This type of 'update' is one reason I tend to stay away from so-called 'smart' devices.
If part of the product I've paid for is software, and the company can update it without customer consent at any time, then I can't rely on the product's features. Period.
I experienced this myself on the PS4 version of Terraria. I bought a hard-copy of the game. I mastered the controls, and loved them. Terraria was updated one day, and the controls were all changed, completely. Total rip-off. I liked the game I bought, but it was replaced without my consent.
My feeling is that this behavior should be illegal for purchased products.
I agree. Perhaps the U.S.'s legal framework reasonably allows this kind of behavior, but IMHO it's a sign that the framework needs legislative correction.
The first time I encountered this was when Sony advertised Linux-compatibility for the PS3, which I bought expressly for that purpose. I was shocked when a judge upheld Sony's post-sale removal of that capability.
Government should mandate the ability to downgrade the software to versions that were previously available on said hardware.
I’ve had so many issues with Apple devices losing compatibility with obscure features on apps after updating iOS, I wish I could go back occasionally to accomplish some task, and then upgrade again when finished.
The flexibility is valuable.
For example, on the newest iPad Pro, iMovie is unusable after iOS 15, completely jittery and unable to handle smooth user experiences for some reason.
IIRC the Linux support was there solely so that Sony could circumvent tariffs in the EU.
Gaming consoles had higher tariffs than "general purpose computers", so Sony added the ability to boot into Linux and argued - successfully - that it was a general purpose computing device and thus in the lower tariff category.
I bought a couple Hue bulbs a while back and a (somewhat) recent update to the Hue app removed the ability to control them via by watch. Completely pointless feature removal. Part of the selling point is that level of control, and yet they just removed an entire feature I frequently used. That's simply straight up removing something that I've paid for, which I don't view as any different from theft.
This is precisely the reason why prior to linux support/removal, exploits weren't targeted. Once linux support was removed, linux hackers started releasing exploit after exploit on the target hardware and software, and it only took a couple months after they removed the linux support.
This pattern is pervasive. I also dislike needing an app and an internet connection for the most basic functionality with some purchased device. At some point, we need to own the things we buy and that line keeps getting pushed back further and further.
Anec-data: I purchased a cooking device for my parents in December and it has a single button to turn it off. The only way to use it is with an app which requires a login to the company's service. The device even has local bluetooth capabilities. You may be wondering, "What is this device supposed to do?" and the obvious answer is: "It's supposed to boil water." The real answer seems to be, "it collects usage data about customers boiling water."
I'm assuming you are talking about a sous vide device.
This is one of the few (unrooted) smart devices I actually appreciate. You can easily configure it for a specific task (steak? chicken? brussels?), get push notifications when it's done and even turn off it's warm setting remotely if needed.
And given that most of the thing is immersed in boiling hot water, it makes sense to not put controls on the device itself.
> I also dislike needing an app and an internet connection for the most basic functionality with some purchased device.
Yeah, my watch supports setting (and syncing) the time and timezones using bluetooth. But before you can do that, you must agree to the maker's ridiculous privacy policy which includes consenting to sending them all kinds of data that has fuck all to do with setting the time on a watch. Immediately uninstalled. So that feature is dead weight to me unless/until someone reverse engineers the watch.
This is true for most consumer tech (whether software or hardware) nowadays. The primary objective is to get "engagement" out of it. Any useful work the product might be doing is the bare minimum needed to convince the user to "engage" with the product.
It’s not that i dont agree but the Terraria example is a bit unfair. First this is issue of the platform. On other platforms you can choose version of the game.
And second Terraria is example of probably one of the most supported games. The update you are talking about brings massive amount of content and updates completely for free 9 years!!! after release. Most companies would milk the product with third sequel and dozens DLCs by that time.
I'm not trying to pick on Terraria, but I think it's a great example for the reasons you are bringing up.
Even with the 'value add' of the update, I no longer play the game. Why? Because I invested in learning and mastering the game as it was when I bought it. The forced update removed all value for me, and I'm the one who made the decision to buy it.
If the product is changed significantly after purchase without my consent, then I feel I should be able to revisit my decision to purchase it. Otherwise, it's a sort of bait-and-switch scheme.
> brings massive amount of content and updates completely for free 9 years!!!
Which can be a bad thing. The Minecraft I played first and the Minecraft I played recently are two different games, and I don't like how overpacked with stuff the new version is.
Most game expansions - paid or not - follow the philosophy of "more of the same", rather than stopping somewhere between that and "less is more". Depending on the game, that can make it tedious.
> I tend to stay away from so-called 'smart' devices
I tried several alternatives in terms of smart TV (Apple TV, Google/Android TV, Fire TV), and I could not find any platform that let me use all of the apps that I needed without resorting to casting from my phone. And in some cases there was a long process to follow in order to get the device to do what I needed[1], which involved activating developer mode, sideloading apps etc.
In the end, I bought a wireless keyboard/touchpad combo and built a HTPC, reusing old components that I removed from my gaming PC after upgrading it over the years. I installed Ubuntu on it and never looked back.
[1] For example not having the home screen being made of mostly ads, or having a simple web browser installed on the device
Genuinely curious, did you feel anything was missing from Apple TV besides a web browser? I feel it’s perfect for our uses but I always like to know if I’m missing something. Personally I don’t like web browsing on TV but AirPlay fills that gap when it’s needed.
I tried to do the same thing, but the 4K+HDR streaming story is fully broken/DRM'd to hell on PC. You simply cannot stream 4K+HDR in most (all?) services on a modern PC (my HTPC is also a gaming PC... so Nvidia graphics in my case).
I went with Apple TV + Plex (along with D+/NFLX/Peacock/HBO Max/Hulu/AppleTV/Prime/Cable... but I still can't find everything I want)
Yeah, I completely agree. Vehicle manufacturers can't just come and change out the steering wheel and dashboard in your vehicle, for example. Why can software vendors change out the total functionality of a piece of software you paid for? Especially irreversibly, in the case of DRM-laden platforms like game consoles, iOS, etc. where you cannot undo an update once it's installed, or cannot refuse an update if you want to actually use the software. Recently an iOS app I use almost daily pushed an update that removes a feature I relied on. The dev has never fixed the issue and has made other minor changes since, subtly indicating their change is intentional and permanent, so I'm just screwed forever and lost a core piece of functionality I depended on. Great. This is fine.
