhaps they checked the seals (for activating DEP you don't need to open the box at all!) but still this shouldn't happen.
Normally these items go through a cleaning and reimaging process and then end up on the refurb store at a reduced price.
They know the employee is judged on that and is incentivized to make the transaction glide through.
When I last went to an Apple Store to get a new one (while wearing my current Apple Watch) I just said “I know what I want and what I’m doing”.
They handed me the box on the spot in the middle of the store and I paid with the mobile PoS terminal they carry.
I was in and out in less than five minutes and this was at their very busy Chicago Michigan Avenue store. Maybe they’re that efficient because it is busy but like most Apple Store experiences I’ve had it was very fast and efficient - they didn’t get in the way of me spending my money, that’s for sure.
Went in, saw someone on staff fixing up a display unit, asked if I could buy an S5 apple watch, he asked if I had any questions, I said none, tapped card on the mobile POS thing, and then in maybe 10 minutes, someone else came out, apologized for the wait, and handed me my box.
It's possible it's changed over covid though. Makes sense they would want the in-store experience to be more white-glove if they were seeing less foot traffic.
If you let the people in the store talk they will talk and try upset. Just politely say no.
It probably goes a long way to explain things if you know that Watch launched while Ahrendts was SVP of Retail at Apple. She came from Burberry, a luxury fashion retailer, and clearly had a vision for Apple Stores that was not compatible with the high throughput & demand they regularly get.
"That one?" said Fenchurch, pointing, rather puzzled, at a blue plaque with some instructions written on it.
"Yes. They are the words that finally turned me into the hermit I have now become. It was quite sudden. I saw them, and I knew what I had to do."
The sign said:
Hold stick near centre of its length. Moisten pointed end in mouth. Insert in tooth space, blunt end next to gum. Use gentle in-out motion.
"It seemed to me," said Wonko the Sane, "that any civilization that had so far lost its head as to need to include a set of detailed instructions for use in a packet of toothpicks, was no longer a civilization in which I could live and stay sane."
— Douglas Adams, So Long and Thanks for All The Fish, Pan Books (1984)
They're just phones, they're just laptops. But no, we get "what's a computer?" hurr durr.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFy7RmVx-Rc
On the other hand, Apple certainly seems to bank on making their devices as exclusive an experience as possible. They sell a huge amount, but they want the customer to feel like they are part of an elite group. This will heighten the artificial sense of scarcity.
And the funny thing about what the legions of Apple faithful who were willing to pretzel themselves into contortions defending that.
(For a more reason, mention Batterygate and watch them come out and tell you how you just don't understand, Apple was absolutely doing you a favor, somehow.)
(Just like when they quoted me $900 to fix faulty charging on a MacBook, device worked perfectly, battery was healthy, just could not be charged. "Perhaps we should talk about getting you into a new Mac instead...?")
It's frustrating, sure, but look at if from the other side: 99% of the people they deal with are completely incapable, and 90% of their problems ARE solved by a simple reboot.
Apple/iPhone is the ubiquitous phone for everyone from CTOs to grandma's.
The in store experience is optimized to make sure a person that has been stuck in a cave for 30 years and can walk out with a device optimized for their needs.
I bet they think that people like you will just buy online and choose in store pickup...
But I did once visit a store with someone wanting to buy a Watch and there was no forced sitting through any fitting or explanations. Just some questions about which Watch, if they already had a phone to connect it to, etc., and we were in and out of the store in under 20 minutes (Covent Garden, London, a Saturday afternoon, which is reasonably but not terrifyingly busy.)
++anecdata
Go to LA for example and you'll find creative professionals that need "pro" level gear but appreciate the white-glove Apple service of showing them around and answering questions for a high end purchase.
Historically, I've been able to just throw in a few little bits of "yup, I know how that works" so that their techs realize that I know what I'm talking about and let up with the patronizing assumptions about what I do and don't know. However, this time, when dealing with a newly-present heat issue during charging after that very store replaced the battery in the phone (so both a safety issue and one that would be warranty if it could be determined that it was caused by the repair), the tech just kept repeating that there was no way that their work could've caused it and going "these phones don't have a fan to cool them like our laptops". No matter what I said, I couldn't get them to have an actual discussion with me, so now I'm stuck waiting for a call from their safety support team since it's a heat issue.
