There's a related blog post up on Medium by this same group (Working Washington) where they placed the same order, once with tip and once without, so people could directly compare.
From my perspective Instacart is stealing from its customers and workers by doing this. I'm a huge fan of instacart (my fiance and I use it regularly), but this is definitely going to push me away from the platform. At a minimum I'm going to be tipping in cash.
And while it is not as important an issue, I, as a tipper, feel that I have been defrauded when this happens (now that I am aware that this does happen, I assume that it has probably been done with some tips I have made.) To be clear: this is not an alternative way of looking at the issue, it is an additional indictment stemming from the practice.
I had a service industry job in texas that payed me around 2.50 an hour (iirc) and as long as I made enough in tips to cover minimum wage they didn't have to pay actual minimum wage.
It's immoral as fuck to steal tips. I don't care if it's legal. If I'm a customer tipping the person a certain amount I want to make sure it's actually helping that person and not just lining the pockets of their employer, that's absurd.
Many many places do that. I worked in PizzaHut in NJ, and they pay you less than minimum wage initially. Then you report your earnings, and if your tips + salary / hoursworked < minimum wage, then they will pay you the difference to match minimum wage.
So you have incentive to report 0.0 tips. But then our manager at PizzaHut let go everyone who reported 0.0 tips (when asked why, he said they called customers to confirm we did receive tips).
And that's not only PizzaHut, that's everyone doing that, at least in NJ.
It may be, Federal Law is more specific on tipping, allocation, role definitions in the restaurant industry, but not well expanded to define other industries. State law can further regulate . In spirit, a tip is an independant transaction between 2 parties and should be accounted as one. You must pay min rate for position (2.xx+?) and employee must make above fed/state min wage with tips once accounted, you must increase your compensation to make up a defecit between wage + tips vs min wage. You cannot pay below a certain wage regardless of tip amount, or maybe that's only in specified roles. I'm not sure.
It will not matter. Washington state law does not apply. The sovereign state of Washington laws are superseded and invalidated by mandatory binding arbitration. The rights set out in the State of Washington's constitution do not apply, for they are superceded and ignored by mandatory binding arbitration.
Do the right thing. Take a stand for human decency and make a compromise by closing your instacart account now. Absorb the inconvenience and do your own shopping. And make sure to tell instacart to (insert profanity of choice) if you can while closing your account. That behaviour is low down and dirty. Shady craigs list used car dealer level stuff.
I just walked three blocks in the rain to the local grocery store to pick up stuff to make dinner and food for tomorrow. Not like I was jumping for joy and made a dash for the door. I didn't want to, but I did. That's life.
Yep, exactly. I started using Instacart when it first came out. It was very convenient. But then I started to see more stories about how the company was changing the compensation structure. It got so bad that the delivery people were leaving flyers in the bags, made by that person, explaining how Instacart was basically screwing them.
You didn't explain why that's "the right thing". Making sure the worker is paid well is the most important part.
It's also possible that instacart will lose money on the sales where they can't scam tips; that means you can use the service and pay the worker well and punish instacart and increase the incentive for them to change their policy.
Good for you, but arbitrary moral judgements against everyone else never goes well. Walking miles to gather food and water is the reality for billions of people.
Using Instacart is a luxury in the first place, but having everyone close their account only hurts the very people you seem to be for. In case you missed it in the article, there is a workaround so that your tips are correctly considered, or you can always pay cash: http://www.workingwa.org/22cents
Same here. I’ve been using instacart since 3 years almost everyday. But this is it. I am off it. I can’t believe the greed that some companies go to, to take advantage of people struggling to make ends meet. Shame on them
Same. I just tried to cancel my membership but the link isn't working. I contacted customer service to get a working URL and I will report back here when I receive it.
OP mentions the tip 22c and then the rest in cash to show instacart they shouldn't be doing this. I think it's a fair approach to see if they can be persuaded to make the right call.
> Some of us have seen wages lowered by 30–40% overall.
I think this a danger of contracting for VC-backed "gig economy" services like Instacart and Uber. They often subsidize the cost of the service using funding (billions, in the case of Instacart and Uber) in order to quickly attract customers and workers, then reduce the subsidies once they are established.
It's not right, but at this point gig economy workers should expect it and plan accordingly.
