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alecst · 3 years ago
A few comments on diamagnetism:

The most strongly diamagnetic materials that aren't a superconductor are bismuth and pyrolytic carbon, a graphite-like material.

Bismuth has a density of about 10g/cm^3, and a diamagnetic strength (X) of -16.6 x 10^-5. It won't levitate above a magnet because it's just too heavy.

Pyrolytic carbon has a density of 2g/cm^3, and a diamagnetic strength of -40 x 10^-5. Thin sheets of this lightweight material will levitate over strong magnets, provided the magnetic field alternates in a chessboard pattern.

LK-99 must be similar in density to bismuth, and the videos (like below) show large chunks of it levitating. If it's not a superconductor, it's the most diamagnetic room temperature material ever seen, by orders of magnitude.

And on top of that, if pure diamagnetism were at work, the samples would have to slide off the magnet. They wouldn't stay there and float. It's similarly unclear why the material seems to always float at an angle. It seems to track the field lines in some way.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/03/science/lk-99-superconduc...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamagnetism#Materials Diamagnetic strength = susceptibility

My background: physics, but not superconductors.

Plankaluel · 3 years ago
Yeah, I think unless the authors are deliberatly misleading the public (which is of course a possibility, though not very likely I think) it is hard to imagine a scenario where all of this won't turn out to be highly interesting in one way or another (even if it might turn out to not be a superconductor)
harles · 3 years ago
I really doubt there’s intentional fraud here, but they were forced to publish (or pre-print to be pedantic) early. [0] This certainly led to less rigor.

[0]: https://twitter.com/8teAPi/status/1684385895565365248 apologies for the Twitter link, I didn’t have time to find a better source.

bschne · 3 years ago
> It's similarly unclear why the material seems to always float at an angle. It seems to track the field lines in some way.

I've seen some people talking about the LK-99 samples only having these properties locally due to internal structure or something like that, could that not explain the angle if one part of the sample had more "pockets" of material with these properties than another part?

topper-123 · 3 years ago
> If it's not a superconductor, it's the most diamagnetic room temperature material ever seen, by orders of magnitude.

If it’s not a superconductor, can it still be used for e.g. maglev trains?

carabiner · 3 years ago
Do highly diagmagnetic materials have any practical use?
sdenton4 · 3 years ago
Frogs provide a wide array of ecosystem services.

https://youtu.be/KlJsVqc0ywM

kjkjadksj · 3 years ago
Frictionless travel
A_D_E_P_T · 3 years ago
LK-99 is a quasi two-dimensional material, and one which seems particularly challenging to synthesize in a bulk polycrystalline three-dimensional mass. Even the original researchers stated that they'd "get it right" only a fraction of the time, and that their famous floating cracked-disc is still impure.

I think that there's no reason to assume that negative results right now are conclusive, whereas positive results are strongly indicative.

samwillis · 3 years ago
> seems particularly challenging to synthesize

My reading of the situation was that they have been making this stuff for quite a while (years!), but haven't had the funding or manufacturing expertise to start scaling up and properly improving the process. They are a tiny research lab. The suggestion seems to be that one newer (now former) member of the lab just thought F-this we need to publish, get it out there and start moving forward.

If it is real, the level of investment in finding ways to make this stuff is going to explode. It may be hard to make, but that won't stop us from finding a way to make it on a large scale if it truly is revolutionary.

Further to that, from other groups studying it we will potentially find better and easer to make alternatives.

N-Krause · 3 years ago
Where did you get that "(years!)" from? Is it just a conclusion you came to or are those actual facts. If so, I would love to see a source or a direction to where to look for it.
jiggawatts · 3 years ago
> quite a while (years!)

Katalin Karikó was working on mRNA vaccine technology for decades on a relatively tiny budget, and was turned down by many larger groups based on the supposed impossibility of the concept.