Hopefully I can get somewhere with the phone support people, but it's really disappointing that they don't train their techs in the stores to feel out what a customer knows or at least drop some of the "oh the user doesn't know anything" if customers are showing that they do, in fact, know things.
Then I had a problem with the keyboard replacement program. They agreed to replace it under their extended warranty, due to the known issues with them. Posted the laptop off. Got an email 2 days later with a blurred image “the logic board shows signs of water damage”. I had a choice. Replace the logic board at my own cost (>£1000), or return the device unrepaired. They were the ones that had previously opened the machine & replaced the logic board! The machine operated permanently in clamshell mode, vertically - there’s simply no way any moisture could have got into it. I just wanted the keyboard replacing. Very frustrating. I ended up buying the parts & doing the repair myself.
All-in, bad experiences.
I think they have homogenized support to treat each user as equally non-technical, it's by design. Apple is like a sect, they need to have a strong grip on their users.
“Your job is not to sell products, we could put all this inventory out there on a pallet with a credit card swiper and sell all of them. Your job is to sell attachments, primarily Apple Care”.
Seriously, sales volume was a footnote. You are entirely judged on your attach rate for whatever it is corporate/your market is pushing, they start you part time and the only way up is to attach attach attach. No one wants to “just sell you a phone” because they know you’ll never get Apple Care and for every one of you they need to sell 4 other people on AC to get their numbers back up.
Another fun note: At the time Apple Store revenue $/sq ft beat out jewelry stores.
Great gig as a high school kid, made decent cash and a bunch of people used their tuition assistance. A large number of their employees though are what I call “retail lifers”, 25-30 year olds who are way in debt from a degree that didn’t work out or washed out of the corporate world and landed back in retail. They really don’t like younger employees who are actually going somewhere/realize it’s a temporary gig for kids and not a real career. Lots of alcoholism and drug abuse in that group.
A customer who already knows exactly what configuration they want is probably going to be hard to sell AppleCare to.
https://www.aboveavalon.com/notes/2021/3/10/the-future-of-ap...
For example, even buying something as simple as an Airtag means waiting for a random employee to be free, who then gets one for you, only to then wait for another different employee to be free to allow you to pay for it. Maybe that's just about theft prevention?
My one "Genius Bar" experience (recently) in Munich was really crappy - told to check in, then told to wait by a table where I was ignored; when I re-approached someone, told to wait somewhere else... and watching the flow of things, it became very apparent that my 'appointment' had no value - I was helped in a queue after people who'd just walked in.
I guess though that this does apply to accessories rather than one of their main product lineups though - although I have heard similar things from friends purchasing products at the same store. Perhaps it heavily depends on which store you go to?
I don't have an Apple Store in my country, but last time I bought Watch in Tokyo and an iPhone in NYC, I told them I know exactly what I want and the transaction was super quick.
In NYC I was even impressed by it, because I just talked to the sales rep for the tiniest bit and a colleague came over and inconspicuously handed her a box with the phone mid-walk. I haven't noticed how she (the sales rep) signaled for it. It almost felt like buying drugs.
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This wont happen if you want to buy a phone or MacBook, but with accessories and things you can self-checkout, it’s pretty seamless.
Oh, you didn’t know that there’s actually two different places to swipe down at the top of the phone? Everyone knows about that, you idiot!
It drive me crazy. It's bad enough to have to talk to a salesman when I wasn't seeking one, it's even worse when I tell that salesperson that I'm ready to buy something specific and then they waste both of our time trying to do anything other than take my money and give me the thing.
Those are stores I'm unlikely to return to.
This is different than when I want a salesperson to explain things to me. In that case, yes, please shower me with attention as long as they're one of the ones that are actually helpful rather than just constantly trying to sell.
This is anecdotal of course. Your experience is yours. Sorry you went through that. My experiences have all been pretty smooth.
