My experience has shown that USB C connectors are far more fragile than A, and every time I plug one in, for some reason the fit just feels vague and unsatisfying. An A plug, when you get it the right way, slides in solidly. As others have mentioned, C seems to have been designed to be the smallest possible, which makes sense for mobile devices, but not for a desktop and its peripherals.
Interestingly enough, they're specced the opposite way.
> Standard USB has a minimum rated lifetime of 1,500 cycles of insertion and removal, the Mini-USB receptacle increased this to 5,000 cycles, and the newer Micro-USB and USB-C receptacles are both designed for a minimum rated lifetime of 10,000 cycles of insertion and removal. [1]
> To accomplish this, a locking device was added and the leaf-spring was moved from the jack to the plug, so that the most-stressed part is on the cable side of the connection. This change was made so that the connector on the less expensive cable would bear the most wear. [1]
I suspect that would make it the responsibility of the cable, not the receptacle, to give you that satisfying feedback. Which is good, because the cable is much cheaper and easier to replace than the receptacle.
The insertion cycles are only for proper insertion. Like when you are looking at it and doing it at a correct angle.
Also, rated lifetime does not take into account things like tugging the cable to the side of your PC because your foot got tangled in it.
USB C is extremely fragile due to its size and not much can be done to help it.
USB C might be created to withstand more insertion cycles. After all it is meant to be used for devices like phones that are plugged in and out constantly. Part of this improvement is just more experience creating connectors (yes, connectors got much better in the past decades).
A cable connected to a back of PC is not being constantly plugged in and out. Nobody I know is plugging in their keyboard or mouse multiple times a day.
--
When I design my boards, I put connectors that match the size of the board. I don't put extremely tiny connectors on a very large and massive project. I want a connector that isn't too fragile for the project and this means matching it with the forces that you can expect.
We, humans, use different forces when around large objects than when we are around small objects.
Large PC standing on your desk means forces used around it will be potentially larger than forces around a small appliance like a phone. If you tug on a cable that is hooked up to the phone, only small force is needed to move the phone. And we are usually more careful around a small appliance like phone. If you tug on a cable that is hooked up to a PC, much larger force will be needed before you move the PC. And people are less careful and using larger forces when doing things around a PC -- a larger object than a phone.
Micro-USB had on paper better insertion/removal cycles than Mini-USB, but in practice Micro-USB connectors were flimsy garbage and Mini-USB fairly robust for the size.
> To accomplish this, a locking device was added and the leaf-spring was moved from the jack to the plug, so that the most-stressed part is on the cable side of the connection. This change was made so that the connector on the less expensive cable would bear the most wear.
Not arguing that this isn't a good idea, but considering that the A port looks gigantic compared to C it seems those springs being a couple times larger also makes them a lot more durable, to the point where it's a non-issue.
Personally I think these numbers are fabricated horseshit, drafted by some engineer behind a desk running endless simulations.
The USB industrial complex made the same claims with micro-USB vs mini-USB; and are now doing it again with Type-C.
My empirical evidence: I've now had to replace two laptop motherboards due to a (mechanically) failed USB-C port.
Guess what I haven't had to do in 25 years? Replace a failed USB-A socket. Ever.
USB-C connectors are fragile and companies are making more and more large, heavy cables with huge connectors especially common with Thunderbolt or port replicator-type devices. It is a recipe for disaster and they expect us to fall for this USB Jedi Mind Trick again.
I think it's a bit ironic that the cable is considered more costly than the receptacle, which is generally true if you consider the device as a whole, but now we have multiple hundreds of dollars thunderbolt cables and the cap on the actual receptacle component is below $10 even for ones with support for higher speeds.
But then again, most people don't have the SMD rework tooling to be able to easily replace receptacles
Micro-USB and USB-C receptacles are both designed for a minimum rated lifetime of 10,000
The idea that micro-USB and USB-C are supposed to be equally durable is the wrongest thing I've read all day. Frankly, mini-USB is the single most delicate connector I've ever used. Other than a couple PDAs, I never owned a single mini-USB device those receptacle didn't end up breaking off the board.
Same here. I've experienced flaky connections with several USB-C ports, and sometimes the port itself gets dislodged. I've had devices RMA'd because of it.
Nowadays I'm very careful when plugging in USB-C, doing my best to not pull on the cable, etc. It's overall a worse UX than with USB-A, and being reversible doesn't make up for it.
Then you have the mess of protocols and standards that use the connector, where I need to use specific cables for specific devices, and I'm never sure which one is which. The term "universal" in USB has completely lost its meaning.
Rather, the cable became universal and the protocols diverged. But I’m fairly sure the situation will be fixed by the adoption of USB-PD as the ultimate power standard. As all the other standards (QC and else) are including it in their own. And the remaining HDMI devices will be phased out in a decade or so.
Then you’ll need to only care about the wattage rating when charging devices. Seems like future for me.
I don't think this is anymore than growing pains. Do you guys seriously misremember how terrible usb-a ports were? Now they're the gold standard apparently.
At the risk of sounding a bit dumb, I shorted my motherboard with a USB A, it felt like I got it right, and pushed it in, at which point it shutdown. Fortunately there didn't seem to be any permanent damage
Happens to the best of us. I also had a bit of a scare like that recently. The only thing worse than a non-reversible connector is one that breaks (or fries your device) when you insert it the wrong way...
One issue with USB-C is that dust gets packed into the female side. I've found it can be in there so tight that even after attempting to clean it, the dust remains. But going in with a sewing needle, rubbing alcohol, and really scraping you can fix the port.
Connectors which have consistently shifting pressure applied, especially from side to side, are going to fail faster regardless of the design. It just so happens that the side that's most likely to be in this state is the side connected to the phone you're holding, the headphones you're wearing, etc. I have seen USB and Lightning ports fail on tons of different devices where the user is actively using the device while it is plugged in, even when they treat it gingerly and even without any identified sharp tugs or the like.
