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Posted by u/Peretus 5 years ago
Ask HN: Have you been laid off?
I work remotely as a front-end developer at a VC-funded, series B startup. Funding has dried up as investors with financial exposure to anything retail or entertainment-related are hemorrhaging cash. The company leadership told us that starting immediately, all employees (including the fully-remote workers like myself) are on mandatory unpaid leave.

Job cuts in 2019 were already up a whopping 351% from the previous year[1]. Considering the COVID-19 outbreak, I'm concerned that many other tech workers like me might be updating their resumes and entering a stagnant job market. Alternatively, organizations may view this as a great time to gain additional market share. What do you think?

If you're a tech worker, have you been laid off or do you expect to be laid off soon? If you are a hiring manager, what is the current hiring status at your company?

[1] https://www.challengergray.com/press/press-releases/2019-year-end-job-cuts-report-fewest-monthly-cuts-july-2018-yoy-10

Rebles · 5 years ago
At the beginning of the year, I decided it was time to find a new job after 10 years with my employer. I spent February doing interview prep and conducting interviews. Back then, the COVID-19 was mostly limited to China, markets and governments weren't terribly concerned about COVID-19.

I accept a job offer, put in my two weeks notice, and my last day at was last Friday. Hardly anyone was seriously concerned about COVID-19 when I gave notice. A week later, business travel was suspended and WFH policies implemented. My last day, schools were closing, and the economy tanked. This week, we're sheltering in place.

I gave myself 3 weeks in between the old and the new job, you know for relaxation and travel. Instead, I'm sequestered to my house for 3 weeks.

Everyday, the news got worse and worse and continues to get worse and worse. Now, I'm in between jobs, and am a little worried my new employer will revoke my job offer. To add insult to injury, one reason I didn't leave my previous job was job security. But in February, there wasn't any sign of an economic downturn. Everyone was enjoying the bull market.

ccajas · 5 years ago
I have been laid off just before 2015 and I haven't found any stable work since then. I have been under-employed for a long while before the outbreak, and I don't even know what new change-ups in job hunting I should be doing now.

For a long time, many people have said that my years of experience make me valuable so that I should have gotten offers very quickly, but the reality hasn't shown that. Heck, even the founder of the startup company has told me, when I asked for his reference, that he was "very confused" that I haven't found any work for so long. And that was only a year in.

He unfortunately can't give me work anymore as he's tied up with his business. He did consider me for a follow-up freelance job before, but that was more due to a technicality that they needed a US developer for a particular job.

After being evaluated on mock interviews, turns out I'm in the peculiar situation where I am too underqualified for my years. But at least I have some experience working remote that should make me more appealing to employers.

I just can't call it impostor syndrome anymore if I consistently fail at getting full-time offers even when the economic climate was good.

29athrowaway · 5 years ago
My algorithm:

1) Decide which software engineering related role you want to work on (e.g. web frontends)

2) Enumerate the top skills that are relevant to that role by visiting job postings in companies you would like to work for. e.g.: React.

3) Enumerate the subset of those skills that you have. Those are your strenghts. Work in acquiring the skills you do not yet have. Those are your weaknesses (for now).

4) Visit Linkedin profiles for random employed people in such roles in various companies you would like to work for. Compare that to your own Linkedin profile.

5) In your profile, emphasize your strengths, deemphasize your weaknesses, while working on them in your spare time. And most importantly, list your skills using the skills feature. Recruiters use that to find people.

Personally I think you should leave out all mentions to "looking for a job" and such. That is a red flag. You do not want to tell recruiters that your skills are in low demand.

Also try to keep your job descriptions consistent and relevant to your target role. Rather than "role 1/role 2/role 3", just pick the most favorable/relevant description for role and stick with that.

It usually takes me 1 month to find a job.

inlined · 5 years ago
“Under qualified for your years” is ageist bullshit. You’re either a capable L3,4,5,etc. Any coupling of those achievement brackets to age ranges (which cannot be completely detached from experience level) is discrimination.
idoby · 5 years ago
Don't take this the wrong way (I'm trying to help, might fail but intentions are good) but it seems to me that the real reason you are having a hard time finding a "job" is because you have a history of leaving jobs after a short tenure.

I wrote "job" because working as a salaried employee is not the only way to make a living, or have a successful career. Consider that the freelance/contractor career you're currently having is 1) a career and 2) might be a better fit for you. Furthermore, some contractors I know make a lot more money than most of my salaried friends. The tradeoff being, of course, that you have no guarantees wrt to steadiness of your income (protip: salaried jobs come with no guarantees either, you could be out the next day, any day) and sometimes you have to chase down projects and deal with bad customers.

Sorry if something came out wrong, English isn't my first language.

murukesh_s · 5 years ago
I glanced over your LinkedIn profile, to me it looks like you need to add more 'modern' tech skills to your profile. It sucks, but the industry moves to new tech quickly and unless you are an enterprise Java developer, your skills get pretty much outdated in few years and you need to catch up at a fast pace.

I would learn (or highlight it if you already know) React.js and Node.js immediately, along with Postgres and MongoDB. That should get a good boost to the resume.

If you are going full stack, you would definitely need to put in AWS, especially micro services and serverless experience along with golang if possible. You can also learn Python if you want to try your hands on Machine learning as well, but I would recommend just focussing on React and Node.js as they are low hanging fruits and there are good enough openings for those two alone..

