Classical music is one of the hardest genres to surface through existing music apps.
Where an app may have an "artist" field, classical music will have "composer" and then for the performers it will have "orchestra", "conductor", "principal soloists". For an opera all of those are primary fields that could be considered "artist".
The variations of the data is huge, only last week I had to correct Tchaikovsky in my own data and looking at the variations I see online:
P. I. Tchaïkovski
Peter Ilyitch Tchaikofsky
Peter Tchaikovsky
Petr Ilitch Tchaïkovski
Piotr Ilic Tchaikovskij
Piotr Ilyitch Tchaikovski
Piotr Tchaikovski
Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky (this one is arguably most correct)
This is something everyone gets wrong, and yet whomever gets it right is going to help make it easier for people to find and celebrate classical music, and to expose more people to classical music.
Even if today you know that you love Beethoven's Symphony No 3... finding the best performance and recording is almost impossible, and if you do happen to stumble upon it on a streaming service getting back to it later (if it wasn't the only one in your recents) is difficult.
I'm really glad someone is investing in this, and it needs to be a different app / interface to handle this difference in metadata and in weighting of the fields. Capturing the intent of "oh, this person really just wants to search Gould as a principal soloist and weight the search that way" is far easier when you have an app that can provide a classical music perspective and filter over an existing library.
PS: Plex does this really badly too... whatever you do, don't let the Plex Music Agents decide the metadata, Verdi disappeared and had the metadata for Veridia which I believe is a rock band.
This is way off topic (and I apologize) but it’s remarkably hard to learn about classical music. Would you do me a favour? I’m a classical neophyte and struggle with composer/orchestra/conductor fit. Can you recommend any combinations that I need to hear??
Thus far, I think I like baroque and Bach makes me happy. I’m starting to think I love opera but I might just have a thing for Maria Callas. However, I’m open to any and all recommendations and will love the hell out of anyone who recommends anything. I prefer vinyl but I’ll buy an 8 track if it helps.
(Whenever I’ve asked HN for help, I’ve ended up with new favourite recordings of all time. Thanks to all the classical music lovers who have really enhanced my life throughout the years.)
> I’m a classical neophyte and struggle with composer/orchestra/conductor fit.
If you're new to classical music you really don't need to worry about this. Almost all available professional recordings are of high quality, and the differences between interpretations are relatively subtle.
What is important is to get a sense of which composers you enjoy. Classical music spans a large period of time with very different styles, so try a few well-known composers from different time periods to see what you like. I greatly enjoy classical music and I regularly attend(ed) concerts, but my interests are very narrow and I don't get a lot of enjoyment out of Mozart and Beethoven for instance.
In my opinion, classical music is best enjoyed when you devote your full attention to listening to the music, i.e. when you're not doing anything else (or something with a very low cognitive load, like walking/driving/etc). Focus on how the music makes you feel, but it's okay to let your thoughts wander off a bit.
Bach: The Art of Fugue performed by Emerson String Quartet (Deutsche Grammophon)
Classical music rewards close listening, but orchestral pieces can be overwhelming to those who haven't trained themselves to listen closely. This is a good set of recordings to start with, as there are only a handful of performers, each with a distinctive sound.
Digression: once one has learned the pieces, this can be a good audio assessment tool. Some speakers over-amplify specific sounds. Some amps muddy certain frequencies or complex sounds. A string quartet performing similar melodies is a great way to notice this.
This specific album was the first that really opened my eyes to audio quality differences. If all four instruments are playing, I should be able to hear them. If all I can hear is the viola, there's something wrong with the system. Or, if I can suddenly hear all four where I couldn't before... These are significant differences, not minor ones.
From there, it was learning finer details. The first time I could hear the attack, sustain, and release of a note on a stringed instrument. Changing equipment and suddenly getting what "soundstage" meant. Etc.
This album also kept me honest when diving into the potentially incredibly expensive and super opinionated audiophile world. How does this compare to my personal system? Am I noticing anything I've not noticed before? Is anything missing? Do the answers to these questions justify spending money? Surprisingly, the answer most of the time to the last question was no.
Others have recommended Mozart's Requiem if you like music with singing. If you haven't heard Robert Levin's completion, e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=457pvjOo9Hw, I think it takes the cake.
For a neophyte, I think it's good to start with the war horses, for which there are lots of high-quality modern recordings.
- Bach Brandenberg concerti (I like the Netherlands Bach Society, they have tons of great Bach recordings on Youtube. If you're into Bach, highly recommend you check them out.)
- Goldberg variations (I like Glen Gould's later recording, but Kimiko Ishizaka is also a great libre recording, and Netherlands Bach Society has a great recording on harpsichord)
Personally I think watching videos helps bring the music alive in a way that listening to recordings doesn't. And maybe it's heresy to some, but I think modern recordings are, in general, a lot more pleasant to listen to.
If you like baroque music, I can't help but plug my own New York City-based ensemble (named after Bach himself), the Sebastians: https://www.sebastians.org I'm the group's harpsichordist and director.
Since you already like Bach, start by exploring his work!
Let's start with the Goldberg Variations, which are 30 variations on a theme set for the keyboard. Glenn Gould's 1955 recording is perhaps the best known recording of this work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwas_7H5KUs
For opera, I suggest starting with the Magic Flute by Mozart. There are so many good recording to choose from but why not watch the thing? It's meant to be a visual/audio format, after all! I suggest this recording of the Metropolitan Opera - it's what got me hooked on operas many years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjZfHFPIk7g
If you like Maria Callas, you'll love Italian operas. Why not start with the classic, La Traviata? I can't find any of Callas's performances online (aside from clips), but you may like this performance with Anna Netrebko: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYGiRbDHr7k
Finally, a note on where/how to listen to classical music. I find Youtube to be an incredible tool for listening and for discovery. It's not necessary to dig back to vinyl or 8-track to listen to great performances - they've been remastered for CDs and lossless media.
But ultimately you want to listen to it in person. I'll never forget seeing my first opera in person (The Flying Dutchman). Or the time I scored orchestra seats for Sibelius's 4th symphony. Until the performances return, you might want to buy a ticket to an online performance on DG Premium, which is Deutsche Grammophon's streaming service: https://www.dg-premium.com/
Good luck and good listening!
EDIT: Alas, the Magic Flute performance I linked to doesn't have subtitles! Boo! Here's one that does, though it's not the classic Met production: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPxrbeR5ZyE
If you'd like to explore the BBC Music Magazine's list of 20 greatest conductors might not be a bad place to start for orchestral music. The ordering may be a bit controversial but these are all great artists and the listing has some of their best performances.
One thing to look out for in baroque is original instruments vs modern instruments performances. Original instruments have a very different - leaner - sound. I find I much prefer them now. Someone like John Eliot Gardiner is amazing in original instruments Bach.
If you think you might like opera check out the René Jacobs' recordings of Mozart's Italian Operas on the Harmonia Mundi label: Cosi Fan Tutte, Le Nozze di Figaro & Don Giovannni.