> Yeah, I completely agree. Vehicle manufacturers can't just come and change out the steering wheel and dashboard in your vehicle, for example.
Actually, they can. There was a huge airbag recall a few years ago, affecting maybe half a dozen automobile manufacturers because they all bought their airbags from the same supplier. In at least one case, the dash had to be modified in order to fit a replacement airbag because drop-in replacements could not be procured quickly without disrupting new car production. It would not surprise me if some of the cases also required modifying or replacing the steering wheel.
It's a tangent, but it's incredible to me that people used to ship video games and other software on physical media and it worked fine. Now you can drop a big turd on the steam store initially and it's just business as usual. Cynicism aside, I really do admire the dev and QA teams that pulled this off. It's such a different world now.
It cuts both ways, games would take half decades to get done or only cover a thousandth of the ground current games cover. Imagine what Minecraft would be, shipped on physical media.
We also wouldn't get games like Goat Simulator who basically set a low expectation bar in exchange for low cost, best effort game play. I'm kind of ok with more "garbage" if we also get more weird/low budget games that wouldn't exist otherwise.
Take a look at the games from that era and the games you get right now. Sure, more has changed than just being able to update things, but the ability to fix issues later and continually update games has lead to much much better games with way more content. And you can always chose to wait a year for everything to settle.
My feeling is that this is a temporary thing that leverages previous generations propensity for compliance and happily being controlled and screwed over constantly.
I have been appalled at the way people bend over and open their wallet since I was a preteen. Nordic and all the other rent seeking shits count on people blindly using their product they way they are told to. I'm surprised Nordic isn't suing their customers yet.
The problem with 'smart' devices I think is something akin to a conflict of interest.
On the one hand you're purchasing hardware, which you expect to own and control.
On the other, there is software that runs on a subscription model which 'coincidentally' restricts the functionality of the hardware, because they want to stop people from bypassing the sub.
The hardware effectively becomes useless if the subscription service becomes unavailable or is taken down (e.g. if the company is acquired and the new company doesn't want to support that stuff any more). It might still function mechanically, but it now has a broken appendage through no fault of your own.
I just don't think I could justify a purchase like that nos unless I could square that circle. I'm not going to pay 2k for a Peloton bike that holds itself hostage unless I pay another 40 a month.
That's a different debate IMO. Not so long ago we had external storage that only worked with Sony products. We now have headphones that only work with Apple phones.
Exclusivity always existed at weird levels, here the issue would be more about having the option to freeze/protect a product's software state to get out of the update treadmill.
> If part of the product I've paid for is software, and the company can update it without customer consent at any time, then I can't rely on the product's features. Period.
That's about any electric car manufactured after 2020.
I've never owned an electric car, but that doesn't surprise me. I'm curious whether you are just stating the fact, or suggesting that the practice is commonplace, therefore justified.
Even if it is software, I don't want automatically updating. The problem introduced by automatically updating is higher than the problem they fixed in my experience.
For example, windows updating. There was an updating when professor gave the talk in class. Windows updating popped out. There is no way for professor to stop the updating. He missed the chance and windows already went into blue updating screen. So, We had a break, and professor went to his office to find another computer.
Another problem is that automatically updating almost always runs silently. When I played online game and the game went laggy, I always tabbed out to see what happened with resource monitor. It is easy to find out there is whatever updating using CPU or bandwidth.
I feel updating just like legally raping my device. Oh. It is OUR device.
One option is to never buy hardware where you haven't installed the OS/software yourself and therefore have control over updates. This is kind of limiting though since lots of hardware doesn't support installing your own OS and Linux/BSD/etc don't support various hardware.
I similar avoid purchasing devices that I can’t have full ownership of.
I’ve often thought about starting a hardware company that provides all the source code, schematics, bill of materials with the sale of a product. This is a dream and a desire I have for the things that I do buy.
For example, I have several digital cinema film cameras that I do not plan to upgrade or sell. Unfortunately they are showing their age and have some fixable faults. I have spent the last two years to reverse engineering these cameras to identify the fault. If only I had a schematic.
I don’t expect the industry or politics to change any time soon. If only a hardware company could change the status quo by enabling their customers to be enabled to have full ownership and access.
> I’ve often thought about starting a hardware company that provides all the source code, schematics, bill of materials with the sale of a product. This is a dream and a desire I have for the things that I do buy.
Hardware in the old Soviet states came with all the blueprints and engineering schematics to fabricate replacement parts in the field.
Tablets can bounce around on a treadmill if you really get going, and 10" is not 32". And you think customers are going to wall-mount a TV in the garage where a lot of treadmills live, rather than just buy a built-in screen? I mean, yeah, that's exactly what I did, but not everyone (not but a few?) are even that handy.
And on top of everything else, customers thought that they could watch whatever they wanted on their attached 32" LCD screen. Why fuck with wall-mounting a TV or a bouncy tablet when they sell a treadmill with the screen built-in?
That is not always practical. Also, why purchase a tablet or install a wall mounted screen, when there is a perfectly good screen right in front of you.
I bought a sleep number bed, and now after like 2 years, suddenly one of the bedsides has decided to completely deflate around 5am every night, waking me up and forcing me to open up my phone and tell it to reinflate. I haven't contacted the company yet (out of laziness I guess), but I mean... it's a bed. A thing I lay on. Definitely turned me off to smart products, at least ones that worked perfectly fine as dumb devices.
For those of us are were of age when the internet and (later) big-data became a thing, we can only applaud the work of so many smart people. We see engineering plus entrepreneurship at its best. The varied inversion, however, of who has the majority control of an object or service post-purchase has lately gone to the provider not customer. Folks, that's a problem. We've seen this,
- here
- John Deer self-fix stories
- Apple store stories (and Android/Google variations)
- Several flavors of techs at places like best buy quivering in their boots at an Apple fix. Techs keep blabbering on about Apple repair policy and what they cannot do. I finally had to tell the guy: Start telling me what you can do, or I'll talk to somebody else. All I asked for was if they have a screw driver to take the bottom plate off, which I later got off Amazon.
