FWIW I find these batteries and the charger to be exceptional. You can just leave batteries in and it knows when to stop charging. If you get the big charger and put a bunch of batteries in it charges them round-robin style. And the batteries themselves seem to be sturdy, robust, and high capacity. They're also expensive af so you want to wait for a sale if possible. I even spent a ridiculous amount of money on the battery-powered wet/dry vac and haven't regretted it for a moment.
> You can just leave batteries in and it knows when to stop charging.
This is true of all modern lithium ion consumer hardware, because if you don't get this part right, the battery explodes and burns down your house the first time.
I just switched over the last 6 months over to Milwaukee tools for my home DIY stuff and they are really exceptional. I got one of the 7 1/4" circular saws with a FORGE battery and it just cuts everything I've thrown at it effortlessly. I'd put it as more powerful than my Dewalt 10" corded tablesaw, at least it seems much happier to rip a 2x4 than the table saw. I even designed a 3D printed sled for it to run on my track saw tracks and it does a great job there.
Some of the battery powered tools really are more powerful these days, since a home 110v circuit is limited to a total draw of 1800w or so. The latest gen 18v/24v batteries can actually deliver more than that, at least for short bursts. Especially the big 4AH+ packs.
I recently purchased a M18 trimmer after not using one for years, it still surprises me that when not on the throttle - "off" is truly off, and not the persistent hum of a 2 stroke that is too loud in your left ear. No fumes and no fuel/oil mix to worry about.
Even TTI’s lesser Ryobi stuff (my usual go to as a DIYer who bought two tools 15 years ago and the batteries are still compatible) has benefited immensely from tabless and 21700 cells. My 21700 8aH batteries is usually the difference between “can’t cut” and “huh is slowed a little <shrug>”
I never buy the batteries - I always look for a tool with the battery, as you can almost always score a free tool (or free battery depending on how you look at it).
The 4x 18V/5Ah batteries that came with my lawnmower (which uses them in pairs) are retailing for for $560.
And then not as any sort of special deal, just the standard retail bundle, the lawnmower with four batteries included costs $700. So that's $560 of batteries and $140 of lawnmower.
It's funny how lithium ion cell prices have absolutely cratered everywhere else, but the price of tool batteries just keeps going up.
I wish there was somebody making reputable quality compatible tool batteries instead of mystery brand counterfeit trash.
Indeed, I've been really pleased. They continue to hold a solid charge for years as well, even when left in harsh environments (like fluctuations between extreme hot and cold, etc). When I first started using battery power tools they were terrible. They had almost no power and batteries would die rapidly, usually at the worst possible time (like when you're using arms, shoulders, and knees to hold a piece in place and you just need to get a couple of screws in to hold it in position and the damn thing dies). A few years ago my wife got me a Milwaukee power driver/drill set and it almost instantly became my favorite tool. I haven't switched to the saws yet because I have great saws that stay in my shop, but I'm impressed enough that if I need to go to a work site again I'll consider it very seriously, whereas in the past I never would have.
Hell yeah. I bought the Milwaukee shop vac a few weeks ago. Didn't realize it comes without batteries... which come without a charger. But I couldn't be happier with it. We have a cat that will create mounds - tall mounds - of cat litter in front of the litterbox entrance. Just hurls it out the hole somehow into a big pile. I just empty out the big tray at the bottom of the shop vac, suck up the litter in a few seconds, and dump it right back into the box. It's quick, clean, and easier than trying to change a cat's behavior. And for cat barves, like when they eat too fast, I just take the filter out and vacuum that up no problem, and it's powerful enough that you can't even tell that anything happened on the rug. (It's always on a rug, never on the hardwood floor. Naturally.) It's a game changer for this cat owner.
They're not the only battery tools I have (also have some Makita), but I am a big fan of virtually all my M12/M18 stuff. From the track saw, to the portable bandsaws, to the band files, oscillating multitools, reciprocating saws, jigsaws, drills, drivers, blowers, string trimmers, etc... their lineup is just incredibly diverse, servicing many trades/tasks, and they hardly ever make a 'dud'.
Their batteries, at least in my experience, have also been similarly long-lived and reliable over years. And yeah - like some others have said - I also get all my batteries from 'battery included' tools/deals. I don't think I've ever bought one by itself.
Define abuse — because what Lithium Ion hates more than anything is long periods stored at over 80 percent, and especially heat stress while fully charged.
Batteries which are used regularly and spend more time between 20–80 percent full might be less "abused" than batteries which are used infrequently, and stored in a room which sometimes gets hot.
Where do you usually look for a sale on Milwaukee? I got lucky finding a great bundle sale at a Home Depot once, I'd love any tips on where/when to look more specifically.
