I fortunately have close friends, but not through any of my own doing. Over the years, there were a lot of friendly extroverts that encouraged me to hang out and join them for burger night, or they’d message me when they were in town. Everyone I dated took the initiative to ask me out, including my wife. I always feel awkward when I reach out to people, as though I’m bothering them somehow, so I tend to avoid doing so. Once someone is a close friend, I go out of my way to maintain the connection, but it’s that in-between stage of “acquaintance” where I have a hard time.
I had a bit of a revelation when I left my last job. There were very few comments from coworkers when I left. I don’t think I was disliked (hopefully?), but I don’t think anyone really considered me their friend either. Looking back I think I came across as somewhat of a NPC to coworkers. I preferred to eat lunch by myself and I only discussed the business topic at hand during meetings unless someone else brought up a personal discussion.
I wouldn’t mind to start more personal discussions, but I’m always concerned it might come across the wrong way, so the furthest I seem to get is “how was your weekend?”
Something that's hard for me to explain is that "making friends is so hard it's easy"
What I mean by that is, social anxiety is so high, population-level self-absorption is so high, people are so lonely... that for the most part if you just approach someone and behave as if you're friends... they'll go for it.
There's so much DEMAND for friends, that people will gobble up your supply if you offer it (so long as you're not a total monster)
> There's so much DEMAND for friends, that people will gobble up your supply if you offer it (so long as you're not a total monster)
This really doesn't ring true outside of school/university years. Back then, you are constantly meeting new people, and seeing them regularly in class and on campus. People that age don't have a "max occupancy" number when it comes to making friends. As an adult in the working world, the opposite is true.
Outside of that uni environment, a new person is going to have to knock your socks off with their personality, for you to even consider meeting up with them again. Most people cannot make a first impression that good.
Outside of school/uni, people are busy with daily life, and far less likely to chat with strangers. Friendship groups begin to quickly narrow around this time as well, as people get married, go to professional schooling of some kind, and start hanging out mostly with people that are very similar to them.
I don't disagree with your post, but this only works in communities where:
1. Trust hasn't been eroded (i.e. fraudsters/salesmen do not predominate)
2. There is an external stimuli towards making friends (i.e. socializing is being perceived as a good thing)
3. There is an internal stimuli towards making friends (i.e. disregarding #2 and all other personal needs met, one still feels the need to connect with others)
The fact that you've got the results you mention here shows that you live in a community with mentally healthy, although isolated, individuals. You'll find drastically different results in other parts of the world (third-world, for instance). Plenty of people wouldn't talk to you if they see no financial benefit in doing it (even a measly amount can have a profound effect). I used to make fun of this but it's not an easy thing to swallow and can get you quite depressed.
The "loneliness epidemic" is just a reflection of the eroded values and misplaced goals that are now commonplace around the world.
Making friends is not hard in the way that general relativity is hard, it's hard in the way that digging a trench is hard. You have to do a lot of grunt work for a very long time in order to see results. And there are no shortcuts, you have to do it all "by hand" or it doesn't work.
I found positive social interaction as a baseline really rings true - a smile and the nod type thing - post-lockdown in Texas. Great to practice manners again and laugh at mixing up direction of traffic in the grocery store. Bumbling around in a mask in a hurry was not pleasant, this is nicer so I behave the same!
> There's so much DEMAND for friends, that people will gobble up your supply if you offer it
This is true, but only if you're attractive and somewhat charismatic. I would say that means it doesn't apply to the majority of people (who are plain or ugly and not particularly charismatic or actively repulsive).
It's not only social anxiety that forbids people. It's also failed relationships that bruise your desire to try again. In my case I failed people enough time not to want to bother someone else :)
> I always feel awkward when I reach out to people, as though I’m bothering them somehow, so I tend to avoid doing so.
Sometime around 30 it hit me like a swinging log to my introverted face that the reason I felt that way was because that's how I felt when people reached out to me.
It really shook my perspective to realize that many people like having someone reaching out to them and they are not annoyed by it.
Math makes this part of the human condition. I honestly think that the solution for the shy (like you and I) is to value the relationships that these extroverts offer. At least a couple of the extroverts will think you're wonderful, and the other people that they will accidentally bring into your life through their gregariousness will cover the range from extreme introvert to extreme extrovert and everything in between. You will be meeting those introverts through a person who they trust, which is your best opportunity for successfully connecting with other shy people.
The only caveats are that you can't focus on one extrovert; get to know more than one, they're happy to talk. Focusing your explorations on one extrovert puts too much burden on the extrovert, and they want to share their time with a lot of people. The second caveat is to not let the extrovert take advantage of you, because a lot of extroverts are con-men/sales-types.
edit: 97% of the good friends I have had in my adult life were the result of a single extrovert talking to me out of the blue in my high school cafeteria. Through her, I met my first real girlfriend, and met two of the members of the band I'd end up singing in and touring with in my 20s. Still friends 30 years later, so I guess she liked me.
If people are going out of their way to approach you (especially women), then it's probably down to you being attractive or at the very least above average.
Something happened within the last year, either to the general social environment around me or my own demeanor. I used to be able to go out and speak to people, have convos, people would even approach me.
This year has been much different though. When I go out no one wants to talk, except for straight lunatics. At the bar the other night the only guy who wanted to talk went on a tirade about “the Jews” and kept asking if I was a Jew. A couple years ago I could have had a nice conversation with someone who had just sat next to me.
It could also be that the OP possesses traits which are notable and desirable to the right people.
I've barely exchanged a few sentences with someone before and they immediately stick out to me; not because they are attractive physically, but I notice something about their character that is desirable or rare.
On the other hand, attractive women sometimes get harassed. If you are an attractive man, many people will just generally
automatically be nice but also respectful toward you. Then you could end up with a cheery disposition because from your point of view the world is just a friendly, respectful place, and people are even nicer to you (or you could turn into a spoiled jerk, there are lots of paths).
> had a bit of a revelation when I left my last job. There were very few comments from coworkers when I left
Can't remember who said this to me, but it stuck: nobody remembers congratulatory calls for a new job. But you never forget each person who reached out when you were fired or let go.
It's fun but ephemeral to celebrate. It hurts to share pain, but it’s rewarding. When I find people my gut wants to share burdens with, I listen: they became close friends.
> the furthest I seem to get is “how was your weekend?”
Not a social expert here, but that isn't a bad start! Sure, it's a bit small-talk-y, but it can open up more interesting conversation topics. Assuming the person you're talking to give you more than just "oh, it was fine", anyway.
You can also modify it to "did you do anything interesting over the weekend?" And then if they say something specific, you can follow up with deeper questions about what they tell you they did, and go from there.
I get that it's hard, though. I considered myself an "extroverted introvert" (and even an "introverted extrovert", on my more socially-energetic days), though pandemic isolation has weakened the extrovert part. I often feel like asking deeper follow-up questions is intrusive and somehow bothersome, but I think the first step is to just make yourself not care, and ask anyway. Listen to how the person responds, and you should be able to get an idea if they do want to talk more about it, or if they'd rather not. If not, you can slow down and disengage. But if they do, then that's a good sign to continue.
«[…] slang used by millenials to denote people who act as if they are being told by someone to act in a specific manner, although that may not be the case. Using this abbreviation, the commentator or the creator is poking fun at the other person for acting in a certain manner.»
Right word, wrong meaning. In the result you quoted, a person's intelligence is being compared to that of a NPC, implying that the person can't think for themselves and does whatever they're told like how NPCs in games act. The gp seems to imply a slightly different meaning, where a person is thought of as being not being a real person, and is only someone you go to for transactional work related stuff.
Origin predates computer RPG's. It's from tabletop role playing games, and stands for "non player characters".
NPCs are the characters that the Dungeon Master (DM) creates to guide and influence the story, but the player characters (PCs) are the focus of the story. It's collaborative storytelling about the PCs adventure. An NPC is, by definition, not the hero.
