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Posted by u/slymerson 3 years ago
Ask HN: Why did medium.com "fail"?
Medium.com is still up and running so it hasn't failed exactly, but it's not the best platform to go to anymore when it comes to blogging.

The post quality has deteriorated, and it feels like I'm reading the same posts over and over again. Not to mention the stupid paywall which is infuriating.

Why did Medium end up like this? In the beginning it was pretty good but then it started to wither. Is there any way for a platform like Medium to keep up with high quality posts while also paying their writers well?

Substack has done a good job at competing in the blogging market but it's different from Medium. Medium is more of a social blogging platform while Substack is more of a newsletter platform. Substack doesn't have an algorithm that recommends you content, but instead shows you exactly who you follow. This is nice, but I can't deny that I also like finding new content through a recommendation engine, which Medium also sucks at.

tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
I'm Medium's current CEO as of last July. I actually pay a lot of attention to this sentiment on Hacker News. For example, I've bookmarked and often share this recent HN poll where 88% of people here think there's a negative stigma to a medium article. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33223222

It's sad and entirely our fault. We didn't fail but we did lose our way. Here's how I see it:

1. Lost our way on recommendations. When I showed up the company was convinced that engagement equals quality. That's not true and it gets even more pronounced if you pay people to game your recommendation system. I think we were boosting articles that made people think we were a site for clickbait. The canonical example for HN is "Why NodeJS is dead" by a new programmer with zero experience or context. Readers noticed this, but worse, so did authors. And so we lost the incentive for a lot of the best and most interesting authors to bother because they were getting swamped by content-mill type authors. As of December, about 30% of our recommendations are generated by a new system that is picking much higher quality articles that have been vetted for substance over clickbait. This is getting a lot better, rapidly.

2. Got lost thinking about the creator economy, when we should have kept thinking about doers. Distribution was our winning value proposition (on top of simple free tools). We were built to find and boost individual articles and that meant that anyone with something great to say had a chance to get their story boosted, often by a lot. This is my original background in publishing: working at O'Reilly helping them publish programming books that were written by programmers. For a lot of topics, personal experience trumps everything. Not to knock creators, but by definition full time content creation gets in the way of having personal experiences that are worth writing about. We are partly through fixing this and #1.

Those are the two most obvious ones. But then there's a longer list. We competed with our platform publishers by starting our own in house publications. Those are shut down now. We started but didn't finish a number of redesigns and so the tools didn't get better for a couple of years. We're past that now and are putting out table stakes features again and some innovations too.

What I told our investors was that there was a huge pile of shit to dig out of, but that it would be worthwhile eventually. And I still believe both that there is a lot more to do and also that it'll be worthwhile.

wkat4242 · 3 years ago
I think these are not the main pain points.

The biggest issue for me is that medium makes me feel like a cash cow. The way it wants me to pay every step of the way, the way it hijacks copy/paste to insert its own marketing. The account it wants me to create. The trackers it inserts everywhere. You missed the step of making something great that people actually feel good about paying for. The grassroots "for users by users" community feel that other platforms still manage to tap into. A site you'd be proud to be part of and happy to pay for. The problem with an X-views paywall is: you annoy me so much that even if there's good content behind it I'm long gone before I ever find out because you've already pushed me away. It just has this "all about the money" feel that I deeply hate.

Also, not every author is out to make money. My personal blog is not monetized at all. It's more my way of outreach for my day job in tech. And I'd never want to put my readers through this experience. Free content should be exempt.

The other points like the quality of content dropping because you recommend the wrong stuff, yeah they dropped the value proposition even more. But they weren't the real problem.

thepasswordis · 3 years ago
This is literally it.

Especially hijacking copy/paste, or text highlighting. It just brings the entire feeling of the place down.

Imagine walking into a nice high end restaurant, and the server tries to sell you a credit card before taking your order. Would you continue going to that restaurant?