I've taken to using Volta plugs for all my USB devices at the device side to prolong the life of their ports, and it's great for unifying micro USB, Lightning, and USB-C onto one cable. Highly recommend them!
That said I agree USB-C connectors on desktop motherboards are particularly poorly made, and indeed make an unsatisfying connection.
I think that’s dependent on the port, there are some I’ve plugged into with a very satisfying click and it felt very secure. But you’re right the cheap ones are pretty vague.
I don't know. I can easily lift my phone by the USB-C cable. And as for the connectors, sure USB-A usually has 4 through-hole mounting and through-hole live pins[^1] so the connection to the board is rock solid, but USB-C connectors, despite having surface-mounted live pins tend to have shallow mounting pins as well[^2]. I find it pretty durable.
I have the same experience. The USB-C on my phone is dyin. Charging the phone has become a challenge. Yet on my 12 years old computer, the front USB A ports are a bit loose, but still working properly.
100% agree with this. My 2.5yr old phone will not longer register the usb-c port and I have to charge it wirelessly. My PC still has a few USB connection ports from 2009 that still work. (Although most are newer than that)
We've had a problem with the cables provided with ThinkVision USB-C monitors. They're so horribly stiff either end gets quite a lot of force exerted on it. We use them for hot-desk setups at work and I've seen multiple with the metal part of the plug broken off from the plastic shroud.
I've asked for some "Cable Matters" ones to be bought as that's a brand I recognise and _think_ is good, we'll see!
Broke my light macbook air from being so tightly connect it dropped, macbook also had very short charger cables for a while.
While being so tight it often refuse to charge because of it being so good in collecting dust and having a long neck that makes a small hit bend it so it doesn't work.
In a macbook pro build it certainly feels like this. I have an old 2015 mbp with A connectors serving for almost ten years now. When I plug something in it is tight and solid and feels right. On my latest mbp with C connectors, they are loose already after a year of service, I need to wiggle and shake the connector inside the port to get a nice contact and make peripherals work, of course, that breaks it even more over time.
I recently moved my display over to running on USB-C, so I could have one cable to charge my laptop and feed the display. Plugging it in was a very unsatisfying experience. The port seemed misaligned, so I had to be a fair amount of effort into it, and once I got it, it felt like nothing. I was worried when I rotated the monitor back into position, or adjusted the hight, that it would fall out. I haven’t thought about that in years with other ports. It works, and I like that it’s one cable, but the feel is awful.
Interesting. This is completely the opposite for me. I have bend a ton of usb-a cables over the years. Has never happened to me with usb-c the connector for industrictable to me.
Of course, no one wants a big connector in their cell phone, so we’ll have to make a mini C. And then a micro C. And then they’ll make USB D to try to simplify all of these competing standards.
That said the form factor of type C is a little too small to be wieldy to me.
Those exist[1]. I reckon connector size is an issue on smaller devices, but there's no reason why USB-C couldn't be improved to make the connection more secure.
No matter how much I baby USB-C connectors on phones, I eventually end up in a place where I'm wiggling the cable to get it to pick up that it's plugged in to charge - usually around the time i start looking for a new phone.
I'd like a Framework style swappable USB charging port already.
I got my HTC vive.out of the closet today and as usual hate USB micro and love USB c.
Usb-c just fits.
Do you mean the real USB plug the bigger one? Those are dependent on my device. The USB a port on my desktop case are okay, the ones at the back of my Mainboard way to tight.
Because the bigger connector, if it's attached at its corners or throughout the length, can phisically better withstand the shearing physical forces applied to it.
that is a very good observation and I agree. I guess that can be fixed, and high quality c-connectors will provide this sensation, just look at the iphone lightning connector which IMO provides something similar.
I notice a lot of people are arguing against usb c, but in reality: devices are designed for the average consumer, not us special HN peeps, usb c is the way forward, we can't use a bulky almost industrial USB connection forever, having a single type of connection has so many benefits, if someone exceeds the plug/unplug rating or the socket breaks for some other reason...it can just be repaired.
Everyone arguing against c like they wanna go back to old style serial port connectors or something.
calling USB A “legacy” and a “relic” is so misplaced. we all still own USB A devices. I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB C plug. it’s possible, but not easy.
the thing is, we could just have both! this isn’t some winner/loser scenario. the real question should be why these computers with enough bandwidth for 11+ connectors don’t at least split the difference with 6/5 of each. gives device manufacturers enough confidence that customers will be able to plug in the thing they bought, and gives consumers the ability to plug in anything and everything they need. then in 5 years when things have advanced we can start talking about entirely consolidating on USB C.
> I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB C plug. it’s possible, but not easy.
My Moonlander Mk1 does, it has C-to-C cable with an optional C-to-A adapter on one end. My mouse is type C, but it comes with C-to-A cable.
But, obviously, this is chicken-and-egg kind of a problem. No one will build a cheap mass market keyboard with a C-to-C cable for a market (desktop computer users) where type C connectors are nearly non-existent. Extra components (adapters or extra cables) won't be worth it. If the majority of desktops will shift to have majority of their ports of type C, you won't find a type A keyboard anymore. Just like you will have some difficulty finding a PS/2 keyboard today (sure they exist, but aren't exactly widespread anymore).
USB A was released in 1996, it's older than I suspect the majority of HN readers at this point. An A to C cable is entirely passive, so not exactly a big deal to get a cheap adapter.
Not sure I'd rely on keyboards as the standard bearer for 'not a relic' many of them still support PS/2 via passive adapter. That was announced in 1987 and is older than me.
Comparing technology to human lifetimes doesn't seem very relevant. Even not accounting for broad categories like "fire" or "language", we're still using individual technology from "long ago" like knives, forks, pen and paper, etc. It's fine to make improvements that keep backwards compatibility (more ergonomic scissor should be able to cut the same paper), but changing connector just because it's old is unwise.