- General issues of privacy
We gotta get back to customer satisfaction. Eventually --- not as quick as we might prefer --- customers will realize they have the stronger position and use it. Indeed, if I plunk down money for an object, my assessment counts. I do not accept some paper pusher a large-corp-America gainsaying that.
There are reasons behind updates and auto-updates. Bugs, features, users which did not consistently update and were left with insecure or buggy software. Then again, updates are also a mess.
I think this is a problem which should have a mostly technical solution: If most software was updated as today and users could rollback at will, most problems would be solved. That's a better way than making updates illegal.
Companies could unbundle security patches from UX updates if they wanted to. For the software I use regularly, I pretty much always want security updates and never want UI/UX changes.
Of course the incentives are totally out of whack, since bundling the updates is cheaper and many UX "improvements" exist to make the company more money, at the expense of the user.
Once users are conditioned or forced to auto-update why wouldn't a profit maximizing company make changes to increase its bottom line, regardless of how it helps or hurts users?
PCs too. I’ve lost hours to OSX updates that bricked my dev setup (making me reinstall / compile libraries, disabling my second monitor, etc.). First thing I do is turn off auto update and wait for releases to bake for a while and until I have enough time to deal with any breakages.
I bought Elite Dangerous, played it loads, really enjoyed it. One day, they said 'we're no longer supporting MacOS'. Fine, I thought... except it turns out even their single player mode needs to be online to work, and they were disabling that as well.
No refunds, no apologies, just a game I'd paid 50 dollars for suddenly didn't work any more. Ultimately, still value for money given how many hours I'd ploughed into it before they broke it, but yeah, I think twice now about that kind of purchase.
But if you do that how could the poor company possibly make any money? How could it collect and monetize your private information? How could it advertise to you? How could it own you and sell access to you to other companies who want to reach you?
i agree, if you buy something, you buy it for how it is, now sometimes we may want to update for our benefit but other times maybe not, maybe updating would cause more harm than help. therefore we should have to consent to updates, i 100% agree with this and it’s not even that much code to add a “is it cool if we update?” alert.
> This type of 'update' is one reason I tend to stay away from so-called 'smart' devices.
That is why I call those devices 'dumb' devices (reminds me of a SciFi book where the AI helpers are called "artifically stupids"). Smart devices are local, no auto-updates, working with no issue in the event of an outage.
I have many smart devices, all that would stop working in the event of an internet outage, would be the voice interface.
> That is why I call [smart] devices 'dumb' devices
"Dumb devices" is already an actual term, already used to refer to non-smart devices, so you are confusing anyone that has not learnt your custom vocabulary.
This is why I disable updates for every piece of software that I use. People criticize this often, but it puts me in control. I can then review updates when I feel like it, and update as I see fit.
Linux and LineageOS are godsends in this regard too. I even like to maintain, update my things from time to time, but not always, and definitely not when Mr. Windows thinks it's the best thing to do right before my gaming time. Last time the stupid thing made me miss the time by half an hour, when all of my friends were waiting for me. I'm still salty about that.
I don't think the updates on this treadmill could be disabled. You have to connect it to the internet to use the screen and if it's connected it's getting updated.
Dear god don’t get me started on mobile terraria. They completely ruined the gameplay. Common sense would tell any product team to at least provide the option to switch back to the old interface (they didn’t add or take away anything that would disallow this) but NO. I started playing it because it was fun, simple and easy to learn/play, now the controls have been completely ruined for mobile.
I just bought Terraria a couple days ago to see what it was all about. After 20 minutes of futzing about with it on my iPad, I deleted it because it was so terrible to control. Now to learn that the developers only recently released an update to a 9 year old game that broke once working controls. Wild!
> if part of the product I've paid for is software, and the company can update it without customer consent at any time, then I can't rely on the product's features. Period.
I don't necessarily see where "customer consent" really enters the picture. Even if installing updates were optional, at some point you almost certainly want to install the updates, as it will contain bug fixes and enhancements in other areas of the product.
This is much more a question of relying on "off-label" feature / bugs in a product, which will always be an issue. The problem here is that the advertised experience was "you can only use our content" and that should have been enough to scare off potential buyers from considering it as an option.
The method to get into "God Mode" is the same, except now it prompts you for a code. Someone has figured out how to calculate it and actually created a website to generate codes for you.
>long responseCode = new Random((long) Integer.parseInt(iFitCode)).nextInt(999999);
It's not a perfect workaround, as it resets on the next boot, but I've seen that people are installing apps such as Taskbar which float overtop the iFit app and start on boot, allowing you to still launch your apps like Netflix etc even without God Mode enabled.
It's only a matter of time before Nordic decides to block this method as well. We should also be looking into how to block updates to these devices.
Normally you can block any device's update if you figure out the server for the update content/update check, and block it out from your router and/or DNS.
> It's only a matter of time before Nordic decides to block this method as well.
Maaaybe.
The public statement from them sounds like it was legal whining about liability issues, and if that's actually true (which, well) then if it has to be sufficiently intentional on your part that may be sufficient for them to leave well alone.
Certainly worth preparing for that not being the case though.
IANAL, but are there any actual cases where someone or a class successfully sued a company for using their product off-label in such a way? This kind of stuff seems to me like how schools no longer permit students to go out for lunch, citing liability that they almost assuredly never had in the first place.
This is great, thanks for posting this site. I am one of those who bought this awesome treadmill for several reasons, including to watch netflix and plex. It's been frustrating not being able to easily do this... I have just been listening to podcasts from my phone.
DHCP advertise an http proxy to it with a PAC file and block non-proxy communications. It should do the right thing eventually, at which point you can catalogue the usual traffic exchanges and then block anything not in them and/or just the software update URLs (which requires inspection over time, as there may be many).
Surely one can just block the update service via something like a pihole? I do this for my Vizio TV. They're notorious, as as most smart TVs now, for calling home and everywhere else.