I have been in your shoes before and I know it could be overwhelming but you can do it.

https://github.com/kamranahmedse/developer-roadmap

nwsm · 5 years ago
It sounds like you've gotten enough positive feedback to know you're not an imposter. Sounds like it's your interview skills or first impression?
avan · 5 years ago
This is immensely forward but if you would like any help with your resume or interviewing I would be more than happy to help. I am no recruiting expert I believe I have some skill that may be useful. I've changed jobs every 18 months (by choice) for the past 6-7 years or so and I've interviewed with about 10x that many companies. No pressure, just wanting to help out.
mikorym · 5 years ago
Not sure if this will help you, but just putting it out there: Getting a job via a referral will boost your chances by quite a bit.

I am not sure what your core skills are, but in my case if I want to go work for a bank, via referral I get an immediate response (and even one other bank intercepts the referral).

Without a referral I don't even get a response.

fiddlerwoaroof · 5 years ago
The company I work for is looking for software engineers in the LA or Chicago areas, email me if you want more details :). Our product isn’t the most glamorous, but we take work/life balance really seriously.
ethanfinni · 5 years ago
I hate to say this but working for startups really warps everyone's sense of level and career progression. Startup management cares to retain talent and they often give out titles (Senior, Director, VP) like confetti. If you really want to know where you are, the old-school behemoths (e.g. IBM, Lockheed etc) tend to have better (and more rigid) levels.
rpastuszak · 5 years ago
I quit my job in mid January because of burnout, left London for a couple of weeks and came back this Sunday.

I’m looking for remote roles exclusively. Now I’m not sure if the timing is perfect or just plain terrible:)

Also, I stopped reading the news. I just don’t think refreshing Twitter every 10 min whilst self isolating can be good to your mental health.

poooogles · 5 years ago
Depending upon what you're looking for we might be able to help. ML company in London that's open to fully remote people.

(email in profile)

pmontra · 5 years ago
Working from remote is probably the only way for at least weeks if not months.

And yes, don't check the news too often. The real world doesn't move as fast as the refresh button.

baby · 5 years ago
I need to stop reading the news too, I’m in pretty deep now...
krupan · 5 years ago
I think every time is remote right now, and could be for months. I'm hoping that by then everyone will be more open to keeping roles remote
101404 · 5 years ago
Regarding Tw: as with all social media, it very much depends who you follow.
PopeDotNinja · 5 years ago
Start interviewing again. Seriously. Worst case scenario your new job works out. That's pretty good downside.
Rebles · 5 years ago
This is solid advice. If I'm afraid of losing my future job, then, better start looking now! Thanks!
samfisher83 · 5 years ago
A lot of companies have stopped travel, interview, vendor visits.
fokinsean · 5 years ago
If it makes you feel better, I quite a cushy job and joined a startup a month ago. You're not the only one with bad timing :)
emit_time · 5 years ago
Same position here. Thankfully starting at a FAANG, so less likely to see layoffs than smaller more vulnerable companies. Scheduled to start on 3/30
adam_fallon_ · 5 years ago
I left work due to burnout and wanted to try my hand at doing something creative - creating a new product.

Had some time set aside for travel before I started, but then this all happened.

Could not have picked a less convenient time to try and travel and make money off SaaS / AppStore.

I remain optimistic and am expecting to learn so much more than I would have in the more comfortable market we are now leaving behind.

To health and family first though.

Bubbadoo · 5 years ago
Actually, it's especially good timing to be starting a business during a financial crisis. I know, I've lived through 1987, 1993, 1998, 2002, 2008 and now c-19.

During these times when people are getting RIF'd (Reduction in Force), they're understandably panicked, nervous, in shock, etc. Most employees are not thinking of what service or product they can cobble together and bring to market, but how to swiftly rejoin the job market.

This leads to a shortage of new startups spinning up as well, because the economy has gone to the dumpster. Good times, bull markets and strong economies make everyone feel more confident. Who wants to gamble when the world is going to hades in a handbasket? Not a lot of people.

Then there's the cost factor. My experience during past financial implosions, demand for everything plummets. I get the idea we're living in more of a robber-baron era than even just 5 years ago, but still, you'll be able to negotiate everything from office rents to infrastructure, salaries of new hires, hotels and airfares for business travel.

Obviously, I am going to throw my hat into this ring for these very reasons. Good luck and good day!

seige · 5 years ago
Similar situation. DM if you want to explore a collaboration.
_bxg1 · 5 years ago
Could you check-in with the new company? I'm in a similar situation and checked-in with mine, and they said they were happy to onboard me remotely, no problem.
Rebles · 5 years ago
Yeah. I've checked in. They're planning on shipping my laptop to me on my start date. Everything is fine–for now. But things have changed so dramatically day by day, it's hard to know where we'll be in 2 and a half weeks. I worry when I see the markets dropping 7% every other day. I read stories how non-tech industries are cancelling job offers during this time. I think my future employer is well insulated, being a tech company. We'll see!
toomuchtodo · 5 years ago
Ask your old employer if your role is still available. Plans change, and if you left on good terms, they might be amiable to your return if you need that option.
Rebles · 5 years ago
If my new employer bails, I might consider this. But I would probably try to find a new new job before then. Also, my boss wanted me to confirm 3 times what my last day would be, because, once he put it in the system, his hands were tied. I guess the LDO (Last day of office) process is pretty streamlined to tie up all the loose ends: halting pay checks, revoking unvested RSUs, stopping medical benefits, revoking user entitlements, etc.