The issue of type C is that it's trying to accommodate the entire spectrum of applications from very high bandwidth to very low cost. The range of possibilities has much increased since when Universal Serial Bus was devised, thus many recent solutions feel like they're bad at everything and good at nothing. Perhaps we should allow the specialization of type A as a cheap, reliable, slow, high power, connector, and save type C for only when high throughput is needed?
Weirdly, the port on a cheap mechanical keyboard I have is USB-C but the cable they packaged is USB-C -> USB-A instead. They likely didn't package C->C because of the chicken and egg problem. Not everyone has enough Type-C ports.
Type-C hubs are annoyingly expensive, because they all assume you want all the USB 3.x speed and/or power delivery bells and whistles - but for connecting simple peripherals none of that is necessary.
I built my own based on a USB 2.0 hub IC, but I never got around to publishing the design files. I should get on that!
Even building a single prototype unit cost me about the same as a single off-the-shelf type-C hub, but of course, building subsequent units would be substantially cheaper.
Almost every device I’ve bought in 2023 is usb-c now, even low end stuff, and keyboards and mice. By 2025 I’d expect it’ll be rare and unusual to see a micro port on any new device. USB A is definitely legacy.
PCs still come with half a dozen or more USB-A ports and only a single USB-C port (if you're lucky). Dongles, flash drives, webcams and the like are still prominently USB-A. Logitech's lineup is still mostly USB-A. I'm not sure that there will even be a full transition to USB-C, but if so, it will take quite a while.
i think the GP was talking about wired peripherals that plug into usb-a ports on the computer side, not wireless mice/keyboards which use usb-c to charge
my current wireless mouse/wired keyboard have usb-c on the peripheral end but I still use usb-a to connect them to the computer
My mouse and keyboard are both usb-c and I wasn't specifically looking for usb-c when I ordered either of them. Logitech MX Master 3 and Keychron Q1. They are both relatively high end devices, but I don't think it's hard to find usb-c devices.
That said I do own lots of usb-a devices and will continue to own them for the foreseeable future. I would not purchase a laptop that was usb-c only today.
Is your MX Master the "mac" version? The reason I ask is because my 3s came with a USB-A dongle (which I prefer instead of Bluetooth). I've never used its charging cable, so I don't remember whether it was c-c or c-a. It also didn't have a C-A adapter provided, so if you want to use the dongle and only have usb-c ports available, you have to supply your own.
> calling USB A “legacy” and a “relic” is so misplaced
Calling established technologies "legacy" and "relic" despite them being widely adopted and used should be recognized as the manipulative intellectual dishonesty that it is.
Note that these are keyboards and not mouses, and they have USB-C sockets rather than permanently attached cables with USB-C plugs. They are also very premium products.
When it comes to the entire ecosystem, a $5 bargain-bin noname OEM keyboard with permanently-attached cable is more representative - and those definitely don't come with USB-C yet. That would probably add a few cents to their BOM, so it simply isn't worth it yet.
That is fairly meaningless, though. My six year old CODE keyboard could be USB-C today if I wanted, it uses a detachable USB cable. They wouldn't even need to make any changes to the keyboard other than including a different cable.
My 1996 $2000 Packard Bell was effectively unusable by 2003 or so. My 2003 or so upgraded machine couldn't play Youtube videos by 2012. My early 2013 $600 Lenovo laptop is still going fine today (though it helps that I don't game anymore).
Just don't accidentally stick USB-C into a USB-A port. It will fit and it will short the port, causing the machine to crash. Speaking from experience...
Typically I get it wrong 100% of the time, i.e. I was in the right orientation but misaligned so it does not work, so I flip it, fails again, and then I swear and flip it a second time.
If you get it wrong 50% of the time let me substantially reduce that for you: logo goes 'up' for whatever the normal orientation of your device is. That should clear up 99% of the cases.
I use a docking station to help give me dual monitors on both Mac & Windows. Some monitors don't work in Mac. Maybe I need to get a new docking station.
Maybe it's a chicken and egg thing, but why do we still have usb-a keyboards and mice and thumb drives? wouldn't it make more sense for them all to be usb-c?
I have at least 10 computers in my house, and none of them have more than one usb-c port. More of them have zero. Two of those with a single usb-c are motherboards purchased in the last year or so.
If a mouse or keyboard or thumb drive expects to be used by an apple computer, or a phone, usb-c is the right answer. If it wants to be plugged into a PC, usb-a is a better choice.
USB-C instead of any flavor of USB-B makes a ton of sense, and everyone should adopt that, but USB-C instead of USB-A is a little soon for PC oriented products, IMHO. Wait a few years, or ship with an adapter.
Having them be USB C would mean they could only be used on USB C ports (adapters from USB C socket to USB A plug are forbidden by the USB standard, because they would allow creating the forbidden USB A to USB A cable), while having them be USB A allows them to be used on both USB A ports and (with a simple passive adapter) USB C ports.
My wireless mouse has a usb-c port for charging only (doesn't have a wired mode). But its dongle is usb-a only and no adapter was provided. It's a rather recent and "high-end" model, too: an mx master 3s.
> I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB C plug..
I can confirm, it's a journey. It's the same kind of journey than finding a hair trimmer that charges on USB C.
I see it more as makers being complacent and not giving a fuck though. There's no technical reasons for those to be USB A, and the USB C ones work great.
So yes USB A will be there for a while, and more often than not it's a symbolic middle finger to the buyer, a signal that a product should probably be avoided.
> There's no technical reasons for those to be USB A, and the USB C ones work great.
There's a good technical reason for keyboards and mice to still be USB A: adapters from USB A socket to USB C plug are allowed by the standard, but adapters from USB C socket to USB A plug are forbidden (because they would, together with a common USB C cable, allow creating the forbidden USB A to USB A cable). This means that USB A keyboards and mice can be used in both USB A ports and (with a simple passive adapter) USB C ports, while USB C keyboards and mice could be used only on USB C ports.