That's what this sort of garbage does to my sentiment around websites that do it.

binwiederhier · 3 years ago
> you annoy me so much that even if there's good content behind it I'm long gone before I ever find out because you've already pushed me away

I cannot agree more. The brand has destroyed itself by putting everything behind a login/pay-wall. I don't even click on medium.com links anymore, regardless of how interesting the content may be. And if I accidentally click on one, I click the back button in less than a second.

I understand the desire to monetize, but this is not the way.

andrei_says_ · 3 years ago
Exactly, it is the enshittifying of the service by corrupting it’s original promise and replacing it with “make more money”.

Nobody comes to use your service just because you want more money. People come to get value, and that has been sniffed out.

P.S. props to Corey doctorow for his fantastic “enshittification” posts.

https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys

Joeri · 3 years ago
On top of that, medium just isn’t a site that matters much to me. I am not interested in exploring medium to find the interesting articles they are boosting. For me medium is just a place that hosts articles that I find through reddit or HN or mastodon. The best thing it can do is let me read that one article and get out of the way. It doesn’t need features, it doesn’t need recommendations, it just needs to not be annoying to read, it needs to not try to engage me.

But the investors will never let it just be that, there’s too much money involved.

benjaminsky2 · 3 years ago
I love these. Someone posts a scathing critique of a company. Company representative responds with a mea culpa that misses the mark, and includes plans to fix. Top reply nails the actual problem, why the fix won’t work, and gets massive agreement. Company rep doesn’t respond.

You know it hits hard though. Hopefully they take it to heart. I like using medium as an author but HATE the “4 articles remaining” crap. I’ve been planning to move elsewhere but have been lazy. I’ve noticed from my readership numbers that I’m not alone.

mrexroad · 3 years ago
Exactly. X-views is just disrespect and ensures I never build a habit out of the platform’s content. Same goes for sites like FineHomeBuilding.com. Even if I know there’s good content there, I now avoid clicking just to not “use up” my stupid 3 views a month (yes, can copy/paste url to private browsing, but easier to just go elsewhere).
buryat · 3 years ago
these days i usually immediately close a page if it's on medium.com because of these dark patterns
naasking · 3 years ago
Exactly my reasons as well. I just kept running into walls on medium. I recall commenting on articles that I did end up reading wasn't smooth either.
eastbound · 3 years ago
Everyone needs to build a brand, with their own blog. When posting on Medium, it also feels like Medium is hijacking the long-term reputation that we’re building.

I don’t know, maybe Medium should promote individual articles that are on Wordpress instances of personal and corporate blogs. Who would be happy to pay to apply to the vetting process.

darth_avocado · 3 years ago
This. I never felt recommendations were a problem. I stopped reading medium articles once everything was behind a paywall. When most content is mediocre at best, paywalls aren’t helpful.
heavyset_go · 3 years ago
> The problem with an X-views paywall is: you annoy me so much that even if there's good content behind it I'm long gone before I ever find out because you've already pushed me away.

I'm not a spiteful person in general, but I won't pay for anything that does things like this out of spite.

I just assume I'll be paywalled before clicking a Medium link, so I don't.

DonHopkins · 3 years ago
Exactly, at the risk of repeating the same word that many other sibling comments begin with.

After Drupalgeddon, I signed up for Medium and started migrating my content from my site https://donhopkins.com to Medium, because I was tired of sinking time into maintaining my own blog.

I loved the simplicity of the interface and how nice it looked.

But it felt like Medium's goals were at cross purposes to what I wanted to use it for.

I just wanted to make my content easily accessible to the maximum number of people, and I was willing to pay a monthly fee for that. I have no interest in making money off of it.

But Medium seems to be designed for people who want to get rich quick, and the devil's contract that I entered into was that because of the possibility of making money off of Medium (even if I opted out), that gave them free license to make money off of me, so of course their pursuit of exploiting me of me overwhelmed my presumed desire to make money off of my own labor and content unless I systematically and enthusiastically played their clickbait pyramid scheme, and even then were I to monetize my own content at the expense of people being able to read it, all I'd get was chump change, so monetization simply wasn't worth it to me.