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wbrasky · 5 years ago
I was in the process of a job search while working at a foundering startup back in December. Interview processes were paused over the holidays and scheduled to resume in early January. Jan. 2, first day back at the old job, I was laid off. Had my final interview at another startup the following week and got an offer. Started end of January. We're all WFH for at least 2 weeks, and it's beginning to look like much longer than that. We've got connections to the retail sector, so I do wonder about that, but we have seen at least a short-term uptick in activity, presumably due to hoarding. Fingers crossed we all make it through this.
hisfastness · 5 years ago
Sorry to hear. I'm in a similar situation. I left Microsoft and moved to a new country a few months ago without having a job lined up specifically because I wanted time off for burnout and to learn development (my background is in QA and Program Management). I'll stay the course for self-teaching development but I may need to expedite the job hunt in lieu of the recession. We can commiserate together :)
eropple · 5 years ago
> But in February, there wasn't any sign of an economic downturn. Everyone was enjoying the bull market.

First: I’m super sorry about what you’re going through and I hope things work out with your new employer.

Second: I worry that “nobody could have known” will be the narrative. A very large portion of my circles was aware that COVID was about to explode and that the prevention measures would either drastically slow the economy or not be taken and the impact would be worse. Super uncontroversial. And like, I’m just a guy.

On an individual level, that excuse is unfortunate, but the individual level doesn’t matter much (except for the individual, of course). On an institutional and a governance level, we’re likely to excuse the failures of our leaders because we ourselves weren’t paying attention.

pnathan · 5 years ago
>Second: I worry that “nobody could have known” will be the narrative. A very large portion of my circles was aware that COVID was about to explode and that the prevention measures would either drastically slow the economy or not be taken and the impact would be worse. Super uncontroversial. And like, I’m just a guy.

Big same. I'm just another software engineer, albeit one with a taste for international news and a few China-focused specialists & one or two PRCs citizens that I follow on Twitter.

This was predictable in early-mid Jan. Once the pics and discussion of the overloaded Wuhan hospitals and the measures the PRC had to take hit the English language world, it was pretty bloody obvious. The news had hit the popular English language papers by Jan 27[1], although I was reading about it somewhat earlier - Jan 12 at the latest[2]. A timeline can be found in [3]. Anyway, by Feb 1, institutions with a specialty in disease control should have been going full bore to address the incoming wave.

Our public health officials, the officials they advise, and other health institutions should be held up to scrutiny and not covered with glory dust just because they had to act by the pace of events.

[1] https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7933719/Incredible-... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/11/china-mystery-... [3] https://www.who.int/csr/don/12-january-2020-novel-coronaviru...

tcgv · 5 years ago
> A very large portion of my circles was aware that COVID was about to explode (...)

Your circles seem to be the exception then. There are a lot of factors that affect personal perception of such matters, like proximity to inflicted areas, professional background (ex: medical), experiencing similar events in the past, etc.

In hindsight it seems obvious that the world wasn't paying attention. But it took until February for western countries to realize the epidemic was already out of control, and the markets reacted.

> prevention measures would either drastically slow the economy or not be taken and the impact would be worse

Anyone that knew this last month without a doubt could've made tons of money shorting positions in the stock market.

georgemcbay · 5 years ago
My "circles" (which include a friend married to a Médecins Sans Frontières doctor who had been in Wuhan last October) knew that COVID-19 was possibly a serious concern, but also "knew" that it could have wound up as another SARS (not that SARS wasn't terrible, but it was also very localized in terms of overall impact).

I don't think we should excuse the many failures of our leaders, but I also don't think the now-obvious economic impact of this crisis was that clearcut even a month ago.

101404 · 5 years ago
Maybe you should have told every single government in the world, because none predicted that it would have this huge of an impact. SARS1 pretty much stayed in China, MERS pretty much stayed in the Middle East. It was only when a country like Italy was caught by surprise that governments started to consider very far reaching measures.

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phnofive · 5 years ago
Depending on the country and an observer’s cynicism, I think the majority of nations understood early on that it was already far too late to significantly dampen the impact of such a deadly and infectious virus.

The United States government was thoroughly informed of this risk via Operation Dark Winter but never geared up for it - perhaps this is best managed by states once the infection crosses the border, but preparations on those levels weren’t completed either.

reidjs · 5 years ago
It’s not possible to predict the future, so I disagree with your stance that it was obvious a virus could cause an economic downturn like this. It comes across as victim blaming to me.
traitsnspecs · 5 years ago
If we had not taken prevention measures, the economic impact would be worse? I'm very skeptical of this. Keeps in mind that the disease has a 2-4% mortality rate among hospitalized patients, and the real rate is very likely to go down, not up, since most sick people do not immediately go to the hospital and there is an unknown-but-surmised-be-very-large population of infected people with mild symptoms.

There is a real chance that our lockdown will kill more people through stress-induced heart attacks, suicides, and general fallout from food and income insecurity than the virus would have.

My only takeaway from all of this is that our hospital system is really, really bad at handling any kind of temporary spike in disease or death. And I'm upset with our governor for panicking and putting the entire service industry out of a job, which may actually cause harm to them in great numbers beyond a probably sub-1% chance of dying from a flu-like illness.

trimbo · 5 years ago
Tough spot... best of luck to you. Hopefully that job still comes through.
cyberpunk · 5 years ago
Same boat. Don't panic. From my end, I'm due to start a new gig on monday and everyone at my new client/employer currently has out of office replies when I email them about the procedure for the first day....

Which is brilliant... :/

Fortunately they're rather a hitech company so I hope we can just work remotely.