Therefore, until having enough free USB C ports in computers is common enough, using USB A ports (with an optional adapter to USB C on the box) on the keyboard or mouse makes sense. This is similar to how, during the transition from serial and PS/2 mice to USB mice, it was common for them to come with a adapter which allowed them to be used either on a USB port or (with the adapter) on a PS/2 port.
> USB A will be there for a while, and more often than not it's a symbolic middle finger to the buyer, a signal that a product should probably be avoided.
You have exceptionally strong opinions about USB A and C.
So yes USB A will be there for a while, and more often than not it's a symbolic middle finger to the buyer, a signal that a product should probably be avoided.
maybe it’s the opposite, it’s a warm hug reassuring you that they’re not going to change things just because some of the cool kids are.
> There's no technical reasons for those to be USB A, and the USB C ones work great
Except that all of their plans already have USB A in them. They'd have to rework the plans. Then, rework the lines making them. Then they'd have 2 versions for a period of time. Someone in accounting and logistics would have to do more work.
Seems like a perfect time to bring that conversation to a halt with the "if it's not broke, don't fix it" line.
Many common power plugs were standardized 50-100 years ago. Compared to them, even USB-A is still new. If all you need is power delivery, there is little reason to switch to yet another plug type, which only exists because of unrelated requirements in other industries.
At introduction there were billions of USB A peripherals and few users with USB C ports. The only sane thing for peripherals to do is ship USB A not wanting to cut out 99% of the market and the only sane thing given that for PCs to do is ship mostly USB A ports. So we start with an obvious optimal choice on all parties parts right now how do we break out of a trivial equilibrium into a mostly USB C universe?
If a PC ships with mostly USB C ports. Well since the majority of accessories are A users are going to be frustrated when they need adapters/a hub to plug in anything because they don't have enough of the ports accessories actually use.
If accessories shift first then users are going to be frustrated when they need adapters or a hub to have enough ports to plug in their accessories.
Remember that the average user keeps a computer for 6 years and they keep accessories longer often throwing things out when they literally stop working or can't be made to work with their new device.
Furthermore even a slight increase in costs is problematic when you margins are fairly razor thing. It's a really hard sell for anyone to move forward.
Apple has a substantial advantage here wherein they have enough good will from their users, enough margin, and enough sway to simply upgrade and tell their users to buy adapters while neither losing profit nor users.
That being said being A is hardly a middle finger for the vast majority of devices which need neither more power/more speed than usb 3.2 2x1 can provide as we are talking about 10Gbps and 15W. The most common accessories are mouse,keyboard,sound,cameras,small storage, less commonly network adapters
We haven't yet found a compelling case for a beefy connection but surely there is right.
High end video capture, high end storage, displays, hubs that serve many fast devices, 10Gbps Ethernet.
None as common as the previously listed and not fun to get working when not every port supports high power, higher speed, or optional features nor every cord. Using such features feels like the plug and pray of the early 90s whereas plugging in a DisplayPort monitor or a standard stereo jack speaker system is as boring as plugging in a toaster.
> calling USB A “legacy” and a “relic” is so misplaced. we all still own USB A devices.
All my client devices have detachable cables. All my host devices are USB-C and have been for a while, except for a) Xbox, b) RPis, c) Car.
a) I rarely plug anything into it except a dedicated charging cable or the odd Xbox-specialized devices.
b) for which client devices (if any) are never unplugged
c) A cable is plugged in and never leaves the port
For general-use client devices I either swapped cables for USB-C to uUSB-A or USB-B or had USB-C OOTB for recent devices, increasingly so on both ends.
I also recently moved from an iPhone 7 to an iPhone 13 Mini. If it wasn't for Apple refusing to do an iPhone 15 Mini I'd be USB-C all around.
> I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB-C plug.
Accepted: I've had both for over a year: Keychron K2, Keychron M1. Logitech has a lot of devices with USB-C client side.
The irony is that one of them came with a USB-A (host side) to USB-C (client side) cable. The other one was C-C with a "upgrade your computer connector" C-A adapter†.
> Then in 5 years
Huh. I've been going all in on USB-C since 2018, my strategy being to pick the new standard through and through and backport/polyfill USB-C on the USB-A host side† as needed, NOT the other way around.
It's absolutely ridiculous that any off-the-self device today has anything else than a USB-C port client-side (which is where most of the mess actually is with all the mini x micro x hispeed x A x B x HDMI x DP connectors). I'm not throwing away any pre-C device or cable, I upgrade existing cables to be USB-C††. If a cable fails I get a C-whatever replacement.
As far as I'm concerned USB-A/B is a relic. Folks cling onto it like they clung to VGA (then, and now HDMI), floppy or optical drives.
It's very easy to bodge together a USB-A connector in a pinch in a way that USB-C just isn't. USB-A is simple and there's literally tens of billions of devices that would be made just a little bit closer to being e-waste if USB-A ports became substantially less common than they already are on mainstream devices. Adapters exist and should exist, but we shouldn't have to rely on them.
No. If we designed everything around its “bodge together in a pinch factor” we wouldn’t have technology let alone industry. It’s just not realistic or practical to live in the past and I do not believe it would be oppressive to ask people who still have a use for type A to buy a $5 adapter. Also the type C connector retains the exact pins you need to use it in 2.0 mode, they’re just smaller. Literally all these adapters do is connect type A pins to type C pins and add a 56kOhm resistor.
Still we live with power sockets and lamp sockets that hark back to Edison times, more than a century ago, and live relatively happily. Backwards compatibility with millions (and hundreds of millions) of existing devices is a powerful force.
While I'm in favor of USB-C connector eventually replacing USB-A connector completely, I think it's best done gradually, with new devices still offering the occasional USB-A socket for quite some time. Remember how slowly PS/2 ports disappeared from PCs which also featured USB sockets next to them, or how PCI and PCIe coexisted for many years on PC motherboards.