I've used it a half dozen times. The quality of has gone way down. The first time was amazing with the shopper suggesting a combo that was not only better but cheaper. And it was delivered an hour and a half later.
Now it seems they skip items, replace it without asking and the earliest delivery is tomorrow. And the produce has a lot to be desired. It'll last two days and already looks crappy on delivery. I think they are in such a rush they just grab whatever.
The best thing for any app service, keep 20 in singles and just tip cash. I honestly don't know how the app tipping works but I have a feeling the full amount isn't going to the person.
I love how even knowing the company is stealing from their employees isn't enough to get you to drop using their service. I'm going to send at most 3 angry tweets about this before I forget about it and move on to the next thing to be upset about today.
There was a book [1] written about the myth that there are ethical consumers. Basically, no matter what people _say_ convenience, cost and other factors win out on the whole. I heard about the book in a recent Planet Money episode [2].
Tipping in cash seems like the best way to support the workers. Keep in mind the workers themselves are organizing this campaign- they want people to put a 22 cent tip (to show solidarity) and then tip in cash.
If that doesn't work then of course I'm going to drop their service. I just believe that supporting worker led actions is the best way to push change at this very moment.
While I agree that the parent comment should probably drop them. This comment won't get them to stop. Maybe something like proposing alternatives, and empathy. We don't know them so let's not generalize them into the crowd of 3 tweeters.
I use Uber from time to time. Knowing full well that they have some practices I admonish.
I use Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Safeway, etc. I try to be a better consumer with products but it doesn't always work.
I think we can approach this without the pitchforks and realize we all do this to some extent. The OP recognizes the problem and suggests they'll change their behavior. That's a win.
Parent - good luck moving off of the service. It's hard to swap something you've come to rely on out, and good on you for recognizing that as a consumer you need to make a change.
The problem is the company, not the commenter you're responding to. Is it really necessary for you to shame them when they expressed concern about this, just because they won't take as extreme an action as you want them to? They're expressing some honesty and self-awareness, and you're directing your outrage at them instead of Instacart.
Why don't you do something productive with your outrage, like changing your own lifestyle and keeping it to yourself? Or better yet, raise awareness without bullying someone else's attempt to process their frustration in an even-tempered way.
I'm not even going to send an angry tweet. I'm going to keep ordering. If a driver takes the job, at the price Instacart wants to pay, it's on the driver, of course. And this works until it doesn't! Once people quit driving for IC, THIS is the market price signal which will cause the system to reconfigure. If IC can't get drivers, they must pay more!
I have zero illusions that enough people understand the free market to be patient and allow for this to happen. We need to teach more economics in grade school.
> how even knowing the company is stealing from their employees isn't enough to get you to drop using their service
why should it be?
ahh whaaat? mashes downvote button
since you are still reading, what is the exact thought process here, can you articulate this? So the service works and still provides a convenience for you, but is this action being masqueraded as the most effective way to get the company to change a policy amongst all other possible actions? Is it just to not "support" a company that does a single thing you disagree with? Is it something else?
I think there are more effective ways of bringing Instacart into compliance with your ideals. Isn't that a possibility?
edit: and no responses by time of writing while on the way to getting downvote censored. Be interesting to see if it flips when a different crowd gets off of work.
It is important to be tipping in cash to begin with. Anyone doing unskilled labor and getting tips is not likely in a position to be able to afford the income tax on those tips. Always tip in cash.
Keep in mind that if they're not earning much, they're probably not paying any income tax at all, and until they're earning at least $38,700, the most they'll be taxed on their taxable income is 12%.
I don't think that supporting tax evasion should be a primary reason for tipping in cash.
But there are other reasons why tipping in cash is a good idea, such as making sure that the money actually goes to the worker, and knowing that they'll have immediate access to it, rather than having to wait until their next paycheck.
Breezing past your suggestion that workers should do some tax fraud, not reporting your tips also lowers your social security earnings which is going to lower your payouts as well.
> That's right: the customer's tip doesn't get added to the worker's check — it just gets deducted from what Instacart pays. In other words, up-front tips go to Instacart, not to the worker.
My understanding is that the Fair Labor Standards Act does not allow for employers to whithold tips.[0]
Gratuity/tip is a legally recognized concept. You can't just throw the word in your app and do what you want with the money it generates. There are legal expectations around how the money goes from the customer to the worker.