I'd rather pay more in exchange for freedom from the feeling of being treated like a prostitute by an exploitive pimp.

I got the distinct feeling that Medium's promotion algorithms not just ignored me but actually had disdain for me, because I wasn't playing their monetization game.

If I write an article about ray tracing lime jello, then why can't I submit it for syndication to three specialty groups about ray tracing, jello, and limes, without restricting everyone on the internet from discovering and reading it for free in my own channel? Why are all the popular syndication channels there for the express purposes of exploiting me to make money for themselves?

That's like having not one pimp, but an entire pyramid of pimps trying to bully my customers and restrict and exploit my work, that I'm happy and willing to do for free.

I'm not going to get into the user interface, which would require writing a hundred page Medium article in itself (that would be promoted to and read by exactly zero readers). I'll just say that at first it was the thing that attracted me, but then once I actually started using it, it was infuriating and frustrating and purposefully lacking obvious and crucial features (not to mention those that I came to depend on that were later removed or hidden).

There are some great things about the ease of writing and editing and formatting articles, but also so many conspicuous trepanations of the skull and lobotomization of the brain that it's obvious it's all part of some dark pattern to brutally control my mind and behavior.

The final straw was when I found myself unable to control the formatting of my images. I was SURE I was able to do that before, but the interface simply was ignoring my mouse clicks that I'd learned to use. At first I thought there was something wrong with my mouse. Then maybe my browser was broken. Or possibly it was my internet connection. And then finally I felt like I was losing my mind and mis-remembering that I used to be able to do this simple obvious thing, and wondering how it was that my previous articles were formatted in ways I couldn't figure out how to apply to my new articles. Then it occurred to me that perhaps I am being gaslighted?

Finally I googled for "why can't I control the formatting of images in my medium articles", and this came up:

https://help.medium.com/hc/en-us/articles/4420609316375-Imag...

>Image formatting feature deprecation

>As of January 2022, Medium no longer supports formatting options for images in the Medium editor.

>All images in stories are now displayed in a single image size. Other features, such as the alt text, captions, grids, and image links, remain unaffected.

>Medium has recently redesigned parts of its website in order to deliver a more browsable, consistent, and faster experience to all users. To that end, we have removed certain design elements on the published story page, along with the ability to format and resize imagery in the story editor.

>We know image sizing matters to many writers. So, why did we remove this feature? Simply put: We removed image sizing to accommodate a new right-hand column that provides readers with relevant context on the story they’re reading, along with related reads across Medium. Our data shows this new right-hand column benefits writers by presenting their stories to more readers across the network.

Then why the hell don't you program your web site to respond to the mouse clicks on images with a big red popup and loud buzzer that goes "BZZZZZZZTTTTTT!!!!! YOU CAN'T DO THAT ANY MORE!!!!" so I know it's MEDIUM and not ME that's at fault?

FUCK Medium's right-hand column. I don't give a shit about it. I don't want Medium to "provides readers with relevant context on the story they’re reading", I want readers to READ MY STORY. But obviously the only thing Medium cares about is castrating my formatting and gobbling up my precious square centimeters of screen space for the express purpose of diverting and distracting people away from reading my free content that I'm paying them to publish, and sucking them into the click-bait paid content that they actually make money off of.

The patronizing phrase "Our data shows..." is as bad as "I'm not racist, but..." because it tells me beyond doubt that Medium has become yet another data driven Zynga Cow Clicker skinner box.

http://www.cowclicker.com/

Medium's and Zynga's only goal is monetization by metrics, which suck out every drop of human creativity, design, and intent, and incarcerates my readers in the Clockwork Orange Movie Theatre Scene!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSQApGLbgNg

>I believe in second chances. I want us to work together. I want you to become a valued member of our organization. Surrender, and you will find meaning. Surrender, and you will find release. Take a deep breath. Calm your mind. You know what's best. What's best is you comply. Compliance will be rewarded. Are you ready to comply, Agent 33?