In general as a beginner I wouldn't worry too much about finding the best recording of any particular piece. Once you start to develop some favorites then you can pick a few and compare. Streaming services make this a lot easier and cheaper than it used to be.
You don't have to worry about reading the whole thing. Read through Bach and Mozart (and maybe Beethoven) to begin with. You'll get a feel for the historical background, and mention of their major pieces. Then, you go listen to the pieces.
I know these are pianists, but a good number of the great composers were some of the foremost pianists of their time.
Supplement a composer you've read about with a YouTube video or two, and their entry in Wikipedia, and you're off to a great start.
I asked a classical-loving friend this same question and she gave me a wonderful Spotify playlist that I can share if you're interested[1]. I also condensed it down to my own favorites if you'd like that as well[2].
[1]: Turns out I'm unable to share her playlist, but...
Ever really loved a classical piano song? No? Maybe you just don't like the controversial new way we've been tuning pianos for the last ~200 years.
Check out the 1/4 comma meantone version of Mozart Fantasie KV397 [1] which you can compare to equal temperament. (Please note this piece was unfinished, and the final section is believed to have been written by someone else.)
My secret love is Chopin Ballade No. 4 Op. 52 in unequal temperament [2]. Last year this video had ~4k views. I may be responsible for 1k and it's now ~8k views. You can compare a good ET version Krystian Zimmerman [3].
Jacob Collier has referred to Equal Temperament as a "hoax" [4]
BBC Radio 3 has a whole series about this called Building a Library. There’s a UK retailer called Presto that annotate their stock with the different endorsements too - they sell digital files as well, if you’re not in the UK. Then it’s really about learning what you like. Personally, I’d start by period: broadly, Baroque (Bach, Vivaldi etc), Classical (Beethoven, Mozart etc), Romantic (Debussy, Ravel). The periods have identifiable styles and can be a good way to introduce yourself to the nuance of the compositions. Finally, there’s a question of instrumentation: whether you prefer orchestral, vocal, chamber, solo etc.
Sounds like a lot of work, but remember it should be fun! It’s new music, a bunch of which you’ve probably never heard before. Have an open mind and dive in!
Also, assuming you have access where you live and the means, live music doesn’t have to be prohibitively expensive. Check out the programs at your local concert halls and go down to hear some music.
If you have an iPad, Deutsche Grammophon's apps are a great intro to the intellectual and emotional complexity and nuance of some key classical works. They have apps for Beethoven's 9th, Vivaldi's Four Seasons, and Liszt's Sonata.
With Beethoven's 9th, while you are listening it visually syncs the original manuscript and score, a visualization of where in the orchestra different instruments are playing, and includes analysis of the performance and intention of the parts. It also lets you switch between four different performances of the 9th by the Berliner Philharmoniker, so you can compare and contrast interpretations over the years.
Seek out any Bach played by Glenn Gould. The incredible thing here is that Bach left sheet music but sheet music of the age did not include time, so the music has to be interpreted. The "Goldberg Variations" are this interpretation by Glenn Gould (a pianist).
I'd throw in Beethoven's 3rd and 5th Symphonies.
I'd also throw in something like Verdi's Rigoletto and Rossini's Barber of Seville.
In my past I owned a record label which specialised in pop, rock and folk music. I had to learn classical like I had to learn jazz. But the thing that made this easier for me was the realisation that there is far far more rock / pop than there is classical or jazz. It can be intimidating but you only need an entry point to get you started. Whatever that is will be personal to you, but the best advice anyone can give is to just listen.
I had great success with Robert Greenberg's series on music and music history. I started with How to Listen to and Understand Opera which is available on his site (https://robertgreenbergmusic.com/download/how-to-listen-unde...) and The Great Courses as well. If you want a preview shoot me an email.
He adds lots of fun history to go with it. Bach's Goldberg Variations was his greatest financial success "The Count presented him with a golden goblet filled with 100 louis-d'or." and he was obsessed with coffee. Coffee cantana by him as well.
If you like Bach you might want to learn to listen to polyphony: the form of music in which multiple melodies are played simultaneously while forming an harmonious whole. I recommend looking & listening to videos of Stephen Malinowsky (smalin on youtube), particularly his older videos with less visual clutter. Each color is a separate melody. Initially and you should try to focus on just one melody, then see if you can easily switch your focus to an other one. Then see if you can listen/focus on two melodies at the same time, then three... https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL81D26D4A47388279
In general I would not worry to much about the performer, but it might be interesting to listen to different interpretations of the same piece, particularly from composers with very idiosyncratic styles. On youtube, Ashish Xiangyi Kumar (https://www.youtube.com/c/AshishXiangyiKumar) has videos of pieces (mainly piano solo) interpreted by different artist.
Youtube used to be a treasure trove for discovering classical music. Listen to a piece/composer you like and you'd get quite good suggestions to go from there, often from lesser known composers and rare recordings.
These days those have mostly been scrubbed from Youtube and if they're still they're they're pretty undiscoverable since the suggestion algorithm is so bad now.
I've made an opinionated playlist for some friends that you may enjoy. It includes my favorites from the past few years, and has a semi-decent range of composers/time periods. I will keep adding to it.
It's very much a personal thing. As time goes by, we discover composers and pieces we want to return to over and over. At that point, you'll probably prefer some performances of particular pieces (conductor, orchestra, soloists, tempos, tame or wild-eyed) better than others. For example, some conductors will rush through something (to get it over with?) while others will work hard to make you feel every phrase, hear each instrumental solo.
This all takes time ... and will probably change over time for you. Try to make mental (or paper) notes when you really like a performance. Some conductors are really good in certain periods, but are flat in others.
In the past few years, I most enjoyed Christian Thielemann's conducting of the Beethoven symphonies. Pretty hard to go wrong with the Vienna Philharmonic ... before Brahms, that is. OTOH, Karajan ruins everything. ;->
Fwiw, I have learned a lot by listening to classical radio in the background every day.
Some of the great stations (imho -- KDFC in SF, CPR Classical Colorado, King FM in Seattle, Portland's station) have outstanding DJs who talk about the composers, soloists, conductors, orchestras, time period, etc.
IDK if this makes it more approachable, but one of my favorite things to listen to of all time is Vivaldi Recomposed (Max Richter). It's the four seasons, still a mini-orchestra but with modern sound techniques. I find it haunting and beautiful and I listen it all the time when I'm working. Has good pacing ups and downs, reminds me of the old Sim City building music
Whenever I hear something I like, I write down the piece and the conductor/orchestra.
They helped me find all sorts of good recordings and compositions that I otherwise wouldn't have listened to. For some reason, for my whole life I thought I didn't like Brahms. But the third time that I heard some breathtaking piece, thinking "what is this??", and then finding out it was Brahms, I realized my mind had been changed.
