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Posted by u/paulwilsonn 22 days ago
Ask HN: Have you ever regretted open-sourcing something?
Open source is usually seen as a win - for learning, visibility, and the community. But have you ever regretted it?

Maybe it became a burden to maintain, attracted the wrong users, or got used in ways you didn’t expect.

Would love to hear your experience - good or bad.

pentamassiv · 18 days ago
I am the maintainer of a library to simulate keyboard and mouse input. I didn't start the project but took over the maintenance and have since rewritten pretty much all of the code. I recently found out that Anthropic is shipping it in Claude Desktop for some unreleased feature which is probably like "Computer Use". I noticed they had an open position in exactly the team responsible for the implementation and applied. A few months later I received a rejection. The letter said that the team doesn't have the time to review any more candidates. The code is under MIT so everything is perfectly fine. It is great that a company like Anthropic is using my code, but it would have been nice to benefit from it. I wrote a slightly longer blog post about the topic here:

https://grell.dev/blog/ai_rejection

arjvik · 18 days ago
Did you apply through the website/job posting?

I’d strongly recommend trying again and reaching out to the friend of a friend who informed you of the role and asking for a more direct intro to the hiring manager. Unfortunately, it’s really really easy to slip through the cracks as a resume, and one feels no remorse rejecting a pdf file. Even without the warm contact, some way of directly reaching the hiring manager (notably: not the recruiters!) would mean that “I wrote that library!@ becomes front-and-center, not buried as a line item. I’ve seen so much more success with myself and the people I know in cold or warm outreach than through job application portals. In fact, I’ve yet to get a callback from a single job I’ve ever applied to online!

As an aside, does anyone know why the AI labs have such bad recruiters? I successfully got a job at one and am currently working there, but I still have many many complaints about the process.

bravesoul2 · 18 days ago
Anthropic has a tough alignment interview. Like I aced the coding screener but got rejected after a chat about values. I think they want intense people on the value/safety side as well as the chops.
pentamassiv · 18 days ago
Yes, I applied through the website. Unfortunately I don't know the people good enough to do that
crystal_revenge · 18 days ago
Don’t be naive, these companies don’t care about talent they care about prestige and credentials. <username>@standford will always beat “did actual work relevant to the project”.

Just look at the background of some of the names in this at these places. As always it’s “who you know and where you’ve been” not “what you know and what you’ve built”

edit: You can downvote if you like, but it doesn’t change the fact that high stakes tech has never been a meritocracy and AI companies are no different.

cube00 · 18 days ago
>As an aside, does anyone know why the AI labs have such bad recruiters?

They're using their own slop generator to handle recruitment.

siva7 · 18 days ago
I would rather assume your application didn't reach anyone in the team but got filtered out by some broken process below.
bravesoul2 · 18 days ago
Needs a GNU GPLJ license. You can use this for commercial purposes only if you offer the copyright holder a job.
bruce511 · 18 days ago
As it stands right now, if the code was under a GPL license, nothing stops them paying the author to get it under another license.[1]

Sure, they could offer a job as payment for said license, or just pay cash.

This approach would be "necessary" (for some definition of necessary) for GPL code, but isn't necessary for MIT code.

[1] this assumes there's 1 (or nearly 1) copyright owner. If there are multiple contributors, and no CUA in place, this approach is generally not possible.

Personally, and different people have strong feelings on this both ways, with GPL code I'd get contributors to sign a CUA. It keeps the door open for commercial opportunities like this, especially if the code is "mostly yours".

kevindamm · 18 days ago
I almost believed that was a thing, but I don't see any indication that it is. Not a bad idea IMO
zelphirkalt · 17 days ago
It is probably a bit late for that, as the company could simply use an earlier release, that was still under MIT license and develop it from there. They would have to maintain it of course, but if they are truly unwilling to hire, they might just do that. Nevertheless it would be a good move to move to a copyleft libre license.