Winsaucerer · 3 years ago
Are there other platforms you'd be willing to name that you see as being grassroots "for users by users"? I may want to look into some of them.
whiplash451 · 3 years ago
Their clickbait-optimized recommendation engine is still a major problem, though.

The main landing page is such a shitshow. The feeling sticks to you no matter what after that.

whiplash451 · 3 years ago
You nailed it.

The same goes with coding. SO and github are good. Everything else is pretty much garbage.

illumin8 · 3 years ago
Yeah, the paywall is also a huge part of it. They basically committed suicide when they locked everything behind a paywall. At least most Substack authors are smart enough to make most their content free.
kodisha · 3 years ago
This x 100000000
irvingprime · 3 years ago
+100
sammnaser · 3 years ago
I have been conditioned to expect low-effort, surface level, self promotion fluff when I click on a Medium article. The site feels like if Quora and LinkedIn had a baby. I don't know, maybe it's just because I mainly stick to programming posts, and nobody decent is using medium for those anymore (you just can't customize the articles well enough, format code like you want to, have any degree of interactivity). This happened gradually, I didn't always have this association with the site...
binkHN · 3 years ago
> The site feels like if Quora...

Sorry. Quora, to me, is beyond useless. Every once in a while I'll click on a Quora URL only to be let down again. One day I'll do the right thing and blacklist it on my local recursive DNS server so as not to be tempted and waste even more time in the future.

Waterluvian · 3 years ago
Indeed. I’m tired of the SEO’s rehashes of an MDN page when I just came from the MDN page and am looking for someone’s experience with the given topic.
dawsoneliasen · 3 years ago
I’m a writer who used to write on medium, started writing on substack last October. To be honest, I like the business model of medium better. I get paid when people read my stuff. Plus having distribution built in, that’s great. But last year I started posting really thoughtful content that I put a lot of work into, and I would get like dozen views. I had 300 followers and several previously successful articles and I was getting nothing. I get more views on Substack with no distribution at all! So it is just straight up not worth it, in any way, for me to publish on medium. I really feel like it was a bad move to remove the discrete human curation. I really feel like you need a big wheat-chaff separator, so that readers aren’t getting shown clickbait garbage, and writers get distributed if and only if they are actually producing relatively thoughtful, relatively unique content.
ihateolives · 3 years ago
> But last year I started posting really thoughtful content that I put a lot of work into, and I would get like dozen views.

I used to be active blogger in 2000s and was a part of blogging community back then. One lesson that I learned back then was that you cannot predict popularity. Those heavy pieces you think will be hits with readers will not be and those that you throw together on a whim about your sock drawer will get more hits than anything else combined. Ymmv, but the effort you put in does not always equal the popularity it'll get.

GraffitiTim · 3 years ago
These aren’t the key problem.

The key problem is that you’ve lost the trust of the authors you want to attract. It’s no longer a place I can post and know that my content will be cleanly accessible to readers. I now think you’ll pepper it with pop ups and account demands.

It went from being a minimalist and trusted place to post, to now a feeling of feeding my own content into someone else’s machine and losing control of it.

GraffitiTim · 3 years ago
Also: if you've been the new CEO since last July and haven't figured this out, you'll fail to save Medium.

You mentioned paying attention to the sentiment and linked to the HN survey where people explained why they don't like Medium. The top comment was someone explaining this exact reason.

It's highly admirable that you are on here trying to listen, communicating issues transparently, and working to fix problems. But I think you need to listen even more deeply.

Unfortunately this will push you into the depths of the business model that you won't want to change, but is the fundamental reason for medium's eventual failure.