You have to wonder how many future technologies are languishing right now in some basement lab where a couple of frustrated scientists are making do with a shoestring budget and are desperate to get their research published.

kergonath · 3 years ago
> LK-99 is a quasi two-dimensional material

There is nothing 2-dimensional about the Apatite structure, and the preprints I have seen do not show any kind of “quasi two-dimensional” structure. If anything, it’s more like an array of tubes and chains, more 1D than 2D. Do you have a source making this claim?

cubefox · 3 years ago
1D would arguably make it even more challenging to synthesize than 2D.
ThePhysicist · 3 years ago
It's a hexagonal lead-apatite crystal, how is that "quasi two-dimensional"?
A_D_E_P_T · 3 years ago
Even lead apatite is anisotropic. It conducts electrons along a plane from lead atom to lead atom --- where the phosporous atoms are insulators.

Superconductivity in LK-99 moves along a similarly anisotropic two-dimensional plane.

jstanley · 3 years ago
I don't know anything about lead-apatite crystals, but I know that hexagons are 2-dimensional.
marcosdumay · 3 years ago
I'd say that positive results are only strongly indicative if they contain some property that absolutely can not be explained any other way (like the full levitation of that badly sourced video that we can't be sure abut the veracity) or if they are numerous enough to rule out rare effects.

Outside of that, positive results only weakly imply LK-99 is real.

jona-f · 3 years ago
Doesnt LK-99 crystallize in the perovskite structure? That's very 3D. I think cuprate superconductors do too, but I'm guessing, cause it's a long time I was into that sort of thing. What do you mean by "quasi two-dimensional". Every crystal has 2d planes (apart from rare penrose-style quasicrystals) and many crystals are anisotropic. People don't call these "quasi two-dimensional" afaik.
Qwertious · 3 years ago
>LK-99 is a quasi two-dimensional material,

Hey, what does this actually mean? Like, space is 3D and I don't think you're claiming all LK99 samples are all literally-one-atom-thick, so clearly it's a 3D object.

I'd guess it means that the material has very regular layers, but (much like graphene) I've never actually seen someone directly say what "two-dimensional material" means 3-dimensionally.

DiscoBahb · 3 years ago
Think of it this way: in something like copper, atoms are arranged in a 3d lattice, and electrons are able to jump (or "tunnel") from copper atom to copper atom freely in any of the x, y or z directions because the lattice looks the same in each direction.

Some more complex materials do not have this symmetry, and the ability of the electrons to tunnel is much stronger in some directions than others. In many known high temperature superconductors electrons are more or less confined to move in a 2d plane (even though a lump of the material is obviously a 3d object) so they are called "quasi-2d".

In other materials they are confined to move in only one direction, which seems to be the case with LK-99

lost_tourist · 3 years ago
"...whereas positive results are strongly indicative..." [if the claims come from highly respected labs with experienced experimental scientists]
fguerraz · 3 years ago
I have my I WANT TO BELIEVE poster ready
duchenne · 3 years ago
I see many comments wondering why the original authors do not reveal their synthesis process.

The reason is simple. They work for a private company. Not a university. Not a public lab.

They do not reveal the process for the same reason than openAI does not reveal its process. It is because they are sitting on a quadrillion dollars opportunity and they want to grab it.

Similarly as OpenAI, many initiatives are trying to make an open source alternative so they have a risk of not profiting from their extraordinary invention.

sgt101 · 3 years ago
I understood that they have disclosed the process, and are actively advising some of the groups to support replication.

However, they acknowledge that the process is difficult to get right and claim that they have had to run it many times to get the results that they are claiming.

I don't have any clue about materials science, but I can imagine why this would be the case.

bhouston · 3 years ago
The lab has a patent though which a lows for disclosure while also profiting from it. Thus I am not totally convinced of your claims.
hungryforcodes · 3 years ago
Wait, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't patents only valid in the country they are filed in? So to be able to enforce a patent, you'd need to have filed in the US, Europe and China(?). Also patents take a couple of years to get accepted...
codethief · 3 years ago
AFAIU, the patent is limited to South Korea.