> ...people who still have a use for type A to buy a $5 adapter
I have literally tens of devices with usb A to usb B/mini/micro etc. cables, and only a few that have usb C, and even most of those came with a usb A -> usb C cable.
USB A is far from dead and should stay... I don't want to live in an "apple-like world", where you need an adapter for everything that should be included directly in the first place (lika an USB A port!!). And I already have to buy a serial (rs232) adapter, because they removed it for no real reason.
It's also very easy to bodge together a USB-C connector in a pinch that only supports USB 2.0
USB-C is an extraordinarily flexible connector and is super backwards-compatible. If you wanted to provide the exact same support as a USB A port, it's not any more complex. Just finer pitch to solder, but not any finer than anything else on the motherboard.
An A to C cable is also entirely passive. I think it's ok to rely on them. The future is now, time to move on. It's been 27 years.
Have you seen how big the contact pads are on type A, and how small they are on type C? I don't think anyone is "bodging together" a type C connector or soldering anything on its contact pads.
USB-C was designed for highly-integrated mobile devices. Motherboard vendors don't want to deal with power delivery and DisplayPort, and users will be confused when that stuff doesn't work.
When a USB-C port is out in space, rather than flat on a desk, C-to-A adapters create a lever arm that increases the risk of damage. Though this can be solved by using adapters with ~100mm of wire in the middle.
Motherboard vendors don't need to deal with PD and DisplayPort. USB-C will work just fine without them - it'll just behave like any regular old USB port.
Right, but if they do that then people will complain that their USB-C port isn’t working, or about how USB-C is so confusing because you never know what a port does.
They’ve got a choice between doing nothing and having a few people complain, or doing a bunch of work and spending a bunch of money and still having people complain. One of those is a lot easier.
Seems like anyone who would buy anything other than a laptop would be pretty tech savvy, unless they just bought it because of familiarity and habit thinking "Desktops are what we use for home stuff, I don't wanna mess with laptops I don't know much about".
I can't really think of why an average user would want one other than gaming, and PC gamers can likely figure out USB cables.
I haven't ever seen a controller that does the BPSK modulation required for A ports. I suspect the standard was defined, but everyone just decided to do signalling over the CC pins on USB-C and ignore the USB-A standard.
If you know of any controllers that implement the spec, I'm very interested in knowing part numbers! If for no other reason than as a historical curiosity.
1. USB-C is more technically complicated, especially when you want to create a host, and especially when you want to do anything faster than USB 2 speeds. Fully-integrated chips for USB-C are still quite rare, so you have to hook up a handful of different not-exactly-cheap chips to add a USB-C port. On the other hand, USB-A is pretty trivial and can be added at basically zero cost.
2. There's still a wide USB-A ecosystem out there. Having to use adapters suuuucks, so people want to have at least some USB-A ports in their system. Moreover, a lot of more-trivial peripherals feature USB-C ports rather than pigtails, so you can easily connect them to USB-A ports with A-to-C cables.
The balance will slowly shift towards USB-C, but it's not exactly surprising that USB-A is still quite common.
I just want at least 1 of both. For at least the next 10 years. I will still have USB-A peripherals I use daily to weekly until then. I would've paid $100+ extra for a USB-A port on this macbook.
I might be the minority here but I prefer USB-A. The connector feels more robust and I don't worry about damaging it. My keyboard, mouse, webcam, flash drives, etc. all use USB-A. A disadvantage of USB-C is that lint can get in the port and prevent a proper connection (this happens on my phone all the time). I believe that USB-A will be with us for a long time; the wisest thing at this point is to make sure that the latest USB protocols are supported over both physical ports. This was you can use USB-C on devices where small size is a priority (such as smartphones) and USB-A on devices where backwards compatibility/physical ruggedness are priorities.
I have mixed feelings about it. Technologically I definitely prefer USB-C, and the "reversible cable" and "plug fits either way" parts are really neat.
However, they do indeed feel quite a lot more fragile. USB-A is an absolute tank, and I regularly just haphazardly plug it in without paying much attention to it, knowing that I'm not going to damage it. With USB-C I'm always a bit careful about not putting too much strain on the connector - especially as most connectors are rather long and act like a lever!
I can totally see myself breaking off USB-C ports because I forget to unplug the cable to my docking station. With USB-A, I pretty much expect to break the cable first.
> With USB-A, I pretty much expect to break the cable first.
It might seem that way, but the port supposedly breaks more easily than the cable in USB-A, since the A port contains springs (which will eventually get worn out and can be bent).
Anecdotally, I've seen tons of broken A ports with exactly that failure in airplanes, buses, and other places with public USB charging ports that people don't treat particularly nicely.
The leverage of C plugs does seem scary, but I have yet to encounter a broken port – fingers crossed!
Yup, I don't own a single device that uses USB-C either: laptops, tablets, phones, keyboards, mouses, flash drives, network storage devices, routers, wifi access points, printers, scanners, kindles, microcontroller boards, calculators, rechargeable battery chargers, wireless temperature monitors, etc. Everything is USB-A (to micro-B, sometimes mini-B).
Still mad at Apple for removing USB-A. I understand adding USB-C. Why remove them??
When buying an expensive (relatively) computer was a big deal in my house, I had a hard time convincing my dad about the iBook G3 which didn't come with a floppy drive.
I specifically avoid buying anything without USB-C. Not only do I like having everything on the same connector, MicroUSB is often the least reliable part of a device aside from battery calendar aging.
Phone, tablet, laptop, tyre pump, MiFi 5G hotspot, VPN router, portable monitor... most of my devices are USB C, except for my car (2019 - recent rentals are USB C), desktop PC, keyboard and mouse.
I think it's great for travel, combined with an Anker 737 or similar battery and Anker 736 100W charger.