As for the Vision Pro, I think we’re dealing with a very different kind of product. They want everyone to have a positive experience, and this is the kind of thing no one has used even if you’ve used VR headsets, you’ve not used the product they created. They want to make sure you’re not getting stuck on fit or comfort.
If you want to see it in person / try it on / have questions, that is what the physical Apple Store is for.
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I find the store purchasing experience to be frustrating as well, but if you order online and it's in stock, every Apple store I've lived near will deliver it to you door in 2-4 hours.
If you want to play with a product: go to the store, interact with it, and if you like it order it on your phone while you're there. It will be home not long after you are.
Being forced into an appointment when you're ready to pay and know exactly what you want doesn't sound like a run-of-the-mill shopping chore.
It oddly resembles a visit to a medical clinic (that is government subsidized, and accordingly fettered with bureaucratic rules that prevent you from just ordering the procedure you want).
Told them what they wanted, they went back and got it, they brought a POS so I could pay, I was easily out of there in 10min.
Never had any issues like this whatsoever in more than a decade of shopping at these stores?
That's what I did when I got my last phone, and will do that on every subsequent purchase.
Or purchase from the hundreds of third party resellers who also sell them.
There are many people especially with the Apple Watch who aren't experts at technology and so having personalised service makes sense for them. And for you there are obviously many other options.
But then, it might be about my buying habits: the cheapest thing which suits my needs, and only when I actually need it rather than as soon as it comes out, so I'm almost never there at the sales peak for whatever it is I'm getting.
I have purchased several Apple Watches, iPhones, and other devices and not once have I ever been forced to sit through anything other than an employee going to the back to get what I purchased.
It seems they made the experience for the people they show in their commercials (some "tech unconcerned happy people" who knows just barely enough to pick the Apple product, has "good vibes mandolin music" all over them and somehow makes 300k/yr)
I don’t mind the additional hand holding for a new category to make my myself familiar with it.
I don’t say this to challenge your story, but I found it completely straightforward to buy an iPhone in an Apple Store recently (in London).
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A: Approach customers with a personalized warm welcome
P: Probe politely to understand all the customer's needs
P: Present a solution for the customer to take home today
L: Listen for an resolve any issues or concerns
E: End with a fond farewell and invitation to return
> it would take half an hour or so to get somebody over
That's only the case for genius bar appointments or an extended consultation when they're super busy or something. If you just want to buy a phone you've already decided on, you ask the nearest person and they grab it and you pay for it.
It sounds like there was maybe just a miscommunication in your case. There is no trend here.
Apple stores are often willing to spend enormous amounts of time with you if you ask for help, but I've never seen them stay in your way when you say "no" and that you're ready to pay and leave.
(Obviously it can happen, but they're some of the most-standardized tech stores out there. If it were A Thing™, it would be everywhere.)
But you can ask them to grab a specific model of iPhone, iMac, etc, for you if you don't need information.
Here's what won them over:
- Being able to try it themselves with little preparation ("put this on your head, tighten it here, and click these buttons on the controller"). You could even use it over glasses.
- Games that you play by grabbing things with your hands. The heavy hitters are Beat Saber and Half-Life: Alyx, but Climbey and UltraWings also got fans, and all the combat games where you punch cartoons or reload guns realistically.
(seriously, if you've never tried, the jump from mouse+keyboard to hand tracking is like going from arrow keys to mouse+keyboard)
Meanwhile, here's what Apple seems to be doing:
- Customized accessories, to the point that you need a face-scan and to send them your glasses prescriptions.
- Eyetracking and gesture-only interactions. I haven't seen a single demo where somebody picks a virtual object up.
How is that going to work? Do they expect to make up for all the lost word-of-mouth with marketing campaigns? Also, did they give up on VR games?
They are following Palmer Luckey's "Make people want it first model". Being supply limited, traditional marketing would only generate demand they can't satisfy. What they actually have to do is make sure every person who gets one has the most perfect experience possible.
This is particularly important when it comes to a VR headset, where it's very easy for bad initial experiences to literally physically condition the user into getting sick every time they put on a VR headset.
Stepping the most diehard fans through how to metaphorically "hold it right" also gives them a built-in backstop of support when it comes to preventing those issues with future consumers once they eventually hit the point of proper mass market production.