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codeulike · 3 years ago
But they did reveal their synthesis process, they just didn't explain it very well and there seems to be some random chance involved.
inglor_cz · 3 years ago
They revealed quite a lot, but the process seems to be unreliable and frankly unready for publishing.

If I understand correctly, one of their colleagues forced their hand by dumping the first preprint on Arxiv without consent of the rest of the team.

dagi3d · 3 years ago
If that'd be the case, why publish the paper at all? Just fill as many patents as possible (assuming this would be helpful) and send the technology
DougBTX · 3 years ago
Rumour is that the first paper was from a disgruntled ex employee.
SunghoYahng · 3 years ago
The publication of the paper on LK99 was an accident.
codethief · 3 years ago
> I see many comments wondering why the original authors do not reveal their synthesis process. The reason is simple.

Yes, but the reason is a different one: It's that they're busy writing / publishing a journal-grade paper and so they have postponed helping out other labs with reproduction efforts to the time after that. (Source: Hyun-Tak Kim said this in some interview.)

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dagi3d · 3 years ago
Then why to publish a paper at all?
misja111 · 3 years ago
Why is it necessary for other labs to produce the material themselves to verify the claims? The original authors claim they produced some superconductive material, can't they simply offer their samples to other labs to verify?
jasode · 3 years ago
>Why is it _necessary_ for other labs to produce the material themselves to _verify_ the claims?

I highlighted "necessary" and "verify" because your wording of your question somewhat hides the motivations of the labs.

Multiple labs around the world are not just doing a "homework assignment" to academically verify someone else's work. Instead, the tantalizing idea of a "room-temperature superconductor" would be a miracle material and That Scientific Leap In Progress is why independent labs are racing to reproduce it.

Same excitement of so-called "replication" would happen if somebody put out a plausible "cold fusion" paper or a workable synthesis of a new "drug molecule" to cure cancer. Multiple labs around the world would be motivated to implement their own cold fusion machine and cancer drug. It isn't "necessary" that they replicate it. Instead, they're genuinely excited about making their own miracle devices/drugs and possibly extending the scientific discoveries beyond the original authors' findings.

Roritharr · 3 years ago
> or a workable synthesis of a new "drug molecule" to cure cancer.

You mean like this? https://twitter.com/gigaj0ule/status/1686814611658715136

magimas · 3 years ago
To my knowledge the original authors promised they would send out samples in the future but want to wait till they have a finalized paper approved for publication. Whether that's reasonable or not is very hard to tell.

IF they are correct and they have an RT superconductor, then it's a highly political decision on who gets sent some samples. Like, all their former colleagues and collaborators will be pissed if they don't get any. But you also would want to send some samples to someone who you know has 1) all the necessary equipment to confirm your claim, 2) has the necessary publication history to make him/her a trustworthy expert on high temperature superconductivity that others would believe, 3) would not want to slow down your progress just so he/she can gain an advantage.

And with something with such huge potential for applications as RT superconductivity, you then also get vested national interests where your national physics society or research ministry might be pissed off if you don't involve enough researchers from the country which funded your research.

Honestly, if I was in their shoes I'd be delaying me sending out my samples into the world as well.

Of course this all hinges on whether they actually have a room-temperature superconductor or not. If they don't actually have one then the delay tactic could also just be in hopes for this all to blow over without them having to prove their findings.

jacquesm · 3 years ago
This is of a magnitude that finding the funding to get one of the original researchers to be custodian of a sample while they tour to some well respect other lab whose researchers then do the verification is well within the realm of the possible. That way you can have verification without losing control over where the samples end up, you could take it back when they're done with it.
tmpX7dMeXU · 3 years ago
Reproducibly is kinda a cornerstone of academia. This isn’t a product sneak peak.
ergocoder · 3 years ago
This is about material that didn't exist before.

The existence and effect of it should suffice.