Right now is the moment to save it, as you read this note!

dawsoneliasen · 3 years ago
For me, it’s more like: if I write on medium, I know my stuff is being put right next to utter shit. I take writing seriously, and it honestly looks bad to be in the platform, because almost everything you see on there is so bad.
Aeolun · 3 years ago
I think that’s a pretty good summary. If I write something for the public to enjoy, I’d better to it on my own site. They may never actually find it, but at least they’d be able to access it when they do.
IshKebab · 3 years ago
I mean the key problem is surely that most readers don't want to pay to read blogs, so you can't really fund a large business from it. Medium has 180 employees apparently, which tbf is less than I expected. But still, it's a very simple site. Really it should be "finished" and running on like 50 employees at the most. You could then probably find it by relatively reasonable advertising instead of paywalls. Or potentially charge authors for features like image hosting.
zepolen · 3 years ago
There is only one reason medium went down the hole and it's because it annoyed the fuck out of users by demanding sign up (and subscription) just to read content OTHERS had created on the platform.

What the hell did they expect would happen?

Medium did one thing and one thing well: a fast, easy, and free way to publish an article for the others to read. The value of that is immense.

It has nothing to do with 1 and 2. Youtube is FULL of click bait videos and their recommendation system is garbage, but it thrives, you know why?

They take care of their best content creators, they even send a plaque! And they don't force viewers to subscribe, they show ads and offer a subscription to remove them.

Imagine if youtube tomorrow started telling every visitor that they must login to view any video, and if they view more than 10 videos they need to buy a subscription. Rumble.com would be popping champagne.

luckylion · 3 years ago
Am I misremembering that medium's signup nag screen was just cookie based? I have cookie autodelete after I close a tab, so I haven't seen those since forever.

On the other hand, the low quality content was what made me avoid medium.com links, so my experience perfectly mirrors the comment.

> It has nothing to do with 1 and 2. Youtube is FULL of click bait videos and their recommendation system is garbage, but it thrives, you know why?

It's extremely expensive to run a competitor to a global video platform, the platform is much stickier, the app makes it even more sticky, and they're a billion dollar ad company that can spend giant sums of money on creators? Starting a medium competitor is trivial in comparison, you can do so with Wordpress out of the box. It won't scale to the same size, won't be as nice etc, but it'll work. You can't do the same with Youtube.

tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
The NYTimes does it. And that's the thing think we got wrong: the pay off for what is behind the paywall has to be higher.
j_crick · 3 years ago
As a random HN visitor that clicks links to Medium from here, it’s been a while since visiting Medium has become the following experience for me.

First I click a couple of, let’s say, “why X is dead” links, then I start getting the message “You have Y free articles left this month”. Then I’m thinking, okay, the “X ded” articles were meh anyway, why would I even subscribe then? Somewhere in this scenario the incentive to subscribe is missing for me. Maybe there’s a world of cool articles out there, but from visiting a random article with the “you have Y articles left” popup they cannot be seen. Just my two cents!

That’s probably a chicken/egg problem, and I don’t know how I would even begin to untangle it if I were you. But I hope you will! Best of luck and thank you for the interesting remarks :)

easygenes · 3 years ago
Yes, that's precisely my sentiment as well.

As far as fixing it, the obvious first step is to at least be more generous with the article count... and don't show it at all until someone has seen at least 5 articles on separate days that month. Count a session clicking through a few articles on the same day as at most 2 article views (maybe have a separate limit of something like 5 articles in the same day). Don't be a nag trying to upsell when people haven't even had a chance to get interested yet.

That at least would cut down on the sleazy feeling of the whole site. An easy next step would be hiring someone as an editorial curator. Most of their job to start would be to build a regex list of article title structures which are overly cliched, so that those articles get de-merited by the recommender algorithm

Another way to feed a meaningful recommender: Allow users to tag posts (and other more clever things like deriving tags by looking at, e.g., which sub-reddits link to them). Build user profiles that are similar to how StumbleUpon had a "Stumble DNA" for users.