For modern performances Stefan Jackiw soloing for Max Bruch’s Scottish Fantasy is my favorite piece of music. And you can fortunately watch it on YouTube. I’ve listened to a number of recordings and no others compare, not even Heifetz’s. I’d listen to Stefan Jackiw perform just about anything though, with any orchestra - something about his playing enchants me.
Learning a bit of music history will give you a roadmap. By placing a composer in the time line of the evolution of western music, you will have a scaffold to frame your listening and other learning. When you hear something you like (or don’t like) look at when the composer was working and who they studied under. Then explore a bit about that time period and the artistic aims of the composers of that period. Listen to what you enjoy and to music adjacent (by time and school) to what you enjoy.
This might not be what you are looking for (and, indeed, it doesn't quite answer your question), but it has had a meaningful impact on my quality of life
May I recommend Leonard Bernstein’s series Omnibus.
> Whenever I’ve asked HN for help, I’ve ended up with new favourite recordings of all time.
What are your favorite recordings? I’ve been listening to a lot of Bach myself lately, but I am also a neophyte. I got into Bach via the Modern Jazz Quartet’s John Lewis’ interpretations of the Well Tempered Clavier. Bach has been a trip.
I do it this way: Find some piece you really like, then find an interpretation you really like.
I think that's actually the way it should be. People tend to hype this or that conductor or sound, and there is certainly merit to it, but I think it is even more a matter of taste than the actual music.
Once you really like a certain symphony, you will listen to it many times. Then, you will have some opinion on how things should be played to excite you, make you happy etc.
Min/maxing composer/performance dyads based on reputation is probably pretty nonsensical, even if it is nerdy fun. For example, there are some pieces I really like, and I acknowledge that Karajan is "the man", but his recording simply doesn't give me the right vibe to enjoy the music compared to some obscure conductor I found somewhere on an old compilation CD.
One last thing:
I personally do not enjoy Bach, much of Mozart, Vivaldi or "Classical"/Baroque music.
There is a whole world of stuff beyond that, however, and some of it is very different. Bruckner, Mahler, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak, Mendelssohn.
In fact, the first thing I recommend is usually Dvorak 9th Symphony "A new World". Its second movement (Largo I think it is called) is eye-wateringly beautiful, but it also doesn't turn off people who get bored by Bach, Mozart, Vivaldi et al (like me).
As someone with just a touch of classical knowledge from high school band and such, I’ve truly enjoyed and learned a lot from the Classical Classroom podcast (https://classicalclassroomshow.com/).
The piece that first got me interested in classical music was Arthur Rubinstein playing Beethoven's 5th Piano Concerto (the "Emperor Concerto"). I recommend that piece, but I particularly recommend Rubinstein's performance.
Watch Disney’s Fantasia (both of them). They’re a bit of a who’s who of classical music and a good jumping board to find more stuff. The first one is also an animation tour de force (the second is pretty damn good too, but not as groundbreaking)
If I may add my own recommendation — Ralph Kirschbaum's 1993 recordings of Bach's cello suites (blue cover). My entire Spotify subscription is basically "let me listen to this one album, please. Thanks."
I would recommend going to live concerts.
Classical music is about emotional communication between humans. A live performance is a much richer human communication channel than a recording. The moment in time is unique and not reproducible. My greatest emotional feelings were while live listening or self playing. I always remember them.
Back in the good old days of mp3s I decided I wanted my library to be as 'accurate' as possible with its metadata. I spent a lot of time manually editing metadata.
Tchaikovsky was stored as 'Пётр Ильи́ч Чайко́вский'. As you might expect, this turned out to be a bad idea on many levels:
* No searching
* Always ends up on the top/bottom of alphabetically sorted lists
* Took much longer to work out which artist it was because I'm not fluent in Cyrillic
* The Microsoft Zune's fonts did not support most non-ASCII characters (this was a big one!)
That being said, I was young and it looked cool, so I kept it :)
I did the same thing back in the day in iTunes with Japanese artists etc. But iTunes had comment and "Sort Artist" and "Sort Title" fields that solved your first 2 problems and the iPod supports the same set of unicode as the Mac, so it worked out pretty well. It also helped teach me Japanese!
People complained about the bloat in iTunes, but at times all those features did come in handy! I'll miss the depth of features once Apple finally ends up replacing the Mac music app with a port of the dumbed-down streaming service they have on iOS.
That's why it makes sense to own classical music rather than rely on a streaming service that will change, come and go (like in this case). In my case I listen to a lot of opera, I have one or two reference recordings for each opera, and I exclude the recitative which aren't really music or interesting when you just listen.
Actually I go further, I think those into art should always express that through ownership.
Books go out of print or the translation varies. Films are unavailable if they're not one of the top grossing films, and even if they are then they can be unavailable (i.e. Disney exercising artificial scarcity over historical titles).
I own and ripped over 6k CDs into FLAC a long time ago, and still a good number of these are not available on streaming services even though they were major releases in the UK in the 1990s and 2000s. Why? Because the coverage of EPs, Singles, B-sides, and some variations of albums (Japanese imports with extra tracks) isn't represented by Spotify, Google Music, Tidal, Apple, etc.
The only way to ensure you can enjoy something in the future is to own it today.
For me, music, video and book streaming / digital rental fills a different problem space - discovery before ownership.
Of course it always makes sense to own recordings, but I find it either ludicrously expensive or unimaginably boring.
Going by my streaming history, if I owned the recordings I listened too I'd have a full CD shelf for the late Beethoven Sonatas. The same again for the Concerto's, perhaps two for the Symphonies. I've just spent £150 at IKEA just to hold the basics of Beethoven, before I've even got the CD's!
Of course the alternative is to only listen to my 'preferred' interpretations, which is the unimaginable boredom. Zimerman's ballades are too dry, Perahia's too wet, Horowitz's too unorthodox, Ashkenazy's too uneven; but I'll listen to all of them again and again and again. I'm not picking a favourite here. I'd forget Chopin before I pick one.
Finally, so what if my streaming service comes and goes? I just go somewhere else.
I know it's not the same thing, but I like to stream classical radio some times. Obviously, it's curated instead of user-selected, but as a casual listener I'm more inclined to trust someone else's taste. WQXR has a few different streams. I'm partial to New Sounds.
I would argue that this argument extends to any music. The top 40 will probably never vanish, but unless you're totally happy listening to only that, there will always be library churn - unless that library lives in mp3s on a backed up hard drive.
Similarly, browsing for Jazz (and some other genres) on streaming services really killed the main way I learned about music growing up. Usually you'd look at an album's liner notes, see who was playing what instrument, and go find more records that that person played on. To give an example, I might have been listening to John Coltrane's Blue Train record, really loved the trumpet player, and have gone and found some Lee Morgan records.
I hate to admit it, but Spotify has made me lazy when it comes to music discovery, to the point where the only way I get excited to find new things is by digging for vinyl at a record store. The services feel built for passive entertainment consumption, not discovering and learning about new art.