How it is produced is a later step.

kevinmchugh · 3 years ago
An outside lab reproducing the alleged superconducting properties of a given sample of LK-99 would be a good reproduction.
weebull · 3 years ago
That would prove that they'd done it, but not that anyone knew how (including the original authors). If this is going to be useful, we need to know how to make it.
esrauch · 3 years ago
If they can prove this one sample is a room temperature semiconductor that would surely be relevant in deciding how much time to spend on trying to create more of the same material.
PartiallyTyped · 3 years ago
It’s like the 4 minute mile tbh. If we know it is possible, we can and will find a way.
will5421 · 3 years ago
It could be reverse-engineered.
c7b · 3 years ago
It's technically not necessary, but it's also not necessary that the authors give away their samples while they're still running tests (apparently they never even wanted to go public at this stage). The claims will be checked against very high standards, and we will know eventually. But we'll need a bit of patience, the authors haven't even submitted a paper to peer review yet. Science doesn't generally doesn't progress at the instant-gratification speed of social media.
shmatt · 3 years ago
Rarely do researchers get an opportunity to get 15 minutes of fame like right now. Anyone successfully recreating LK99 can

* Potentially do it better/purer

* Get a few news articles, and a mention in a very high traffic Wikipedia page

* Again if they do it well, get 8 figures in funding pretty easily. While during any other day they might be fighting for $50,000 here and $100,000 there

dotnet00 · 3 years ago
Hell, even if they can't do it better, they might simply be able to document their process better.
KineticLensman · 3 years ago
Partly to ensure that the whole process is well understood, and that there aren't some (unstated) aspects specific to the original lab. By way of example, when multiple labs conduct genetics experiments on mice, even the food that the mice were fed has to be standardised to ensure that it isn't driving variation between the results.
mensetmanusman · 3 years ago
And now even the sex of the researcher because mice were reacting differently surprisingly.
nwoli · 3 years ago
They did send some of the material to other labs
redox99 · 3 years ago
Source?
Ekaros · 3 years ago
If this material is real. And the mechanism producing it and materials like it could be understood starting process now would give head start on discovering materials that are like it.

It is pretty big pot to get part of if you discover way to refine the process, or find adjacent material with similar or better characteristics.

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psychlops · 3 years ago
Perhaps I have a cynical take, but I would guess that the labs are primarily verifying the claims to themselves to identify ways to make profitable research or production lines. They want to fund their own labs.

Publishing verified claims to help others would be secondary.

mensetmanusman · 3 years ago
That’s a cynical tale, but once you realize that profit is a useful way to signal to technologists what the world finds useful in aggregate, it means there is more likelihood that the science gets out of the lab to the real world.

tldr; for good or bad, humanity hasn’t found an incentive mechanism better than capitalism for deploying tech at scale.

layer8 · 3 years ago
It’s not strictly necessary, but knowing how to reliably synthesize the material is also important.
Jweb_Guru · 3 years ago
It's not necessary and they could simply offer it to other labs. The reason they have not done so (except to one small lab in South Korea that doesn't appear to specialize in superconductivity and claims they need six months to verify) is pretty obvious by now: they don't actually have a superconductor.
mergejoin · 3 years ago
this video sent by one of the original authors to the NY Times is the most significant peace of evidence to me: https://vp.nyt.com/video/2023/08/03/110377_1_03superconducto...
titzer · 3 years ago
I get that the manufacturing process doesn't produce pure samples, and that it's highly likely that the sample has many "islands" of the right lattice structure within it, of various sizes and shapes.

What I don't get is why they don't just pulverize the sample, put it in a magnetic field, and then sift out the floaty particles.

Things floating at an angle and halfway make me very suspicious.

Also, why are all these videos like 5 seconds long? The stuff is supposedly superconducting at room temperature and would supposedly float indefinitely. Why not just put up a 24/7 livestream, do stuff like pass strings/paper/loops/etc around it.

I think this material is very interesting, but all the videos I see are so clownish that I am getting more skeptical as time goes on.