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hosh · 18 days ago
Interesting, considering that Anthropic spends a lot of resourced to build ethics checks into their AI. I wonder if this hiring process was ever put through its own ethics check.
pentamassiv · 18 days ago
When you apply, you have to confirm that you did not generate the application with AI. As soon as you send of the application, you get an automatic email confirming your application. They also say they don't reach out, if you are not a good match and that they only contact the people they want to hire. Maybe they changed their mind on that policy, because I received a rejection letter a few months later. It was very well written. The people I showed it to said it is one of the nicest rejection letters they have seen.
DonsDiscountGas · 17 days ago
There's no ethical principle which requires them to hire somebody if they use OSS from that person. Maybe they missed out on a good hire, c'est la vie.
smashed · 18 days ago
Keep in mind that they probably use it or at least discovered it explicitly because it's open source. So either you don't release it and they use something else, or you release it and they use it. Option 2 sounds like giving you more exposure and more opportunities in the long run.
cperciva · 18 days ago
People die of exposure.
pentamassiv · 18 days ago
Sure, it would be hard to monetize and while it took countless hours to iron out many of its bugs, it is definitely not rocket science. I contribute to open source software expecting nothing in return because all software I use is also open source. It's my way of giving back and I love the knowledge that it is useful to people and hearing about their projects. So far I did not have any benefits from it but continue doing it anyways. It makes me happy to see more and more people using it.
ivanstepanovftw · 18 days ago
Zero opportunities as of now.
kunzhi · 18 days ago
[flagged]
moses-palmer · 17 days ago
How curious! So am I, and that is the project that I am the closest to regretting open sourcing.

I made the mistake of also implementing keyboard and mouse monitoring---you know, so I could write automated tests for the input parts!---and over the years it has turned into an endless source of feature requests, bug reports and also general questions about the Python programming language and its ecosystem.

Input events truly are horrible to provide a platform independent abstraction over, but in the end seeing people use it, make YouTube tutorials and discuss it on Stack Overflow make it worth the time spent.

533474 · 18 days ago
You should have licensed it under AGPL; Anthropic then would have reached you to negotiate a commercial license or contribute back to the project, since AGPL forces server-side code disclosures when deployed. Without that, they can legally use, modify, and profit from it without sharing improvements or compensating you
RMPR · 18 days ago
OP mentioned he took over an existing project. He would then have to track all the people who contributed in order to be able to relicense to AGPL. Even then, Anthropic would probably then write their own.
cbm-vic-20 · 17 days ago
[A]GPL is like kryptonite to corporations. Very few will take the risk of having to open their own code if someone made a mistake in isolating the GPLed code properly, so most ban the use of GPL for their products and services.

Anthropic would have found a different library or rolled their own, rather than taking that risk. If the library was fundamental, maybe they'd go for a commercial license, but that's usually an option of last resort.

kellpossible2 · 18 days ago
what's to stop them from <prompt>Recreate this library so that I can use it in my project without fear of copyright violation.</prompt> in their very own claude code?
jasonjmcghee · 18 days ago
Thank you for enigo / all you do and your support when I used the library in my little project!
pentamassiv · 18 days ago
You're welcome, it's nice to hear from people using it. I hope everything is going well with your new startup :-)
cnst · 17 days ago
> Through a friend of a friend, I found out that Anthropic had an open position in the team implementing the secret, unreleased feature of Claude Desktop using enigo. I wrote a cover letter and sent out my application. An automatic reply informed me that they might take some time to respond and that they only notify applicants if they made it to the next round. After a few weeks without an answer, I had assumed they chose other applicants.

Wait, so, if it was a friend-of-a-friend situation, why did you not try to get a referral?

I've stopped applying to the big companies long time ago precisely because I'd never hear back regardless of the match or the credentials (the only exception has been JaneStreet — they contacted me almost right away after a cold application), yet going the referral route, it's relatively easy to get an interview almost anywhere.

BobbyTables2 · 18 days ago
Perhaps you should highlight your work on this library as you apply to their competitors!

(Submit it as a dedicated story here too!)

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getflourish · 18 days ago
Hope this turns into a success story soon
latchkey · 18 days ago
You're expecting them to hire you because you wrote some code they happen to depend on?
latexr · 18 days ago
I’m unsure if you’re being serious or making a joke. If you depend on something, it is in your best interest to have it continue and remain in good shape. What better way to ensure that then to pay the salary of the creator and world’s utmost expert on the thing? As a bonus, it ensures your specific needs about the thing are addressed in a timely manner.
NewsaHackO · 17 days ago
It’s weirder because it doesn’t even seem like he initially wrote it, just took over a abandoned project, changed some code, and think he deserves a job because of it.
stn_za · 18 days ago
Uhm, yeah I would too

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erulabs · 18 days ago
When I was ~14 I open sourced a script to autoconfigure X11's xrandr. It was pretty lousy, had several bugs. I mentioned it on a KDE mailing list and a KDE core contributor told me it was embarrassing code and to kill myself. I took it pretty hard and didn't contribute to KDE or X11 ever again, probably took me about a year to build up the desire to code again.

Everything else I've open-sourced has gone pretty well, comparatively.

bruce511 · 18 days ago
This is of course a terrible reply to receive, I'm sorry you got that.

But I also find the psychology behind this sort of reply interesting, because there's lots of factors that lead to this sort of extreme.