I wonder if there's anything that ties in data from Discogs to what you're playing on Spotify, think that'd make a difference? I realise it'd be prone to incorrect matches.
I find jazz has a similar problem: there may be a band leader but usually each instrumentalist is of note, and there is no way I am aware of to track each performer in an ID3 or APE tag.
Consider for example the Cannonball Adderley album "Somethin' Else" [1]. The album artist is Cannonball because he led the session, but he is in no way the 'author' of the entire album. The performances of Miles, Hank, Sam and Art on their respective instruments are what make the album what it is. In addition, some of the tunes are 'standards': "Autumn Leaves" is by Kosma and "Love for Sale" is by Porter, although I suppose this info could be stored in the ID3 composer field on each track.
I would love a way to track performers across all my jazz albums and be able to see which albums different people performed on.
I've found similar problems with a bunch of group names. For instance, I want to listen to more Gerry Mulligan, specifically Gerry Mulligan and the Concert Jazz Band, which had a Complete Verve recordings album that I got from the jazz collection at my university's music school, but Spotify and Apple do not have. They did several other albums and Mulligan had other groups (trios, quartets, etc) but they're hard to correlate together. Many of the jazz greats were in the boat where they performed on a lot of things that wouldn't list them as primary artists, but that's how you need to find them to find 95% of their work -- especially in instruments like my favorite: trombone. Band leader vs band members doesn't even have an ID3 field to the best of my knowledge without just sticking them all into the artist field. Compound that with the amount of jazz out there in the no-copyright state (because of age or racism or both in the distant past) that only exists in a collector's collection as a 45rpm stamping with low-ish quality and it turns out that there's a lot of missing music from pre-1950 or so.
It'd be great if there was a music service that somehow incorporated the metadata in something like the Allmusic database. Say for example, while listening to an album, you could click on any side member and easily access any other album they'd played on. Same with songwriters, or album producers, recording engineers, etc. You can get all or most of this manually, but tied into a listening interface would be pretty slick.
That said, I don't know how much of a market there'd be for this
I very much agree; particularly as I may wish to hear particular bassists and they are usually not listed as the band leader.
It would also be useful to able to add multiple tags, both "jazz" and "post bop", for example.
That's unfortunate to hear... Accurate metadata matters to both the artist and the consumer, as you experienced yourself. I feel the need to shamelessly chime in with this because of how random this is, seeing our name on Hacker News: I'm one of the founding guitarists of VERIDIA and yes, the music is rock.
And then trying to play a playlist on "shuffle" will mess up the ordering of the movements of the pieces, and on "auto" it will just keep playing the same 3 most popular pieces but by various principal soloists or something.
We worked with Primephonic on the development of the platform, and this was one of the topics that got a lot of attention. In this talk about the app architecture [1] a former team mate touches upon the datamodel briefly.
It's even dumber than that. Want to listen to Brandenburg Concerto No. 5? You'll find an album whose track names start with "Johann Sebastian Bach -- Brandenburg Concertos -- BWV No. XXX" and because the strings are cut off by the UI, you can't see which one is which.
It's such a nuisance in choral music as well. There are about 1 million canticles, by hundreds of composers, to hundreds of settings, sung by hundreds of choirs, scattered across hundreds of albums. Good luck finding anything even slightly off the beaten path.
Apple Music currently doesn't even get this right within the same album. I've added a Beethoven piano concerto recording from Apple Music to my library, which at some point was suddenly split into two albums:
The albums spontaneously splitting is not limited to classical music. It has happened several times that an album I had added to the library got replaced by a dozen best-off albums containing 1-2 songs each.
As an Apple Music subscriber, I welcome the acquisition, and hope that problems like these will be reduced, and I can listen to the 4th concerto in one go again.
As a fellow Apple Music subscriber, I regret to confirm the "Apple Music currently doesn't even get this right within the same album" as a common problem across all genres. :) My personal library really isn't very big, but it still shows what I call "metadata drift": you add an album that has 12 tracks, and eventually notice that while your library still contains those 12 songs, somehow there are now only six tracks on that album, with the other six tracks replaced by versions on various compilations (and if the data gods are feeling particularly mischievous, maybe a live version).
Also got the Album splitting with one Album from Genesis. On top of that, Apple Music deletes tracks from my library, claiming it has no license - but those tracks were ripped from CD, no idea how I could get them back, I do still have the original files on my Mac.
Many years ago I was a huge fan of Music Brainz. I found a mis-named album info one time, submitted a request with changes to correct them, was rejected out of hand for an innocuous reason, and never went back. Which is too bad. As an idea and as a model, I love it. But you need the right culture/tool as well.
I remembered stumped onto an Amsterdam based classical music streaming service a few weeks ago that has a landing page explaining why they do per-second streaming subscription fee share with artists instead of the per-track share, which I think also makes a lot of sense for classical music.
Some googling seems to suggest that's Primephonic but I'm not 100% sure about it (since they took down all their pages).
Roon provides the best classical music experience I've seen (better than when I tried primephonic previously) - there are still some papercuts, but generally it handles normalizing classical metadata well
> Where an app may have an "artist" field, classical music will have "composer" and then for the performers it will have "orchestra", "conductor", "principal soloists". For an opera all of those are primary fields that could be considered "artist".
Yeah, this is maddening. Although in many ways it's not isolated to classical - the whole standards for tagging and the presentation thereof are woefully inadequate for any case where you want to be able to have a soloist or multiple composers but be able to find the same composer/songwriter regardless of who they've worked with, or featured artists in hiphop, or...
I can understand that back in the MP3 days of the late 90s/early years of the century it was "a good start" but the lack of any meaningful improvements is woeful.
Yup. What I really want is to be able to browse by composer, then work, and then show me all the performances (regardless of whether a whole album or part of an album), and let be sort/filter by popularity, trending, new, and performer.
I'm honestly pretty surprised the metadata problem hasn't been solved by now. Even if the labels are providing it in an inconsistent format, cleaning it all up to 99.9% consistency seems like it could be done fairly efficiently. The universe of the names of classical composers and performers isn't that large.
The way voice assistants behave with classical metadata is just terrible, too. Once I naively asked Android Auto to play Act II from Carmen, and it proceeded to recite all of the metadata from the record, which went one for a good solid minute.
"OK, playing 'Act 2, Chanson, "Halte-là! Qui va là?", by Georges Bizet, José Carreras & Claudine Coster & Isabelle Karajan & Alain Hitier & Maria Laborit & Berliner Philharmoniker & Herbert von Karajan & Georges Bizet ..."
Since this thread will attract classical music fans... anyone want to offer what they think are the all-time greatest recordings of particular pieces? I'll start, Murray Perahia does the definitive recording of Moonlight Sonata Mvmt 3:
A lot of companies have been investing in this for a while now. Primephonic (which Apple just bought) is only one example. I use Idagio, and I'm very impressed with the quality of the metadata and the search function.