Instacart delivery workers are classified as independent contractors, which allows the company to flout basic labor laws. This is commonplace in digital age 'gig economy' jobs, but dates back to the early days of food delivery - e.g., most pizza delivery drivers are classified as independent contractors.
That having been said, the concept of defining contractor wages in relation to customer tips is new to me. I could see a legal argument being made in the employer's favor if the worker gave due consent to the transaction.
The idea here would be: Instacart states somewhere on the order prior to pickup 'if you choose to accept this order, you will receive $10, of which $.80 will come from us.' Since the delivery worker isn't running a 'shift' as an 'employee,' but just coincidentally happens to be running Instacart orders for 10 hours straight, this counts as one of many transactions that they've accepted and hence waived the legal right to complain about.
If this legal fiction sounds absurd to you, you're not alone.
I would agree, if the app didn't say "tip for delivery person" instead of "tip for instacart" or something maybe more ambiguous like "tip." Take a look at the screenshots of their app being discussed here: https://www.forbes.com/sites/bizcarson/2018/04/24/instacart-...
I think that may be the theory Instacart is using, but I suspect it hasn't been tested, and that they're doing this under the move fast, flout legal conventions until someone makes you stop startup strategy.
> You can't just throw the word in your app and do what you want with the money it generates.
That's simple fraud. It's like going door to door collecting money for a charity and then just pocketing the money. Potentially Instacart will need to refund those 'tips'
I'm very curious to find out what may be in instacart's TOS here. Because at face value, and without hyperbole, this does look like it could be fraud. It seems unlikely that their legal team was not aware of potential issues here.
The strange thing about this is that it may actually be fraud against the people buying from instacart. The ones giving the tip. I'm curious then what kind of damages a customer could sue for beyond the amount of the tip. And I'm also curious if instacarts TOS for customers forces arbitration and prevents class action lawsuits.
Yup, and Washington state specifically does not allow tip credits. Tips in WA are always on-top or hourly wage. (Which is why even a terrible bartender in Seattle can do pretty well.)
But as soon as someone 1099's you, you're out of luck. Found this out the hard way when I got 1099'd by a startup I was working for in 2017. The IRS has a mechanism on the Federal level to fix things enough to avoid the higher tax burden, but WA state explicitly requires a W2 from an employer for even the most basic of unemployment benefits (the determination letter from the IRS apparently doesn't count).
Also add on the fact that in Seattle the tipped minimum wage is 12/hr, where you only need to serve 20 dollars an hour worth of food in order to be making above minimum wage with tips should you also be busing your own tables.
My understanding is that wages from the restaurant are fixed and tips do not count towards them unless the employee does not hit minimum wage- at which point the restaurant has to pay them more. I have never heard of a restaurant paying an employee less because they got more tips.
But I have never worked in a restaurant so I could be completely wrong.
How many restaurants have $1.9B in funding and are valued at ~$8B? There's also an obfuscation on payment to workers that doesn't happen in a restaurant.
This is a distinction without a difference. There is no practical difference between paying less "because tip" and not paying the tip. The legal system is not staffed by robots, either. I don't see how they can defend a class action regardless of what words they've written on a TOS.
Also the increasingly common practice where a seller takes your money, wrongs you in the most blatant way, such as just not sending half of your order (Instacart), charges you for wasting your time and never providing any service (Uber) and when you complain, they keep your money and give you their Monopoly money instead.
I feel like for someone somewhere in the attorney general's office, prosecuting these should be someone's full time tax paid job.
I hope that one of the employers in the new “gig economy” gets taken to court over the contractor-versus-employee issue and that the case sets a sane precedent. An old joke (“western koan”?) comes to mind:
Suppose that we decide to call dogs cats. In that case, what is a domesticated canine? Answer: it’s a dog, whatever you choose to call it.
(Pretty sure I butchered that, but hopefully the point still came through.)
More evidence as to why tipping culture needs to die. Tipping fundamentally takes away the responsibility of paying someone for their work from the employer to the customer. In what other business context do I pay an employee of a company I deal with directly outside of the service industry where tipping is common? Wages are a cost of doing business. Pay the worker enough. If you want to still provide them an incentive to work hard, offer them incentive plans! Bring up your prices to reflect the true cost of your product or service. It's time to abolish tips.
Tipping is the "trickle down"-myth's small scale cousin.