Home Depot is usually pretty good. Bundles are available fairly commonly as starter packs if you need to start from nothing. The drill/impact kit is likely where I'd begin since both of those (gen3) are exceptional in my opinion.
Where it gets fun are the "buy a battery pack and get a tool free" deals. I had a bunch of text typing this out, but the stickied Reddit post covers it better[1]. You can typically get the tool you want for 40-60% off when/if it goes on sale using the "Home Depot Hack". Most common tools do at least once a year - the esoteric items are more hit or miss.
I rarely pick up a tool now at full price. Once I know I want one, I simply add it to a list and note when it goes on sale in one of those combo deals. I've also picked up way more batteries than I ever will need due to other sales as well.
The Milwaukee "buy more save more" event also works well if you need what is going on sale at the time.
Reddit /r/milwaukeetool is a good place to check in from time to time for sales. Slickdeals is great for setting up an alert, but the exceptional deals get sold out quickly once it hits that site. There are also Discord groups out there as well if you go deep down the rabbit hole.
Warning: Once you learn about Packout this becomes somewhat of an addiction for certain personalities.
Always love to see an in-depth reverse engineering write-up. This one's particularly interesting since I'm currently designing a battery pack for my own project.
Interesting to see a microcontroller (and quite a classic one...) as well as an ASIC for battery management. I imagine it's for communication purposes. The battery management chips I've been looking at have built in I2C interfaces to let me avoid firmware.
I've been down this road before. The ASIC in the Milwaukee pack is known as an "analog front end". Since you can't wire cells directly up to the pins of your MCU, you have a chip to handle that stuff for you. It will let you read the voltage of each cell in the stack (some are literally analog, and just provide a nicely in-range voltage output for your MCU's ADC to read; others have internal ADCs). It might do current sensing. It might handle a couple alarms to turn off a mosfet when things go wrong. It will have an I2C interface, but the supported commands are "tell me voltage of cell #2" or "put shunt resistor on cell #1 for balancing". It's still the MCU that calls most of the shots here, but the more advanced ASICs can do more things autonomously.
The MSP430 can be put into an extremely low power sleep mode (microAmps I believe, though you have to turn off all it's peripherals also) which means the MCU will not draw down the battery over time, leaving it fully charged and ready to be used even after long storage.
I have a substantial investment in both Dewalt and Milwaukee tools that I use regularly in my farming operation. I definitely prefer the Milwaukee tools to the Dewalt. I recently bought a 6" Milwaukee chain saw for light duty cutting. I get a lot of cuts before I have to change batteries. Also the torque in the Milwaukee 3/4" impact gun is truly amazing and the battery lasts through a lot of bolt removals.
I’ve found they excel in different areas. For wood working, dewalt is the clear winner. They have some of the best most cost effective major woodworking tool like planers and table saws. Milwaukee has an edge on impact drivers and little else. If you mostly work with wood, Dewalt is better. If you need impacts for auto work, Milwaukee edges out dewalt. It’s rarely worth investing in both platforms because the batteries are the most expensive component.
I use Dewalt for my woodworking stuff and Milwaukee M12 for this very reason. M12 for automotive for their high speed ratchet, 3/8” stubby impact, right angle die grinder, etc. Milwaukee seems to have an edge there although Dewalt isn’t far behind.
Milwaukee makes the best versions of lots of tools, mostly related to the electrical trade. The M12 portaband (one handed!) and M12 SDS plus hammer drills are amazing tools, and so are the M18 versions. Milwaukee has great lighting options too. My electricians can choose between Milwaukee and Makita, they all choose Milwaukee.
One Christmas, I was given a shiny new 14.4V Craftsman NiCad drill with two batteries. These were not cheap and I was young and broke and very grateful for the thoughtful gift. It worked great and I enjoyed it immensely. For about a year.
After that, neither pack would hold a charge long enough to be useful. Which I thought was pretty disgusting. Come to find out, this was basically the normal standard to which Craftsman had finally sunk. Rather than do the rational thing and throw it out, I held onto it with with a grudge and a goal of actually making it useful again one day.
A few years back, I found a decent deal on brand-new 18650 high-current LiFePo4 batteries from a reputable supplier ($2.50 each, sadly NLA) and bought up a bunch to remake the packs for this drill and a couple others I had laying around for similar reasons. I added an inexpensive but well-made BMS (which I tested thoroughly before implementing) and the voltage was upped to 16V nominal for a little extra kick. Don't ask how I spot-welded the tabs to the batteries.