Unless everything is fairly old, that must take some doing. Everything on my desk is USB C. Both keyboards, Logitech mouse, phone, dev kits / boards, both work and personal laptops (PD charging, personal only uses USB C). I’m getting used to the every cable is a double ended USB C life.
Readit News
> Standard USB has a minimum rated lifetime of 1,500 cycles of insertion and removal, the Mini-USB receptacle increased this to 5,000 cycles, and the newer Micro-USB and USB-C receptacles are both designed for a minimum rated lifetime of 10,000 cycles of insertion and removal. [1]
> To accomplish this, a locking device was added and the leaf-spring was moved from the jack to the plug, so that the most-stressed part is on the cable side of the connection. This change was made so that the connector on the less expensive cable would bear the most wear. [1]
I suspect that would make it the responsibility of the cable, not the receptacle, to give you that satisfying feedback. Which is good, because the cable is much cheaper and easier to replace than the receptacle.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB_hardware
Also, rated lifetime does not take into account things like tugging the cable to the side of your PC because your foot got tangled in it.
USB C is extremely fragile due to its size and not much can be done to help it.
USB C might be created to withstand more insertion cycles. After all it is meant to be used for devices like phones that are plugged in and out constantly. Part of this improvement is just more experience creating connectors (yes, connectors got much better in the past decades).
A cable connected to a back of PC is not being constantly plugged in and out. Nobody I know is plugging in their keyboard or mouse multiple times a day.
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When I design my boards, I put connectors that match the size of the board. I don't put extremely tiny connectors on a very large and massive project. I want a connector that isn't too fragile for the project and this means matching it with the forces that you can expect.
We, humans, use different forces when around large objects than when we are around small objects.
Large PC standing on your desk means forces used around it will be potentially larger than forces around a small appliance like a phone. If you tug on a cable that is hooked up to the phone, only small force is needed to move the phone. And we are usually more careful around a small appliance like phone. If you tug on a cable that is hooked up to a PC, much larger force will be needed before you move the PC. And people are less careful and using larger forces when doing things around a PC -- a larger object than a phone.
Have you ever seen a broken standard USB port or connector? Me not once in my entire life, unlike micro-USB or USB-C.
Not arguing that this isn't a good idea, but considering that the A port looks gigantic compared to C it seems those springs being a couple times larger also makes them a lot more durable, to the point where it's a non-issue.
The USB industrial complex made the same claims with micro-USB vs mini-USB; and are now doing it again with Type-C.
My empirical evidence: I've now had to replace two laptop motherboards due to a (mechanically) failed USB-C port.
Guess what I haven't had to do in 25 years? Replace a failed USB-A socket. Ever.
USB-C connectors are fragile and companies are making more and more large, heavy cables with huge connectors especially common with Thunderbolt or port replicator-type devices. It is a recipe for disaster and they expect us to fall for this USB Jedi Mind Trick again.
But then again, most people don't have the SMD rework tooling to be able to easily replace receptacles
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The idea that micro-USB and USB-C are supposed to be equally durable is the wrongest thing I've read all day. Frankly, mini-USB is the single most delicate connector I've ever used. Other than a couple PDAs, I never owned a single mini-USB device those receptacle didn't end up breaking off the board.
Nowadays I'm very careful when plugging in USB-C, doing my best to not pull on the cable, etc. It's overall a worse UX than with USB-A, and being reversible doesn't make up for it.
Then you have the mess of protocols and standards that use the connector, where I need to use specific cables for specific devices, and I'm never sure which one is which. The term "universal" in USB has completely lost its meaning.
Then you’ll need to only care about the wattage rating when charging devices. Seems like future for me.
I've taken to using Volta plugs for all my USB devices at the device side to prolong the life of their ports, and it's great for unifying micro USB, Lightning, and USB-C onto one cable. Highly recommend them!
That said I agree USB-C connectors on desktop motherboards are particularly poorly made, and indeed make an unsatisfying connection.
[^1]: https://jlcpcb.com/partdetail/ShouHan-10_0_4C6_3ZB/C6386909
[^2]: https://jlcpcb.com/partdetail/Dealon-USB_TYPE_C018/C2927038
I've asked for some "Cable Matters" ones to be bought as that's a brand I recognise and _think_ is good, we'll see!
Think the mushy feel is due to the io plate on the mobo
Broke my light macbook air from being so tightly connect it dropped, macbook also had very short charger cables for a while.
While being so tight it often refuse to charge because of it being so good in collecting dust and having a long neck that makes a small hit bend it so it doesn't work.
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why do I have to think of solutions so obvious?
Of course, no one wants a big connector in their cell phone, so we’ll have to make a mini C. And then a micro C. And then they’ll make USB D to try to simplify all of these competing standards.
That said the form factor of type C is a little too small to be wieldy to me.
[1]: https://tripplite.eaton.com/main/search?q=reversible%20usb%2...
I'd like a Framework style swappable USB charging port already.
Usb-c just fits.
Do you mean the real USB plug the bigger one? Those are dependent on my device. The USB a port on my desktop case are okay, the ones at the back of my Mainboard way to tight.
This doesn't make sense to me. Why should it be bigger?
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Everyone arguing against c like they wanna go back to old style serial port connectors or something.
> if someone exceeds the plug/unplug rating or the socket breaks for some other reason...it can just be repaired.
...when consumer tech companies these days tend to make repair much more difficult than it used to be.
the thing is, we could just have both! this isn’t some winner/loser scenario. the real question should be why these computers with enough bandwidth for 11+ connectors don’t at least split the difference with 6/5 of each. gives device manufacturers enough confidence that customers will be able to plug in the thing they bought, and gives consumers the ability to plug in anything and everything they need. then in 5 years when things have advanced we can start talking about entirely consolidating on USB C.
My Moonlander Mk1 does, it has C-to-C cable with an optional C-to-A adapter on one end. My mouse is type C, but it comes with C-to-A cable.