Correctly naming performers in different writing systems is just as difficult for non-Classical genres. E.g. this week I listened to a track whose title was given (on Amazon) as "Set The Fire To The Third Bar [feat. マーザ・ウィンライト]".
I've been giving Qobuz a whirl for technical listening, and they have a very intentional approach to classical music. I'm a bit of a newbie, but I did receive the recommendation from other listeners.
Such an enlightening comment. This is why I come back to HN, I had no idea why it was so hard to discover classical music (and I've experienced that pain point myself)
Ah. Well, they're all the same person. Or rather... the same persona. So we know they're a unique person... or persona. But what is identity anyway?
What do I mean? Richard David James went by several different aliases. They're all the same person. But not the same persona? Maybe.
Couldn't Pac-Mac by Power Pill just be considered Aphex Twin's work? I'd argue, sure.
But Brad Strider's work, which is really just Richard again, is in my opinion significant enough from the rest of his work, can you group them together? Discogs still does, and that makes sense to me.
> Primephonic is no longer available for new subscribers and will be taken offline beginning September 7. Apple Music plans to launch a dedicated classical music app next year combining Primephonic’s classical user interface that fans have grown to love with more added features. In the meantime, current Primephonic subscribers will receive six months of Apple Music for free, providing access to hundreds of thousands of classical albums, all in Lossless and high-resolution audio, as well as hundreds of classical albums in Apple Music’s Spatial Audio, with new albums added regularly.
This is utter insanity. I understand acquiring, and "sunsetting" the acquisition when it makes sense, blocking new user signups, and heck I'd even say its pretty cool that they're planning on releasing a totally separate experience for Apple Music classical listeners.
But why shut down Primephonic before this new experience is ready? It just pisses off the already niche and hesitant customer-base you've announced you're trying to court!
This reminds me a lot of Dark Sky from a year or two ago. It was my partner's favorite weather app... until Apple bought the company and promptly announced they were killing it.
Unlike Primephonic, Dark Sky is still a functioning website and app to this day. I presume it will only be sunset (ha!) after iOS 15 and Monterey reach general release.
They gave a 6 month free subscription to Apple Music. I was one of the Primephonic subscribers. I’m really bummed about this as I don’t like Apple Music (and I even work for Apple!), prefer Spotify for “regular” music, and want my classical to have a proper focus and giant catalog. The major streamers just are so basic when it comes to classical, in selection, discovery, playlists, etc. I don’t want pop classical, I want the good obscure stuff.
Sad day as a user…
Update: I didn’t see the part where there’s going to be a new dedicated app. That makes me feel better in the long run. That wasn’t so clear from the email that Primephonic sent this morning.
Exactly. If you gave people hope that it'd stick around for an indefinite amount of time you'd just have more discourse about "Apple could shut it down any day now" and you'd slowly dwindle subscribers anyways.
The most interesting thing about this is that Apple's pre-announcing that they're going to be launching a dedicated classical music app. Presumably it'll be very closely based on the current Primephonic app, and worked on by the same developers.
This has some close parallels to Apple buying Workflow and turning it into their now-platform-standard Shortcuts app. It's still being worked on by the original developers, too.
Shortcuts has been given fairly high priority in all Apple's recent OS releases, particularly as it ties into their home automation ecosystem, and it's resulted in surprising bursts of popularity. E.g. last years "#aesthetic" complete-homescreen-customization boom was entirely based on using Shortcuts as a hack to customize app icons.
It's been honestly weird to see such a relatively high profile part of the OS being run as a mostly-independent subsidiary like that, particularly given Apple's notorious control-freak ways. Them expanding the approach like this rather than just cramming it into Music suggests that they think it's working well for them...
The FAQ indicates that they're providing a pro-rated refund for all current subscriptions.
Like a number of other commentators, I'd never heard of this service despite being a fan of classical. If they can improve the state of classical on Apple Music -- playlists, metadata, discoverability, etc -- then I'm sure the founders are thrilled that they're going to have far more of an impact than they were having.
It will be interesting to see if others are similarly taken off the table. I've been tremendously impressed by the Berlin Philharmonik app, for instance; they've made a subscription service available on nearly every platform (AppleTV, iOS, Android, and even including the random Sony BluRay player I got for $35 on Amazon). The music is live-streamed with HD video like you were there in the hall.
Have folks seen other classical apps or venues with a savvy approach like this?
I have been seriously considering paying for the Berlin Philharmonik subscription/access. My main use-case would be to listen to their archives of performances.
Do you recommend it? Also, does it allow you to "buffer" (save offline) some content at all?
It's pricey but I like it. I like the archived performances too. It does let you play some content offline. It has let me feel a bit more cultured when locked in a garage for a year and a half working on a startup during a pandemic!
I can second this. I’ve been fairly impressed with Idagio in the years I’ve been using it. My only real gripe with it is that it used to be much easier to glance through a composer’s works by genre when looking at the composer’s page. Now that feature is buried a couple of menus down. Otherwise, the audio quality is good for a streaming service, and the catalog is extensive.
(At one point they were testing a feature where you could compare recordings of the same piece. It would effectively allow you to switch between pieces at the exact same moment in the particular passage you were listening to. It was great, and I’m sad they never rolled it out. That feature alone would have made the app worth the monthly subscription.)
My gripe is the 1/2 second pause between tracks, even when they're supposed to blend together, like between 3rd and 4th movements of Beethoven's 5th. Otherwise it's awesome.
I'm hard of hearing. The problem I have with Idagio is their low audio level - much less than e.g. Apple Music. I don't see any good reason for that - I don't need to be protected from myself. I finally cancelled - I couldn't hear the music. Currently, I like Tidal a lot. They have a video of Nemanja Radulovic / Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor which is stunning.
When I tried Idagio about a year ago their catalogue consisted of “second rate” labels for a large part. There was some DG/Harmonia Mundi/Sony but mostly releases by lesser known labels. Is that still the case?
Congratulations to the team! I had great fun working there and the knowledge of classical music within the team was astonishing. Most staff are musical in some way - Friday afternoon drinks was occasionally an orchestra with singers! A very unique experience :-)
Readit News
Where an app may have an "artist" field, classical music will have "composer" and then for the performers it will have "orchestra", "conductor", "principal soloists". For an opera all of those are primary fields that could be considered "artist".
The variations of the data is huge, only last week I had to correct Tchaikovsky in my own data and looking at the variations I see online:
This is something everyone gets wrong, and yet whomever gets it right is going to help make it easier for people to find and celebrate classical music, and to expose more people to classical music.Even if today you know that you love Beethoven's Symphony No 3... finding the best performance and recording is almost impossible, and if you do happen to stumble upon it on a streaming service getting back to it later (if it wasn't the only one in your recents) is difficult.
I'm really glad someone is investing in this, and it needs to be a different app / interface to handle this difference in metadata and in weighting of the fields. Capturing the intent of "oh, this person really just wants to search Gould as a principal soloist and weight the search that way" is far easier when you have an app that can provide a classical music perspective and filter over an existing library.