It doesn't only take away responsibility of paying, but adds emotional and mental load cost to the customer. It's hilarious that people accept that in exchange for an illusory level of control (you being the mini manager/boss of your service task) over quality of service.
I think many people just haven't traveled to for e.g. many European countries where tipping culture is mostly non-existent because over there people the service industry receive appropriate wages and the prices of things are adjusted accordingly. The quality of service is good, and the people working seem much happier. They have a guaranteed income for their time.
I think it's easier to keep the tipping culture because everyone in the USA is already used to having extra random fees added to the sticker price of things.
In places where the tax and all other costs are already factored into the price, tipping is reserved for truly exceptional service.
There has been a no tipping movement in san francisco that has worked quite well. People don't tip anymore here and it is not socially accepted to do it.
As an SF resident I don't seem much evidence of this movement. I get prompted to tip very frequently for counter service, even at food trucks. People must be tipping if that's the case, although I don't watch other patrons.
I was in SF on a layover last October. Definitely tipped on our lunch and a beer downtown. But maybe that just outed us as foreigners. We didn’t get any odd treatment for it, either.
Too bad every restaurant in the US that has tried to eliminate tipping has failed. Servers end up with less money, patrons end up paying more than with tips, and many patrons actually like tipping.
Well it should start with you right? Are you willing to never tip again in your entire life? If so, let us know how it goes (or maybe is going?)
Or, alternatively, maybe you don't live in a country with a tipping culture. And if so, then tipping doesn't really affect you.
People like to tip. I like to tip. Waiters and waitresses like to be tipped. My wife used to work as a waitress and would clear over $300 a night in tips alone. It's only a small minority of people who are against it.
I can't down vote your snarky comment, but yes I'd be absolutely happy to stop tipping, if the country I lived in paid fair wages to the people working in the service industry. The idea of rewarding high performers can be similarly achieved with incentive plans and at least guarantees people working in the service industry the minimum wage allowable by law. So for now, I'm going to continue tipping the culturally appropriate amount to ensure my server gets a fair wage and I will also support any activist initiative to abolish tipping.
And that's why tipping won't die because the few people who can make bank off of sob stories and bad logic.
Sorry, waiting tables is not a really complicated skill. Tipping is not related to quality of service.
Most people don't think about tipping. They do it because it's expected and maybe the waitress is hot. If pressed, they would likely prefer not to do it.
Servers are also some of the most disingenuous people I've seen when arguing about tipping. Because that top tier knows they can make a lot of money in a low-skill job. They like to complain about how much money they make and how screwed over they are by tips, but when restaurants pay a fair wage and eliminate tips, the staff abandons them for places that do tip. Why? Money.
Waiters and waitresses HATE to NOT be tipped in a world where it's their livelihood. And studies have shown that this leads to racist, classist, and sexism within the service industry.
- Studies show that non-caucasians receive worse service because they are perceived as likely to tip less.
- Studies show that a high class restaurant server gets more in tips than a medium class restaurant, even when the food and service is of lower quality.
- Studies show that men often get tipped less than women for similar service.
I worked a tipped job for years and hated that aspect of it. It made my income more stressful and erratic than a normal wage. I can confirm what others have pointed out, that it also reinforces stereotypes.
Like any erratic and arbitrary system there will be some winners who make out well, but it's not a great way of compensating people for work.
> Are you willing to never tip again in your entire life?
I would happily do that if I knew the server would earn a living wage even without my tip.
No one is talking about making tipping illegal. Killing tipping culture means not making food workers dependent on customers' largess and generosity to make a living wage.
Even in most countries without a tipping culture, you're free to hand over additional money to your server or cook if you feel like it. No one is stopping you.
It's funny (to me, anyway) that this sort of things affects only America (and I guess Canada?)
This odd culture you have there of tipping and how it's so tightly integrated into your society.
As a non-American I had to read the article a few times to understand what the problem was - I thought this was just how tipping worked in the US.
I always read of service workers who only manage to "stay afloat" by the tips they earn, this seems to be almost the same thing, but reading it again I can see it isn't.
Here in NZ there is sometimes a "tip jar" at the counter of a cafe where you might throw in a coin or two (say $1 or $2) as a way of thanking the staff overall. High end restaurants will also offer a place for you to add a tip if you feel you got exceptional service, but there's also no hard feeling or death stares if you don't put anything there.