BasedAnon · 3 years ago
it's possible pulverizing it would destroy the structure that allows this to happen in the first place
junon · 3 years ago
That is a MASSIVE piece of LK99 if it is true. Any information on source? Any details?
josalhor · 3 years ago
memen · 3 years ago
Couldn't this be explained by magnetism alone? How does it show superconductivity?
pouulet · 3 years ago
This man claims to have reproduced the same kind of effects with a simple ferromagnetic sample:

https://nitter.net/VanGennepD/status/1688052003216261120

zarzavat · 3 years ago
It’s not proof of anything, but it’s suggestive. The only other known materials that show that degree of diamagnetism are superconductors. That magnet is tiny!
WJW · 3 years ago
Magnetic levitation can't be done with normal magnets alone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earnshaw%27s_theorem

TL;DR: Normal magnets have two poles, and will try to flip themselves around to achieve a lower energy state. You cannot levitate a normal magnet on another magnet without mechanical stabilization. Superconducting materials actively repel all magnetic field lines and can achieve levitation without external stabilization.

danielbln · 3 years ago
Absolute layman here, but from what I've read it's supposed to show diamagnetism and the Meissner effect and flux pinning. Assuming no new weird physics, the only materials that exhibit those behaviours are superconductors.
f6v · 3 years ago
Suppose they have a room temp superconductor(even if it’s not pure). What’s stopping them from revealing the process? It seems like the way they describe it is extremely hard to reproduce. So, are they trying to figure out how to make the most money off it? What else could it be?
ajmurmann · 3 years ago
The steps are public. Famously the catgirl-boyfriend in Russia ignored them and came up with alternative steps to reproduce on their kitchen counter. However, it's very hard to get right and the original authors also needed many attempts and still had impurities.
unaindz · 3 years ago
They don't necessarily need to know what makes it work, they may do it ten times following the same recipe and it works only one of those times. The first method used to get a new material is usually not the best one, some iteration is needed.

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deyiao · 3 years ago
The optimistic aspects are: 1. The diamagnetism of LK-99 is very strong; 2. In almost all experiments, LK-99 has only exhibited one-dimensional diamagnetism, which is hard to consider as fraudulent coincidence; 3. One-dimensional diamagnetism is very mysterious, and there is currently no suitable theoretical explanation.
Jweb_Guru · 3 years ago
It has been noted that graphite also exhibits "one-dimensional diamagnetism" (in the sense that it has much stronger diamagnetism in one plane than the other two) and it levitates fine and isn't very mysterious. There also haven't been any reliable measurements of strong diamagnetism in LK-99. We have the video from the team, which is not evidence of diamagnetism let alone strong diamagnetism, and we have a handful of magnetic susceptibility tests from labs on tiny, tiny samples (much smaller than the one in the video) that found weak diamagnetism.

I don't really think anything about LK-99 is optimistic at this point, honestly.

shrx · 3 years ago
Is it one-dimensional (linear) or two-dimensional (planar)?
bjornsing · 3 years ago
Wouldn’t two-dimensional (planar) superconductivity lead to one-dimensional (linear) diamagnetism? If the eddy currents are stuck in a plane then the induced magnetic field should be perpendicular to that plane, no?
kzrdude · 3 years ago
Hyun-Tak Kim, one of the Korean authors, says it's a one dimensional superconductor.
tjpnz · 3 years ago
I keep expecting to see coverage of this in what some would term the "mainstream" press but it's crickets. I refuse to believe that they're waiting for more results either, even the more reputable publications will carry junk science. At the very least there's an interesting story to tell in the publishing of the paper.
criley2 · 3 years ago
cubefox · 3 years ago
> Alex Kaplan, who had majored in physics at Princeton University, found out about LK-99 on Hacker News, a news aggregation website.
iamflimflam1 · 3 years ago
I think they've done their "exciting breakthrough" piece and now it's not very news worthy.
tjpnz · 3 years ago
I didn't even see that. Am I living under a rock?
vhiremath4 · 3 years ago
It’s interesting to notice all unofficial institutions (bottom table) have a higher outcome of partial success. Unless the more legitimate labs are less capable, you have to wonder whether anything outside of an accredited institution can be trusted at all at this point. My guess is the allure of hype (more followers / engagement) is too strong for personal gain.
Arkhaine_kupo · 3 years ago
One interesting theory here is contamination. "Legitimate" labs have a higher standard of cleanness and material purity, more stable equipment etc.