PS: Plex does this really badly too... whatever you do, don't let the Plex Music Agents decide the metadata, Verdi disappeared and had the metadata for Veridia which I believe is a rock band.
Thus far, I think I like baroque and Bach makes me happy. I’m starting to think I love opera but I might just have a thing for Maria Callas. However, I’m open to any and all recommendations and will love the hell out of anyone who recommends anything. I prefer vinyl but I’ll buy an 8 track if it helps.
(Whenever I’ve asked HN for help, I’ve ended up with new favourite recordings of all time. Thanks to all the classical music lovers who have really enhanced my life throughout the years.)
If you're new to classical music you really don't need to worry about this. Almost all available professional recordings are of high quality, and the differences between interpretations are relatively subtle.
What is important is to get a sense of which composers you enjoy. Classical music spans a large period of time with very different styles, so try a few well-known composers from different time periods to see what you like. I greatly enjoy classical music and I regularly attend(ed) concerts, but my interests are very narrow and I don't get a lot of enjoyment out of Mozart and Beethoven for instance.
In my opinion, classical music is best enjoyed when you devote your full attention to listening to the music, i.e. when you're not doing anything else (or something with a very low cognitive load, like walking/driving/etc). Focus on how the music makes you feel, but it's okay to let your thoughts wander off a bit.
Classical music rewards close listening, but orchestral pieces can be overwhelming to those who haven't trained themselves to listen closely. This is a good set of recordings to start with, as there are only a handful of performers, each with a distinctive sound.
Digression: once one has learned the pieces, this can be a good audio assessment tool. Some speakers over-amplify specific sounds. Some amps muddy certain frequencies or complex sounds. A string quartet performing similar melodies is a great way to notice this.
This specific album was the first that really opened my eyes to audio quality differences. If all four instruments are playing, I should be able to hear them. If all I can hear is the viola, there's something wrong with the system. Or, if I can suddenly hear all four where I couldn't before... These are significant differences, not minor ones.
From there, it was learning finer details. The first time I could hear the attack, sustain, and release of a note on a stringed instrument. Changing equipment and suddenly getting what "soundstage" meant. Etc.
This album also kept me honest when diving into the potentially incredibly expensive and super opinionated audiophile world. How does this compare to my personal system? Am I noticing anything I've not noticed before? Is anything missing? Do the answers to these questions justify spending money? Surprisingly, the answer most of the time to the last question was no.
For a neophyte, I think it's good to start with the war horses, for which there are lots of high-quality modern recordings.
- Bach Brandenberg concerti (I like the Netherlands Bach Society, they have tons of great Bach recordings on Youtube. If you're into Bach, highly recommend you check them out.)
- Goldberg variations (I like Glen Gould's later recording, but Kimiko Ishizaka is also a great libre recording, and Netherlands Bach Society has a great recording on harpsichord)
- Mozart Symphony 40
- Mozart piano, violin sonatas
- Beethoven Symphonies 3,5,9 (I really like https://www.youtube.com/user/hrSinfonieorchester)
- Chopin waltzes, etudes, nocturnes
- Rach piano concerto 2, Rhapsody on a Theme by Paganini
- Sibelius violin concerto (I like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0w0t4Qn6LY)
- Bruch violin concerto
Personally I think watching videos helps bring the music alive in a way that listening to recordings doesn't. And maybe it's heresy to some, but I think modern recordings are, in general, a lot more pleasant to listen to.
HTH!
We've released a lot of free content on Youtube, especially this year: https://www.youtube.com/thesebastians . Just today I released four recent performances, including Bach's fifth Brandenburg concerto: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHr9-Ht2XSI .
Happy listening!
Since you already like Bach, start by exploring his work!
Let's start with the Goldberg Variations, which are 30 variations on a theme set for the keyboard. Glenn Gould's 1955 recording is perhaps the best known recording of this work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwas_7H5KUs
I also greatly enjoy Andras Schiff's interpretations of Bach: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbOwhF1hFcg
For opera, I suggest starting with the Magic Flute by Mozart. There are so many good recording to choose from but why not watch the thing? It's meant to be a visual/audio format, after all! I suggest this recording of the Metropolitan Opera - it's what got me hooked on operas many years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjZfHFPIk7g
If you like Maria Callas, you'll love Italian operas. Why not start with the classic, La Traviata? I can't find any of Callas's performances online (aside from clips), but you may like this performance with Anna Netrebko: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYGiRbDHr7k
Finally, a note on where/how to listen to classical music. I find Youtube to be an incredible tool for listening and for discovery. It's not necessary to dig back to vinyl or 8-track to listen to great performances - they've been remastered for CDs and lossless media.
But ultimately you want to listen to it in person. I'll never forget seeing my first opera in person (The Flying Dutchman). Or the time I scored orchestra seats for Sibelius's 4th symphony. Until the performances return, you might want to buy a ticket to an online performance on DG Premium, which is Deutsche Grammophon's streaming service: https://www.dg-premium.com/
Good luck and good listening!
EDIT: Alas, the Magic Flute performance I linked to doesn't have subtitles! Boo! Here's one that does, though it's not the classic Met production: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPxrbeR5ZyE
https://www.classical-music.com/features/artists/20-greatest...
Some personal favourites:
Brahms 4 - Carlos Kleiber / Vienna Philharmonic (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho-H-8FzbU8)
Mahler 2 - Claudio Abbado / Lucerne (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MPuoOj5TIw)
Shostakovich Symphonies - Bernard Haitink / London Philharmonic / Concertgebouw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS4dcZ90fN0)
One thing to look out for in baroque is original instruments vs modern instruments performances. Original instruments have a very different - leaner - sound. I find I much prefer them now. Someone like John Eliot Gardiner is amazing in original instruments Bach.
Try listening to string quartets. Here are a few brilliant ones:
All of Schubert: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nK-_o1OYLszr8d...
Shostakovich 8: https://youtu.be/HgExfvXq7VI
Beethoven 10 (Harp): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exMaWKVcCEs
Mendelssohn 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UAU7xbTOyA
There are so many more but string quartets are such a wonderful place to get started. Intimate, pure music, with so much passion and excitement.
In general as a beginner I wouldn't worry too much about finding the best recording of any particular piece. Once you start to develop some favorites then you can pick a few and compare. Streaming services make this a lot easier and cheaper than it used to be.
The Great Pianists, by Harold C. Shonberg
https://www.amazon.com/Great-Pianists-Mozart-Present/dp/0671...
You don't have to worry about reading the whole thing. Read through Bach and Mozart (and maybe Beethoven) to begin with. You'll get a feel for the historical background, and mention of their major pieces. Then, you go listen to the pieces.
I know these are pianists, but a good number of the great composers were some of the foremost pianists of their time.
Supplement a composer you've read about with a YouTube video or two, and their entry in Wikipedia, and you're off to a great start.