I hope tipping dies in the US and people get paid fairly regardless. But then you have bigger problems to solve first of all :)
The tipping system still baffles me (and I never know when I am supposed to tip or not .. )
From what I gathered, it comes from the prohibition as a way to supplement hotels and restaurants personnel wages (since they were making less in that context).
Why it persisted to nowadays and has been extended to many service works baffles me to no end.
Taxes are also added at checkout when you buy e.g. groceries, so it seems pretty cultural to have a very opaque 'what you pay' system.
We have also obfuscated what you make. Combined its very strange.
You could tell someone they get a new job paying $30/hour and you are selling them this house for $10/hour. After everything is said and done, those numbers could be the same... what?
Legally in America, employees who get tips instead of wages have the tips added onto a minimum of $2.13, which is three times more than these contractors were making. More than that, these contractors are from Washington state, which doesn't allow this exception - the minimum wage for everyone is $12/hour (except if you're an Instacart "employee," of course). Many other states also have higher minimum wages. Also, these Instacart workers were hired under a different pay system (wage + tips) and then this replaced it, while regular tipped employees at least knew it coming in.
Food prices have gone up since increase in minimum wage last year, and default tip option is 18% at majority of the places. Oh and that 18% counts the 13% tax, so you are tipping more than 18%.
These sorts of stories confirm my feelings about tipping that I’ve had all along: tipping is just a way to subsidize employers by pitting employees against customers and guilt-tripping the latter.
Follow-up update: Aren't all the gig economy start-ups (Uber/Uber Eats, Lyft, Caviar, Eat24/Yelp, Fiverr etc.) potentially doing the same thing? They are probably exploiting the same loop-hole in whatever set of laws. It might be just a UI update, but I remember seeing a message of the form "our drivers get 100% of their tips" in Uber Eats just yesterday, which is sort of like saying "we are following the law about tips".
Sorry, that's what I meant: an independent contractor getting 100% of their tips doesn't mean Uber/UberEats hasn't adjusted the amount they pay the contractor.
I was a huge user of Instacart 2 years ago when my nearest grocery store turned into one of the busiest Whole Foods in my city that I didn't enjoy dealing with.
The way they keep working to create opaqueness around their tipping to the point that last year Drivers were handing out pamphlets explaining how to remove the "Service Fee" (which nobody but Instacart gets) to tip the drivers was a huge red flag. Removing the service fee was on a 2nd page you had to go to and by default I believe was 10% of your order. If you've never used Instacart the groceries in my experience have been quite a bit more expensive than they'd be in stores so they're making revenue on that end already.
I started using them a bit again this year and now there's only a "Driver Tip" section with I believe a hard locked in service fee. Does the shopper get the tip as well? Is the driver the shopper as well now? In my situation the shopper is doing FAR more work than the driver. I want to tip the people well because I know Instacart doesn't pay well, but I don't want to give a $26 tip for $130 in groceries (which is usually 3-4 bags) going to the person who only spent 10 minutes in a car to drop my groceries off at my front door (and Instacart drivers never read the Delivery notes, I've had to walk out and walk them over to me each time last year that I ordered).
Is the tip split between the shopper and the driver? It only says "Driver Tip".
Everything just seems to be disgustingly opaque with this company and I really do not feel right even using it anymore so I've used it incredibly sparingly (maybe 3 times last year) as of late.
edit: I just checked, there's an info icon and it says 100% of the tip goes to the driver. So should I not tip based on the entire process of shopping and delivery? I don't even want to use this app anymore because I shouldn't have to stop and waste time considering these things.
This company just screams deceptive to me. Guess I'll be done with it.
100% of the tip goes to the driver yes. but, that statement is completely compatible with instacart changing how much they pay their driver for that delivery down to 80 cents. I hope this was a mistake on the part of instacart.
> I hope this was a mistake on the part of instacart.
According to the screenshot of Instacart's email, they confirmed this is accurate and was most definitely not a mistake. And according to the article, Instacart has doubled-down instead of apologizing.
Drivers also have wear, tear and usage of their car, which a shopper does not. Also, the shopper is much less likely to get in a deadly accident than a driver. Not saying shoppers don't deserve tips too. Just kinda laying out all the costs and risks of driving.