Still have to go and collect laptop and rsa certs and such though...

UncleOxidant · 5 years ago
I was doing drone control software (RPi based) for a startup that ran out of funding last November. They told me that they were going to keep looking for investors/funding and if they got money they'd call me back to work immediately. And there were some promising signs in December/January that they might get some funding. So, since I liked them, they liked me, and the gig was fun I figured I'd put off looking for other work until later in the Spring just to see if they get the funding. Welp, now I really doubt they're going to get that funding.
WrtCdEvrydy · 5 years ago
Name of startup? This sounds fun.
drakonka · 5 years ago
I am in a similar boat. Resigned just before this hit. I am still working out my notice at my current job and my new employer assures me everything is fine, but I still feel like I picked the craziest possible time to finally move after eight years at one company! Oh well, fingers crossed for both of us.
thdespou · 5 years ago
Dejavu. I'm in exactly the same situation.
yosito · 5 years ago
I was in a similar situation. My new employer revoked my job offer on the day I was supposed to start.
sshine · 5 years ago
I'm in the exact same situation.
Miktor · 5 years ago
This is probably a long shot - and I'm sure you'll see quite a few posts like this over the coming weeks - but I'm going to swallow my pride and ask nonetheless.

I've been a data entry clerk for the past twenty years, working for a major bookmaker in Northern Ireland. With the coronavirus pandemic hitting recently, many businesses have decided to lay off large numbers of staff. I've just become one of the unfortunate victims of one of these layoffs today, with a mortgage to pay, a wife and two young children to support.

I've also been programming, in my own time, over the past seven years or so, in Python 3, Javascript and PHP mainly. Over that time I've developed a number of tools that were used in my former place of employ, to scrape data from websites and automate the process of data entry. I've also built some online tools in Javascript and PHP for scraping/munging data. Most recently, until the coronavirus hit and unemployment loomed, I was working on a Mario/NES style level editor in HTML5 and a random tile generator for building platformer levels, while I learned C++ and wrote a platforming engine to develop a platform game for release on Steam.

I've placed a number of these tool in public repos on github. You can check them out at:

https://github.com/Zleet

I've also got a resume ready to go for anyone that's interested. What I'm looking for is any remote programming job that fits my skillset and will enable me to keep a roof over my family's head and food in the cupboard for the next few months.

I apologise for posting something like this here. I've been reading hacker news for years now. It's my favourite website. But, along with many other people right now, I'm in a pretty bad place and I've got several little people relying on me to put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads. Be assured that any job offer right now would be gratefully accepted.

Cheers,

Miktor

burlesona · 5 years ago
Hey Miktor,

It was quite a while ago now, but I got into software from almost the exact same place you're in now: I'd been laid off in my previous career, and I needed a job really bad. I'd been hacking stuff on the side, and I used that as my resume. I found that Stack Overflow Jobs had a lot of remote options, as well as sites like We Work Remotely. It's worth applying to a handful of companies and writing a good cover letter just telling them your story and how excited you are to move into software. I think you'll be successful.

Best of luck!

WFHRenaissance · 5 years ago
Apply for jobs at defense contractors, they're always looking for people that know C++. It will not be glamorous work, but I think it might be a good bet for you. Raytheon Missile Systems is hiring in Tuscon Arizona, inquire about remote work. Also, I recommend you learn SQL (just learn SQL Server or Postgres).
_bohm · 5 years ago
OP specified they live in Northern Ireland so it is unlikely they will be able to get a job with an American defense contractor as a non-citizen who can't obtain a security clearance.
dippersauce · 5 years ago
I know Lockheed Martin is also hiring for software developers in the East US, might be worth a look. A job is a job, and the culture at the company doesn't seem too bad.
jeremyjh · 5 years ago
I've never seen a job listing for C++ development that doesn't require professional experience in that language.
atomicnumber3 · 5 years ago
You could check out Stripe, they are hiring for both Remote and they have a Dublin office.

https://stripe.com/jobs/search?t=engineering%2Cproduct-and-t...

Disclaimer: Just started at Stripe.

martijn_himself · 5 years ago
Hi Miktor,

I'm really sorry to hear about your situation! I'm in Northern Ireland too and I'm lucky to be employed (for now) and WFH. All I can do is ask around for you if you drop me an e-mail!

Cheers,

Martijn

Miktor · 5 years ago
Thanks very much Martijn. Will email my resume. Cheers.
crooked-v · 5 years ago
To go with JavaScript and PHP, definitely pick up some SQL (doesn't matter much which variety, they're all similar enough). That can get you a foot in the door for "mostly premade CMS with some custom extension" jobs. It's not glamorous, but it's what a lot of local businesses are looking for (often even if they don't know it yet). My tool of choice for such work is Craft CMS (https://craftcms.com).
orblivion · 5 years ago
Well, here's a long shot for a long shot (this isn't me): https://twitter.com/johnmclear/status/1238603850417934337 Not sure if it fits your skill set but perhaps worth checking out? At least to hold you over?
jpknoll · 5 years ago
As someone else posted above, I also work remotely at Stripe. I'd be happy to refer you. Send me an email if you're interested.
leandot · 5 years ago
Hi Miktor, if you'd like to be contacted you should add contact information in your "about" section.
reidweb · 5 years ago
hi there,

Fellow NI resident here

I can recommend joining the NI tech slack if you want, there's a jobs channel and plenty of other people who'd be willing to give you advice. https://nitech.herokuapp.com

all the best in the coming weeks and months for both you and your family

Miktor · 5 years ago
Hi Reid.