Jeeze, I will stick with my modular solution: an ipad on a music stand. This is compatible not only with any commodity treadmill, but also bike trainers, ellipticals, and making vroomvroom noises on the motorcycle when it's too icy to actually ride. I could also swap out the ipad for a laptop, non-ipad tablet, or a collection of cute succulents should I desire it.
snark aside, I'm a bicycle guy and I really like that we have an ecosystem of bluetooth trainers and apps that all work pretty well with each other. Simulating hilly courses is actually really useful and has made me a better rider, so it's not like I'm advocating being a total luddite. While I prefer to ride outdoors in the sun, my area in Iowa is extremely flat and the only difficulty comes from the wind, and I find the new toys are a lot more fun than a dumb trainer with a sufferfest DVD. I don't really know much about the treadmill scene but I hope you guys have access to similar stuff.
But really, my understanding is that these fancier treadmills map incline/speed/whatever data to the video file to make it “more realistic”. I think there may even be a sort of MMO/live ghost feature?
Personally I think I’d rather just have music I like and work out at a pace that’s comfortable for me, but to each their own I suppose.
> I will stick with my modular solution: an ipad on a music stand.
My smart rower consists of a C2 Model D sitting in front of an old-school panasonic plasma TV in a spare/theater room. Both components are over 10 years old by now and neither show the slightest signs of giving up the ghost. That TV doesn't even know how to talk to the internet, and I lost the USB cable for the PM4, so everything is effectively off-grid.
Funny, I use iPad on a music stand, too. With my bike trainier (Hammer H3). BTW, you can get the Sufferfest content on the newer Wahoo Systm app. I don't mind paying the $15/month for it for a the three to four winter months spent training inside. (They also have newer content, too, than the old DVDs.)
If you're into running on a treadmill, this looks like a very sweet setup. It has a huge touch screen that's just in the right spot, you can easily reach it while running, and it has gimmicks like automatic adjustment of inclination.
It's not cheap, but it looks like really nice hardware. I totally understand why some people would want something like that, especially if you can install generic Android apps on it!
It's funny you mentioned the sun. I enjoyed the sun a little too much when I was younger. So one feature I enjoy in exercise bikes these days is the radiation protection.
The accessory part is also pretty neat though. I use a low end exercise bike that came with a snap-on plastic tablet holder. It works pretty well but it got me thinking about hacking the thing. I was finally able to mount a scanner radio, a ham radio, exercise bands, and my phone along with the tablet. Then my kids decided to take it off my hands for a while...I think Dad looked a little too motivated.
In this particular case, some of the runs from iFit instructors are actually quite good, and it cool that it adjusts the speed and incline to match the instruction. Probably not worth the extra $$$$ but it is pretty cool. But now I also want to be able to watch regular videos. I usually walk outdoors for an hour a day to get my 10,000 steps in, and the Chicago winter makes that tough, so I'm thinking an hour of walking on the treadmill while i catch up on my favorite shows might be a good substitute.
If you want a really nice version of this, companies like Heckler Design, Manfrotto, Triad Orbit, and König & Meyer make excellent stands with tons of adapters for lights, cameras, mics, speakers, phones, ipads...
My current WFH setup includes a Manfrotto 244N magic arm attached with a RAM mount to a Rokform RAM ball that very securely attaches to my Rokform iPhone case. It's clamped to my desk with a Manfrotto 035 SuperClamp. The RAM adapter is P/N RAP-B-366U and the double swivel on the RAM side is a RAP-B-201U . The Rokform part is "Universal Ball Adapter Phone Mount" SKU: 337101
RAM also makes a great iPad "X-Grip" holder, along with tons of different mounts for different situations, especially vehicles and things like exercise bikes (e.g. look for stuff like a "RAM® Double U-Bolt Ball Base for 1" - 1.25" Rails" or indeed their actual handlebar mounts). These are sturdy, pro-level mounts, not the cheap disposable junk from no-name brands on Amazon.
For my Zwift stationary bike setup that I use my old road bike on, I just use a $15 Niteize Handleband to attach my phone plus a Vornado 783DC made-in-USA DC brushless fan to keep the sweat levels low.
Another couple brands worth checking out would be Joby's stuff (I have an old GorillaPod DSLR that holds my webcam these days) and "The Joy Factory" who make pro-level iPad clamps / stands.
Give it a go with just your phone too before shelling out for a tablet. When I go to the gym I sometimes just lay my phone on top of the machine by the controls (about music stand level) and at that distance from my eyes the diagonal is plenty large enough
Same. I have a couple of used treadmills that I repaired for dirt cheap and a crappy TV mounted to the wall. Treadmill cupholders make great remote holders.
"NordicTrack says it supports right-to-repair rules. However, because of its equipment’s moving parts, the spokesperson says, it believes that restricting access to its operating system is important for safety. "
The real reason they don't want people using other apps or watching third party videos is because anyone doing that is not spending money on iFit. Or, at least, not as much as they could be. NordicTrack likely discounted these treadmills to squeeze out competitors with the intention of making their money back by locking customers into iFit.
If a few users hack their treadmills, that's not going to hurt NordicTrack's bottom line. If most users are doing it because it's as easy as tapping the screen 10 times, then there's a problem. So, NordicTrack has made it harder to gain admin access. Not impossible. Just harder. More people will go back to spending money on iFit, the determined few will roll up their sleeves, and the business model will be restored.
The problem is that this business model is a bait and switch. When people pay for a treadmill they don't expect to be locked into further monthly payments to unlock its features. It's inherently dishonest, and the victim, aside from users, is the competitor who produces an honest product that's paid for entirely up front and is, hence, more expensive and less competitive.
I really wonder about the payoff in the continual cat and mouse game here. At some point, you are going to be paying a sizeable sum to your devs to try a lock out a relatively small amount of technically capable people who will circumvent the system rather than pay a subscription fee. I agree making a little harder once probably convinced a few people to pay up...but after that it has to be diminishing returns and eventually negative returns. I wonder what the tradeoff would be if they marketed their system was one that as open and you could do so many things with it. Like, imagine if the commercials showed how you could use your treadmill but also connect to any app you wanted, like Netflix. To me, that would be a big draw.
On top of that, iFit is not very good. Continuously adjusting incline stopped being interesting about 2 months in. The only thing I liked was that it recorded a running total of distance and elevation, which was good for motivation. I walk outside more than I use the treadmill nowadays, and I use my Apple Watch for motivating statistics. I will probably just sell my treadmill or just give it away.
Do they not want to enable access to god mode because you can tinker with the treadmill parameters and do unsafe things or because they think Netflix will somehow break the treadmill?