Wow. I'm cancelling my instacart account immediately. They've made so many mistakes in the past, but I liked their app. But this crosses the line by a mile. When I give someone a tip, it's not because I chose to pay more for an order just for fun, it's because I want the worker to get extra. They don't get to charge me a service fee, and ask me to tip, and then not give the worker my service fee. That's just crazy.
Instacart started out by secretly marking up groceries. Once that game was played out, it seems they started secretly marking down employee (oh sorry, contractor) wages
Frankly I can't fathom how this company is still in business. I live in the bay area and I don't know a single person who's ever used it or mentions it.
I've not really understood the point of grocery delivery other than in cities where car ownership is uncommon. And even there, you can rent a Zipcar once a quarter to stock up on bulky or heavy items (toiler paper, bags of rice or flour etc.) That's what I did when I was a car-less student. For other groceries, especially produce, I prefer to pick stuff out myself. And going to the store myself often exposes me to new products that I would not otherwise have learned about.
Well in Atlanta for example, it's either Instacart or Prime Now, and Prime Now from Whole Foods is about the worst grocery delivery service possible. Mostly because you maybe get half of what you ordered.
Readit News
From my perspective Instacart is stealing from its customers and workers by doing this. I'm a huge fan of instacart (my fiance and I use it regularly), but this is definitely going to push me away from the platform. At a minimum I'm going to be tipping in cash.
https://medium.com/@workingwa/instacart-heres-our-22-cents-n...
This is 100% wage theft.
It's immoral as fuck to steal tips. I don't care if it's legal. If I'm a customer tipping the person a certain amount I want to make sure it's actually helping that person and not just lining the pockets of their employer, that's absurd.
So you have incentive to report 0.0 tips. But then our manager at PizzaHut let go everyone who reported 0.0 tips (when asked why, he said they called customers to confirm we did receive tips).
And that's not only PizzaHut, that's everyone doing that, at least in NJ.
Any dispute will go to a monkey court instead.
It depends on the agreement between Instacart and delivery staff.
Do the right thing. Take a stand for human decency and make a compromise by closing your instacart account now. Absorb the inconvenience and do your own shopping. And make sure to tell instacart to (insert profanity of choice) if you can while closing your account. That behaviour is low down and dirty. Shady craigs list used car dealer level stuff.
I just walked three blocks in the rain to the local grocery store to pick up stuff to make dinner and food for tomorrow. Not like I was jumping for joy and made a dash for the door. I didn't want to, but I did. That's life.
I haven't used Instacart since then.
It's also possible that instacart will lose money on the sales where they can't scam tips; that means you can use the service and pay the worker well and punish instacart and increase the incentive for them to change their policy.
Using Instacart is a luxury in the first place, but having everyone close their account only hurts the very people you seem to be for. In case you missed it in the article, there is a workaround so that your tips are correctly considered, or you can always pay cash: http://www.workingwa.org/22cents
https://notipdoordash.com/
I've tipped a lot on Doordash. I feel ripped off.
My company regularly used Doordash for years and made a point of tipping on orders. Crazy.
I think this a danger of contracting for VC-backed "gig economy" services like Instacart and Uber. They often subsidize the cost of the service using funding (billions, in the case of Instacart and Uber) in order to quickly attract customers and workers, then reduce the subsidies once they are established.
It's not right, but at this point gig economy workers should expect it and plan accordingly.
Now it seems they skip items, replace it without asking and the earliest delivery is tomorrow. And the produce has a lot to be desired. It'll last two days and already looks crappy on delivery. I think they are in such a rush they just grab whatever.
The best thing for any app service, keep 20 in singles and just tip cash. I honestly don't know how the app tipping works but I have a feeling the full amount isn't going to the person.
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[1] https://www.cambridge.org/gb/academic/subjects/management/bu...
[2] https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/01/18/686665609/epis...
If that doesn't work then of course I'm going to drop their service. I just believe that supporting worker led actions is the best way to push change at this very moment.
I use Uber from time to time. Knowing full well that they have some practices I admonish. I use Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Safeway, etc. I try to be a better consumer with products but it doesn't always work.
I think we can approach this without the pitchforks and realize we all do this to some extent. The OP recognizes the problem and suggests they'll change their behavior. That's a win.
Parent - good luck moving off of the service. It's hard to swap something you've come to rely on out, and good on you for recognizing that as a consumer you need to make a change.