Another meaning that has started to become prevalent is the conspiracy theory that some people don't experience qualia and have no internal "souls", i.e. they don't actually exist they are just robots. See twitter every time someone points out that some people don't have an internal voice or can't see images in their mind. There will be a chorus of people who are genuinely horrified and claim that this means that the person is not a real human but actually a robot. It sounds dramatic and I think people might even downvote me for this comment, but I've seen it quite a lot and increasingly often
NPC has, for some, become a term to completely dehumanise, in an almost moral panic kind of way. In a way that's like "what if the people I know are actually NPCs?"
NPC as in someone who is unremarkable, is basic and the same as everyone else, hence the name a non-playable character (moreso referring to a background characater).
> I preferred to eat lunch by myself and I only discussed the business topic at hand during meetings unless someone else brought up a personal discussion.
Probably, they thought that you did not like them.
Very brief summary: a personal anecdote about forming good friends followed up by advice for how to have better conversions (vulnerability, curiosity) and how to meet more people who will become friends (meet people but filter out most of them, take initiative with following up), and lastly how to deepen friendships.
As someone who has a fair number of close friends, I think this is a good post with lots of solid advice. And it's written well! Personally I've been lucky to just naturally meet and form my best friends over time, but I definitely think taking initiative and following up are important to maintaining a close friendship.
A general point in this post I also like is that making and keeping close friends may require work and energy, rather than being something that life just throws your way. I intentionally try to periodically message friends, come out to places they live, just generally keep in touch; as one gets older people move about and it's harder to maintain your closest friendships, but it is possible!
Last comment: this is a very pragmatic and analytical post with a lot of discussions of things you can do, and not much discussion of how you should feel. I'd add this - just CARE. Appreciate the people in your life and let that appreciation guide you.
Great article, though it does give a sort of programmy-algorithmic answer to one of life's great questions. Not saying that's bad, just unexpected.
I was actually thinking about it today. Here's an awkward truth about friendships that everyone needs to get comfortable with: often one of you is more interested in the relationship than the other. You know what I mean. For instance, I was invited to a wedding a few weeks ago. It never occurred to me to write to this buddy in many years, I didn't invite him to my wedding, but he invited me to his. I had a great time, we caught up and had a good talk. The same has happened the other way round, I'm sure. People I like a lot and contact, but they don't contact me. Yet when we hang out, everyone has a good time.
If you act weird about these relationships, you lose them. You don't want to do that, because marginal relationships are maybe the most rewarding to maintain, IME. People doing different things to you in different places bring a lot more into your mix than the ones you see every day. There also tend to be many of these relationship-seeds, so your close friends will grow from some of them.
I think that’s any close relationship: the internets like to say if you don’t get 50/50 - hit the lawyer, but reality is it is never 50/50. You won’t be in any long term relationship if you don’t accept that.
Michelle Obama posted this recently (that I agree with very much)
‘’’
michelleobama
Verified
As an adult, I’ve lived in a number of places, but as far as I’m concerned, I’ve only ever had one real home. My home is my family. My home is Barack.
But here’s the thing—our marriage has never been perfectly 50-50. One of us is always needing more or giving more. We have to be willing to listen to each other, honestly and without defensiveness. Only then, can we evolve together.
Over the years, a lot of young people have asked me about marriage. And my response usually goes something like this: You have to prepare yourself for long stretches of discord and discomfort. You have to learn how to make real compromises in the way you’ve lived as an individual. Glamorizing a relationship while you’re dating will lead you straight to difficulty once you’re married. You can’t paper over problems when you’re living with someone day in and day out.
So you’ve got to ask yourself: What are you trying to get out of this relationship? Have you truly thought it through? Do you want a wedding or do you want a lifelong partnership? Those are two very different things. Together, you are answering the question: Who are we and who do we want to be?
I want to take a step back and generalize a little here, because I think there are a huge number of hypothetical "ideals" we tell ourselves friendships (and families and relationships) are "supposed" to be, but in reality basically never are - and when we hold ourselves to these ridiculously high standards literally we just end up isolating.
For example I think a lot of people act like lying is a huge betrayal of trust, but white lies are more-or-less a social lubricant (even comfort-lies that might prevent the person from growing, like "Yeah it was him/her, not you.").
Another example is romantic idea that we're 100% into 1 person romantically and 0% into anybody else until the moment we break up.
"Traditions are solutions for which we have forgotten the problems" - I think this quote fits to so many more situations as I get older. Relationships (w/ friends and family) are easily strengthened by traditions.
Traditions are very algorithmic. Traditions sometimes force us to connect/meet people and resolve conflicts if you follow the "rules". Traditions can be hard to follow (as in overcoming some inertia or discomfort).
PS: Don't have to think of just cultural traditions. A gang of college friends can have their own silly but decades long traditions and inside-jokes.
It's a good point, but I would say it's not awkward, just expected unless exceptional circumstances (for example two single persons sharing a flat and having similar interests at that time). Like any relationships, friendships evolve with time, you might get close at some point but things change and you are not in touch much for the next few years, and then the situation changes again and you are back closer. Don't you think?
I see this happening especially when people get in and out of intimate relationships. I think it's just life...
I'm in my 40's and I have a lot of close friends, both in my city (mostly newer friends) and around the country/world (mostly older friendships).
My trick is, I cheat. I'm happily single, live alone and have no children. That gives me the luxury of doing the heavy lifting in my friendships. I travel a lot and most of those trips are to stay with friends in their homes or to meet them at a third destination. That's been the most effective way to stay very close to my friends, as well as to become close to their spouses and kids. I understand most people can't do this because of their own family obligations. But maybe it's something people with families could do just once or twice a year to visit people important to them?
Beyond that, I'm usually the one to start group chats or send memes on social media or schedule video chats. Sometimes it's a chore, but usually it's effortless for me. And the close friends I've maintained to this point are with people who are usually very eager and able to stay in touch on their end. The others have fell by the wayside over the years. And some I have consciously excluded from my life when I realized they were bad friends.
I'd also add that, as a man, I find that women make better friends then men, especially past our 20's, and I'd encourage all men to consider finding and building more non-romantic relationships with women.
> building more non-romantic relationships with women.
I completely agree; I've always preferred being friends with women, but in my opinion it's not easy to do.
Things sometimes get complicated quickly if there's attraction on either side which often happens to at least one side if you're close friends. Even without romantic feelings, things get weird/awkward if either party is in a relationship or married.
I wonder if we can learn something from homosexual people in this. I don't often see gay guys cutting off their straight friendships because they're one-sidedly attracted for example in the same way straight men swear off any woman.
Complicated doesn't even begin to cover it. I'm in this situation now and it's basically ruining my life. Or maybe it's ruined already, because I see no possible way out -- not even just ending the friendship.
Not only is the friendship very close, but inextricably linked with far and away my favorite activity in the world. One that has brought by far the most joy to my life, and one that I have given up a lot to pursue.
I don't even know how I could have predicted or avoided it, either. At first glance, I never would have guessed I would end up feeling any attraction to her at all. In actual fact, what I ended up with are feelings I could have never even imagined I was capable of feeling for someone (I'm 40).
The only thing I could have done differently, I'm afraid, would have been to make damn sure to never get so close to any woman at all.
I agree with a lot of this comment, but honestly having kids is just another connection point with other people - another reason to form a friendship.
A few months ago I organized a Dad's Drinks at a local bar. I walked there with a neighbor and realized that on every block there was at least one dad chilling in his house that wanted to come out. Having kids builds a habit to stay home, but isn't always a necessity - especially once the kids are 3 years old or older.
I'm old(er) mid-40's, single, no kids, and never married. I don't have much family or close friends. Hookup culture is de rigueur but it doesn't interest me. Where I'm at, there isn't a context to meet people and most random people in public around keep to themselves and treat me like I'm invisible. I do volunteering but that also doesn't go anywhere.