If it's the former, then they should keep god mode for treadmill service operations inaccessible but also allow loading apps like Netflix and Hulu. I'd wager that streaming apps are what most of the people using god mode want.
My solution to this problem would be legislation that allows customers, if they wish to, to return devices for a full refund if the company that manufactures the device makes a change that removes functionality that the customer valued. This doesn't prevent the company from making the change, it simply makes sure that they incur a cost for doing so, and it makes whole any customer affected by the change.
For example suppose the UI of a treadmill has a "Last 5 workout programs used" section on the front page of the UI to allow the user to select with one tap a recent program. An update replace that with a "recents..." button which takes you to a new screen that shows the last 10 programs used.
Is no longer providing one tap access to the most recent 5 programs removal of functionality? Or is the feature just that it has a way to recall recent programs so as long as there still is a way to do that, even if more convoluted, it does not count as a feature removal?
How about functionality that was not in the device when it was purchased but was added by an update? If the law does apply to that, then in effect the manufacturer will be locked into only ever adding functionality. After a few updates the UI is probably going to be a total mess.
If the law only applies to features present at purchase, then manufactures will just ship bare bones devices that only implement what is necessary to make the claims on the box and in their advertisements not false. Then the first update will add a ton of stuff to make it more than bare bones.
After a few updates the UI is probably going to be a total mess
After a few messes the UI teams will figure out that you have to advertise and implement features in a way that doesn't interfere with user's habit. E.g. has a start screen where you may pin "last 5 workout programs", "recents...", any menu item, and a button to access other functions at top right.
Wow this is by far the best solution to this pervasive problem I've seen, no irony. This way, you don't need legislators go into technical and domain specific detail. Producers are incentivized to provide optional updates or "downgrades" if necessary, and if they shut their cloud services off and brick the device, people have a right to return it. Additionally, it can't be abused by customers if the company acts well.
However, we still need to tackle the subscription issue, I.e. That manufacturers can hide behind "you didn't renew the subscription for this printer/treadmill so now we brick it". Any ideas?
This basically means that everything that has software updates can be returned forever.
Like most of things in life, the answer is very rarely a new myopic and ill-conceived law added to the thick stack of existing incomprehensible legislation.
This basically means that everything that has software updates can be returned forever.
It doesn't. It means that functionality cannot be changed in a degrading way, but upgrading and non-conflicting security updates are still allowed.
For a customer, money upfront and money over time is the same (adjusting for the interest rate). They don't need just a dead brick, whatever it costs in production. When your saas stops having a feature, you stop paying. This is no different, except that I'd vote for a law which amortized the upfront cost to the real usage time. E.g. I bought a treadmill with 2-year warranty for $4000 and it stopped doing a claimed feature after a year (iow, became broken from my perspective). I either receive a service which returns the feature, or get $2000 back + 20% fine for inconvenience.
Not the first time a company has pushed an update that removes important features.
To my knowledge the first high-profile instance of this was when Sony updated the PS3 to remove Linux support, which resulted in a successful class-action in the US. [0]
Consumers who don't want products to have features disappear. The main thing class action suites accomplish is punishing the offender so that potential offenders in the future think twice.
> I have stacks of class action letters and in almost every case I get exactly zero...
I was pleasantly surprised when I got around $250 CAD from a Lenovo class action suit. I bought one of their consumer laptops that had a piece of crapware on it. It was big news when it happened. Otherwise, I normally get maybe $20 for the class actions that I sign up for.
My pet feature removal case is when they pushed an update for a GTA that removed a good bunch of the original songs from the radio. The articles I found are for GTA IV but I'm certain that the issue was with an earlier version at first.
I feel like that was actually a fairly legitimate removal by Sony. Sony was selling the consoles at a loss in order to make money on the games. People were taking advantage by buying cheap Linux computers, never allowing Sony to recoup money from the initial sale. I don't have much sympathy for the people abusing the system in this particular case. Probably an unpopular opinion around here.
>I don't have much sympathy for the people abusing the system
I disagree with the premise that it's unethical to use a product I purchase and own from a for-profit company for a use that turned out not to be profitable for it. Note that it wasn't much of a hack; Sony sold consoles with the option to install another operating system from its menu [0].
Since the move was so unprofitable to it, Sony should not have offered the option to users in the first place. But since it happened, executives at Sony then just decided that it made business sense for Sony to disable the option in a firmware update.
I just don't understand the framing where it's as if Sony did a favor for its customers who then "took advantage," when Sony just miscalculated a business policy to serve its own self-interest.
"OtherOS" was added to evade game console tariffs by claiming the PS3 as a computer, a similar tactic to the one used to attempt to classify the PS2 as a "digital processing unit" to avoid EU import duty.
Sony's removal of OtherOS wasn't just deceptive and an abuse of customers' trust, it was conspiracy to commit customs and tax fraud.
Also, while I bought my PS3 to learn parallel programming, I found that it wasn't that great for it. The CBE was really unintuitive, there was only framebuffer access to the GPU-RSX chipset, and with just 256MB RAM, $600 would have been better put towards a dual core CPU and any discrete GPU if you wanted a functional Linux computer.
Classically the feature was taken away to make you safer :)
> The block on privilege mode was automatically installed because we believe it enhances security and safety while using fitness equipment that has multiple moving parts,
This is related to why I bought a concept2 erg recently. Hurt my achilles and needed to switch to a low impact exercise, which I prefer to be able to do at home rather than going somewhere else (so swimming is out).
Looked at Peloton, but it's about twice as much as an erg up front, has running costs each month, and what seemed to be many more points of failure (which includes the electronics). The Concept2[0] is a tank that should last me a very long time. Space is an issue (I had to shove my dining table to the side), but the workout is amazing and I have a lot of faith in the machine to last. Plus it has a pretty straightforward bluetooth connection if I want to get data out and multiple USB and ethernet ports on the very simple monitor it came with.
I own a concept 2. I have 4.6 million meters on it. I watch programming videos in Spanish while I workout(To learn Spanish). This is my "Smart Workout Machine".
I have a concept2 rower as well. I didn't buy it for the SDK[0], but I love that they keep the tech minimal and provide tools for third party developers. It's a company I'm glad to support.
