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andrewla commented on The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline   bloomberg.com/news/articl... · Posted by u/alephnerd
slfnflctd · 8 hours ago
My thoughts on this have always been a blend of your two 'they should not be deported' scenarios, with a slow, measured rollout.

Sudden changes cause too much chaos, and you don't always know what works until you try it. Avoiding entitlement abuse is always going to be part of the conversation, and it seems to me the fix for this (and nearly any other issue) needs to be approached carefully from both the supply and demand sides until what's effective is more clear.

andrewla · 5 hours ago
I guess where we differ is that I believe that we've tried the other side and found it wanting. You can say that the Biden asylum catch-and-release policies did not include entitlement reform or worker protections so they don't count, but what it shows me is that too many moving parts mean that only the worst aspects of the worst solution are what get implemented. The simplest solution is securing the border and deporting illegal immigrants.
andrewla commented on The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline   bloomberg.com/news/articl... · Posted by u/alephnerd
epistasis · 7 hours ago
You link to an October 2025 article documenting 9 "Kavanaugh stops" to somehow claim that they don't happen?

You link to an article that is "We Found That More Than 170 U.S. Citizens Have Been Held by Immigration Agents. They’ve Been Kicked, Dragged and Detained for Days." and which has reporting inside that describes the 170 cases of ICE detaining citizens.

Note that detainment is more severe and different from the harassment of the 9 that you somehow claim refute Kavanaugh stops.

But even if the article were as you incorrectly describe it, it would be fallacious to say that because a single article doesn't describe something, it doesn't exist! That's a critical thinking and logic 101 error. And far far below the standards of HN comments.

andrewla · 5 hours ago
If you read the footnotes in the article, it is apparent that somewhere between 0 and 9 of the incidents described are Kavanaugh stops. The article is trying to play up the situation in order to cater to their audience, but they have sufficient journalistic integrity to tell the truth amidst the spin.

Yes, there may be more of them, but in this particular article that was the most that they could find, and they were clearly trying to find them -- they even include 130 stops that they themselves say are of people who were obstructing or interfering with ICE operations. This is not good, but it's a pretty far cry from bystanders being harassed on the sidewalk for having an accent or the wrong skin color.

Link me a better source that describes or accounts the number of these stops and I'll update my comments and move my priors appropriately.

andrewla commented on The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline   bloomberg.com/news/articl... · Posted by u/alephnerd
jbeam · 6 hours ago
> They menace and threaten "people just out and about in the neighborhood"? It is hard to engage in good faith when you are baldly making statements that are completely unsupported.

There are no shortage of videos showing ICE agents on roaming patrols in Minnesota -- and elsewhere -- menacing anyone they come across who appears undesirable. All you have to do is not look away.

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/880/what-is-your-emergency

andrewla · 6 hours ago
Would you mind linking to some of the videos? You link here to an episode of This American Life featuring 911 calls.

While disturbing to listen to, without context, I don't hear anything to substantiate the claim of ICE agents menacing anyone they come across.

All the videos I've seen, [1], [2], [3], for example, from a quick check, are ICE reacting unprofessionally and with excessive force against people who are deliberately attempting to obstruct or interfere with them. Let's not play games here and say that they are menacing innocent people walking down the sidewalk. That's not to say that these assaults are justified or appropriate, but let's start the conversation in a good faith position, and not make up bullshit about ICE walking around menacing innocent bystanders.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5aK7o6fEJg

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5w05TcQIVQ

[3] https://www.youtube.com/shorts/tOaJAd3lkdM

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andrewla commented on The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline   bloomberg.com/news/articl... · Posted by u/alephnerd
epistasis · 9 hours ago
For anybody looking on, this sort of Big Lie behavior is extremely common in the US these days. All that crazy stuff Europeans are seeing with JD Vance and Trump's Greenland behvaior is what everyday Americans experience on a wide range of topics.

Having somebody link to a source that directly refutes their own claims, while acting indignant, is something I've experienced multiple times in the past week! It's quite shocking.

When the Trump administration went so hard on open lies that are directly contradicted by videos we all saw of ICE events, it was vice-signaling that started even greater amounts of bearing false witness. Openly lying seems to signal "in-group" status these days, like the sign in the green grocer's shop[1]. Get people to lie about the evidence they see with their eyes, and the become completely controlled, because to do so is to have total subservience to their master. No more eyes or ears except for those of their master. People that used to have values slowly abandon them, all in service to the lie that they are living. "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command."

That is the state of the US at the moment. I have hope that we can return to our former sanity, or at least ensure that the reigns of power are in the hands of normal, centrist people instead of the extreme fringes, but it is in no way certain.

[1] As Carney recently referenced from Vaclav Havel; here's a recentish essay on it: https://hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/the-power-of-the-powerless-v...

andrewla · 8 hours ago
For anybody looking on, THIS sort of Big Lie behavior is extremely common in the US these days.

Having a source that makes a false claim as a headline but refutes their own claims, while acting indignant, is extremely common in a media landscape that wants to signal their "in-group" status.

andrewla commented on The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline   bloomberg.com/news/articl... · Posted by u/alephnerd
throwawayohio · 9 hours ago
> If you claim to be changing your life in any way in response to this then you're just putting a fig leaf on decisions that you've already made.

How insulting. Bad faith arguments have become way too prevalent on this site.

andrewla · 8 hours ago
I will remove that accusation in the interests of not distracting from my main point. I don't know you and the particulars of your situation and apologize for an unsupported insinuation.
andrewla commented on The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline   bloomberg.com/news/articl... · Posted by u/alephnerd
epistasis · 9 hours ago
There are such deep contradictions in these thoughts. You think that the illegal immigrant is going to starve without the criminal employer? When just a second ago you were saying they should be deported, and that "most" people think that's OK?

We all lose when these immigrants are deported, and every mass deportation means simultaneously a mass deprivation of rights and a mess of big mistakes that ruin people's families and lives.

andrewla · 9 hours ago
What can I say, I contain multitudes.

I think that yes, they should be deported. This is not a punishment.

If your solution is that they should not be deported, but employers should be prosecuted, then you're saying that you want the immigrants to starve.

If your solution is that they should not be deported, but we should extend labor protections to them and force employers to hire them legally, then I think there is some merit to this. This is closer to the libertarian open borders argument, and I once found it very appealing. Entitlement abuse is the main argument against here in my mind.

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andrewla commented on The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline   bloomberg.com/news/articl... · Posted by u/alephnerd
rectang · 9 hours ago
You think only non-citizens are under assault? Are you familiar with “Kavanaugh Stops”?
andrewla · 9 hours ago
Yes, the idea of Kavanaugh Stops is problematic. The problem is that they are not happening.

Even ProPublica's reporting [1], while in the headline claiming these stops are problematic, reveals that there are a whopping 9 cases that they've found where racial profiling appears to be a factor.

[1] https://www.propublica.org/article/immigration-dhs-american-...

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u/andrewla

KarmaCake day9235March 22, 2011View Original