If you have to constantly take the social initiative, then you're carrying the relationship. Sometimes absence is better. Instead of dwelling on loneliness or self-pity, keeping productively busy seems a better alternative.
I'd like to have a family and kids, but an inability to find and make friends precludes that. The thought of getting old alone, having no one to check-in on me, no one to bury me, no one to care that I'm gone, and no one at a funeral seems depressing. I don't see how I won't end up in a "potter's field" somewhere.
It breaks my heart to see Western people living such lives. I love the West for so many reasons, but the social construction is a complete broken mess. Family and community is completely destroyed. People live and work only for themselves. The amount of loneliness and isolation is just mind blowing and unbearable. IMO, it's a selfish lifestyle. People who manage to make great success (due to a combination of lack, intelligence, hard work and sometimes just beauty) can live very good lives but the rest are doomed to live miserable, lonely lives and no gives a shit about them until they die. Very sad. I wish you happiness and fulfillment (whatever they are for you).
What are you contrasting the "West" with? As a person who lived most of his life in an Asian country with a very strong familial and social construct, I can say that there were no shortage of lonely, broken people there - we as a society just did a better job of hiding it. Perhaps the sense of failure and isolation may have slightly different causes, but that is not to say that Western society is somehow uniquely broken.
As someone who moved from SE Asia awhile ago, agree 100%:
- Parents can't wait to kick their kids out once they're college age
- A societal sense of embarressment if you're *still* living with your parents
- No night-time social options to speak of unless you want to drink/party (everything closes early - no midnight cafes or the like)
- Macho and bully culture all the way through high school leading to polar extremes in kids' social circles
- Everything has been financialized. There is no community to help out with _anything_. You have to pay for _everything_
- Suburbia abound, both kids and parents can't walk anywhere – kids are trapped in their homes and parents become defacto Uber drivers
- There's this weird sense of "keeping boundaries", making it hard to make friends with your neighbors etc
- Domestic help (eg live-in maids) are very expensive relative to cost-of-living and relative to some Asian countries, and kindof culturally taboo – parents are expected to parent completely on their own
Eh, I don't think family ties are "completely destroyed" in the West, we're just not as into our family as some "Eastern" cultures (I'm thinking of India in particular) can be.
Remember, a lot of the "West" (at least my exposure to it, the USA) is a conglomeration of other cultures; we have many Eastern cultures here as well!
Many of my friends have large families that they're much more entangled with than I'd opt into with my own family.
I could not live with my mother again, though I love her very much. I imagine many Indian men would love to have that option, all else being equal, though realistically they simply don't.
The freedom to choose is nice, but a great many of us "Westerners" choose to stay close to our families. That's what freedom is; the ability to opt into culture, rather than be forced into it.
Some people are too, too risk averse. They subconsciously avoid, not just pain, but the possibility of discomfort. It's not just one or two actions - it's their filter that they see the world through.
Pain avoidance is often disguised as disinterest, but really it's just a cost function to minimize the possibility of feeling embarrassment, awkwardness, discomfort, heated discussion, or emotional distress. Sometimes this is personality related; other times, this is a result of an aggressive, hurtful, or manipulative upbringing.
I have a friend like this and he is very hard to be friends with. He hit this point where he was stuck in an unhappy life situation (have few good friends, can't find love, etc) but vehemently opposed anything slightly uncomfortable that will move him from his unhappy cage.
What's happening subconsciously is a deep seated trauma/fear freezing him in place. For my friend, he was bullied as a kid, and his parents also were emotionally angry and abusive. He grew up with the fear that out of nowhere, a seemingly trivial sentence or action could send him into a world of confusion and hurt.
Today, meeting new people and sharing emotions is a giant minefield to him. But most people just see him as stubborn, whiny, hard to socialize with and doesn't listen to advice.
But it's hard to be his friend not because of his awkward socials but because he complains about his distress so much but doesn't do anything about it... for years. As someone who wants to solve problems and make progress, it is very frustrating to see him move so slowly.
He is very, very slow to go out from his comfort zone, even just a little bit.
You obviously care about your friend, but I do not think you really understand his position.
For some people company is "nice to have", something like owning a sports car. Maintaining friendship costs energy and has real risks (being used, emotional blackmail...). And benefits for short, obese, bald guy are really not that great.
:Not advice, but many questions and some sharing my experience:
Feel free to answer or not as you like.
> I'm old(er) mid-40's
I was in my early 40s when I found a lovely mate, married, and reproduced.
> Hookup culture is de rigueur
What makes you say that? What geographic region is that? Is that just the kids or those in your demographic?
> Where I'm at, there isn't a context to meet people
Are you in a place without personal ads?
> I do volunteering but that also doesn't go anywhere.
Is that volunteering at the same place or different ones? What kind of volunteering?
> I'd like to have a family and kids,
Do you want to make your own kids? Are you willing to be a step parent?
> but an inability to find and make friends precludes that.
That's not my experience. There's popular advice that one should marry one's friend. But in my experience one can just look for a marriage partner and leap frog that nonsense.
> The thought of getting old alone
Ah, so essentially human, thank you for sharing. I too have that at my core.
This line of thinking seems pretty prevalent but the way I see it, there's no such thing as carrying the relationship. If you're the one with the social need, the onus is on you to get that need filled. This generally means doing more work than others but it's not on behalf of them. It would be nice if other people filled our needs for us, but that's generally just wishful thinking.
Apologies if this is in the category of unsolicited advice. I noticed that you had a submission describing a similar problem set in the work setting, so I am seeing a theme. It sounds like you are in a lonely place and are hoping for something better.
There's no magic to it but I can recommend some things that work very well for me.
First, do you have a curiosity about people? The folks you're working with, or folks at your volunteering events - do you strike up a conversation? Do you know where people are from, what their families are like, what their hobbies are, what they think and worry about? I don't mean to encourage you to engage in robotic small talk, but asking you whether these things are actually of interest to you? Wanting to know someone is the first step of a relationship.
Assuming you have the interest, ask whether you've done anything to learn these things? If you realize that there are 30 people you could have known these things about but don't - why not? Are you very shy? Do you think people will think you're rude? Do you not know how to chat? Answer this for yourself and seek resources on-line for how to close those gaps. I went from a shy mush-mouth to a pretty good shmoozer in a few years, it's possible.
If you decide that you actually don't have an interest in people (like, you genuinely don't care what anyone's life is like) then there's a strong disconnect between than and the desire to have a family/kids/friendship. If you have the ability to, seek some sort of talk therapy to explore this question. Chances are there's some "wound" that's blocking your ability to want to connect with people if this is the case.
Finally, you sound like someone who closes doors before they are even open. I suspect when you say "hookup culture..." what you are really saying is "I have a reason for why I am not on dating apps." When you say "people treat me like I am invisible" - you are writing off an entire town as not being interested in you, which gives you an excuse to not try to connect with them (yet, somehow they had all met each other - so it's probably your vibes - and that's in your control to change). If you really believe that your location is a problem that's preventing you from having relationships, then move. If you have a desire for family and kids and you think that's not possible in your location, why are you there? (and, if you are about to give yourself an excuse as to why that's impossible, pay attention to that too)
Solid "unsolicited" (odd thing to say) advice here, especially in the third paragraph. Another description for this I think is simply being genuine. Being genuinely interested in other people's lives, their families, and the stuff they like to do goes a long way and will tear the layers off people. In my experience, learning this combined with listening will have you quite possibly wanting less friends.
> If you have to constantly take the social initiative, then you're carrying the relationship.
I don't think that's true, and the article does talk about this a bit. Relationships are never actually 50/50. If you're expecting that, you're gonna have a bad time.