Concept2 machines are bomb proof. These things are designed for intensive use in gym settings which far outweighs the use I put in a single individual. I've put in countless meters on mine over the years and it's still practically good as new.
I normally ride a bike on a smart trainer during the winter (when not riding outside), but am planning to buy a Concept2 Erg before next winter. It should be great for core and back strength, something cycling -- especially indoor cycling -- benefits greatly from but just doesn't do.
It's amazing to me just how (relatively) cheap the Concept2 is. Solid, well made, and reliable.
Concept 2 is indeed the cheaper and better option for an erg. Aside from being very sturdy machines at reasonable prices compared to your nordictracs and pelotons, old models are supported essentially forever with spare parts and detailed installation/fix instructions. I dont know of any rowers who don't swear by them.
I picked up a model A for just this reason. $120 on craigslist for a 35 year old machine. It is super solid, but will need to replace a few minor parts soon. And from what I can tell they are all available for purchase from concept2, which is awesome.
Readit News
If part of the product I've paid for is software, and the company can update it without customer consent at any time, then I can't rely on the product's features. Period.
I experienced this myself on the PS4 version of Terraria. I bought a hard-copy of the game. I mastered the controls, and loved them. Terraria was updated one day, and the controls were all changed, completely. Total rip-off. I liked the game I bought, but it was replaced without my consent.
My feeling is that this behavior should be illegal for purchased products.
The first time I encountered this was when Sony advertised Linux-compatibility for the PS3, which I bought expressly for that purpose. I was shocked when a judge upheld Sony's post-sale removal of that capability.
I’ve had so many issues with Apple devices losing compatibility with obscure features on apps after updating iOS, I wish I could go back occasionally to accomplish some task, and then upgrade again when finished.
The flexibility is valuable.
For example, on the newest iPad Pro, iMovie is unusable after iOS 15, completely jittery and unable to handle smooth user experiences for some reason.
Gaming consoles had higher tariffs than "general purpose computers", so Sony added the ability to boot into Linux and argued - successfully - that it was a general purpose computing device and thus in the lower tariff category.
I bought a couple Hue bulbs a while back and a (somewhat) recent update to the Hue app removed the ability to control them via by watch. Completely pointless feature removal. Part of the selling point is that level of control, and yet they just removed an entire feature I frequently used. That's simply straight up removing something that I've paid for, which I don't view as any different from theft.
Anec-data: I purchased a cooking device for my parents in December and it has a single button to turn it off. The only way to use it is with an app which requires a login to the company's service. The device even has local bluetooth capabilities. You may be wondering, "What is this device supposed to do?" and the obvious answer is: "It's supposed to boil water." The real answer seems to be, "it collects usage data about customers boiling water."
This is one of the few (unrooted) smart devices I actually appreciate. You can easily configure it for a specific task (steak? chicken? brussels?), get push notifications when it's done and even turn off it's warm setting remotely if needed.
And given that most of the thing is immersed in boiling hot water, it makes sense to not put controls on the device itself.
Yeah, my watch supports setting (and syncing) the time and timezones using bluetooth. But before you can do that, you must agree to the maker's ridiculous privacy policy which includes consenting to sending them all kinds of data that has fuck all to do with setting the time on a watch. Immediately uninstalled. So that feature is dead weight to me unless/until someone reverse engineers the watch.
Even with the 'value add' of the update, I no longer play the game. Why? Because I invested in learning and mastering the game as it was when I bought it. The forced update removed all value for me, and I'm the one who made the decision to buy it.
If the product is changed significantly after purchase without my consent, then I feel I should be able to revisit my decision to purchase it. Otherwise, it's a sort of bait-and-switch scheme.
Which can be a bad thing. The Minecraft I played first and the Minecraft I played recently are two different games, and I don't like how overpacked with stuff the new version is.
Most game expansions - paid or not - follow the philosophy of "more of the same", rather than stopping somewhere between that and "less is more". Depending on the game, that can make it tedious.
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Which ones are those?
I tried several alternatives in terms of smart TV (Apple TV, Google/Android TV, Fire TV), and I could not find any platform that let me use all of the apps that I needed without resorting to casting from my phone. And in some cases there was a long process to follow in order to get the device to do what I needed[1], which involved activating developer mode, sideloading apps etc.
In the end, I bought a wireless keyboard/touchpad combo and built a HTPC, reusing old components that I removed from my gaming PC after upgrading it over the years. I installed Ubuntu on it and never looked back.
[1] For example not having the home screen being made of mostly ads, or having a simple web browser installed on the device
I went with Apple TV + Plex (along with D+/NFLX/Peacock/HBO Max/Hulu/AppleTV/Prime/Cable... but I still can't find everything I want)
I am curious, why is that undesirable for you? I'm assuming there's something more than lack of individual app support for casting.
We also wouldn't get games like Goat Simulator who basically set a low expectation bar in exchange for low cost, best effort game play. I'm kind of ok with more "garbage" if we also get more weird/low budget games that wouldn't exist otherwise.
Things are way different now.
I have been appalled at the way people bend over and open their wallet since I was a preteen. Nordic and all the other rent seeking shits count on people blindly using their product they way they are told to. I'm surprised Nordic isn't suing their customers yet.
On the one hand you're purchasing hardware, which you expect to own and control.
On the other, there is software that runs on a subscription model which 'coincidentally' restricts the functionality of the hardware, because they want to stop people from bypassing the sub.
The hardware effectively becomes useless if the subscription service becomes unavailable or is taken down (e.g. if the company is acquired and the new company doesn't want to support that stuff any more). It might still function mechanically, but it now has a broken appendage through no fault of your own.
I just don't think I could justify a purchase like that nos unless I could square that circle. I'm not going to pay 2k for a Peloton bike that holds itself hostage unless I pay another 40 a month.
Welcome to the Right to Repair movement!
Of course, some tech bro will say that their spoon2.0 is specially engineered for the best soup flavor …
Exclusivity always existed at weird levels, here the issue would be more about having the option to freeze/protect a product's software state to get out of the update treadmill.
That's about any electric car manufactured after 2020.
For example, windows updating. There was an updating when professor gave the talk in class. Windows updating popped out. There is no way for professor to stop the updating. He missed the chance and windows already went into blue updating screen. So, We had a break, and professor went to his office to find another computer.