Firstly, we don't know the age of the replier, but my guess would be someone also young, or at least immature. Telling people to kill themselves is not something adults typically do in any context.)

So it suggests another junior, desperate to prove their own standing, and needing to compete against others rather than collaborate. I've seen this kind of response in one adult (abusive to other forum members) but he clearly had quite severe mental health issues (and the user was banned.) In youngsters it is usually extinguished with firm moderator guidance.

With adult responders, frustration and tedium play a role. Personally I'm more generous with replies in the morning than the evening. At times I almost "fake" patience (when I'm getting impatient) with people who are simply not thinking, and who aren't listening.

Overall it is very imbalanced. The asker is asking 1 question. The replier may answer tens or hundreds in a day. So it's hard to answer each one as if it's original, as if it matters, as if you've not heard it a million times before (especially if it's right there in the FAQ.)

Part of answering well, and the quality of any forum, is in participants answering well, even if the question is trivial.

We all were newbies once. Asking stupid questions is how we grew from there. Answering stupid questions is how we pay it forward.

aaronbrethorst · 18 days ago
Meanwhile, here's Linus at the age of 42: https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/linus-to-opensuse-devs-ki...
eloisant · 18 days ago
You're talking about adults with severe mental health issues - I wouldn't be surprised if those are over-represented in open source contributors.
padjo · 17 days ago
> Telling people to kill themselves is not something adults typically do in any context.

It’s pretty typical of the alpha-nerd type who derives a ton of their self worth from superiority in some arcane area.

tryauuum · 17 days ago
I've recently told a person to kill themselves. Because I was very frustrated with the trend their product is going. For example, they rolled out a wysiwyg editor with the "lose all the text input" feature.

I'm writing such harsh words when I expect 0 improvement from the company but I hope at least to make the customer support person reconsider their life choices and quit the evil company

timClicks · 18 days ago
This reminds me of when I provided some impressions of Erlang as a newcomer to their mailing list.

One of my suggestions was that they include hash tables, rather than rely on records (linked lists with named key). Got flamed as ignorant, and I've never emailed that mailing list again. A while later, they ended up adding hash tables to the language.

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rideontime · 18 days ago
And people wonder why Codes of Conduct became popular...
astrange · 18 days ago
Having a long memory about this, the reason Lisp died out even though it was supposedly the best programming environment ever, is that Lisp programmers (called "Lisp weenies" at the time) were so unbelievably emotionally abusive that nobody believed them about it or wanted to interact with them. You couldn't ask them for help with anything without them calling you a moron who should kill yourself.

(The main example of these people was a guy named Erik Naggum, but a few still exist somewhere out there and I met one on a programming reddit yesterday. You can spot them because they won't stop telling you how great Lisp Machines are, can't explain why nobody uses them, and for some reason they insist on calling JavaScript "ECMAScript".)

That said, I also remember that codes of conduct were popularized about a decade ago by someone who was then fired from GitHub for harassing junior programmers (she claimed this was "mentoring" and seemed mentally incapable of noticing something could be wrong with her behavior.) So it seemed like an obvious case of reputation laundering at the time.

stn_za · 18 days ago
COCs never became popular though, business types enforced them and hackers fought against and lost
jchw · 18 days ago
So, I definitely believe this story 100%: when I was on the anglosphere Internet in 200x, there was a lot of elitism and hazing rituals of sorts, among other things. It was a very real and unfortunate thing that coincided the otherwise excellent experiences (IMO) of being online at that time.

Still, I really don't think most people need to be told not to tell other people to kill themselves, and in many places where I hung out when I was younger I strongly believe you would have been tempbanned for "flaming". I was a forum moderator and I can tell you I would not have hesitated.

But you said the magic words, so it bears addressing; I think we all get the picture that the Code of Conduct drama usually doesn't have much to do with the actual rules that are contained within, which really aren't that controversial on their face, but rather the way in which power is moved from stakeholders within a project to other people by virtue of initiatives like establishing Code of Conducts and the governance structures that enforce them. And, I think most people will probably not get upset over the idea that telling someone else to go kill themselves might get you suspended from a discussion forum... Rather, the drama comes in when you see the reach of a project or organization's CoC start to extend outward past what people actually want to stop (toxic, unproductive communication) and past the edges of the project (and into policing the rest of the Internet.) Two notable examples I'd cite are Python with Tim Peters (who as far as anyone can tell genuinely didn't do anything wrong) and Freedesktop.org with Vaxry (who can be a bit immature, but is primarily accused of not moderating the Hyprland Discord... Which is a fair complaint about the Hyprland Discord, but not a very good reason for him to be banned from Freedesktop.org.)