But really, think about outcomes more than trivial details: if you are the one who always has to be the one to reach out, but you end up having a good time when you talk or meet up with the person, then isn't that still a good outcome?
But ultimately everyone gets to make their own choice, of course. Would you rather have no friends or family, or would you rather have to put in more effort than the other person at some aspects of maintaining a friendship/relationship? Ideally it shouldn't be this stark dichotomy, but if it is, you gotta make your choice.
(Also, "no unsolicited advice please" is a weird thing to say when you're posting about a personal situation on a public forum. If you don't want to take this as advice, then take this as disagreement with what you're saying, and my expression of frustration that your choice seems to be "be alone and sad" when the alternative is "put in a little more effort than the other person".)
Our neighbor is in his 70s. No kids, no wife, no family. Spends his time watching crypto videos on YouTube and gardening in summer. He is polite and helpful, but we try to avoid getting into conversations with him because those end up becoming monologues of him telling us about the apocalypse.
Living alone today is easy. It’s also comfortable, because you save yourself all the drama and overhead of having to deal with another irrational human being. It’s also easy to feel superior for living this way, telling yourself that you are rejecting a sick society. The thing is, with nobody knowing you intimately and giving you feedback, you can end up being totally delusional and not ever realize it.
I don't think that's generally true, especially if you're looking to date around your own age. Some in the age bracket may be averse to marriage, but not a relationship in general.
It's a great article, but is not the way that I have worked.
I'm a bit "spectrumish." I'd make a great hermit. I don't really find a need to have close relationships.
One thing that I've found in any relationship, is that a "power dynamic" changes things a lot. Most romantic or working relationships have a "power dynamic," where one party has some kind of leverage over the other, or that one party gets more from the the relationship, than the other.
This isn't necessarily bad (after all, we get married and have families all the time), but I feel that it adds a different "color" to the relationship.
Most of my closest (male) friends are ones that I don't have a "power dynamic" with. We usually have drastically different vocations, and don't really need each other. We generally have common interests (I suggest that volunteer work is a great thing), but find each other's company enriching and interesting.
// Most romantic or working relationships have a "power dynamic," where one party has some kind of leverage over the other,
This is a very weird way to think about it. Something I realized after I got married and bought a house and had kids, is that I love it and none of it would be possible without my wife. Likewise, she couldn't have any of this without me. We are partners.
If we wanted to look for power imbalances, we could find them. Like, we could obsess over who makes more money, or does more child care, or who had a greater impact on our selection of where we live etc, but that would be a very weird thing to put front and center. Much more importantly is that both of us are willing to put a lot into the relationship and consistently get even more out of it, enabling us to lead deeply meaningful lives together.
Got it in one. I’m pretty weird. I assume that my friends, acquaintances, and others, are also weird, as I read about that, in some book (can’t remember which one). It was one of those “Things that make you go ‘hmmm…’.” things.
But if it makes you feel better to call me “weird,” knock yourself out.
Making friends is easy, keeping friends and growing the relationships are difficult. I am mostly introverted but have periods of extreme extroversion. I'm 34 but all of my best friends have passed away from various accidents over the past decade.
I feel like a shell of my former self where all I do or have a desire to do is work. The only person I consider my friend is my former boss who, after losing his wife to ALS, I did everything I could to be there and support him because he took a chance on me by offering me a job that ultimately has led to a great career in the tech field.
I've noticed my personality has slipped away, I no longer have hobbies or anything of real passion in my life anymore and thus there's nothing I have to offer another person in a relationship.
It's incredibly lonely and a poor place to be yet I really don't know how to escape it. Most other dudes my age have families or many of them only care to go out to breweries which I don't enjoy.
There's still a bit of hope deep down that all isn't over yet and a ray of sunshine can still propagate itself somewhere, sometime.
> there's nothing I have to offer another person in a relationship.
I think that the most valuable (and appreciated) thing you have to offer are your atttentive ears and your time. That's what many people are looking for in a true, deep friendship.
The real frienship isn't about super-intresting hobbies or flashy personality but really basic things like listening each other, supporting i small or large difficulties etc.
Yup, exactly like the article mentions emotional support and debugging.
Listening with your whole attention and authentically sharing your experiences is a massive component of any strong friendship.
This is something I've only understood in the last year or two. It took me ~40 years to understand because I was very emotionally neglected as a child, so I never processed my emotions or helped others do the same. From my mid-teens through 35, I thought I didn't have the same emotions as other people.
First, let me say this sounds like the first stages of depression. It is VERY difficult to break out of yourself because by this point or a bit further; you start having trouble figuring out why you do anything, so you stop doing almost everything. Once you reach that point, it is very rare to be able to self-diagnose and get on a path to recovery.
This was me a few years ago. At some point, I stopped being authentic and sharing my experience with others (just saying what I was feeling, dis/liked, wanted/didn't want, etc).
There is likely an emotional block or a few in your past that you feel you shouldn't/can't/won't talk about to others (because it will bother them).
"Most other dudes my age have families or many of them only care to go out to breweries which I don't enjoy." <- this is a symptom of an emotional block.
You are saying No to yourself without considering options or asking people for ideas. There are an unlimited number of ways to adjust those situations to work.
This has been true in my personal life since I was about 13, but when it happened in my professional life too, I became very isolated and it wasn't until I read waaaay too much psychology that I started understanding that other people have had the same feelings (nothing I felt/feel is unique; what makes me unique is the combinations of those things) and then telling people bits of it, then more.
To continue that last two weeks ago I forced myself to cry for the first time since I was around 13. Then on Friday, I wanted to cry in the car during a sad song and I let myself. Then Sunday, I felt my sadness damn crumble and I was really sad about random things for a few hours.
It's a long process, but being able to feel sad again will let me WANT help from other people again and WANT to connect with them. It will let me feel lonely, which will motivate me to go find people to be around. Soon, this process will lead to more friends.
In many ways we've forgotten how to be human (as a culture) which actively prevents from connecting with other people in one way or another. I'm on an active journey to learn all the things I didn't learn as a child and I'm still pretty lonely, only one close friend, but I've already gotten past feeling empty inside and not interested in doing things.
Make two lists. One, an activities list. Every time you hear something fun to do, put it on the list. Eventually, after a couple years, you'll have nearly everything. If it's on the cheap side it's a good sign, although expensive things can be fun too.
The second list, is a content consumption list. Basically, building a twitter, but without the timeline. Write down categories you like, and people you like, and get a YouTube subscription so you don't have to have adds. After around 2 years, you should be rarely adding people & content to the list.
My advice: have a separate categories for movies to watch & tv shows to watch & only do so with friends & loved ones. Never watch tv or movies by yourself, would be my advice.
Sorry to hear that. Recommend you try an activity that involves physical activity and other people. Kayaking, capoeira, rock climbing, whatever feels interesting to you.
> I was trapped in a ‘normal’ mode of conversation - making small talk, being inoffensive, feeling aversion to being weird, respecting where I thought other people’s boundaries were.
If you want something else, you gotta let others know somehow! Everyone's life is different and has differently shaped spaces for relationships, interaction, etc. It's very common for people to be open to growing closer to some of their social circle, but be unsure about who to focus on. It can be you if you simply indicate you are also interested!
On the other hand, I think this is more wrong than right:
> A point I’ve made throughout is that this is a skill.
Calling "Growing closer" a skill suggests it is a craft that 'you should' practice - but it's not. Growing closer requires work and attention and you will get better at it over time - but to think of it as a skill "you are doing" instead of a mutual process that advances only at the shared pace you are getting into manipulation. "Growing closer" is measured by the combined 'distance' by which you and the other person have adjusted your lives to be closer to one another.
Maybe OP means that having deep and vulnerable conversations is a skill - and THAT I would agree with, but it has nothing to do with growing closer! You can have deep conversations with strangers (in fact it's often easier to have them with strangers).