Another problem is that automatically updating almost always runs silently. When I played online game and the game went laggy, I always tabbed out to see what happened with resource monitor. It is easy to find out there is whatever updating using CPU or bandwidth.
I feel updating just like legally raping my device. Oh. It is OUR device.
I’ve often thought about starting a hardware company that provides all the source code, schematics, bill of materials with the sale of a product. This is a dream and a desire I have for the things that I do buy.
For example, I have several digital cinema film cameras that I do not plan to upgrade or sell. Unfortunately they are showing their age and have some fixable faults. I have spent the last two years to reverse engineering these cameras to identify the fault. If only I had a schematic.
I don’t expect the industry or politics to change any time soon. If only a hardware company could change the status quo by enabling their customers to be enabled to have full ownership and access.
And on top of everything else, customers thought that they could watch whatever they wanted on their attached 32" LCD screen. Why fuck with wall-mounting a TV or a bouncy tablet when they sell a treadmill with the screen built-in?
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- here
- John Deer self-fix stories
- Apple store stories (and Android/Google variations)
- Several flavors of techs at places like best buy quivering in their boots at an Apple fix. Techs keep blabbering on about Apple repair policy and what they cannot do. I finally had to tell the guy: Start telling me what you can do, or I'll talk to somebody else. All I asked for was if they have a screw driver to take the bottom plate off, which I later got off Amazon.
- General issues of privacy
We gotta get back to customer satisfaction. Eventually --- not as quick as we might prefer --- customers will realize they have the stronger position and use it. Indeed, if I plunk down money for an object, my assessment counts. I do not accept some paper pusher a large-corp-America gainsaying that.
I think this is a problem which should have a mostly technical solution: If most software was updated as today and users could rollback at will, most problems would be solved. That's a better way than making updates illegal.
Of course the incentives are totally out of whack, since bundling the updates is cheaper and many UX "improvements" exist to make the company more money, at the expense of the user.
Once users are conditioned or forced to auto-update why wouldn't a profit maximizing company make changes to increase its bottom line, regardless of how it helps or hurts users?
Not great for security though…
No refunds, no apologies, just a game I'd paid 50 dollars for suddenly didn't work any more. Ultimately, still value for money given how many hours I'd ploughed into it before they broke it, but yeah, I think twice now about that kind of purchase.
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That is why I call those devices 'dumb' devices (reminds me of a SciFi book where the AI helpers are called "artifically stupids"). Smart devices are local, no auto-updates, working with no issue in the event of an outage.
I have many smart devices, all that would stop working in the event of an internet outage, would be the voice interface.
"Dumb devices" is already an actual term, already used to refer to non-smart devices, so you are confusing anyone that has not learnt your custom vocabulary.
What about your other devices?
Overreacting aside, control schemes can be customized again in 1.4.
This is much more a question of relying on "off-label" feature / bugs in a product, which will always be an issue. The problem here is that the advertised experience was "you can only use our content" and that should have been enough to scare off potential buyers from considering it as an option.
http://getresponsecode.com
Apparently the algorithm is very simple according to Reddit https://old.reddit.com/r/nordictrack/comments/ozkp8v/privile...
>long responseCode = new Random((long) Integer.parseInt(iFitCode)).nextInt(999999);
It's not a perfect workaround, as it resets on the next boot, but I've seen that people are installing apps such as Taskbar which float overtop the iFit app and start on boot, allowing you to still launch your apps like Netflix etc even without God Mode enabled.
It's only a matter of time before Nordic decides to block this method as well. We should also be looking into how to block updates to these devices.
Maaaybe.
The public statement from them sounds like it was legal whining about liability issues, and if that's actually true (which, well) then if it has to be sufficiently intentional on your part that may be sufficient for them to leave well alone.
Certainly worth preparing for that not being the case though.
snark aside, I'm a bicycle guy and I really like that we have an ecosystem of bluetooth trainers and apps that all work pretty well with each other. Simulating hilly courses is actually really useful and has made me a better rider, so it's not like I'm advocating being a total luddite. While I prefer to ride outdoors in the sun, my area in Iowa is extremely flat and the only difficulty comes from the wind, and I find the new toys are a lot more fun than a dumb trainer with a sufferfest DVD. I don't really know much about the treadmill scene but I hope you guys have access to similar stuff.
I actually don't get the point of getting a 4000 treadmill rather than one that's half the price and an ipad
But really, my understanding is that these fancier treadmills map incline/speed/whatever data to the video file to make it “more realistic”. I think there may even be a sort of MMO/live ghost feature?
Personally I think I’d rather just have music I like and work out at a pace that’s comfortable for me, but to each their own I suppose.
A treadmill to me is just so boring and doesn't feel right compared to actually moving.
Walking outside when it is 10 degrees out with an audio book is still a better experience to me than a treadmill.
My smart rower consists of a C2 Model D sitting in front of an old-school panasonic plasma TV in a spare/theater room. Both components are over 10 years old by now and neither show the slightest signs of giving up the ghost. That TV doesn't even know how to talk to the internet, and I lost the USB cable for the PM4, so everything is effectively off-grid.
If you're into running on a treadmill, this looks like a very sweet setup. It has a huge touch screen that's just in the right spot, you can easily reach it while running, and it has gimmicks like automatic adjustment of inclination.
It's not cheap, but it looks like really nice hardware. I totally understand why some people would want something like that, especially if you can install generic Android apps on it!
The accessory part is also pretty neat though. I use a low end exercise bike that came with a snap-on plastic tablet holder. It works pretty well but it got me thinking about hacking the thing. I was finally able to mount a scanner radio, a ham radio, exercise bands, and my phone along with the tablet. Then my kids decided to take it off my hands for a while...I think Dad looked a little too motivated.
Thanks for the idea. I might get some kind of tablet so I can watch things without moving my (cheap) stationary bike in front of the living room TV.