Already on it, thanks. Posted something in freelance and jobs channels yesterday, going to try again today.

dang · 5 years ago
All: a user emailed with the brilliant suggestion that HN do a "Who Is Hiring Right Now?" thread. We'll do that soon; maybe tomorrow. This will specifically be for jobs that are ready to hire, and able to onboard, quickly.

If any of you have suggestions for how to make this most helpful under current conditions, please share them. I'll check this thread later tonight.

roskilli · 5 years ago
Very interested as someone looking to work with other HN folks, ready to hire people who could onboard and start during the work from home mandate (we had an employee onboard Monday from their home).
mehrdadn · 5 years ago
It might be helpful to highlight whichever of the following are feasible:

- Remote work (even across the country, with no expectation of travel)

- Short-term work (like a few months, no expectation of staying for > 1 year)

- How long the employer roughly expects to be able to provide the job in their projection of the current economic conditions

- Rough company size, given the US Congress just passed a bill concerning sick leave that might not apply to companies with under 50 or 500 employees [1]

Also, less certain about the following, but:

- Maybe highlighting contractor possibilities would be good too? In case the additional flexibility in e.g. work hours is better for workers, or in case it's easier for companies not to have to worry about insurance, etc.

[1] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/paulmcleod/coronavirus-...

smoyer · 5 years ago
Perfect time to test an alternate way to conduct interviews too. Give several of the second round candidates paid work on something you actually need to have done (perhaps pick tasks that are a sprint away). It should be a great test of both who can produce working code with tests (production code is way different than white-board pseudocode) as well as who can stay on task remotely. I can't imagine paying three people for the same work would cost more than flying them to your office and torturing them for a day or two. The one downside I can see is that currently out-of-work developers should be happy for a bit of 1099 work. Those who are looking to change jobs may not be so amenable.
dx034 · 5 years ago
As a non American, may I ask why the sick leave policy only applies to companies with 50-500 employees? I couldn't find explanations there. Exempting small companies is often done as they likely cannot pay for this measure, but why exempt large companies too?
meritt · 5 years ago
As the owner of a fully remote, revenue-funded, and profitable startup that wants to hire, my concern is one that won't be particularly well received. I don't want to hire people, yet, because they're still thinking that https://levels.fyi is realistic. I'd rather wait a few rough months, have the pool of talent grow rapidly and people will start realizing that maybe paying $350k to a green React dev isn't very sustainable.

We're going headlong into a recession and I imagine an overwhelming number of firms are going to take the same stance.

randomdude402 · 5 years ago
IMO, if you are fully remote, you might look at it the other way around. The ridiculous salaries are mostly in California and one or two other places.

Those places might realize that they can get react devs for a dime a dozen out of bootcamps all over the country for a third of that in a few months once they have let people do fully remote work for a while.

The smart thing would seem to be to hire them now before the companies with bigger pockets start driving remote salaries up in the other 45 states.

jbjohns · 5 years ago
Paying $350k to a junior just starting out isn't sustainable but those numbers look closer to what the numbers should like like or even be low. What your work is worth is a function of the level of value you produce so software developers are probably still ridiculously underpaid.

What is it that owners do that is worth billions exactly, when developers should be happy with less than the numbers you presented?

vertis · 5 years ago
Those numbers are insane.
meheleventyone · 5 years ago
It’s kinda scary people with the ability to react and reduce suffering whilst also benefiting in kind are willing to exploit a global emergency and use that suffering to justify coming out a little ahead.
dillonmckay · 5 years ago
So, I am sure there are few of us that have lived through the dotcom and 9/11 bust.

That being said, if history repeats itself, there is a decent chance some of these jobs will be short-lived, then move on to the next, which also will not last, and a cooling off period.

I am not trying to be negative, I just think it is wise to consider not just the job, but the industry, its customers, and how it handles its cashflow, and how that relates to limited physical contact for the foreseeable future.

dang · 5 years ago
One could also call that a positive, since short-term work to bring in immediate money is what a lot of people are needing right now.
JUSTed · 5 years ago
This could drive a lot of interest. I just wanted to highlight the importance of mentioning the geographical location of where the employer will be recruiting from (remote global, remote US, remote EU, etc.), because I’ve seen many companies ignore this detail and it’s a complete waste of time to write personalized résumés and letters of application, only to be told that they can’t hire outside the USA, despite the fact that I’ve incorporated myself as the equivalent of an LLC in order to make it easier for them to complete the process.
infinite8s · 5 years ago
If you've incorporated as an LLC equivalent, they are no longer hiring you but engaging in a business - business transaction, which is governed by contract law instead of employment law. That doesn't always make it easier (and also usually comes out of a completely different part of a company's budget).
lukasm · 5 years ago
https://github.com/lukasz-madon/awesome-remote-job

There is an issue in my repo with a really good spreadsheet contaning a lot of companies. I was planning to import that but havent got time and now im stuck in Japan with just my phone.

abinaya_rl · 5 years ago
Woah, that's great resource. I just added https://remoteleaf.com and created a PR -> https://github.com/lukasz-madon/awesome-remote-job/pull/628
abinaya_rl · 5 years ago
I would love to manual curate every remote job going to get posted on this new thread and release it for free just like I did for an earlier thread. https://remoteleaf.com/whoishiring
treve · 5 years ago
I would be very interest in a variant that's looking for non-fulltime. It's getting tougher as a freelancer too
dang · 5 years ago
Have you looked at the freelancer threads that the whoishiring account posts monthly? They don't get as much frontpage time but they're there.