People who discover the power of intimacy in our atomized world risk accidentally leading others to believe they want a deeper relationship than they have the capacity to maintain.
> to think of it as a skill "you are doing" instead of a mutual process that advances only at the shared pace you are getting into manipulation.
A mutual process needs some coordinated actions from both sides. If I'm unable to play my part, then there will be no mutual process. I believe I understand what you are trying to say, but it is the next stage of education on "how to make friends". When you have skill to make friends, then you can think of how to apply it mutually. If you have no such skill, then all your argument about manipulation just doesn't apply.
> If you want something else, you gotta let others know somehow!
There is a question of how to do it. I do not know, for example. Have no idea. Several times different people tried to make friends with me, I tried to be open for it, and it didn't work out.
I don't know if I quite said it before - but I don't think a relationship just "succeeds" or "fails." A good relationship occupies the "right" amount of space in each person's life for that pair of people and also is, for each person, part of a larger healthier whole. There are many variables in this balancing act and we are all getting it at least a little 'wrong' all of the time.
Generally, you can make any relationship closer by investing more time into it. But that means you risk getting stuck in trying to make a relationship fill a spot it won't ever fill. Often, that relationship will be "better" if you can accept less intimacy and hold it less tightly. There are people who can be extremely important to us, even if we can't take too much intimacy.
> Several times different people tried to make friends with me, I tried to be open for it, and it didn't work out.
Yah! Of course! This is always possible. Sometimes relationships just don't work for either person, despite everyone's best efforts. In those situations, the kindest thing we can do is gently invest less energy into the dynamic. Sometimes you can find an unexpected new relationship that's less than 'friendship' but still valuable and compelling. If you think about it like someone did something wrong, it's becomes more discouraging than it has to be.
I think the "this is a skill" just refers to the various things needed to form and maintain friendships (being good at conversations, taking social initiative, following up, etc.) More of a set of skills. And to be fair, my interpretation is that it is a set of skills both people in the process of friendship possess and need to practice to make things work (it is possible after all to be a bad friend or a bad partner due to your own lack of effort or skill with eg communication or vulnerability).
> * it is a set of skills both people in the process of friendship possess and need to practice to make things work*
I think this is another example of the idea I am trying to critique (and warn against). This suggests that "the process of friendship" is a singular, universal thing that will look the same for all of us (or for all of our friendships). Or that friendship "working" is a straightforward series of opportunities for both people to "say yes" to something. I think that is wrong.
Instead, I would say that over time a friendship is best understood as a series of opportunities to become more or less central to each other. Closeness and stability do not need to be linked! My oldest friend and I are extremely stable and comfortable with each other - but I would not say we are close. That we aren't close isn't a failure. It's a recognition that our lives have gone in different directions and that we most comfortably experience intimacy with other people. It's not a failure! Both our lives would be more frustrating if we relied on each other, with our divergent social worlds and approaches to life, for mutual understanding.
> it is possible after all to be a bad friend or a bad partner due to your own lack of effort
This is true, after a way, but I think it mis-orders things in a way that will lead to confusion. You are only a bad friend or partner if you don't make the effort that you agreed to make. If you are frustrated that you friend or partner isn't showing up in a way that you want them to show up in a way they have never said they will - you are the one who is doing "badly" in the relationship! Obviously, the reverse can also be true - people can promise things and not deliver, but the gap is between commitment and behavior. There is no bad or good level of energy to put into a relationship as long as you aren't deceptive about it.
Basically, you aren't a bad friend or partner because of 'your own lack of effort' - putting more effort into engaging a way your significant other doesn't want would make things worse. It's the lack of alignment that causes the problem and, until that alignment is corrected, you can't know if more effort is actually what the other person would like.
My take on it that the skill isn't the act of growing closer itself, but the actions you can take to elevate conversation above small talk and see if there could be greater compatibility there for a closer relationship. And that latter part is maybe a big part of the skill: I agree that just having a deep/vulnerable conversation isn't going to give you a close friendship, but I think that's a necessary step on the path. Determining whether or not -- from those deeper conversations -- whether or not a deeper friendship is going to develop is also a skill worth mastering.
(Maybe the author did actually mean what you thought, in which case I agree with you... and so I like my explanation better.)
Attention is such a good choice of word. Attention with memory is key.
I feel memory/remembering is the work, because we are constantly flooded with new things all day. Otherwise, once I am out of a conversation, I am into another app or meeting.
> accidentally leading others to believe they want a deeper relationship than they have the capacity to maintain.
Damn that's true. Though I think our instinct is to try to connect on a deeper level, and with just good intentions. We can be good friends with a lot of people. And be close to very few. That's ok, and better to be clear.
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I had a bit of a revelation when I left my last job. There were very few comments from coworkers when I left. I don’t think I was disliked (hopefully?), but I don’t think anyone really considered me their friend either. Looking back I think I came across as somewhat of a NPC to coworkers. I preferred to eat lunch by myself and I only discussed the business topic at hand during meetings unless someone else brought up a personal discussion.
I wouldn’t mind to start more personal discussions, but I’m always concerned it might come across the wrong way, so the furthest I seem to get is “how was your weekend?”
Something that's hard for me to explain is that "making friends is so hard it's easy"
What I mean by that is, social anxiety is so high, population-level self-absorption is so high, people are so lonely... that for the most part if you just approach someone and behave as if you're friends... they'll go for it.
There's so much DEMAND for friends, that people will gobble up your supply if you offer it (so long as you're not a total monster)
This really doesn't ring true outside of school/university years. Back then, you are constantly meeting new people, and seeing them regularly in class and on campus. People that age don't have a "max occupancy" number when it comes to making friends. As an adult in the working world, the opposite is true.
Outside of that uni environment, a new person is going to have to knock your socks off with their personality, for you to even consider meeting up with them again. Most people cannot make a first impression that good.
Outside of school/uni, people are busy with daily life, and far less likely to chat with strangers. Friendship groups begin to quickly narrow around this time as well, as people get married, go to professional schooling of some kind, and start hanging out mostly with people that are very similar to them.
1. Trust hasn't been eroded (i.e. fraudsters/salesmen do not predominate)
2. There is an external stimuli towards making friends (i.e. socializing is being perceived as a good thing)
3. There is an internal stimuli towards making friends (i.e. disregarding #2 and all other personal needs met, one still feels the need to connect with others)
The fact that you've got the results you mention here shows that you live in a community with mentally healthy, although isolated, individuals. You'll find drastically different results in other parts of the world (third-world, for instance). Plenty of people wouldn't talk to you if they see no financial benefit in doing it (even a measly amount can have a profound effect). I used to make fun of this but it's not an easy thing to swallow and can get you quite depressed.
The "loneliness epidemic" is just a reflection of the eroded values and misplaced goals that are now commonplace around the world.
This is true, but only if you're attractive and somewhat charismatic. I would say that means it doesn't apply to the majority of people (who are plain or ugly and not particularly charismatic or actively repulsive).
Sometime around 30 it hit me like a swinging log to my introverted face that the reason I felt that way was because that's how I felt when people reached out to me.
It really shook my perspective to realize that many people like having someone reaching out to them and they are not annoyed by it.
https://scribe.citizen4.eu/your-friends-have-more-friends-th...
Math makes this part of the human condition. I honestly think that the solution for the shy (like you and I) is to value the relationships that these extroverts offer. At least a couple of the extroverts will think you're wonderful, and the other people that they will accidentally bring into your life through their gregariousness will cover the range from extreme introvert to extreme extrovert and everything in between. You will be meeting those introverts through a person who they trust, which is your best opportunity for successfully connecting with other shy people.