Of course, truthfully, there is no 100% winning answer here; if the stakeholders who have control over a project by virtue of being the original developers don't want to cede any control to people for CoC enforcement, they don't really have to (although in reality, external pressures to implement one might make it an untenable position to hold.) In that case, you have to rely on those people to hold themselves accountable to reasonable conduct, and nobody's perfect. It's kind of like when police departments conduct internal investigations and find no problems; even if you're pretty pro-police, you must feel somewhat skeptical that they actually were reasonably impartial in conducting said investigation.

But, I generally side with The Evil I Know, which is that the project authors and biggest stakeholders should generally maintain most of the power and control in an open source project including the ultimate decisions regarding moderation. In cases where developers have proven particularly egregious with their conduct, forking has proven to be effective enough as a mitigation strategy, and the fact that it comes at a cost is a sort of feature, as it's better if a power shift like that isn't easy; while I can't guarantee that the original authors and maintainers of a project will act reasonably and impartially, I can at least say that I expect them to have the project's best interests at heart, whereas the kinds of people that go around looking for established projects and organizations to join roles that have authority tend to not be the kinds of people you usually want in those roles. Having it be difficult means you need people who genuinely care about the project rather than the types of people who just kind of seek power. (And I am sorry, but there are fuckloads of those people among us and they are absolutely dirty enough to hide under the guise of anything to get a modicum of control. Running an online community for any appreciable amount of time opens your eyes to this IMO.)

All of this to say, it reflects poorly on the state of the Internet at the time and KDE's mailing lists that the situation happened and was possibly not rectified in a way that is satisfactory (it sure doesn't sound like it.) The correct thing to do is obviously to issue a ban, and you don't need a rule book of any kind to figure that out. I think when people push for these things during major incidents, it's misguided at best, because usually the core problem was not that a "don't tell people to kill each other" rule didn't exist, but that people actually would've needed such a rule to decide the behavior was unacceptable in the first place. This isn't some complex gray area case. I don't think people are acting in bad faith when they suggest it as an option after a drama incident, but I still think it's the wrong knee jerk 99% of the time.

(The most favorable thing I can say is that I think a CoC might possibly have value in very large projects like Linux or Kubernetes, but so far the execution has always felt like it leaves something to be desired. Seeing people occasionally openly threaten to contact the CoC committees over effectively technical disagreements leaves a bad taste in my mouth.)

account42 · 18 days ago
Because people blindly believe anecdotes without context are representative of anything?
singpolyma3 · 18 days ago
Your daily reminder that a code of conduct is only as valuable as the moderation team behind it.
collingreen · 18 days ago
I'm sorry that happened. That is monstrously bad behavior.

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grepfru_it · 18 days ago
Oh wow old war wounds from teenage days opened up.

My friend kept locking himself out of root and would be forced to single user the system to recover. This was difficult for many reasons, including remote hands costing up to and including $50 per call. I decided to look into why su would only work with root. Found a very simple check that I thought was unreasonable. Made my first patch and proudly posted to the FreeBSD mailing list thinking I was going to change the world. Man, instead I come back to everyone chewing me a new one, calling my friend too dumb to use FreeBSD, and other things that was not rooted in reality. I didn’t even try to defend my patch, I had spent so much time evangelizing FreeBSD up to that point that it really made me question my support of the project.

Anyway fast forward like 5 years, I was telling the story to coworkers when I decided to look up the su source. shocked-pikachu someone took my patch and applied it (without attribution). I have since moved on from FreeBSD entirely and my open sourced works have never been so negatively picked apart again ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

seabass-labrax · 18 days ago
You still hold the copyright to your patch, and the governance of FreeBSD is so much better now. I know a former FreeBSD core team member who I'm sure would love to see you get finally credit for your work :)

I'd be more than happy to put you in touch - email address in my profile if you're interested.

7bit · 18 days ago
I noticed something that looked like inconsistent behaviour with the arch installer, and I wanted to learn why it looked like that to me. I asked in the forums a bunch of questions to understand the process better, with the aim to improve the installation guide for everyone else after me.

I was told I should just ignore the error messages I was seeing. When I kept asking, some of the most active members started insulting and ridiculing me. Then others started joining in.

The only thing I had in mind was to improve the guide for other people new to arch, that came after me. Instead, I was only insulted and ridiculed. I uninstalled Arch and never did anything with it again. The toxicity of that community still makes me angry today.

Aachen · 18 days ago
Do I understand correctly that su is to switch user, and that your patch makes it work with the target user's credentials rather than necessarily root?