But they can't have the most perfect experience if the software isn't there. And there won't be enough software that actually utilises the 3D features until a sufficient number of developers get access to the device.
So I agree that the strategy can work but it can also be overstretched. If expensive devices become obsolete before they become useful, and if developers write this off as some sort of forever niche then momentum will die.
Because you could say GMail but GMail was a better experience than literally every other provider at the time.
Everybody had fun, but more like going to a theme park. Nobody ever talked about it again or bought one, just zero interest. And these are tech people.
It seems to me that Apple is very worried about their device getting slotted into the “fun expensive limited use toy” niche.
If they can actually deliver on their promises - they will fucking sweep the VR market. Current VR headsets blow chunks. If the meta quest cost 10$ - people would still not use it for normal things, because it unpleasant to interact with.
So now we're here. If Apple delivers on their promise of a very nice Oculus Quest sorta thing with iPhone apps and AppleTV+, I can't imagine people using it more than their Oculus Quest, iPhone or AppleTV.
I really wish Meta or someone else would focus on fitness more. Augmented fitness (not normal gaming) seems to be an area ripe for viral adoption. Without any haptic feedback, VisionPro is less suitable than the Quest.
It's just that they are positioning the device as a spatial computer i.e. something you use to get real work done. And right now for 99% of people that involves 2D windows.
[1] https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2023/10088/
[2] https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2023/10083/
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2023/06/developer-tools-to-cr...
https://developer.apple.com/visionos/
Totally different experience here. It's interesting but the mouse still blows away anything VR has offered thus far. Games like Beat Saber /are/ a ton of fun and cool input method but but the novelty wears off fast. A majority of my friend group all bought VR headsets together and after 1-2 months of playing (often together) our usage has fallen off a cliff. I can't remember the last time I picked up my headset and I even bought lenses a couple months ago to try and reinvigorate my interest (I wear glasses/contacts but glasses always fog so I'd have to put in my contacts to play which was an annoying barrier) but I literally played it 1-2 more times before getting bored and moving on.
Current VR headsets are only good for gaming (yes, even the Meta Pro, it's resolution is joke for real productivity) and I have a limited interest in that method of gaming. I still play my Xbox, I still play games on my computer, I still play games on my phone but VR gaming isn't as interesting to me. It's novel but it wears off and the motion sickness is really annoying in certain types of games. All that coupled with absolute shit hand tracking (it's cool when it works but it fails too often), lackluster controllers (I can only take my sabers going wild when that's not what my hands are doing so many times), and poor graphics makes my headset a toy and not a particular good one.
We will see if Apple is able to improve on what's currently available and their track record has me hoping they succeed. Their vision, no pun intended, of AR/VR is much more in line with what I have been dreaming of for decades.
https://www.businessofapps.com/data/mobile-games-revenue/
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Why do I need to do that? It’s a great demo but it’s not something I need to be able to do day to day. And that seems to be the strategy from Apple. Make it a useful device for daily tasks rather than a gaming specific device or a device for doing something “new”. If you’re paying $3500 it needs to be immediately useful.
Think about it, you’re trying to tell me Vive is great and their marketing strategy (word of mouth) was a huge success…I have never seen one in the wild and Occulus seems to be much more popular. In other words their strategy hasn’t worked so probably not a great idea for Apple to copy it.
Apple doesn't want their market to be the same as the market for the HTC Vive, which isn't exactly a successful product (at least by Apple standards). They also don't want the market to be defined by their competitors, so they're approaching the market in a very different way. An example of this is how, in the keynote where they announced their new VR headset, they didn't say the words "Virtual Reality" once.
People won't get hyped on the Vision Pro by their best friend, they'll get hyped on it by their favourite YouTuber.
If true, no need to push hard to sell these this year.
The manual learning process of ordering special fit lenses, adjusting the headsets, etc would be a great fit with Apple’s store model.
There are 270+ Apple stores in the US, I don't have the figures to hand but an overwhelming percentage of the country's actual population live within an hour of an Apple store. They are common, frankly.