The only caveats are that you can't focus on one extrovert; get to know more than one, they're happy to talk. Focusing your explorations on one extrovert puts too much burden on the extrovert, and they want to share their time with a lot of people. The second caveat is to not let the extrovert take advantage of you, because a lot of extroverts are con-men/sales-types.
edit: 97% of the good friends I have had in my adult life were the result of a single extrovert talking to me out of the blue in my high school cafeteria. Through her, I met my first real girlfriend, and met two of the members of the band I'd end up singing in and touring with in my 20s. Still friends 30 years later, so I guess she liked me.
This year has been much different though. When I go out no one wants to talk, except for straight lunatics. At the bar the other night the only guy who wanted to talk went on a tirade about “the Jews” and kept asking if I was a Jew. A couple years ago I could have had a nice conversation with someone who had just sat next to me.
It could also be that the OP possesses traits which are notable and desirable to the right people.
I've barely exchanged a few sentences with someone before and they immediately stick out to me; not because they are attractive physically, but I notice something about their character that is desirable or rare.
Can't remember who said this to me, but it stuck: nobody remembers congratulatory calls for a new job. But you never forget each person who reached out when you were fired or let go.
It's fun but ephemeral to celebrate. It hurts to share pain, but it’s rewarding. When I find people my gut wants to share burdens with, I listen: they became close friends.
Not a social expert here, but that isn't a bad start! Sure, it's a bit small-talk-y, but it can open up more interesting conversation topics. Assuming the person you're talking to give you more than just "oh, it was fine", anyway.
You can also modify it to "did you do anything interesting over the weekend?" And then if they say something specific, you can follow up with deeper questions about what they tell you they did, and go from there.
I get that it's hard, though. I considered myself an "extroverted introvert" (and even an "introverted extrovert", on my more socially-energetic days), though pandemic isolation has weakened the extrovert part. I often feel like asking deeper follow-up questions is intrusive and somehow bothersome, but I think the first step is to just make yourself not care, and ask anyway. Listen to how the person responds, and you should be able to get an idea if they do want to talk more about it, or if they'd rather not. If not, you can slow down and disengage. But if they do, then that's a good sign to continue.
One of the first search results reads:
«[…] slang used by millenials to denote people who act as if they are being told by someone to act in a specific manner, although that may not be the case. Using this abbreviation, the commentator or the creator is poking fun at the other person for acting in a certain manner.»
NPCs are the characters that the Dungeon Master (DM) creates to guide and influence the story, but the player characters (PCs) are the focus of the story. It's collaborative storytelling about the PCs adventure. An NPC is, by definition, not the hero.
NPC has, for some, become a term to completely dehumanise, in an almost moral panic kind of way. In a way that's like "what if the people I know are actually NPCs?"
-NPC Person
Probably, they thought that you did not like them.
As someone who has a fair number of close friends, I think this is a good post with lots of solid advice. And it's written well! Personally I've been lucky to just naturally meet and form my best friends over time, but I definitely think taking initiative and following up are important to maintaining a close friendship.
A general point in this post I also like is that making and keeping close friends may require work and energy, rather than being something that life just throws your way. I intentionally try to periodically message friends, come out to places they live, just generally keep in touch; as one gets older people move about and it's harder to maintain your closest friendships, but it is possible!
Last comment: this is a very pragmatic and analytical post with a lot of discussions of things you can do, and not much discussion of how you should feel. I'd add this - just CARE. Appreciate the people in your life and let that appreciation guide you.
I was actually thinking about it today. Here's an awkward truth about friendships that everyone needs to get comfortable with: often one of you is more interested in the relationship than the other. You know what I mean. For instance, I was invited to a wedding a few weeks ago. It never occurred to me to write to this buddy in many years, I didn't invite him to my wedding, but he invited me to his. I had a great time, we caught up and had a good talk. The same has happened the other way round, I'm sure. People I like a lot and contact, but they don't contact me. Yet when we hang out, everyone has a good time.
If you act weird about these relationships, you lose them. You don't want to do that, because marginal relationships are maybe the most rewarding to maintain, IME. People doing different things to you in different places bring a lot more into your mix than the ones you see every day. There also tend to be many of these relationship-seeds, so your close friends will grow from some of them.
Michelle Obama posted this recently (that I agree with very much)
‘’’
michelleobama
Verified
As an adult, I’ve lived in a number of places, but as far as I’m concerned, I’ve only ever had one real home. My home is my family. My home is Barack.
But here’s the thing—our marriage has never been perfectly 50-50. One of us is always needing more or giving more. We have to be willing to listen to each other, honestly and without defensiveness. Only then, can we evolve together.
Over the years, a lot of young people have asked me about marriage. And my response usually goes something like this: You have to prepare yourself for long stretches of discord and discomfort. You have to learn how to make real compromises in the way you’ve lived as an individual. Glamorizing a relationship while you’re dating will lead you straight to difficulty once you’re married. You can’t paper over problems when you’re living with someone day in and day out.
So you’ve got to ask yourself: What are you trying to get out of this relationship? Have you truly thought it through? Do you want a wedding or do you want a lifelong partnership? Those are two very different things. Together, you are answering the question: Who are we and who do we want to be?
‘’’
I want to take a step back and generalize a little here, because I think there are a huge number of hypothetical "ideals" we tell ourselves friendships (and families and relationships) are "supposed" to be, but in reality basically never are - and when we hold ourselves to these ridiculously high standards literally we just end up isolating.
For example I think a lot of people act like lying is a huge betrayal of trust, but white lies are more-or-less a social lubricant (even comfort-lies that might prevent the person from growing, like "Yeah it was him/her, not you.").
Another example is romantic idea that we're 100% into 1 person romantically and 0% into anybody else until the moment we break up.
Traditions are very algorithmic. Traditions sometimes force us to connect/meet people and resolve conflicts if you follow the "rules". Traditions can be hard to follow (as in overcoming some inertia or discomfort).
PS: Don't have to think of just cultural traditions. A gang of college friends can have their own silly but decades long traditions and inside-jokes.
I see this happening especially when people get in and out of intimate relationships. I think it's just life...
My trick is, I cheat. I'm happily single, live alone and have no children. That gives me the luxury of doing the heavy lifting in my friendships. I travel a lot and most of those trips are to stay with friends in their homes or to meet them at a third destination. That's been the most effective way to stay very close to my friends, as well as to become close to their spouses and kids. I understand most people can't do this because of their own family obligations. But maybe it's something people with families could do just once or twice a year to visit people important to them?
Beyond that, I'm usually the one to start group chats or send memes on social media or schedule video chats. Sometimes it's a chore, but usually it's effortless for me. And the close friends I've maintained to this point are with people who are usually very eager and able to stay in touch on their end. The others have fell by the wayside over the years. And some I have consciously excluded from my life when I realized they were bad friends.
I'd also add that, as a man, I find that women make better friends then men, especially past our 20's, and I'd encourage all men to consider finding and building more non-romantic relationships with women.
I completely agree; I've always preferred being friends with women, but in my opinion it's not easy to do.
Things sometimes get complicated quickly if there's attraction on either side which often happens to at least one side if you're close friends. Even without romantic feelings, things get weird/awkward if either party is in a relationship or married.
Not only is the friendship very close, but inextricably linked with far and away my favorite activity in the world. One that has brought by far the most joy to my life, and one that I have given up a lot to pursue.
I don't even know how I could have predicted or avoided it, either. At first glance, I never would have guessed I would end up feeling any attraction to her at all. In actual fact, what I ended up with are feelings I could have never even imagined I was capable of feeling for someone (I'm 40).
The only thing I could have done differently, I'm afraid, would have been to make damn sure to never get so close to any woman at all.
A few months ago I organized a Dad's Drinks at a local bar. I walked there with a neighbor and realized that on every block there was at least one dad chilling in his house that wanted to come out. Having kids builds a habit to stay home, but isn't always a necessity - especially once the kids are 3 years old or older.