I was confused while reading because I nearly only ever use su to switch to the superuser account and obviously to get root permissions you should be root or else it's a security issue. Looking up what su does on FreeBSD, I was reminded that it can switch to any user. I've actually used that before. You made that? :o

iJohnDoe · 18 days ago
God that is the absolute worst. Those type of examples make my blood boil. Unfortunately, it happens all too often in life, especially in business.
RobRivera · 18 days ago
Just wow
rcakebread · 18 days ago
In the early days of the PERL Usenet group, I asked my first question and used the word "newbie" to describe my skill level. I got an automated reply scolding me for using the word "newbie".
inferiorhuman · 18 days ago
A bit of morbid curiosity has me wondering who that was. Back when I contributed some stuff to KDE I pulled a bunch of petulant kid shit (although what you described is not and was never my style). My recollection is that it was a pretty diverse and accepting group of freaks and geeks that would likely get shunned these days as the pendulum swings right… including a certain Tool aficionado that comments on HN occasionally.

Telling someone to kill themselves is wildly inappropriate and shouldn't have happened to you.

xlii · 18 days ago
Ehh.

When people reminisce about "the old internet" they tend to forget how hostile it was.

Being devils advocate it wasn't common for young people to engage in the activity but harsh and unfair critic was happening often.

It still exists today, but in much smaller scale than back then.

anitil · 18 days ago
Wow I would never have expected such poor behaviour, that's awful.

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abrookewood · 18 days ago
Dude, whoever wrote that to you was a piece of shit. Forget about them - almost guaranteed that someone who behaves like that has way bigger problems in their life & doesn't deserve your time or attention. You were a 14 y.o kid who produced something and took the time to release it. That takes dedication and guts. Well done.
jononor · 18 days ago
Sorry to hear that. Props to you for keep on going!
jraph · 18 days ago
I hope this person managed to change, or that KDE has managed to get rid of them. I expect KDE to be better than this.
stn_za · 18 days ago
Sigh, good old days
thrance · 17 days ago
When you could tell teens to kill thmeselves over nothing? That's what you're musing over? Get some help.

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giis · 18 days ago
To be honest, I do regret it. After 20 years of working on FOSS projects, I've invested enormous amounts of time, effort, and money into these and other free/open-source initiatives. It was enjoyable initially - there's something addictive about receiving praise from strangers and unknown communities. You keep going because it feels good and you develop a sense of moral superiority. But years later, when the people closest to you are no longer around - you pause and reflect on how much energy you devoted to random strangers instead of those who shared your life. If I had invested even 1% of the time and effort I put into FOSS projects into my relationships with loved ones, they would have been so much happier. Now I'm left wondering what the hell I was doing all those years https://giis.co.in/foss.html
poszlem · 18 days ago
This is a very thoughtful post, and I sympathize with the sentiment, but I don't think it's really about "open sourcing" anything. The same could be said if you spent that time building model trains, working on a car, or engaging in any other hobby.
ljchen · 17 days ago
Agreed. "Open sourcing" means you do it for free but your work benefits others. And you may have an opportunity to pass the torch to others. For hobbies you keep it to yourself. I played an instrument for many years in spare time. I enjoyed it a lot. I eventually gave up, because my life changed and many other things popped up. On reflection, I still think it was an intersting experince for all those years. But I don't feel anything for it now.
npteljes · 17 days ago
Yes, it's not different from a workaholic for example. So in this vein, not on topic, because it's not about the license. Still, it's a good lesson, and is technically an answer to "regretting open-sourcing something" - it's just that OP reconsidering open-sourcing their life, not their software.
npteljes · 17 days ago
>If I had invested even 1% of the time and effort I put into FOSS projects into my relationships with loved ones, they would have been so much happier.

This is a wise conclusion, that I think impacts many people. I know it does impact me. My personal way of going about it was that I was more invested into theoretical, ethical problems instead of my actual life problems that surrounded me. My tech life was vast and colorful, but my real life was barren.

friendly_chap · 17 days ago
I can imagine that happening when the motivation is external (praise). When I write open-source it's because I have to write it out of myself.

Do I expect praise, kudos, fame, whatever? I do and that happens, I have been hired countless of times because of open-source. Even my friends (!) have been hired because of open-source stuff I wrote and they contributed to.

But the main motivation is internal - I just have to see it take shape. Like a writer who can't resist painting or a writer who can't stop writing.

Do I have regrets still? Yeah because I could have used the time for better things. But that can be said about any hobby.

simpaticoder · 17 days ago
What you describe is an interesting moral hazard variation: you were disconnected from the positive effects you had on others. All may not be lost: what if you were to reach out to individuals who have enjoyed your work?
siva7 · 17 days ago
Thank you for this honest reflection. A good reminder to think about priorities.
doawoo · 18 days ago
Yup.