Seems like a not-bad approach.
Why don't you do something productive with your outrage, like changing your own lifestyle and keeping it to yourself? Or better yet, raise awareness without bullying someone else's attempt to process their frustration in an even-tempered way.
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I have zero illusions that enough people understand the free market to be patient and allow for this to happen. We need to teach more economics in grade school.
why should it be?
ahh whaaat? mashes downvote button
since you are still reading, what is the exact thought process here, can you articulate this? So the service works and still provides a convenience for you, but is this action being masqueraded as the most effective way to get the company to change a policy amongst all other possible actions? Is it just to not "support" a company that does a single thing you disagree with? Is it something else?
I think there are more effective ways of bringing Instacart into compliance with your ideals. Isn't that a possibility?
edit: and no responses by time of writing while on the way to getting downvote censored. Be interesting to see if it flips when a different crowd gets off of work.
I don't think that supporting tax evasion should be a primary reason for tipping in cash.
But there are other reasons why tipping in cash is a good idea, such as making sure that the money actually goes to the worker, and knowing that they'll have immediate access to it, rather than having to wait until their next paycheck.
My understanding is that the Fair Labor Standards Act does not allow for employers to whithold tips.[0]
Gratuity/tip is a legally recognized concept. You can't just throw the word in your app and do what you want with the money it generates. There are legal expectations around how the money goes from the customer to the worker.
[0] https://www.ramoslaw.com/is-your-employer-committing-wage-th...
[edit] Added "not"
That having been said, the concept of defining contractor wages in relation to customer tips is new to me. I could see a legal argument being made in the employer's favor if the worker gave due consent to the transaction.
The idea here would be: Instacart states somewhere on the order prior to pickup 'if you choose to accept this order, you will receive $10, of which $.80 will come from us.' Since the delivery worker isn't running a 'shift' as an 'employee,' but just coincidentally happens to be running Instacart orders for 10 hours straight, this counts as one of many transactions that they've accepted and hence waived the legal right to complain about.
If this legal fiction sounds absurd to you, you're not alone.
Only Instacart believes this.
That's simple fraud. It's like going door to door collecting money for a charity and then just pocketing the money. Potentially Instacart will need to refund those 'tips'
The strange thing about this is that it may actually be fraud against the people buying from instacart. The ones giving the tip. I'm curious then what kind of damages a customer could sue for beyond the amount of the tip. And I'm also curious if instacarts TOS for customers forces arbitration and prevents class action lawsuits.
This should be interesting to watch unfold.
I think this sentence says the opposite of what you intended it to.
But I have never worked in a restaurant so I could be completely wrong.
The problem is that they use the tip as an excuse to pay basically nothing. It's not acting like a real tip.
I feel like for someone somewhere in the attorney general's office, prosecuting these should be someone's full time tax paid job.
Suppose that we decide to call dogs cats. In that case, what is a domesticated canine? Answer: it’s a dog, whatever you choose to call it.
(Pretty sure I butchered that, but hopefully the point still came through.)
It doesn't only take away responsibility of paying, but adds emotional and mental load cost to the customer. It's hilarious that people accept that in exchange for an illusory level of control (you being the mini manager/boss of your service task) over quality of service.
In places where the tax and all other costs are already factored into the price, tipping is reserved for truly exceptional service.
Or, alternatively, maybe you don't live in a country with a tipping culture. And if so, then tipping doesn't really affect you.
People like to tip. I like to tip. Waiters and waitresses like to be tipped. My wife used to work as a waitress and would clear over $300 a night in tips alone. It's only a small minority of people who are against it.
Sorry, waiting tables is not a really complicated skill. Tipping is not related to quality of service.
Most people don't think about tipping. They do it because it's expected and maybe the waitress is hot. If pressed, they would likely prefer not to do it.
Servers are also some of the most disingenuous people I've seen when arguing about tipping. Because that top tier knows they can make a lot of money in a low-skill job. They like to complain about how much money they make and how screwed over they are by tips, but when restaurants pay a fair wage and eliminate tips, the staff abandons them for places that do tip. Why? Money.
Waiters and waitresses HATE to NOT be tipped in a world where it's their livelihood. And studies have shown that this leads to racist, classist, and sexism within the service industry.
- Studies show that non-caucasians receive worse service because they are perceived as likely to tip less.