I'm not defending the decision to require a store visit here, but lets not paint a picture of Apple store availability that doesn't exist. The number of people with disposable income in the US to purchase a 3500 dollar headset and actually want to buy one who aren't living under an hour from an Apple store is likely a very small list.
Sounds like a serious shortcoming if you can't share the device with friends and family.
for the enthusiastic, apple is going to make it as low-friction as possible.
this is a slow game.
When you use an oculus, if you need to do something like reply to a text, check an email or reply to someone on social media, you have to take off your headset or kill your current task and switch to virtual desktop.
Having all your iOS apps on it, and being able to multitask means people won’t be taking off their headset as often and they’ll not have to consider dedicated VR time.
To me, that’s the biggest software differentiator
The reported battery life on the Vision Pro is still going to require that you have dedicated "goggles on" time for the foreseeable future.
-
The reasons I would not like to have one of these devices ;
* Apple's closed moat
* App store lock-in
* 'DLC' model whereby not a single thing you do on this $3,500 device will be free - and no matter what app you choose, Apple takes 30% of whatever revenue stream that app wants...
* The piss-poor apple fix-service market, and their shitty designs of the iphone which break so fn easily that VCs (YC+) have had to invest in cottage industry of phone repairs
I've had iphones since the first day of launch... and while I prefer them over android, I still hate ios ecosystem.
The infra-mechanics of it are awesome, but compared to the smarmy and condescending greedy Apple, i still hate ios.
It won't be using the app store, though. It's using a brand-new store, built from scratch. No iOS apps will be there unless the authors rewrite them to be compatible with visionOS.
Maybe I misunderstood, but if not count me skeptical.
This is particularly important for a) new product categories where customers aren’t yet sure they want/need it, b) products that “fit”, or don’t, and c) expensive entertainment products. These headsets are all three, so it’s really important.
Apple’s retail presence could solve this.
It has been one of Apple’s competitive advantages since 2001.
How many people are going to spend $3500 on a device that by definition you have to try on in person to see if you want it?
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The Apple Watch was initially sold at fitting appointments in store, and I think that was important in establishing it as a normal thing to wear and even a fashionable thing to wear in some cases, and helped cement the product in the mainstream.
Tailored suits is another case where there’s a premium price, premium service, but a lot of friction. It’s not always bad.
They’re also probably supply constrained enough that the friction doesn’t matter for the first version or two.
they’re front-loading friction in an effort to minimize it.
This sort of exclusivity makes some people feel special. It's a viable tactic.
I cannot imagine people being excited that they need to go physical store and deal with a staff there to get their fancy new toy.
I find it surprising that this is less common than it was in the past, and that people are more willing to put up with something that’s a subpar fit for them. One tech example that would benefit from custom fit are in-ear headphones. It would make sure that product is a perfect fit for every customer every time, rather than roughly every single customer having to put up with a suboptimal fit and poor comfort.
https://youtu.be/bWgd5crvB0U
From what I understand, there are a number of sub $500 options. (xreal air, rokud air, TCL NXTWEAR, etc). However they all get very mixed reviews. I wish there was a retailer that had demo units, as this is something I'd very much like to try before I buy.
I tried Pico 4 headset, and gaming-wise it is fine, you almost forget you are not in your room anymore, but run a browser, and eyes start bleeding out from horrible font rendering. It is somewhat better on Quest 2, but still too bad.
I've tried this on other platforms. The device gets heavy and your eyes get hot and sweaty, and dealing with an extension cord running from your head to a battery pack just adds insult to the inconvenience. It's not fun and it was not a major boost to productivity.
Plus.. for $3,500 I can just buy quite a few nice monitors.
But you're not taking those monitors anywhere.
Yeah, but you can't use them in planes or hotel rooms very easily.
Apple seems to have maxed out every possible spec and put a ton of research and software into making a great experience.
Probably will see it move down price points from here (it already has Pro in name so presumably that’s the top).
The parts will get cheaper over time as well which will help.
When seeing the Apple goggles, it clicked for me that this was basically a mac environment, and I started thinking how amazing it would be to run terminals in it, then I started googling for any options that were available now..