Long long (2016 ish) ago I released an Unreal Engine 4 plugin that let people embed chromium embedded framework views into the engine via textures, so you could make fancy HUDs or whatever.

Epic Games was kind enough to give me a developer grant for open sourcing and making it, cool as hell for a college student at the time, helped pay my classes.

The number of angry game devs who basically wanted me to solve all their problems for them for free was astounding, additionally another dev grant receiver was jealous that I got money close to their grant for “just making a crappy plugin”

(paraphrasing but that was essentially what happened)

No one is ever thankful lol.

socalgal2 · 18 days ago
I don't know how different it is for other types of dev but, AFAICT, plugin development for game engines (Unity, Unreal, Godot?) is one of the absolute worst things. The issue is that millions of new developers are using them to build a game. They have no experience. If they run into any bug at all, while using your plugin, even if it's totally unrelated to your plugin, they'll ask for free support.

Say you made a plugin that serializes/deserializes to JSON. They making an FPS and the gun doesn't shoot in the correct direction. They'll ask why it's not working in your support area, even though it's got nothing to do with your plugin.

duxup · 18 days ago
I always wonder about this. I use open source software but I'm never close / in proximity to the developers enough to say thanks.

The folks who are in proximity, folks with requests and complaints.

epolanski · 18 days ago
Hey! I used your plugin!!

It actually paid few bills in my case! Regards.

doawoo · 17 days ago
<3 Glad it was helpful!

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aurumque · 18 days ago
When I was a younger man, I fought long and hard and spent many late nights on the phone with the lawyers abroad, to convince my company to open source a tool that I was proud of and thought would help our brand and attract new developers. They finally granted approval, but I was not allowed to accept features or updates, customer service, spend time on fixes, accept pull requests, etc. Unfortunately my name was all over it, and I came to hate the fact that I had championed this, forced to watch the code rot and interest wane because the company couldn't fathom anything OSS besides lobbing some dead code over the wall periodically.

After I left I would still receive emails from frustrated users, but I had no access anymore. I could have forked it, but it just seemed too messy. I made some suggestions and wished them luck.

There is a lesson here, somewhere, but mainly it just convinced me to not rock the boat for the next decade, and to seek out smaller companies for employment.

mattmaroon · 18 days ago
I think we all have to learn the lesson, when we are young, that forcing people to do something they really don't want rarely ends up going well. You always hope they'll later have some epiphany that you were right, but they almost never really do what you want them to (you wanted them to support the open source project) and even if you were right, they'll rarely figure that out.
nurettin · 18 days ago
Given the energy, time and willingness I'd just develop it as an anon collaborator like yournamescrambled@email
Aurornis · 18 days ago
Not personally, but twice in my career I’ve been part of interview loops with people who had created semi-famous open source projects. Projects that you’ve heard of if you read a lot of HN, but not so critical that you couldn’t think of another alternative if it disappeared.

Both of them expressed regret for not commercializing it. The weird part for me, as the interviewer, was hearing them imagine how wealthy they’d be if they had commercialized it instead of releasing it as open source, entirely neglecting the fact that the projects became popular because they were open source.

I imagine this is the thought process behind the various projects that try to go closed-source and commercial after a certain point.

dangus · 18 days ago
The only way to escape wage slavery without being born wealthy is to be a business owner and have that business scale.

I can see why people have these fantasies. Huge businesses have been built on open source code bases.

Many of us spend our lives writing software that has lasting benefit for our employers but our reward is a flat hourly fee.

The place where I disagree with your take is that commercialization and open source popularity are not mutually exclusive at all. The FSF makes this quite clear: open source is 100% compatible with charging money for some kind of service or for the convenience of a binary or something like that.

Software freedom is really about availability of the source code and your right to modify and distribute your modifications, not free as in beer freedom.

Commercializing it doesn’t have to mean bleeding customers dry, it can be something where most people are not paying a dime and are enjoying a fully open source experience. I think nginx plus is a good example of that sort of model. I have never met anyone who pays for nginx but there’s some big companies with big company problems that do.

Another example is Discourse forums. You can pay for support and hosting.

eadmund · 17 days ago
> The only way to escape wage slavery without being born wealthy is to be a business owner and have that business scale.

‘Business owner’ in the sense of owning stock, sure.

Save 10–20% of your income. Invest it in index funds (we can argue about which particular indices). Work for a few decades. Retire wealthy.

Then bequeath that wealth to your heirs when you die, giving them a leg up on this whole process.

> Many of us spend our lives writing software that has lasting benefit for our employers but our reward is a flat hourly fee.