Anyway, that's one approach.
Some other good stuff would be all the symphonies by Mozart and Beethoven. Vivaldi's four seasons.
Also try Bach's Brandenburg Concertos, and Goldberg Variations.
For opera listen to some of the overtures and highlights by Wagner (Tannhauser, Tristan & Isolde, Lohengrin).
[1]: Turns out I'm unable to share her playlist, but...
[2]: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2Foxcns6j4SwiWIWiaEtKX?si=...
Check out the 1/4 comma meantone version of Mozart Fantasie KV397 [1] which you can compare to equal temperament. (Please note this piece was unfinished, and the final section is believed to have been written by someone else.)
My secret love is Chopin Ballade No. 4 Op. 52 in unequal temperament [2]. Last year this video had ~4k views. I may be responsible for 1k and it's now ~8k views. You can compare a good ET version Krystian Zimmerman [3].
Jacob Collier has referred to Equal Temperament as a "hoax" [4]
[1]: https://youtu.be/lzsEdK48CDY?t=701
[2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJT5Q6HooyA
[3]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe-GrRQz8pk
[4]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwRSS7jeo5s
Sounds like a lot of work, but remember it should be fun! It’s new music, a bunch of which you’ve probably never heard before. Have an open mind and dive in!
Also, assuming you have access where you live and the means, live music doesn’t have to be prohibitively expensive. Check out the programs at your local concert halls and go down to hear some music.
https://apps.apple.com/us/app/beethovens-9th-symphony/id6019...
With Beethoven's 9th, while you are listening it visually syncs the original manuscript and score, a visualization of where in the orchestra different instruments are playing, and includes analysis of the performance and intention of the parts. It also lets you switch between four different performances of the 9th by the Berliner Philharmoniker, so you can compare and contrast interpretations over the years.
Highly recommended!
I'd throw in Beethoven's 3rd and 5th Symphonies.
I'd also throw in something like Verdi's Rigoletto and Rossini's Barber of Seville.
In my past I owned a record label which specialised in pop, rock and folk music. I had to learn classical like I had to learn jazz. But the thing that made this easier for me was the realisation that there is far far more rock / pop than there is classical or jazz. It can be intimidating but you only need an entry point to get you started. Whatever that is will be personal to you, but the best advice anyone can give is to just listen.
He adds lots of fun history to go with it. Bach's Goldberg Variations was his greatest financial success "The Count presented him with a golden goblet filled with 100 louis-d'or." and he was obsessed with coffee. Coffee cantana by him as well.
In general I would not worry to much about the performer, but it might be interesting to listen to different interpretations of the same piece, particularly from composers with very idiosyncratic styles. On youtube, Ashish Xiangyi Kumar (https://www.youtube.com/c/AshishXiangyiKumar) has videos of pieces (mainly piano solo) interpreted by different artist.
These days those have mostly been scrubbed from Youtube and if they're still they're they're pretty undiscoverable since the suggestion algorithm is so bad now.
https://open.spotify.com/playlist/5iXkMfXJPsaqcAgZBu6eAU
This all takes time ... and will probably change over time for you. Try to make mental (or paper) notes when you really like a performance. Some conductors are really good in certain periods, but are flat in others.
In the past few years, I most enjoyed Christian Thielemann's conducting of the Beethoven symphonies. Pretty hard to go wrong with the Vienna Philharmonic ... before Brahms, that is. OTOH, Karajan ruins everything. ;->
Some of the great stations (imho -- KDFC in SF, CPR Classical Colorado, King FM in Seattle, Portland's station) have outstanding DJs who talk about the composers, soloists, conductors, orchestras, time period, etc.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oYWfJuMGMAhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebm69gW9UlI
https://www.king.org/
Whenever I hear something I like, I write down the piece and the conductor/orchestra.
They helped me find all sorts of good recordings and compositions that I otherwise wouldn't have listened to. For some reason, for my whole life I thought I didn't like Brahms. But the third time that I heard some breathtaking piece, thinking "what is this??", and then finding out it was Brahms, I realized my mind had been changed.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3aVET-CDRWk
https://www.wfmt.com/programs/exploring-music/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploring_Music
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_McGlaughlin
https://www.thegreatcourses.com/courses/how-to-listen-to-and...
It can be had for cheap via audible.
> Whenever I’ve asked HN for help, I’ve ended up with new favourite recordings of all time.
What are your favorite recordings? I’ve been listening to a lot of Bach myself lately, but I am also a neophyte. I got into Bach via the Modern Jazz Quartet’s John Lewis’ interpretations of the Well Tempered Clavier. Bach has been a trip.
So you must listen to her in Aida and La Traviata.
As far as classical one of the most amazing pieces I can recommend is Scheherazade by Korsakov.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scheherazade_(Rimsky-Korsakov)
I think that's actually the way it should be. People tend to hype this or that conductor or sound, and there is certainly merit to it, but I think it is even more a matter of taste than the actual music. Once you really like a certain symphony, you will listen to it many times. Then, you will have some opinion on how things should be played to excite you, make you happy etc.
Min/maxing composer/performance dyads based on reputation is probably pretty nonsensical, even if it is nerdy fun. For example, there are some pieces I really like, and I acknowledge that Karajan is "the man", but his recording simply doesn't give me the right vibe to enjoy the music compared to some obscure conductor I found somewhere on an old compilation CD.
One last thing: I personally do not enjoy Bach, much of Mozart, Vivaldi or "Classical"/Baroque music. There is a whole world of stuff beyond that, however, and some of it is very different. Bruckner, Mahler, Brahms, Tchaikovsky, Dvorak, Mendelssohn.
In fact, the first thing I recommend is usually Dvorak 9th Symphony "A new World". Its second movement (Largo I think it is called) is eye-wateringly beautiful, but it also doesn't turn off people who get bored by Bach, Mozart, Vivaldi et al (like me).
The FAQ on the right side of the home page has links to introductory pages.
You're starting on a fun journey!
[0] https://www.reddit.com/r/classicalmusic/
Nikolai Kasputin wrote a lot of jazz-inspired, but still "classical" pieces. Won't quite sound like much of the rest of what you'll encounter.
Baroque / Europa Galante / Fabio Biondi
Ancient music / La Capella Reial de Catalunya / Jordi Saval
Tchaikovsky was stored as 'Пётр Ильи́ч Чайко́вский'. As you might expect, this turned out to be a bad idea on many levels:
* No searching
* Always ends up on the top/bottom of alphabetically sorted lists
* Took much longer to work out which artist it was because I'm not fluent in Cyrillic
* The Microsoft Zune's fonts did not support most non-ASCII characters (this was a big one!)
That being said, I was young and it looked cool, so I kept it :)
People complained about the bloat in iTunes, but at times all those features did come in handy! I'll miss the depth of features once Apple finally ends up replacing the Mac music app with a port of the dumbed-down streaming service they have on iOS.
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Actually I go further, I think those into art should always express that through ownership.