But, obviously, this is chicken-and-egg kind of a problem. No one will build a cheap mass market keyboard with a C-to-C cable for a market (desktop computer users) where type C connectors are nearly non-existent. Extra components (adapters or extra cables) won't be worth it. If the majority of desktops will shift to have majority of their ports of type C, you won't find a type A keyboard anymore. Just like you will have some difficulty finding a PS/2 keyboard today (sure they exist, but aren't exactly widespread anymore).
Not sure I'd rely on keyboards as the standard bearer for 'not a relic' many of them still support PS/2 via passive adapter. That was announced in 1987 and is older than me.
The issue of type C is that it's trying to accommodate the entire spectrum of applications from very high bandwidth to very low cost. The range of possibilities has much increased since when Universal Serial Bus was devised, thus many recent solutions feel like they're bad at everything and good at nothing. Perhaps we should allow the specialization of type A as a cheap, reliable, slow, high power, connector, and save type C for only when high throughput is needed?
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I built my own based on a USB 2.0 hub IC, but I never got around to publishing the design files. I should get on that!
Even building a single prototype unit cost me about the same as a single off-the-shelf type-C hub, but of course, building subsequent units would be substantially cheaper.
my current wireless mouse/wired keyboard have usb-c on the peripheral end but I still use usb-a to connect them to the computer
That said I do own lots of usb-a devices and will continue to own them for the foreseeable future. I would not purchase a laptop that was usb-c only today.
Calling established technologies "legacy" and "relic" despite them being widely adopted and used should be recognized as the manipulative intellectual dishonesty that it is.
When it comes to the entire ecosystem, a $5 bargain-bin noname OEM keyboard with permanently-attached cable is more representative - and those definitely don't come with USB-C yet. That would probably add a few cents to their BOM, so it simply isn't worth it yet.
But I'd think that the budget, off-the-shelf keyboards would be USB A.
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If this were 2008 you would definitely call a parallel port, a 56k modem, or a floppy drive a relic even though you probably used one in 1998.
https://www.pcgamer.com/youre-telling-me-we-could-have-had-r...
If a mouse or keyboard or thumb drive expects to be used by an apple computer, or a phone, usb-c is the right answer. If it wants to be plugged into a PC, usb-a is a better choice.
USB-C instead of any flavor of USB-B makes a ton of sense, and everyone should adopt that, but USB-C instead of USB-A is a little soon for PC oriented products, IMHO. Wait a few years, or ship with an adapter.
I can confirm, it's a journey. It's the same kind of journey than finding a hair trimmer that charges on USB C.
I see it more as makers being complacent and not giving a fuck though. There's no technical reasons for those to be USB A, and the USB C ones work great.
So yes USB A will be there for a while, and more often than not it's a symbolic middle finger to the buyer, a signal that a product should probably be avoided.
There's a good technical reason for keyboards and mice to still be USB A: adapters from USB A socket to USB C plug are allowed by the standard, but adapters from USB C socket to USB A plug are forbidden (because they would, together with a common USB C cable, allow creating the forbidden USB A to USB A cable). This means that USB A keyboards and mice can be used in both USB A ports and (with a simple passive adapter) USB C ports, while USB C keyboards and mice could be used only on USB C ports.
Therefore, until having enough free USB C ports in computers is common enough, using USB A ports (with an optional adapter to USB C on the box) on the keyboard or mouse makes sense. This is similar to how, during the transition from serial and PS/2 mice to USB mice, it was common for them to come with a adapter which allowed them to be used either on a USB port or (with the adapter) on a PS/2 port.
You have exceptionally strong opinions about USB A and C.
maybe it’s the opposite, it’s a warm hug reassuring you that they’re not going to change things just because some of the cool kids are.
Except that all of their plans already have USB A in them. They'd have to rework the plans. Then, rework the lines making them. Then they'd have 2 versions for a period of time. Someone in accounting and logistics would have to do more work.
Seems like a perfect time to bring that conversation to a halt with the "if it's not broke, don't fix it" line.
Many common power plugs were standardized 50-100 years ago. Compared to them, even USB-A is still new. If all you need is power delivery, there is little reason to switch to yet another plug type, which only exists because of unrelated requirements in other industries.
If a PC ships with mostly USB C ports. Well since the majority of accessories are A users are going to be frustrated when they need adapters/a hub to plug in anything because they don't have enough of the ports accessories actually use.
If accessories shift first then users are going to be frustrated when they need adapters or a hub to have enough ports to plug in their accessories.
Remember that the average user keeps a computer for 6 years and they keep accessories longer often throwing things out when they literally stop working or can't be made to work with their new device.
Furthermore even a slight increase in costs is problematic when you margins are fairly razor thing. It's a really hard sell for anyone to move forward.
Apple has a substantial advantage here wherein they have enough good will from their users, enough margin, and enough sway to simply upgrade and tell their users to buy adapters while neither losing profit nor users.
That being said being A is hardly a middle finger for the vast majority of devices which need neither more power/more speed than usb 3.2 2x1 can provide as we are talking about 10Gbps and 15W. The most common accessories are mouse,keyboard,sound,cameras,small storage, less commonly network adapters
We haven't yet found a compelling case for a beefy connection but surely there is right.
High end video capture, high end storage, displays, hubs that serve many fast devices, 10Gbps Ethernet.
None as common as the previously listed and not fun to get working when not every port supports high power, higher speed, or optional features nor every cord. Using such features feels like the plug and pray of the early 90s whereas plugging in a DisplayPort monitor or a standard stereo jack speaker system is as boring as plugging in a toaster.
Not the author, but all my Logitech keyboards have USB-C.