1. Eye tracking for interaction vs hand tracking. If the UX works out, the amount of precision that can be reached is just far higher with less effort - just seems to be an easier technical problem.
2. Resolution and lensing. Most VR headsets have fairly low quality fresnel lenses which cause distortion near the edges (basically - if you want to see something in good detail, you have to tilt your whole head to look at it), and in general the resolution is not good enough to see things that are 'far away' (those who play games like DCS have to use the 'binoculars' feature with headsets to accurately see targets). With a device like an HP Reverb, the resolution is probably close to good enough, the lensing is not - the Meta Quest Pro has a good enough lens, but not resolution. I'd expect the lensing on the Apple device to be top of market, and we know the resolution is ~2.5x more dense than the Meta Quest Pro - which should be closer to going from SD to HD TV rather than HD to 4k. Essentially, if you try to code on a Meta Quest Pro, the text looks a bit blurry. With the Vision Pro, it won't.
3. Custom face cushion + prescription lenses. Comfort is everything with these devices and nothing is worse than a headset putting pressure in the wrong places. It'll cost much more, but be totally worth it.
4. People claim common nausea when using VR. I've felt it too, but only on certain headsets. My money is other companies know what causes folks to feel bad, but have had to make technical tradeoffs which mean that nausea remains a problem. I'd put money on Apple having done serious research into 'what causes nausea when using headsets' which causes this to minimised on their headsets.
5. Software stack and usability. VR stacks are typically fairly clunky, usually Android derived, usually behaving a bit like a dodgy phone. iOS/MacOS are usually not most feature-ful, but a core usually works very very well. Will likely push bar a lot higher, change the shape of industry (e.g. samsungs are so good because of the iPhone competition).
Basically, having used some of these devices - the complaints I have with these right now, are the same things that Apple has real, technical solutions for. And the price isn't even _that_ high compared to other players in the market. Pimax Crystal is $1600 for what right now is a fairly buggy user experience. Their vapourware Pimax 12k is listed as starting at $2400 for the most basic model, though it's been in that state for well over a year.
I think the price is right for what they do.
But actually resolution is extremely important for that kind of work and only the highest resolution headsets available today can actually work well for that.
Maybe it’s a solution looking for a problem, but the best use of AR has always seemed to be for activities that require full attention. Flying a plane, driving a car, riding a bike, etc.
There might be some point in the future at which the risk/benefit tradeoff lands in favorable territory, but I wouldn't bet on it being any time soon.
I use a quest pro for this. It requires relatively large font.
If the rumors about the pixels per degree are true, I’ll have trouble keeping my wallet in my pocket.
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What Apple is missing here is that people wanted the iPhone (a phone with an iPod built in) for years before it was even officially announced as under development. It succeeded because the market invented it, not because Apple are geniuses who showed us we needed it.
I may be an old man, but what I want is the opposite of immersive technology. Put a computer on my face? Are you kidding? The one in my pocket already feels increasingly parasitic.
Cynicism, pessimism, and affected jadedness have always been the way people have attempted to sound cool. Nothing new about that part.
Ultimately, the question is whether your path brings you joy.
It’s hard to see how anyone who has been following the technology could make this claim.
From many observers, we have seen many AR/VR devices fail over the years. Some spectacularly (like Snap Spectacles), and some seem to be just throwing money into a furnace (like Oculus, which hasn't failed, but even with millions of devices sold doesn't seem to be reaching product market fit for anything outside of niche gaming and fitness).
Yes, the Vision Pro is a different device, but there are orthogonal attempts at this kind of screen sharing experience which also have very niche markets, like Sightful's Spacetop laptop.
I get that the Vision Pro has some product differentiation, such as the App Store, the developer ecosystem (debatable at this point compared to other AR products), and so on - but what exactly are you seeing the market today that will drive this demand for Vision Pro? Where is the evidence that customers want this technology?
I'm more excited for something like Humane's laser projection system or a less-intrusive, deep-learning driven assistant which uses voice and tactile feedback.
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It won’t get better without big drives in adoption, adoption won’t happen without big improvements to.. everything. Catch 22
Have you ever used an AR/VR headset for something you generally enjoy (a game, a movie, Google Maps, whatever)?