I'm old(er) mid-40's, single, no kids, and never married. I don't have much family or close friends. Hookup culture is de rigueur but it doesn't interest me. Where I'm at, there isn't a context to meet people and most random people in public around keep to themselves and treat me like I'm invisible. I do volunteering but that also doesn't go anywhere.
If you have to constantly take the social initiative, then you're carrying the relationship. Sometimes absence is better. Instead of dwelling on loneliness or self-pity, keeping productively busy seems a better alternative.
I'd like to have a family and kids, but an inability to find and make friends precludes that. The thought of getting old alone, having no one to check-in on me, no one to bury me, no one to care that I'm gone, and no one at a funeral seems depressing. I don't see how I won't end up in a "potter's field" somewhere.
Remember, a lot of the "West" (at least my exposure to it, the USA) is a conglomeration of other cultures; we have many Eastern cultures here as well!
Many of my friends have large families that they're much more entangled with than I'd opt into with my own family.
I could not live with my mother again, though I love her very much. I imagine many Indian men would love to have that option, all else being equal, though realistically they simply don't.
The freedom to choose is nice, but a great many of us "Westerners" choose to stay close to our families. That's what freedom is; the ability to opt into culture, rather than be forced into it.
Pain avoidance is often disguised as disinterest, but really it's just a cost function to minimize the possibility of feeling embarrassment, awkwardness, discomfort, heated discussion, or emotional distress. Sometimes this is personality related; other times, this is a result of an aggressive, hurtful, or manipulative upbringing.
I have a friend like this and he is very hard to be friends with. He hit this point where he was stuck in an unhappy life situation (have few good friends, can't find love, etc) but vehemently opposed anything slightly uncomfortable that will move him from his unhappy cage.
What's happening subconsciously is a deep seated trauma/fear freezing him in place. For my friend, he was bullied as a kid, and his parents also were emotionally angry and abusive. He grew up with the fear that out of nowhere, a seemingly trivial sentence or action could send him into a world of confusion and hurt.
Today, meeting new people and sharing emotions is a giant minefield to him. But most people just see him as stubborn, whiny, hard to socialize with and doesn't listen to advice.
But it's hard to be his friend not because of his awkward socials but because he complains about his distress so much but doesn't do anything about it... for years. As someone who wants to solve problems and make progress, it is very frustrating to see him move so slowly.
He is very, very slow to go out from his comfort zone, even just a little bit.
For some people company is "nice to have", something like owning a sports car. Maintaining friendship costs energy and has real risks (being used, emotional blackmail...). And benefits for short, obese, bald guy are really not that great.
That's media bullshit that people really like to believe. There is no shortage of people looking for relationships.
The number of people willing to move out of their comfort zone to make a good relationship possible - of any type - is much smaller.
Dead Comment
Feel free to answer or not as you like.
> I'm old(er) mid-40's
I was in my early 40s when I found a lovely mate, married, and reproduced.
> Hookup culture is de rigueur
What makes you say that? What geographic region is that? Is that just the kids or those in your demographic?
> Where I'm at, there isn't a context to meet people
Are you in a place without personal ads?
> I do volunteering but that also doesn't go anywhere.
Is that volunteering at the same place or different ones? What kind of volunteering?
> I'd like to have a family and kids,
Do you want to make your own kids? Are you willing to be a step parent?
> but an inability to find and make friends precludes that.
That's not my experience. There's popular advice that one should marry one's friend. But in my experience one can just look for a marriage partner and leap frog that nonsense.
> The thought of getting old alone
Ah, so essentially human, thank you for sharing. I too have that at my core.
There's no magic to it but I can recommend some things that work very well for me.
First, do you have a curiosity about people? The folks you're working with, or folks at your volunteering events - do you strike up a conversation? Do you know where people are from, what their families are like, what their hobbies are, what they think and worry about? I don't mean to encourage you to engage in robotic small talk, but asking you whether these things are actually of interest to you? Wanting to know someone is the first step of a relationship.
Assuming you have the interest, ask whether you've done anything to learn these things? If you realize that there are 30 people you could have known these things about but don't - why not? Are you very shy? Do you think people will think you're rude? Do you not know how to chat? Answer this for yourself and seek resources on-line for how to close those gaps. I went from a shy mush-mouth to a pretty good shmoozer in a few years, it's possible.
If you decide that you actually don't have an interest in people (like, you genuinely don't care what anyone's life is like) then there's a strong disconnect between than and the desire to have a family/kids/friendship. If you have the ability to, seek some sort of talk therapy to explore this question. Chances are there's some "wound" that's blocking your ability to want to connect with people if this is the case.
Finally, you sound like someone who closes doors before they are even open. I suspect when you say "hookup culture..." what you are really saying is "I have a reason for why I am not on dating apps." When you say "people treat me like I am invisible" - you are writing off an entire town as not being interested in you, which gives you an excuse to not try to connect with them (yet, somehow they had all met each other - so it's probably your vibes - and that's in your control to change). If you really believe that your location is a problem that's preventing you from having relationships, then move. If you have a desire for family and kids and you think that's not possible in your location, why are you there? (and, if you are about to give yourself an excuse as to why that's impossible, pay attention to that too)
I don't think that's true, and the article does talk about this a bit. Relationships are never actually 50/50. If you're expecting that, you're gonna have a bad time.
But really, think about outcomes more than trivial details: if you are the one who always has to be the one to reach out, but you end up having a good time when you talk or meet up with the person, then isn't that still a good outcome?
But ultimately everyone gets to make their own choice, of course. Would you rather have no friends or family, or would you rather have to put in more effort than the other person at some aspects of maintaining a friendship/relationship? Ideally it shouldn't be this stark dichotomy, but if it is, you gotta make your choice.
(Also, "no unsolicited advice please" is a weird thing to say when you're posting about a personal situation on a public forum. If you don't want to take this as advice, then take this as disagreement with what you're saying, and my expression of frustration that your choice seems to be "be alone and sad" when the alternative is "put in a little more effort than the other person".)
Living alone today is easy. It’s also comfortable, because you save yourself all the drama and overhead of having to deal with another irrational human being. It’s also easy to feel superior for living this way, telling yourself that you are rejecting a sick society. The thing is, with nobody knowing you intimately and giving you feedback, you can end up being totally delusional and not ever realize it.
I don't think that's generally true, especially if you're looking to date around your own age. Some in the age bracket may be averse to marriage, but not a relationship in general.
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I'm a bit "spectrumish." I'd make a great hermit. I don't really find a need to have close relationships.
One thing that I've found in any relationship, is that a "power dynamic" changes things a lot. Most romantic or working relationships have a "power dynamic," where one party has some kind of leverage over the other, or that one party gets more from the the relationship, than the other.
This isn't necessarily bad (after all, we get married and have families all the time), but I feel that it adds a different "color" to the relationship.
Most of my closest (male) friends are ones that I don't have a "power dynamic" with. We usually have drastically different vocations, and don't really need each other. We generally have common interests (I suggest that volunteer work is a great thing), but find each other's company enriching and interesting.
This is a very weird way to think about it. Something I realized after I got married and bought a house and had kids, is that I love it and none of it would be possible without my wife. Likewise, she couldn't have any of this without me. We are partners.
If we wanted to look for power imbalances, we could find them. Like, we could obsess over who makes more money, or does more child care, or who had a greater impact on our selection of where we live etc, but that would be a very weird thing to put front and center. Much more importantly is that both of us are willing to put a lot into the relationship and consistently get even more out of it, enabling us to lead deeply meaningful lives together.
Got it in one. I’m pretty weird. I assume that my friends, acquaintances, and others, are also weird, as I read about that, in some book (can’t remember which one). It was one of those “Things that make you go ‘hmmm…’.” things.
But if it makes you feel better to call me “weird,” knock yourself out.