Edit: if anybody has an idea about how to let more people know about those, as well as the "Who Wants To Be Hired" threads, I'd like to hear it. The problem is that frontpage space is the scarcest resource on HN, and it's hard to justify using 3 of those slots for whoishiring posts.

Jonathanyeap · 5 years ago
For those in Singapore? http://bit.ly/2WkQj45

- just a simple google form and spreadsheet?

jacob_rezi · 5 years ago
If I can help anyway with rezi - please let me know. https://rezi.io
n-exploit · 5 years ago
This would be an extremely valuable addition. Please consider it.
porkloin · 5 years ago
Just found yesterday out that I'm being laid off at the end of the month.

Sadly, I wholeheartedly believe that the owners are using the coronavirus as an excuse to close their already-failing company. The company has been in slow-motion dissolution for the better part of a year, and now they're blaming the entire thing on the virus outbreak so that they have a narrative to tell that covers up some of the mismanagement that makes the closure of their company look bad. Now they have an effective smokescreen that shows that the closure was "outside of their control".

I have no doubt that many other companies will take advantage of this opportunity to close without the shame or stigma of having closed a failing company. There is almost no downside to using this as a guilt-free chance to rapidly shut down at a time where employees need stability more than ever.

All of that said, the company was conscientious enough to give us all two weeks' notice, pay out our PTO plans (that might just be required by law, though), and additionally pay out any pending bonuses to employees that had been agreed upon. They certainly didn't have to do all of that (even if some parts are just them following the law), and I appreciate them for taking those particular steps to help all of us transition to new positions.

Luckily, I started looking for jobs nearly a month ago and had begun preparing my resume and materials back in December, so I've already had a good number of interviews and am waiting to hear back about two positions in particular.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed and doing a lot of email refreshing, but if I'm being really honest it seems grim. I've already heard that many other companies are implementing a hiring freeze with the virus outbreak, etc. I can't help but shake the feeling that I should have started applying about a month earlier.

whalesalad · 5 years ago
> Sadly, I wholeheartedly believe that the owners are using the coronavirus as an excuse to close their already-failing company.

If you feel the company has been failing, then I doubt this is an excuse. It's just the straw that is breaking the proverbial camel's back.

porkloin · 5 years ago
Totally valid point. I think they were simply surviving by merit of the fact that the market was good, and really any major speedbump would have caused the company to fail. It's an excuse in the sense that they're not addressing that the reason coronavirus has destroyed the business is because it was built on a poor foundation.
seanmcdirmid · 5 years ago
A lot of weak companies will go belly up during an economic crisis. It isn’t that the crisis made them weak, just that being weak meant they couldn’t weather it.

In how they rationalize their failure, that is something people just do I guess.

asdfman123 · 5 years ago
Rationalizing your failure is just good marketing.
dba7dba · 5 years ago
Very sorry to hear your news.

I heard from more than a few people that during the 2008 financial crisis, some strong companies laid off low-performers. They used the financial crisis as an excuse, to protect the company from potential lawsuits.

popup21 · 5 years ago
Have they confessed how they are specifically linking the hysteria with the shutdown of the company?
okareaman · 5 years ago
Not to scare anyone, but myself and many of my highly capable friends were laid off after the dotcom bubble burst in the early 2000's. It took many of us 1, 2 sometimes 3 years to get back to the same level of job we had before. Prepare for a long haul. Get over your ego immediately and take whatever job you can get now, while you continue to look for work in the software industry. I drove a city bus (surprisingly to me, I loved it.)
misja111 · 5 years ago
Still, in 2000 the situation was quite different. IT companies had been hiring like crazy based on the assumption that infinite Internet growth would require infinite resources. And then, it turned out it was all a bubble and most of the IT workforce was not needed.

Right now there is not much fundamentally wrong with the economy, there is just a temporary setback because of the Corona lockdown. Things will go back to normal after the epidemic is over, provided that it doesn't last too long and except for some companies who were not doing too well beforehand already.

samsonradu · 5 years ago
> Right now there is not much fundamentally wrong with the economy, there is just a temporary setback because of the Corona lockdown.

A very bold claim there. There are a lot of things 'wrong' with the economy, starting with negative-yielding sovereign debt, corporate debt, repo markets, politics interfering with Central bank decisions, PE levels and ending with 30% stock market gains in 2019.

futhey · 5 years ago
Is it different though, if you zoom out far enough?

Raising money a year ago was so ridiculously easy, every company I had any visibility in to just threw money at every problem they encountered. Hired like crazy, to satisfy their egos, and to keep up with their peers. Growth over profitability.

I'm being hyperbolic to some degree, every company is different. And certainly no one is adding a dotcom to their name in hopes of raising more cash with less revenue. Or maybe that's exactly what Casper and WeWork and the like were doing.

I think once we get a bit more perspective (10 years from now) it'll be a lot easier to answer these questions.

aguyfromnb · 5 years ago
>IT companies had been hiring like crazy based on the assumption that infinite Internet growth would require infinite resources. And then, it turned out it was all a bubble and most of the IT workforce was not needed.

How are you confident that this isn't exactly what's happening now, and the virus was a catalyst?

People have been talking about the froth, seriously, for a couple years. Theranos, WeWork, SoftBank, the recent IPO busts...

isodude · 5 years ago
Oddly enough this is the story of many bus drivers I talk too.