The employer takes the risk that the software will have no benefit at all. We get paid no matter what. I like that trade. I’ll invest in a diversified market index rather than my single program, thank you very much.

eru · 18 days ago
> The only way to escape wage slavery without being born wealthy is to be a business owner and have that business scale.

People working in finance or (in the year 2025) as AI researchers with fantastic signing bonuses for switching to Meta might want to disagree.

dennis_jeeves2 · 15 days ago
>The only way to escape wage slavery without being born wealthy is to be a business owner and have that business scale.

Another way: marry someone rich. Understandable that it did not occur to you or most people here, because most here are likely to be the XY chromosomal variety.

astrange · 18 days ago
> Many of us spend our lives writing software that has lasting benefit for our employers but our reward is a flat hourly fee.

There's plenty of companies that offer stock compensation. You may have to move to work for them, of course.

That said, the flat hourly fee may be a better deal. If you take a % of the profits, those profits may be negative!

senderista · 18 days ago
A project can't be monetized without getting wide adoption, and it can't get wide adoption without a permissive license that precludes monetization :(
astrange · 18 days ago
There's two models that solve this.

a) sell support contracts

b) have contributors sign copyright agreements, license the project as GPL/AGPL, and then sell commercial licenses for people who can't use that

Aurornis · 17 days ago
It’s the difference between a project and a business.

They made an open project and let the community contribute to it and adopt it.

They wished it was a business, not a project. A business has support, sales, and higher expectations than the serve-yourself open source projects

singpolyma3 · 17 days ago
If this were true no nonfree software would ever make money
ozim · 18 days ago
I get pretty angry by those type of people.

„Open source and free*” asterisk for „until I get traction or VC money”.

That’s bait and switch and riding on community good will.

cylemons · 18 days ago
The dev cannot remove the older opensource versions, so the community is always free to fork those
bravetraveler · 18 days ago
With enough social media, anything is possible

- Mullenweg, or some other hack

skinnymuch · 18 days ago
Society is bait and switch. You have to pay for rent and food/necessities or you’ll die/rot on the street while every politically illiterate person and the structures and institutions of society exclaim how amazing and freedom loving liberal democracy and capitalism is
ineedasername · 18 days ago
Possibly also their way if boasting, eg, "look this thing I did is so great I could be rich off of it!" When they may mean it much less in the way of regret than "hey, I do very valuable work, you should hire me"
acheong08 · 21 days ago
I regret open sourcing my reverse engineering of Obsidian Sync. I did it mostly for personal use but thought it might be useful for others. After a bit of cat and mouse, they fixed all the "vulnerabilities" that let you change the sync and publish endpoints and now I'm still stuck using a very outdated version. I recently found another way to get it working on IOS again but definitely not publishing it.
josephcsible · 21 days ago
Why do they consider it a "vulnerability" that you can change configuration of software running on your own computer? I've heard a lot of good things about Obsidian before, but hearing that basically burns it all up and means I'm going to strongly recommend nobody buy anything from them anymore.
dtkav · 21 days ago
Obsidian distributes their software for free, and makes money on a core plugin called Obsidian Sync (note that it is not open source). Obsidian Sync relies on their cloud to offer e2ee file sync.

Obsidian also has a rich plugin ecosystem with lots of open source plugins that are available and serve the same purpose (and you can use gdrive, dropbox, etc too).

It makes sense to me that they released a proprietary privacy and security focused plugin (that is their core business) and they don't want other plugins to be able to arbitrarily change the server that their plugin is pointed at.

Suppose they have a government customer who is using Obsidian Sync and the sync URL can be changed easily via configuration changes -- now the customer believes they are using Obsidian Sync, but actually their data is going somewhere else.

I don't think you would be surprised to find that e.g. a dropbox daemon has protections to make sure it is pointing at dropbox.com. Why would you expect Obsidian to be different?

(disclaimer: I work on a different plugin that adds file sync and collaboration features to Obsidian)

trod1234 · 18 days ago
They believe that through licensing ultimatums you can give that ownership right up, and oligopoly and government's have agreed.
al_borland · 21 days ago
I always just stick my Obsidian vault in iCloud and called it a day. No additional sync service required.
sshine · 18 days ago
This worked for me until iCloud started cache clearing all my files aggressively so my vault would take ten minutes to open on iPhone. Every few days.

When I tried to copy my vault off iCloud, the copy failed and two years of notes were permanently lost.

I’m never putting anything of value in iCloud again.

nkrisc · 18 days ago
This works very well, been doing it for years. Even works flawlessly for me on Windows using the iCloud client.
MSFT_Edging · 18 days ago
This gets complicated when you want your vault accessible across linux/windows/android/macos/ipad.