Books go out of print or the translation varies. Films are unavailable if they're not one of the top grossing films, and even if they are then they can be unavailable (i.e. Disney exercising artificial scarcity over historical titles).
I own and ripped over 6k CDs into FLAC a long time ago, and still a good number of these are not available on streaming services even though they were major releases in the UK in the 1990s and 2000s. Why? Because the coverage of EPs, Singles, B-sides, and some variations of albums (Japanese imports with extra tracks) isn't represented by Spotify, Google Music, Tidal, Apple, etc.
The only way to ensure you can enjoy something in the future is to own it today.
For me, music, video and book streaming / digital rental fills a different problem space - discovery before ownership.
Going by my streaming history, if I owned the recordings I listened too I'd have a full CD shelf for the late Beethoven Sonatas. The same again for the Concerto's, perhaps two for the Symphonies. I've just spent £150 at IKEA just to hold the basics of Beethoven, before I've even got the CD's!
Of course the alternative is to only listen to my 'preferred' interpretations, which is the unimaginable boredom. Zimerman's ballades are too dry, Perahia's too wet, Horowitz's too unorthodox, Ashkenazy's too uneven; but I'll listen to all of them again and again and again. I'm not picking a favourite here. I'd forget Chopin before I pick one.
Finally, so what if my streaming service comes and goes? I just go somewhere else.
I find classical music even more enjoyable if you have the sheet music to follow along.
I hate to admit it, but Spotify has made me lazy when it comes to music discovery, to the point where the only way I get excited to find new things is by digging for vinyl at a record store. The services feel built for passive entertainment consumption, not discovering and learning about new art.
Consider for example the Cannonball Adderley album "Somethin' Else" [1]. The album artist is Cannonball because he led the session, but he is in no way the 'author' of the entire album. The performances of Miles, Hank, Sam and Art on their respective instruments are what make the album what it is. In addition, some of the tunes are 'standards': "Autumn Leaves" is by Kosma and "Love for Sale" is by Porter, although I suppose this info could be stored in the ID3 composer field on each track.
I would love a way to track performers across all my jazz albums and be able to see which albums different people performed on.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somethin%27_Else_(Cannonball_A...
That said, I don't know how much of a market there'd be for this
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERPmUsLkwEE
https://i.imgur.com/HF59nNj.png
The albums spontaneously splitting is not limited to classical music. It has happened several times that an album I had added to the library got replaced by a dozen best-off albums containing 1-2 songs each.
As an Apple Music subscriber, I welcome the acquisition, and hope that problems like these will be reduced, and I can listen to the 4th concerto in one go again.
One solution is to use musicbrainz, and contribute as you go.
https://musicbrainz.org/artist/9ddd7abc-9e1b-471d-8031-583bc...
https://musicbrainz.org/work/80737426-8ef3-3a9c-a3a6-9507afb...
Some googling seems to suggest that's Primephonic but I'm not 100% sure about it (since they took down all their pages).
Yeah, this is maddening. Although in many ways it's not isolated to classical - the whole standards for tagging and the presentation thereof are woefully inadequate for any case where you want to be able to have a soloist or multiple composers but be able to find the same composer/songwriter regardless of who they've worked with, or featured artists in hiphop, or...
I can understand that back in the MP3 days of the late 90s/early years of the century it was "a good start" but the lack of any meaningful improvements is woeful.
I'm honestly pretty surprised the metadata problem hasn't been solved by now. Even if the labels are providing it in an inconsistent format, cleaning it all up to 99.9% consistency seems like it could be done fairly efficiently. The universe of the names of classical composers and performers isn't that large.
https://www.idagio.com/
"OK, playing 'Act 2, Chanson, "Halte-là! Qui va là?", by Georges Bizet, José Carreras & Claudine Coster & Isabelle Karajan & Alain Hitier & Maria Laborit & Berliner Philharmoniker & Herbert von Karajan & Georges Bizet ..."
It was just endless!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=352qLWqKN-U
A lot of companies have been investing in this for a while now. Primephonic (which Apple just bought) is only one example. I use Idagio, and I'm very impressed with the quality of the metadata and the search function.
Deleted Comment
No one except the platform actually has the right to merge artist names together when the artist is out of copyright.
If Apple does this well it could be enough to get me to switch from Spotify to Apple Music. I am not optimistic though.
What do I mean? Richard David James went by several different aliases. They're all the same person. But not the same persona? Maybe.
Couldn't Pac-Mac by Power Pill just be considered Aphex Twin's work? I'd argue, sure.
But Brad Strider's work, which is really just Richard again, is in my opinion significant enough from the rest of his work, can you group them together? Discogs still does, and that makes sense to me.
This is utter insanity. I understand acquiring, and "sunsetting" the acquisition when it makes sense, blocking new user signups, and heck I'd even say its pretty cool that they're planning on releasing a totally separate experience for Apple Music classical listeners.
But why shut down Primephonic before this new experience is ready? It just pisses off the already niche and hesitant customer-base you've announced you're trying to court!
Sad day as a user…
Update: I didn’t see the part where there’s going to be a new dedicated app. That makes me feel better in the long run. That wasn’t so clear from the email that Primephonic sent this morning.
This has some close parallels to Apple buying Workflow and turning it into their now-platform-standard Shortcuts app. It's still being worked on by the original developers, too.
Shortcuts has been given fairly high priority in all Apple's recent OS releases, particularly as it ties into their home automation ecosystem, and it's resulted in surprising bursts of popularity. E.g. last years "#aesthetic" complete-homescreen-customization boom was entirely based on using Shortcuts as a hack to customize app icons.
It's been honestly weird to see such a relatively high profile part of the OS being run as a mostly-independent subsidiary like that, particularly given Apple's notorious control-freak ways. Them expanding the approach like this rather than just cramming it into Music suggests that they think it's working well for them...
Except the 6 months of free apple music i never wanted in the first place there is confusing messaging what this means for my subscription.
I hope the founders are happy with their exit.
Like a number of other commentators, I'd never heard of this service despite being a fan of classical. If they can improve the state of classical on Apple Music -- playlists, metadata, discoverability, etc -- then I'm sure the founders are thrilled that they're going to have far more of an impact than they were having.
It will go the same way as my Dark Skies purchase. You either move into the Apple walled garden, or make do without that service.
Download your flacs while you can.
Have folks seen other classical apps or venues with a savvy approach like this?
Do you recommend it? Also, does it allow you to "buffer" (save offline) some content at all?
(At one point they were testing a feature where you could compare recordings of the same piece. It would effectively allow you to switch between pieces at the exact same moment in the particular passage you were listening to. It was great, and I’m sad they never rolled it out. That feature alone would have made the app worth the monthly subscription.)
Wish I'd never given Primephonic a cent. The knee jerk is to blame Apple, but the real villains are the owners of Primephonic.
The main label I personally miss is Hyperion but I'm not sure they're streaming anywhere.