4.5 years later and these drills are still going strong, I use them at least once a week on both small and large projects. They are not speed demons or torque monsters, but they drill all the holes I ask them to. Would I have been better off economically throwing these ones in the garbage and just buying the cheapest thing from Harbor Freight? Maybe.
But spite, it turns out, is its own reward and I would do it all over again a heartbeat.
The Ryobi lithium batteries I got with my first cordless drill bundle at Home Depot in 2006 still work and still hold a useful amount of charge today. And the charger I got back then will charge the newest batteries - not as fast - but they charge.
Pretty amazing compared to what all batteries were like growing up in the 90s.
Yeah, I have had a similar experience with a cheap craftsman drill that has lithium batteries. I don't use it a lot and it pretty much has a charge when I need it.
It might not have been Craftsman's fault; NiCad batteries are vulnerable to the memory effect, which means if they were not fully discharged when you recharge them, the maximum capacity shrinks.
The "memory effect" of NiCad batteries is an urban myth that got supercharged with a dose of confirmation bias. Nobody has replicated the memory effect in consumer batteries. When people think they are observing the memory effect, most of the time they are seeing the very high self-discharge rate of 10% (or very often more) per month of storage combined with regular human forgetfulness. They charge up the battery, let it sit for a few months, go to use it, notice it went dead faster than they expected, charge it up again, use it right away, and see that it's back up to normal capacity.
In my case, Craftsman just used REALLY bad cells, Plus there was no BMS, AND they wired them all in series so that if one or a few develop high internal resistance, basically the whole pack was shot. Very bad design + very cheap cells = designed obsolescence.
Do you have a source for this? Because all I know is that this was an April fools joke from last year. I'm curious of the EU is now actually doing this.
Too bad this wasn't real, especially since at the end of the day, all these things are just using 18560 cells.
I tried to standardize on one system (Hikoki 18/36V). This was great as they use the same battery across consumer and pro products. But I moved from Japan to Europe and they are far less available, and more expensive. Now I buy Parkside stuff (Lidl brand) and they are probably a tier lower but better value and also use the same battery across consumer and pro products.
Anyway I felt lucky that I could buy both low and high(er) end cordless tools in two countries/brands and also find adapters to use both batteries in both sets of tools. Both systems don't have any sort of data handshake between tool and battery. Going forward, this will probably increasingly be the case so I would love for a standard to be enforced.
This would be painful in the short term because all my current tools and batteries would likely become obsolete, but it would be cool to see manufacturers more vigorously competing on battery specs like power and energy density.
There's also the risk that tool prices could go up as I suspect some tools are currently sold as a loss-leader to get you into "the system".
> This would be painful in the short term because all my current tools and batteries would likely become obsolete
I have seen 3rd party battery accessories so anyone looking to make money might wind up making adapters to retrofit tools. Good for the environment too.
We've had universal adapters for ages. You can run a DeWalt battery on a Milwaukee, Makita on DeWalt, etc. I even have an adapter to run my Milwaukee M18 batteries on my Dyson vacuum.
You can run a wire to the pos/neg leads on the battery and use it standalone. I use it to power temporary reverse off-road lights on my truck. I see no reason to do this sort of thing. More oppressive regulation from the EU that no one actually wants. Fortunately Milwaukee is a US company as well as a dominant player in the market and will likely not participate in this whatsoever.
You have to be careful with the adapters because some brands have the circuitry that stops you running the battery too low in the tool and some in the battery. If you end up with a combo where that circuitry doesn’t exist you can over-deplete the battery.
Agree. The toolmakers don't impose some sort of coding (that I know of) so you can just use a 3rd party replacement battery too. I don't see a need to regulate this either.
I'm not sure I follow. Aren't all lithium charging circuits basically the same nowadays, namely an SMC paired with a voltage pump or switching power circuit?
This isn't the charging circuit - that goes in the charger. This circuit is responsible monitoring the state-of-charge (for that little LED bar graph on the front), disconnecting the cells if something goes wrong, and negotiating available current with the tool. It should also be responsible for cell balancing, but it looks like Milwaukee forgot to implement that feature (oops).
The videos at the bottom of the article have most of the details, since those dive into the communications protocols as opposed to the raw schematics.
Their M12 batteries don't have balancing (or a BMS inside), so they go out of balance and 'bad' very quickly. I've just added a balance plug to the outside of mine that I plug into my hobby Li-ion charger.
There are always two charging circuits for Li batteries, one in the battery and the other in the charger. They pair together to negotiate the voltage and current. There's a dedicated protocol to do this.
Youtube channel Torque Test Channel did a video on various new "tabless" batteries from various tool companies and most do provide more power per amp compared to the older models.
Readit News
This is true of all modern lithium ion consumer hardware, because if you don't get this part right, the battery explodes and burns down your house the first time.