I ask because my own experience (and the consensus of my network and the critics I read) is that devices like Oculus and the Vive Pro are extraordinarily compelling but overall held back by immature technology. Base stations. Wires. Visible pixels. Low quality video pass through. Stupid controllers you have to hold in your hands.
People see the potential and flashes of what might be, but it's impossible to get beyond the awful user experience.
> What Apple is missing here is that people wanted the iPhone (a phone with an iPod built in) for years before it was even officially announced as under development.
Two thoughts on this:
1) It seems to undermine your point that iPhone launched in 2007 and yet through 2011 failed to come close to outselling iPod in terms of units.
2) The device you are describing -- "a phone with an iPod built in", before the iPhone -- actually did exist. The Motorola ROKR E1, or the "iTunes Phone": it was unveiled in 2005 on stage by Steve Jobs. Motorola did the phone stuff, and Apple did the iPod bit.
It was a dismal failure and was discontinued after roughly a year on the market.
> It succeeded because the market invented it, not because Apple are geniuses who showed us we needed it.
What do you mean by "invented"? Because literally two years before the iPhone launched, the market "invented" a phone with a built-in iPod, manufactured by the leading cell phone manufacturer of the day, in collaboration with Apple, and it failed miserably. Did the market invent that phone?
It's fair to say that Apple is not the first entrant to most market it contributes to, and it's fair to say that they are rarely the progenitors of the technologies their devices rely upon.
What Apple is very good at is deeply understanding when new technologies can be combined or honed to bring them over a threshold of resonance with consumers which drives widespread adoption. It is not enough to simply say "ship a phone with a touch screen' --- folks were doing that for years before iPhone launched. Instead it's about understanding the interplay of latency, brightness, PPI, plural point awareness, manufacturing yields, component costs, and making tradeoffs which pursue a vision which people buy into.
That's why when you said "a phone with an iPod built in" you could have been referring to both iPhone _and_ the ROKR, but the two devices could not be more different: ROKR had a fiddly microSD card for storage. Crummy slow processor and user interface. Stupid tiny keyboard for typing on. WAP internet. Wired transfer speeds slower than high speed USB. Slow java apps. A low resolution TFT LCD display. Only 11 megabytes of onboard memory.
The thing I would hate, though, is limited availability with no real way of securing a spot. Nothing more annoying than trying to find any appointment spot available and praying that the units aren't sold out. It seems that their production "numbers" are capped by supply chain difficulties, rather than raw demand. But then again, it's $3500, so maybe I won't have any trouble grabbing a headset.
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I wear prescription glasses and have gone from single vision to progressive lenses that are stupid expensive. Worse, my prescription changes every visit to the optometrist. How sensitive is the headset's performance to my prescription, how expensive would replacement lenses be, and how difficult would they be to change out? Could I do this myself by ordering updated lenses based on my prescription or would I have to take the headset in?
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I feel you on this topic. I wear glasses. Wearing a really old pair from 20 years back is painful, but I can slip comfortably into a prescription from 6 years ago, I don’t know what your experience is with that, though.
I wish there were more information about this. Should I get an updated Rx and put in a pre-order for lenses? Who knows!?! I’m astigmatic, near sighted I guess, but a close up VR lens doesn’t change focal length at all, so lenses are a must for me.
Waiting and “seeing” ;)
FYI, unless your vision is quite bad, this is likely to bilk you and/or your insurance for money. I have slight-to-moderately bad eyesight and had optometrists trying to change my prescription every year as well, to no noticeable effect. I started getting my eyes checked only every few years and then taking away my prescription without purchasing glasses immediately. You can generally gauge how honest your optometrist is by how indignant this makes them.
Not really on-topic, but I've had very good luck with Zenni Optical.
As you likely know your vision will eventually settle when you hit late 30’s.
Also I assume you have considered LASIK?
Eyesight doesn't settle, it continues to deteriorate with age. Lasik also deteriorates with time, normally becoming noticeable about ten years after the surgery. Lasik providers offer "touch ups" as you get older in order to ameliorate this.