So let’s see . . . I have the following in my house, most are at least 2 years old and all are USB-C :
MacBook Air
MX3 mouse
Keychron keyboard
iPhone 15
iPad Air
Xbox controllers (several)
LG 4K monitor
Racer Headphones
Rode VideoMic Go II
Pebble V2 speakers
GoPro 11
Chromebook laptop
All my client devices have detachable cables. All my host devices are USB-C and have been for a while, except for a) Xbox, b) RPis, c) Car.
a) I rarely plug anything into it except a dedicated charging cable or the odd Xbox-specialized devices.
b) for which client devices (if any) are never unplugged
c) A cable is plugged in and never leaves the port
For general-use client devices I either swapped cables for USB-C to uUSB-A or USB-B or had USB-C OOTB for recent devices, increasingly so on both ends.
I also recently moved from an iPhone 7 to an iPhone 13 Mini. If it wasn't for Apple refusing to do an iPhone 15 Mini I'd be USB-C all around.
> I challenge the author to go find a wired keyboard or mouse that comes with a USB-C plug.
Accepted: I've had both for over a year: Keychron K2, Keychron M1. Logitech has a lot of devices with USB-C client side.
The irony is that one of them came with a USB-A (host side) to USB-C (client side) cable. The other one was C-C with a "upgrade your computer connector" C-A adapter†.
> Then in 5 years
Huh. I've been going all in on USB-C since 2018, my strategy being to pick the new standard through and through and backport/polyfill USB-C on the USB-A host side† as needed, NOT the other way around.
It's absolutely ridiculous that any off-the-self device today has anything else than a USB-C port client-side (which is where most of the mess actually is with all the mini x micro x hispeed x A x B x HDMI x DP connectors). I'm not throwing away any pre-C device or cable, I upgrade existing cables to be USB-C††. If a cable fails I get a C-whatever replacement.
As far as I'm concerned USB-A/B is a relic. Folks cling onto it like they clung to VGA (then, and now HDMI), floppy or optical drives.
† Upgrade the host port by leaving this permanently in the host device port: https://www.amazon.com/UGREEN-Adapter-Female-Converter-Charg...
†† Upgrade the cable by leaving this on the cable: https://www.amazon.com/UGREEN-Adapter-Thunderbolt-Compatible...
The real reason is bandwidth.
While I'm in favor of USB-C connector eventually replacing USB-A connector completely, I think it's best done gradually, with new devices still offering the occasional USB-A socket for quite some time. Remember how slowly PS/2 ports disappeared from PCs which also featured USB sockets next to them, or how PCI and PCIe coexisted for many years on PC motherboards.
Isn't this basically everyone?
I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen something that plugs into type C and it's not either a phone charger or a type A adapter.
I have literally tens of devices with usb A to usb B/mini/micro etc. cables, and only a few that have usb C, and even most of those came with a usb A -> usb C cable.
USB A is far from dead and should stay... I don't want to live in an "apple-like world", where you need an adapter for everything that should be included directly in the first place (lika an USB A port!!). And I already have to buy a serial (rs232) adapter, because they removed it for no real reason.
Ain't broke, don't fix it. They will fade away eventually.
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USB-C is an extraordinarily flexible connector and is super backwards-compatible. If you wanted to provide the exact same support as a USB A port, it's not any more complex. Just finer pitch to solder, but not any finer than anything else on the motherboard.
An A to C cable is also entirely passive. I think it's ok to rely on them. The future is now, time to move on. It's been 27 years.
If I found out (some of) the USB-C ports on my mb were limited to USB 2.0 speed and power I’d be quite pissed.
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When a USB-C port is out in space, rather than flat on a desk, C-to-A adapters create a lever arm that increases the risk of damage. Though this can be solved by using adapters with ~100mm of wire in the middle.
They’ve got a choice between doing nothing and having a few people complain, or doing a bunch of work and spending a bunch of money and still having people complain. One of those is a lot easier.
In other words, it costs more.
[1] https://richardg867.wordpress.com/2020/02/29/usb-c-done-chea...
On Macs, USBC ports are used for both Thunderbolt and various USB protocols.
I can't really think of why an average user would want one other than gaming, and PC gamers can likely figure out USB cables.
If you know of any controllers that implement the spec, I'm very interested in knowing part numbers! If for no other reason than as a historical curiosity.
Meanwhile USB C goes up to 240W. You're probably never going to get that directly out of a motherboard.
1. USB-C is more technically complicated, especially when you want to create a host, and especially when you want to do anything faster than USB 2 speeds. Fully-integrated chips for USB-C are still quite rare, so you have to hook up a handful of different not-exactly-cheap chips to add a USB-C port. On the other hand, USB-A is pretty trivial and can be added at basically zero cost.
2. There's still a wide USB-A ecosystem out there. Having to use adapters suuuucks, so people want to have at least some USB-A ports in their system. Moreover, a lot of more-trivial peripherals feature USB-C ports rather than pigtails, so you can easily connect them to USB-A ports with A-to-C cables.
The balance will slowly shift towards USB-C, but it's not exactly surprising that USB-A is still quite common.
However, they do indeed feel quite a lot more fragile. USB-A is an absolute tank, and I regularly just haphazardly plug it in without paying much attention to it, knowing that I'm not going to damage it. With USB-C I'm always a bit careful about not putting too much strain on the connector - especially as most connectors are rather long and act like a lever!
I can totally see myself breaking off USB-C ports because I forget to unplug the cable to my docking station. With USB-A, I pretty much expect to break the cable first.
It might seem that way, but the port supposedly breaks more easily than the cable in USB-A, since the A port contains springs (which will eventually get worn out and can be bent).
Anecdotally, I've seen tons of broken A ports with exactly that failure in airplanes, buses, and other places with public USB charging ports that people don't treat particularly nicely.
The leverage of C plugs does seem scary, but I have yet to encounter a broken port – fingers crossed!
Go look at phone charging cables which you might want to plug in to your laptop and see that C-C is more common than C-A now.
Still mad at Apple for removing USB-A. I understand adding USB-C. Why remove them??
Apple has been at it since the dawn of time.
I think it's great for travel, combined with an Anker 737 or similar battery and Anker 736 100W charger.