- Studies show that a high class restaurant server gets more in tips than a medium class restaurant, even when the food and service is of lower quality.
- Studies show that men often get tipped less than women for similar service.
Like any erratic and arbitrary system there will be some winners who make out well, but it's not a great way of compensating people for work.
I would happily do that if I knew the server would earn a living wage even without my tip.
No one is talking about making tipping illegal. Killing tipping culture means not making food workers dependent on customers' largess and generosity to make a living wage.
Even in most countries without a tipping culture, you're free to hand over additional money to your server or cook if you feel like it. No one is stopping you.
As a non-American I had to read the article a few times to understand what the problem was - I thought this was just how tipping worked in the US.
I always read of service workers who only manage to "stay afloat" by the tips they earn, this seems to be almost the same thing, but reading it again I can see it isn't.
Here in NZ there is sometimes a "tip jar" at the counter of a cafe where you might throw in a coin or two (say $1 or $2) as a way of thanking the staff overall. High end restaurants will also offer a place for you to add a tip if you feel you got exceptional service, but there's also no hard feeling or death stares if you don't put anything there.
I hope tipping dies in the US and people get paid fairly regardless. But then you have bigger problems to solve first of all :)
The tipping system still baffles me (and I never know when I am supposed to tip or not .. )
From what I gathered, it comes from the prohibition as a way to supplement hotels and restaurants personnel wages (since they were making less in that context).
Why it persisted to nowadays and has been extended to many service works baffles me to no end.
Taxes are also added at checkout when you buy e.g. groceries, so it seems pretty cultural to have a very opaque 'what you pay' system.
You could tell someone they get a new job paying $30/hour and you are selling them this house for $10/hour. After everything is said and done, those numbers could be the same... what?
Expected tip amounts have also been going up, I assume now because companies/restaurants want to hide a price rise behind it.
Food prices have gone up since increase in minimum wage last year, and default tip option is 18% at majority of the places. Oh and that 18% counts the 13% tax, so you are tipping more than 18%.
These sorts of stories confirm my feelings about tipping that I’ve had all along: tipping is just a way to subsidize employers by pitting employees against customers and guilt-tripping the latter.
Follow-up update: Aren't all the gig economy start-ups (Uber/Uber Eats, Lyft, Caviar, Eat24/Yelp, Fiverr etc.) potentially doing the same thing? They are probably exploiting the same loop-hole in whatever set of laws. It might be just a UI update, but I remember seeing a message of the form "our drivers get 100% of their tips" in Uber Eats just yesterday, which is sort of like saying "we are following the law about tips".
The way they keep working to create opaqueness around their tipping to the point that last year Drivers were handing out pamphlets explaining how to remove the "Service Fee" (which nobody but Instacart gets) to tip the drivers was a huge red flag. Removing the service fee was on a 2nd page you had to go to and by default I believe was 10% of your order. If you've never used Instacart the groceries in my experience have been quite a bit more expensive than they'd be in stores so they're making revenue on that end already.
I started using them a bit again this year and now there's only a "Driver Tip" section with I believe a hard locked in service fee. Does the shopper get the tip as well? Is the driver the shopper as well now? In my situation the shopper is doing FAR more work than the driver. I want to tip the people well because I know Instacart doesn't pay well, but I don't want to give a $26 tip for $130 in groceries (which is usually 3-4 bags) going to the person who only spent 10 minutes in a car to drop my groceries off at my front door (and Instacart drivers never read the Delivery notes, I've had to walk out and walk them over to me each time last year that I ordered).
Is the tip split between the shopper and the driver? It only says "Driver Tip".
Everything just seems to be disgustingly opaque with this company and I really do not feel right even using it anymore so I've used it incredibly sparingly (maybe 3 times last year) as of late.
edit: I just checked, there's an info icon and it says 100% of the tip goes to the driver. So should I not tip based on the entire process of shopping and delivery? I don't even want to use this app anymore because I shouldn't have to stop and waste time considering these things.
This company just screams deceptive to me. Guess I'll be done with it.
According to the screenshot of Instacart's email, they confirmed this is accurate and was most definitely not a mistake. And according to the article, Instacart has doubled-down instead of apologizing.
Dead Comment
“We gave the driver 100% of the $10 from your tip, and withheld our $10 from their wages.”