The ipad is the real stick in the mud and I don't want to deal with an icloud staging zone for everything else, or try to get icloud syncing on linux/android.

nickthegreek · 18 days ago
Can this work with a windows or nix system in the mix?
zaggle · 18 days ago
Why not create your own plugin? Or use Syncthing, Git, LiveSync, Remotely Save, etc...
acheong08 · 18 days ago
I wanted it to work on IOS. None of those were viable. In terms of why not my own plugin, that's just pure incompetence. I don't know TypeScript that well while getting the API done only took a few days. I tried working on a plugin later on for sync but found the docs difficult to follow. In the end, it wasn't worth the effort and I've gone back to just neovim and syncthing. For IOS, I'm sideloading my own app written with fyne (Go) but functionality is really basic.

Deleted Comment

jraph · 18 days ago
This sucks.

As a free software enthusiast, this screams "don't invest time in closed ecosystems".

greyface- · 18 days ago
I tried to open source a weekend personal project while at $BIGCO via their "Invention Assignment Review Committee". It turned into a minor bureaucratic nightmare and I was ultimately never given the OK to release it, or any clarity over whether my employer was choosing to assert an IP ownership interest in it. In retrospect, I wish I had never notified them of its existence, and released it under a pseudonym instead.
bitbasher · 18 days ago
Whenever I join a company I always create a bunch of made up names on my “prior inventions” list. When I open source something I just name it after something I put on my list if the description is close enough.
tharne · 18 days ago
That is insanely clever. Love it.
toss1 · 18 days ago
^^^^ Excellent idea and thinking ahead.

Great suggestion to make in advance placeholders to contain side projects.

neilv · 18 days ago
Do you think your colleagues have the same ideas of what is honest and trustworthy behavior?

In what ways do you trust, and not trust, your colleagues?

How do you feel about that?

lrvick · 18 days ago
In California you can just open source it and do not need permission as long as you did it on personal time on personal hardware without referencing proprietary IP.

Sure, a company could not like you doing that and find a reason to fire you, but they have no valid legal recourse and you may even be able to sue them for wrongful termination.

We are one of the only states that prevents employers from having ownership of your brain on personal time.

Corpos have tried to claim ownership of things I did in my personal time, multiple times. I just show them this law and they back down immediately.

Having rights to my own brain is a big reason I live in California, cost of living be damned.

https://california.public.law/codes/labor_code_section_2870

IANAL, but know your rights!

ryandrake · 18 days ago
There are two exceptions listed on 2870, the first one is going to be the gotcha. It excludes inventions that:

> (1)Relate at the time of conception or reduction to practice of the invention to the employer’s business, or actual or demonstrably anticipated research or development of the employer;

So, if you work at $BIGCO, they will argue that since they have their fingers in everything, that anything you might work on "relates" to their business or actual or demonstrably anticipated R&D. This is a truck-sized loophole.

kstrauser · 18 days ago
Note that this is also an enormous part of the reason why CA is a world tech hub. I hear other US states claiming they want to build a similar reputation. “So, you’ll pass laws giving employees ownership of their own personal projects they make on their own time?” “LOL, no!” “Alright, good luck Tupelo.”
ryandrake · 18 days ago
Whenever I see someone on HN talking about their moonlighting or side/hobby project, I get chills and think to myself "Boy, I hope they don't work for $BIGCO, because in all likelihood their existing employer claims IP ownership over that work, and if they ever try to do anything substantial with it, they're going to have corporate lawyers on their case."

I've had experience with a similar "committee" (probably same company) and I concluded the safest path is to just not do side projects while employed with BigTech.

BrandoElFollito · 18 days ago
This is insane. When I am out of work in France, I am out of work. Sure, I cannot write software that competes with my company but unrelated open source that does not being me income - yes.
socalgal2 · 18 days ago
Some companies are far more open than others. Google has tons of open source projects both through Google and via personal projects. Apple on the otherhand mostly forbids personal projects period, or so I've been told.
lrvick · 18 days ago
Or live in California where forced assignment of personal time IP is illegal.
mik3y · 18 days ago
Ugh, you gave me bad flashbacks of the same committee.

I tried to re-license a previously-released project (like from GPL to MIT or similar) and they wouldn't budge. I had written all the code.

In the end, I decided that them suing (or firing) me to assert their ownership of $VALUELESS_PROJECT, so they could then license it back, was ridiculously unlikely, said fuck it, and did it. And I was right.

em-bee · 18 days ago
the problem isn't your risk, the problem is the risk of the users of the project. if the code is owned by the company, your re-licensing isn't legal, and that could put other companies using it at risk.