I feel like a shell of my former self where all I do or have a desire to do is work. The only person I consider my friend is my former boss who, after losing his wife to ALS, I did everything I could to be there and support him because he took a chance on me by offering me a job that ultimately has led to a great career in the tech field.
I've noticed my personality has slipped away, I no longer have hobbies or anything of real passion in my life anymore and thus there's nothing I have to offer another person in a relationship.
It's incredibly lonely and a poor place to be yet I really don't know how to escape it. Most other dudes my age have families or many of them only care to go out to breweries which I don't enjoy.
There's still a bit of hope deep down that all isn't over yet and a ray of sunshine can still propagate itself somewhere, sometime.
I think that the most valuable (and appreciated) thing you have to offer are your atttentive ears and your time. That's what many people are looking for in a true, deep friendship.
The real frienship isn't about super-intresting hobbies or flashy personality but really basic things like listening each other, supporting i small or large difficulties etc.
Listening with your whole attention and authentically sharing your experiences is a massive component of any strong friendship.
This is something I've only understood in the last year or two. It took me ~40 years to understand because I was very emotionally neglected as a child, so I never processed my emotions or helped others do the same. From my mid-teens through 35, I thought I didn't have the same emotions as other people.
This was me a few years ago. At some point, I stopped being authentic and sharing my experience with others (just saying what I was feeling, dis/liked, wanted/didn't want, etc).
There is likely an emotional block or a few in your past that you feel you shouldn't/can't/won't talk about to others (because it will bother them).
"Most other dudes my age have families or many of them only care to go out to breweries which I don't enjoy." <- this is a symptom of an emotional block.
You are saying No to yourself without considering options or asking people for ideas. There are an unlimited number of ways to adjust those situations to work.
This has been true in my personal life since I was about 13, but when it happened in my professional life too, I became very isolated and it wasn't until I read waaaay too much psychology that I started understanding that other people have had the same feelings (nothing I felt/feel is unique; what makes me unique is the combinations of those things) and then telling people bits of it, then more.
To continue that last two weeks ago I forced myself to cry for the first time since I was around 13. Then on Friday, I wanted to cry in the car during a sad song and I let myself. Then Sunday, I felt my sadness damn crumble and I was really sad about random things for a few hours.
It's a long process, but being able to feel sad again will let me WANT help from other people again and WANT to connect with them. It will let me feel lonely, which will motivate me to go find people to be around. Soon, this process will lead to more friends.
In many ways we've forgotten how to be human (as a culture) which actively prevents from connecting with other people in one way or another. I'm on an active journey to learn all the things I didn't learn as a child and I'm still pretty lonely, only one close friend, but I've already gotten past feeling empty inside and not interested in doing things.
The second list, is a content consumption list. Basically, building a twitter, but without the timeline. Write down categories you like, and people you like, and get a YouTube subscription so you don't have to have adds. After around 2 years, you should be rarely adding people & content to the list.
My advice: have a separate categories for movies to watch & tv shows to watch & only do so with friends & loved ones. Never watch tv or movies by yourself, would be my advice.
I understand loneliness. It can be a sad journey.
Nice try, Susan.
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> I was trapped in a ‘normal’ mode of conversation - making small talk, being inoffensive, feeling aversion to being weird, respecting where I thought other people’s boundaries were.
If you want something else, you gotta let others know somehow! Everyone's life is different and has differently shaped spaces for relationships, interaction, etc. It's very common for people to be open to growing closer to some of their social circle, but be unsure about who to focus on. It can be you if you simply indicate you are also interested!
On the other hand, I think this is more wrong than right:
> A point I’ve made throughout is that this is a skill.
Calling "Growing closer" a skill suggests it is a craft that 'you should' practice - but it's not. Growing closer requires work and attention and you will get better at it over time - but to think of it as a skill "you are doing" instead of a mutual process that advances only at the shared pace you are getting into manipulation. "Growing closer" is measured by the combined 'distance' by which you and the other person have adjusted your lives to be closer to one another.
Maybe OP means that having deep and vulnerable conversations is a skill - and THAT I would agree with, but it has nothing to do with growing closer! You can have deep conversations with strangers (in fact it's often easier to have them with strangers).
People who discover the power of intimacy in our atomized world risk accidentally leading others to believe they want a deeper relationship than they have the capacity to maintain.
A mutual process needs some coordinated actions from both sides. If I'm unable to play my part, then there will be no mutual process. I believe I understand what you are trying to say, but it is the next stage of education on "how to make friends". When you have skill to make friends, then you can think of how to apply it mutually. If you have no such skill, then all your argument about manipulation just doesn't apply.
> If you want something else, you gotta let others know somehow!
There is a question of how to do it. I do not know, for example. Have no idea. Several times different people tried to make friends with me, I tried to be open for it, and it didn't work out.
Generally, you can make any relationship closer by investing more time into it. But that means you risk getting stuck in trying to make a relationship fill a spot it won't ever fill. Often, that relationship will be "better" if you can accept less intimacy and hold it less tightly. There are people who can be extremely important to us, even if we can't take too much intimacy.
> Several times different people tried to make friends with me, I tried to be open for it, and it didn't work out.
Yah! Of course! This is always possible. Sometimes relationships just don't work for either person, despite everyone's best efforts. In those situations, the kindest thing we can do is gently invest less energy into the dynamic. Sometimes you can find an unexpected new relationship that's less than 'friendship' but still valuable and compelling. If you think about it like someone did something wrong, it's becomes more discouraging than it has to be.
I think this is another example of the idea I am trying to critique (and warn against). This suggests that "the process of friendship" is a singular, universal thing that will look the same for all of us (or for all of our friendships). Or that friendship "working" is a straightforward series of opportunities for both people to "say yes" to something. I think that is wrong.
Instead, I would say that over time a friendship is best understood as a series of opportunities to become more or less central to each other. Closeness and stability do not need to be linked! My oldest friend and I are extremely stable and comfortable with each other - but I would not say we are close. That we aren't close isn't a failure. It's a recognition that our lives have gone in different directions and that we most comfortably experience intimacy with other people. It's not a failure! Both our lives would be more frustrating if we relied on each other, with our divergent social worlds and approaches to life, for mutual understanding.
> it is possible after all to be a bad friend or a bad partner due to your own lack of effort
This is true, after a way, but I think it mis-orders things in a way that will lead to confusion. You are only a bad friend or partner if you don't make the effort that you agreed to make. If you are frustrated that you friend or partner isn't showing up in a way that you want them to show up in a way they have never said they will - you are the one who is doing "badly" in the relationship! Obviously, the reverse can also be true - people can promise things and not deliver, but the gap is between commitment and behavior. There is no bad or good level of energy to put into a relationship as long as you aren't deceptive about it.
Basically, you aren't a bad friend or partner because of 'your own lack of effort' - putting more effort into engaging a way your significant other doesn't want would make things worse. It's the lack of alignment that causes the problem and, until that alignment is corrected, you can't know if more effort is actually what the other person would like.
My take on it that the skill isn't the act of growing closer itself, but the actions you can take to elevate conversation above small talk and see if there could be greater compatibility there for a closer relationship. And that latter part is maybe a big part of the skill: I agree that just having a deep/vulnerable conversation isn't going to give you a close friendship, but I think that's a necessary step on the path. Determining whether or not -- from those deeper conversations -- whether or not a deeper friendship is going to develop is also a skill worth mastering.
(Maybe the author did actually mean what you thought, in which case I agree with you... and so I like my explanation better.)
Attention is such a good choice of word. Attention with memory is key. I feel memory/remembering is the work, because we are constantly flooded with new things all day. Otherwise, once I am out of a conversation, I am into another app or meeting.
> accidentally leading others to believe they want a deeper relationship than they have the capacity to maintain.
Damn that's true. Though I think our instinct is to try to connect on a deeper level, and with just good intentions. We can be good friends with a lot of people. And be close to very few. That's ok, and better to be clear.