And then not as any sort of special deal, just the standard retail bundle, the lawnmower with four batteries included costs $700. So that's $560 of batteries and $140 of lawnmower.
It's funny how lithium ion cell prices have absolutely cratered everywhere else, but the price of tool batteries just keeps going up.
I wish there was somebody making reputable quality compatible tool batteries instead of mystery brand counterfeit trash.
It feels like there is a segment the tool co's are selling toward, that leaves another segment underserved.
Eip if this is something you want to hobby-horse on.
Their batteries, at least in my experience, have also been similarly long-lived and reliable over years. And yeah - like some others have said - I also get all my batteries from 'battery included' tools/deals. I don't think I've ever bought one by itself.
Batteries which are used regularly and spend more time between 20–80 percent full might be less "abused" than batteries which are used infrequently, and stored in a room which sometimes gets hot.
Where it gets fun are the "buy a battery pack and get a tool free" deals. I had a bunch of text typing this out, but the stickied Reddit post covers it better[1]. You can typically get the tool you want for 40-60% off when/if it goes on sale using the "Home Depot Hack". Most common tools do at least once a year - the esoteric items are more hit or miss.
I rarely pick up a tool now at full price. Once I know I want one, I simply add it to a list and note when it goes on sale in one of those combo deals. I've also picked up way more batteries than I ever will need due to other sales as well.
The Milwaukee "buy more save more" event also works well if you need what is going on sale at the time.
Reddit /r/milwaukeetool is a good place to check in from time to time for sales. Slickdeals is great for setting up an alert, but the exceptional deals get sold out quickly once it hits that site. There are also Discord groups out there as well if you go deep down the rabbit hole.
Warning: Once you learn about Packout this becomes somewhat of an addiction for certain personalities.
[0] https://old.reddit.com/r/MilwaukeeTool/comments/1gwhvi9/the_...
Interesting to see a microcontroller (and quite a classic one...) as well as an ASIC for battery management. I imagine it's for communication purposes. The battery management chips I've been looking at have built in I2C interfaces to let me avoid firmware.
DeWalt's lighting options are terrible, compared to Milwaukee. Low run time and bad ergonomics.
In contrast, Milwaukee lights run much longer and have some neat solutions for disaster scenarios (lamp + USB charger).
After that, neither pack would hold a charge long enough to be useful. Which I thought was pretty disgusting. Come to find out, this was basically the normal standard to which Craftsman had finally sunk. Rather than do the rational thing and throw it out, I held onto it with with a grudge and a goal of actually making it useful again one day.
A few years back, I found a decent deal on brand-new 18650 high-current LiFePo4 batteries from a reputable supplier ($2.50 each, sadly NLA) and bought up a bunch to remake the packs for this drill and a couple others I had laying around for similar reasons. I added an inexpensive but well-made BMS (which I tested thoroughly before implementing) and the voltage was upped to 16V nominal for a little extra kick. Don't ask how I spot-welded the tabs to the batteries.
4.5 years later and these drills are still going strong, I use them at least once a week on both small and large projects. They are not speed demons or torque monsters, but they drill all the holes I ask them to. Would I have been better off economically throwing these ones in the garbage and just buying the cheapest thing from Harbor Freight? Maybe.
But spite, it turns out, is its own reward and I would do it all over again a heartbeat.
Pretty amazing compared to what all batteries were like growing up in the 90s.
In my case, Craftsman just used REALLY bad cells, Plus there was no BMS, AND they wired them all in series so that if one or a few develop high internal resistance, basically the whole pack was shot. Very bad design + very cheap cells = designed obsolescence.
I tried to standardize on one system (Hikoki 18/36V). This was great as they use the same battery across consumer and pro products. But I moved from Japan to Europe and they are far less available, and more expensive. Now I buy Parkside stuff (Lidl brand) and they are probably a tier lower but better value and also use the same battery across consumer and pro products.
Anyway I felt lucky that I could buy both low and high(er) end cordless tools in two countries/brands and also find adapters to use both batteries in both sets of tools. Both systems don't have any sort of data handshake between tool and battery. Going forward, this will probably increasingly be the case so I would love for a standard to be enforced.
There's also the risk that tool prices could go up as I suspect some tools are currently sold as a loss-leader to get you into "the system".
I have seen 3rd party battery accessories so anyone looking to make money might wind up making adapters to retrofit tools. Good for the environment too.
Also: I want that regulation :)
The videos at the bottom of the article have most of the details, since those dive into the communications protocols as opposed to the raw schematics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJuevwLJyMQ
This guy has a few videos on his channel dedicated to the batteries.