Stressed out, changed careers, became bus drivers and _love_ it. Mostly related to meeting people and not having goals but a proper timetable to relate too.

okareaman · 5 years ago
I found something by the English philosopher Alan Watts later that was absolutely true for me:

"Imagine, too, if you were a bus driver. Bus driver is ordinarily, ordinarily considered an absolutely harassed person. You've got to watch out for all the laws, all the competing traffic. The cops, the people coming on board giving their fares and he has to give them change and if he has it in his head that this is work, it will be hell. But let's suppose he has a different thing in his head.

Supposing that he has the idea that moving this enormous conveyance through complicated traffic. It is a very, very subtle game, and he has the same feeling about it that you might have if you were playing the guitar or dancing. And so he goes through that traffic avoiding this, and avoiding that and taking the affairs like this and he makes a music of the whole thing. Well he's not going to be tired out at the end of the day. He's going to be full of energy when he gets through his job."

mooreds · 5 years ago
> Get over your ego immediately and take whatever job you can get now, while you continue to look for work in the software industry. I drove a city bus (surprisingly to me, I loved it.)

Getting over your ego is always good advice :).

I also would suggest contracting if you are interested in that. It's a different experience than just coding, but you can learn a lot about the business side of this (marketing and getting paid). That's what I did around 2002.

dillonmckay · 5 years ago
This should be the top post.
okareaman · 5 years ago
It's too early for people to hear it. Wait until unemployment runs out.
sqs · 5 years ago
Sourcegraph CEO here. We build universal code search for developers. Our team is all-remote (all countries and timezones OK). We're hiring for engineering, design, and product roles (+ others):

https://github.com/sourcegraph/careers/blob/master/job-descr...

https://github.com/sourcegraph/careers/blob/master/job-descr...

and https://github.com/sourcegraph/careers#readme for a full list of roles.

We are growing quickly and have not slowed down hiring pace (and don't plan to do so based on the Covid-19 crisis). The limiting factor for us is just ensuring we're adding engineers, PMs, designers, and managers in the right ratios.

If you are interested in joining our team, we would love to hear from you. Understanding the financial stability of the company you'll join is crucial, and as CEO I always walk all late-stage candidates through our internal metrics, burn, cash on hand, etc. We are doing very well and just announced a $23M Series B 2 weeks ago (https://medium.com/craft-ventures/why-we-invested-in-sourceg...).

worstestes · 5 years ago
I appreciate the information! Really enjoy the way you and your team have laid out your company information and resources in the links above.
RangerScience · 5 years ago
Oh fantastic! I'll hit you up for the Customer Engineer. Love that kind of gig.
RangerScience · 5 years ago
Sent!
sumitjami · 5 years ago
I am still learning go (by myself). However have professional experience of >5 years. Would you recommend me going through the application and interview process. (I am happy to do it anyways :-) )
dathinab · 5 years ago
My predictions:

DISCLAIMER: I'm not a expert wrt. any of this. Don't listen to me ;=). It's all just speculation.

Companies which plan to downsize since a will will do it now, using COVID19 as a excuse.

Companies who have shifted some "bad consequences" into the future might now book them using COVID19 as a excuse for why they exist.

Companies who are already on the last straw will end now, (Such which without COVID19 might have survived a view more month up to a year but didn't see a chance for long term survival without a wonder).

A bunch of companies will go insolvent because COVID19 or following marked situation.

Because of this investors will be a bit more careful then normal, for most kinds of "fresh"/"new" startups it likely will not be a good time.

A small number of startups will have massive opportunities.

Marked will recover after at most 5 Years more likely 3.5 Years. At least if no further crisis happens (like WW3 or one of the massive Vulcan's going off).

Unrelated tip: Be a software engineer not "just" a programmer.

corwinstephen · 5 years ago
I spent most of the last 4 years running a startup that has proven to be the steepest or uphill battles. Struggling to find investors willing to take a chance in our space vs the trendier ones, struggling to convert slow moving clients, struggling to find engineers willing to work in our very unglamorous niche.

We’re a platform for designing and managing digital government processes for permitting and licensing.

After for years of pain, struggle, and doubt, we’ve had more inbound interest this week than ever before, and I feel incredibly lucky to have landed in that small number of startups.

sparr0 · 5 years ago
I wish you well, and wish I had money to invest. When you grow enough to be looking for devops engineers, or sooner for just software engineers, look me up?
muse900 · 5 years ago
Want to wish you well, and its quite nice after all this sorrow to see that there are still nice ideas out there that are capable to not only survive but prosper.
ccajas · 5 years ago
A remark about the unrelated tip: A good chunk of companies, if not the majority, out there are looking for "just a programmer", noted by how much they advertise and place emphasis that you must know specific languages and software tools (especially if React or Java is gonna be part of your job title), over broader concepts like design patterns and algorithms.

This can be a problem when you want to sell yourself as a proper SWE, when the people in charge of the hiring pipeline only understand simple pattern-matching for "React Wizard with 5 years experience". And you can't be too picky about where you want to work, even though they might continue to be picky for employees. It unfortunately makes it so you either already have to already be a very good match for their specific needs, or you are compelled to lie on your resume.

arvinsim · 5 years ago
There really is no silver bullet. If you really want to cover most cases, you have to

- Be generalist to cover all general concepts as you outlined

- Be a "programmer". That is knowledgeable in specific frameworks and languages

- Be data structure and algorithms guy. Most technical interviews involve them even if they are not needed in job.

madeofpalk · 5 years ago
There’s also the situations where the pandemic makes already mad situations even worse.