If the results are to be believed the crystaline structure is hard to achieve as replacing the right parts with Cu seems borderline random.

less perfect synthesis materials (some of the unofficial institutions have even admitted to using subsitutes for some of the synthesis) so perhaps worse ovens that cannot sustain perfect temps, or substitute materials in some way help the right crystals to show up.

The original Korean lab said they only had a 10% success rate and admit the ppublished synthesis is incomplete because it is waiting full journal approval for the paper to come out.

So we should wait until we have better data, better replication and tbh a working theory of how it even works because it shows odd magnetic behaviour, whether its superconducting or not

KennyBlanken · 3 years ago
Or the simpler explanation: "legit" labs are more cautious about confirming successful synthesis and any test results, to protect the reputation of the lab and parent institution.
kraussvonespy · 3 years ago
I'm not a chemist so this may be a dumb question, but is it possible that polymorphs are coming into play here, and the less official labs are better at contaminating the sample with the correct polymorph?
mort96 · 3 years ago
> and admit the ppublished synthesis is incomplete because it is waiting full journal approval for the paper to come out.

Why would they have to wait for the paper to come out? Couldn't they just publish the steps in a blog post or something before the journal has approved the paper?

NotSuspicious · 3 years ago
Iris was talking about how she used construction grade phosphorous which apparently is often contaminated with Sulfur.
inglor_cz · 3 years ago
Unofficial institutions may have a lower institutional barrier for just dumping an "It works!" message on social networks.

Big institutions have a reputation to protect, which in this case means being extra careful before making any revolutionary claims.

I don't really think that either is bad, but I would expect confirmations from the stratosphere to come in quite a bit later. Also, it is vacation time in the Northern Hemisphere, so many bigger institutions will be staffed by minimal crews only - mostly by younger people, who don't have kids yet, but don't have much decision authority either.

In the Dept. of Algebra where I studied, it was uncommon to meet a professor in summer, much less several of them at the same time. The postdocs were present, but not the big wigs.

sgt101 · 3 years ago
It may be the opposite.

If you are at a national lab and replicate this you would have to do so with a very high level of detail and diligence before disclosing to the press. I am pretty sure that every PI of every lab will be demanding that all process and material is submitted to them and then going over it with a fine tooth comb before putting their name to it.

The private folks have much less to lose, as well as (possibly) more to gain.

entrep · 3 years ago
This could possibly be attributed to survival bias. I.e. the individuals are more prone to post their results only after a successful attempt.
yorwba · 3 years ago
At least two entries from the "Private" table (HUST and SSMRL-SEU) have already moved to the "Official/Institutional" table after the connection between the private individual and their institutional affiliation was made.
victorantos · 3 years ago
Indeed, it's quite intriguing to observe the apparent trend of unofficial institutions showing a higher rate of partial success. It raises questions about the factors influencing these outcomes. While it's important not to jump to conclusions about the legitimacy or capability of accredited labs versus unofficial ones, your skepticism is understandable.

Accredited institutions often have established protocols, rigorous peer review processes, and accountability mechanisms that contribute to their credibility. However, it's worth considering that unofficial institutions might have some advantages too, such as more freedom to explore unconventional approaches and potentially quicker adaptation to emerging trends.

kaba0 · 3 years ago
I believe it is just self-selecting. An unofficial institution that fails to display anything interesting likely won’t be added to the list.
archon1410 · 3 years ago
Reads like a substance-less ChatGPT comment. Probably is one.