My current WFH setup includes a Manfrotto 244N magic arm attached with a RAM mount to a Rokform RAM ball that very securely attaches to my Rokform iPhone case. It's clamped to my desk with a Manfrotto 035 SuperClamp. The RAM adapter is P/N RAP-B-366U and the double swivel on the RAM side is a RAP-B-201U . The Rokform part is "Universal Ball Adapter Phone Mount" SKU: 337101
RAM also makes a great iPad "X-Grip" holder, along with tons of different mounts for different situations, especially vehicles and things like exercise bikes (e.g. look for stuff like a "RAM® Double U-Bolt Ball Base for 1" - 1.25" Rails" or indeed their actual handlebar mounts). These are sturdy, pro-level mounts, not the cheap disposable junk from no-name brands on Amazon.
For my Zwift stationary bike setup that I use my old road bike on, I just use a $15 Niteize Handleband to attach my phone plus a Vornado 783DC made-in-USA DC brushless fan to keep the sweat levels low.
Another couple brands worth checking out would be Joby's stuff (I have an old GorillaPod DSLR that holds my webcam these days) and "The Joy Factory" who make pro-level iPad clamps / stands.
The real reason they don't want people using other apps or watching third party videos is because anyone doing that is not spending money on iFit. Or, at least, not as much as they could be. NordicTrack likely discounted these treadmills to squeeze out competitors with the intention of making their money back by locking customers into iFit.
If a few users hack their treadmills, that's not going to hurt NordicTrack's bottom line. If most users are doing it because it's as easy as tapping the screen 10 times, then there's a problem. So, NordicTrack has made it harder to gain admin access. Not impossible. Just harder. More people will go back to spending money on iFit, the determined few will roll up their sleeves, and the business model will be restored.
The problem is that this business model is a bait and switch. When people pay for a treadmill they don't expect to be locked into further monthly payments to unlock its features. It's inherently dishonest, and the victim, aside from users, is the competitor who produces an honest product that's paid for entirely up front and is, hence, more expensive and less competitive.
If it's the former, then they should keep god mode for treadmill service operations inaccessible but also allow loading apps like Netflix and Hulu. I'd wager that streaming apps are what most of the people using god mode want.
For example suppose the UI of a treadmill has a "Last 5 workout programs used" section on the front page of the UI to allow the user to select with one tap a recent program. An update replace that with a "recents..." button which takes you to a new screen that shows the last 10 programs used.
Is no longer providing one tap access to the most recent 5 programs removal of functionality? Or is the feature just that it has a way to recall recent programs so as long as there still is a way to do that, even if more convoluted, it does not count as a feature removal?
How about functionality that was not in the device when it was purchased but was added by an update? If the law does apply to that, then in effect the manufacturer will be locked into only ever adding functionality. After a few updates the UI is probably going to be a total mess.
If the law only applies to features present at purchase, then manufactures will just ship bare bones devices that only implement what is necessary to make the claims on the box and in their advertisements not false. Then the first update will add a ton of stuff to make it more than bare bones.
After a few messes the UI teams will figure out that you have to advertise and implement features in a way that doesn't interfere with user's habit. E.g. has a start screen where you may pin "last 5 workout programs", "recents...", any menu item, and a button to access other functions at top right.
However, we still need to tackle the subscription issue, I.e. That manufacturers can hide behind "you didn't renew the subscription for this printer/treadmill so now we brick it". Any ideas?
Like most of things in life, the answer is very rarely a new myopic and ill-conceived law added to the thick stack of existing incomprehensible legislation.
It doesn't. It means that functionality cannot be changed in a degrading way, but upgrading and non-conflicting security updates are still allowed.
For a customer, money upfront and money over time is the same (adjusting for the interest rate). They don't need just a dead brick, whatever it costs in production. When your saas stops having a feature, you stop paying. This is no different, except that I'd vote for a law which amortized the upfront cost to the real usage time. E.g. I bought a treadmill with 2-year warranty for $4000 and it stopped doing a claimed feature after a year (iow, became broken from my perspective). I either receive a service which returns the feature, or get $2000 back + 20% fine for inconvenience.
To my knowledge the first high-profile instance of this was when Sony updated the PS3 to remove Linux support, which resulted in a successful class-action in the US. [0]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS
The way class action is done in the US it only makes sense for the law firms.
I have stacks of class action letters and in almost every case I get exactly zero...
Consumers who don't want products to have features disappear. The main thing class action suites accomplish is punishing the offender so that potential offenders in the future think twice.
I was pleasantly surprised when I got around $250 CAD from a Lenovo class action suit. I bought one of their consumer laptops that had a piece of crapware on it. It was big news when it happened. Otherwise, I normally get maybe $20 for the class actions that I sign up for.
>I don't have much sympathy for the people abusing the system
I disagree with the premise that it's unethical to use a product I purchase and own from a for-profit company for a use that turned out not to be profitable for it. Note that it wasn't much of a hack; Sony sold consoles with the option to install another operating system from its menu [0].
Since the move was so unprofitable to it, Sony should not have offered the option to users in the first place. But since it happened, executives at Sony then just decided that it made business sense for Sony to disable the option in a firmware update.
I just don't understand the framing where it's as if Sony did a favor for its customers who then "took advantage," when Sony just miscalculated a business policy to serve its own self-interest.
[0] https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/sony-settles-over-insta...
Sony's removal of OtherOS wasn't just deceptive and an abuse of customers' trust, it was conspiracy to commit customs and tax fraud.
Also, while I bought my PS3 to learn parallel programming, I found that it wasn't that great for it. The CBE was really unintuitive, there was only framebuffer access to the GPU-RSX chipset, and with just 256MB RAM, $600 would have been better put towards a dual core CPU and any discrete GPU if you wanted a functional Linux computer.
> The block on privilege mode was automatically installed because we believe it enhances security and safety while using fitness equipment that has multiple moving parts,
Looked at Peloton, but it's about twice as much as an erg up front, has running costs each month, and what seemed to be many more points of failure (which includes the electronics). The Concept2[0] is a tank that should last me a very long time. Space is an issue (I had to shove my dining table to the side), but the workout is amazing and I have a lot of faith in the machine to last. Plus it has a pretty straightforward bluetooth connection if I want to get data out and multiple USB and ethernet ports on the very simple monitor it came with.
[0] https://www.roguefitness.com/black-concept-2-rowerg-rower-pm...
https://imgur.com/a/HDE0939
[0] https://www.concept2.com/service/software/software-developme...
It's amazing to me just how (relatively) cheap the Concept2 is. Solid, well made, and reliable.