My parents run a cafe/restaurant in rural Australia that was already not doing too great, and they were looking to sell. Now, they’re truly fucked.

fludlight · 5 years ago
I'm sure Australia will be locked down soon. Maybe they can switch to a take-out model. Rural areas also need more grocery stores. Maybe sell bulk dry/canned goods since they already stock that.
jee1shi · 5 years ago
What's the difference between a software engineer and "just" a programmer?
SeanAppleby · 5 years ago
IMO engineer implies the same direction of thing it implies anywhere else: a deep understanding of the fundamentals of what you're building, an ability to rigorously model and optimize for the key aspects of your problem space and turn them into a solid design that meets them (whether that's performance, scaleability, reliability, latency, throughput, memory use, etc)

Programmer moreso implies just making things work, like a carpenter, by putting together something good enough using existing tools, possibly constrained by the tools available to you, in my opinion.

That said, everyone's understanding breaks down at some level of abstraction, so it's a spectrum, and you can be plenty productive and useful operating at a high level of abstraction.

dionidium · 5 years ago
In reality? It's totally nebulous, the terms aren't standardized, the distinctions aren't agreed upon, and people use these words -- developer, engineer, programmer -- interchangeably and/or inconsistently. You can't actually tell anything about someone by which term they use.

But in practice, as you'll see in this thread, some people have very strong (and totally arbitrary) opinions about those words, for reasons I cannot fathom. Knowing this exists is important, I guess, because some people will (maybe silently) judge you for using the wrong one in the wrong context, and you should at least be aware that can happen.

_bxg1 · 5 years ago
Lately "software engineer" feels a bit pretentious to me, with all the articles about how we're co-opting the word "engineer". I've started using the word "programmer" just to avoid the pretention and because it has a nice old-school ring to it.

I kind of doubt employers read it as such a technical term that it would factor into the hiring process.

moltar · 5 years ago
The same as brick layer vs architect.
proc0 · 5 years ago
It involves solving and creating "engines", i.e. an app framework, a development platform, a game engine.
dathinab · 5 years ago
I forgot: Small non-software companies with 1-2 People will have a large hit, and likely many insolvencies.

E.g. it looks very bad for professional flea-marked trader or the small shop around the corner.

geerlingguy · 5 years ago
I run a few small SaaS side projects, and most of my clients are smaller shops that do web projects. So far I haven't had any cancellations, but I'm crossing my fingers over the next month or two :/
projektfu · 5 years ago
To be fair, it’s not just about finding an excuse. A company that’s struggling can run out of cash quickly during these events. Outside of SV that usually means bankruptcy of some sort.
popup21 · 5 years ago
All of your speculations seem entirely rational to me. Good analysis.
Cyberdog · 5 years ago
I'm a contract full-stack web developer. I've been "laid off" in that my last remaining client, who was already behind on her bills, told me to stop all work and she has no idea if/when she'll be able to pay her outstanding bills. I have no idea where next month's rent is going to come from.

If anybody needs some contract web dev done, check out my info at https://albright.pro/ and reach out ASAP. I will cut you one hell of a deal if you can at least help keep a roof over my head.

pletsch · 5 years ago
Are all your clients technical? If not, might want to consider a revamp of your site, make it more what your work will do for them (online presence) than your specific skill set (PHP, Drupal).
generatorguy · 5 years ago
and remove the comment about sneaking an easter egg in to drupal core. If I were looking to hire a web developer I wouldn't want a sneaky one.
Cyberdog · 5 years ago
With all the time I have now, I'm certainly planning on sprucing up the site (which is currently just a flat HTML file) in the near future. When I had client work, it was sort of a "the cobbler's children have no shoes" sort of thing - I couldn't justify spending much free time on it. Perhaps that was faulty reasoning in hindsight.
Peretus · 5 years ago
I'm so sorry to hear that happened. Good luck, and I'll send folks your way if I come across anything.
ArtDev · 5 years ago
Hey I am also a Drupal developer. Check out drupalcontractors.com.

They got me a really good long-term contract at my dream Drupal job a few months ago. Good luck!

puzzledobserver · 5 years ago
I am sorry to hear this. Would freelancing websites like Upwork be able to help? I hope things work out soon!
aerovistae · 5 years ago
So sorry to hear this. Wish I had work to hire people for but I'm just another solo dev too. Good luck.

Dead Comment

Kwantuum · 5 years ago
Sorry to say, your online presence is dreadfully low for a web developer.
alecbenzer · 5 years ago
Whether this is true or not, there's much better ways to phrase this.

> Your online presence is dreadfully low for a web developer.

Just dropping "Sorry to say" makes it sound less condescending.

> Your online presence is really low for a web developer.

Dreadfully -> really. Could argue that this changes the meaning somewhat, but I think the change is more in tone (again, less pretentious/condescending sounding) than in actual meaning.

> Your online presence is really low for a web developer, you should consider expanding it to increase your exposure/get more interviews

Explicitly making a suggestion is more constructive and makes the tone more friendly.

staticvar · 5 years ago
I used to think I needed an amazing online presence in order to sustain a freelance career. In hindsight, that time would have been better spent reaching out on job boards and building relationships with real people.
aliswe · 5 years ago
As a freelancer I've had zero online presence, not even LinkedIn. I have almost only ever got assignments through connections and reaching out to businesses myself.

Garret, just emailed you.

Cyberdog · 5 years ago
What do you mean by that?