That's what I would be doing, anyway.

aidos · 3 years ago
Well that’s probably the response that’s most swayed my opinion of a service ever. Good luck with it, I really hope you can turn it around.
klabb3 · 3 years ago
Agreed, I think this deserves recognition. This is not the fake self promotion disguised as “brutal honesty” you see in the corporate word, there are actual admissions here that go beyond that, which leads even a cynic like me to take this seriously.

It’s also important to understand that a lot of people will never pay for or be happy with the paywall content model, especially for articles. So even a success in this domain would be hated by a lot of people.

Those of us who personally wouldn’t pay for articles aren’t the target audience anyway, and that’s ok. I think throwing rocks at paywalls is a stupid thing to do, especially when the only alternative is ad-tech. I’d rather have competing business models than not.

What doesn’t make sense to me, is that opaque clickbait recommendation engines AND paywall made itself to the same platform. This seems odd, because usually the former is a plague of ad-tech. Perhaps this is the result of cargo-culting from employees who came from ad-tech mindlessly replicating these patterns even where they don’t make sense.

glenngillen · 3 years ago
Hopefully you’re reading the replies here too then, because they don’t at all seem to gel with what you’re saying. The replies do reflect a lot of my own experiences though:

- Medium was a good platform for people to publish well formatted content online. - said content ranked quite high on Google. - There’s now a non-trivial amount of content published by myriad authors on there. - I have zero interest in following a particular author. I don’t want recommendations. I end up there as a result of a very specific need at the time. - you’re incessant pop ups to log in or sign up to read the content drastically reduced that value. - I’ve now been conditioned to just avoid any search results that look like they go to a Medium page.

I obviously have no idea how widespread that experience is. The unfortunate reality is that the damage has been done. You could undo all of the things that led to it and I’d never know given the muscle memory that’s been created.

CodeWriter23 · 3 years ago
From a non-CEO and non-creator perspective, the bait-and-switch from “come use our awesome tools you’ll love ‘em” to “now you our bitch and we pimping out your content” to me seems like that was the turning point for Medium.
nmstoker · 3 years ago
As a subscriber I find it particularly odd that the recommendations got so bad

You can understand the kind of service which lives on ad revenue giving in to conflicts of interest leading to them recommending against the reader's interests, but there's no obvious conflict when you're a subscription service. It ends up being endless formulaic articles of the "5 packages your next project must use" ilk, with questionable grammar and a number of clichéd folksy writing habits common in certain circles.

tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
Exactly. The whole reason we chose a subscription business model was so that we could focus on quality over clicks. I hope you are seeing some improvements. A lot more soon.
rkimb · 3 years ago
Just wanted to say thanks for your transparency - very cool to see you here acknowledging the pain points head on and sharing your plan to address them.
encryptluks2 · 3 years ago
These aren't even the real pain points. Most people using Medium aren't using it to discover new content. The CEO clearly has no clue what they are doing.
jzb · 3 years ago
I've never liked Medium, and your reasons aren't why. It's always been a primary example of building value on someone else's platform. Why? Why should I spend my time building value for you?

The "huge pile of shit" is a primary example of why authors should invest in tools they control and have a direct relationship with their audience. A portable relationship with their audience. As I see it, Medium is in conflict with that.

I'm really hoping that the Twitter fiasco and Medium's "huge pile of shit" will serve as object lessons why creators, publishers, etc. are better off building their own platforms even if it's slower initially.

hd95489 · 3 years ago
I don’t really see why everyone needs to build their own cms. It’s super inefficient to have to maintain all the infrastructure and keep it up to date just so you can publish 6-20 articles a year
tjpnz · 3 years ago
Are you sure you're paying attention? Those items fall way down the list of problems people will typically raise here. As others have said we're simply tired of being nagged and made to feel like cash cows, and this is doing serious harm to your brand.

Want to repair some of that damage right now? Stop prompting me to sign in when I try to read an article on Medium.

tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
Are we still prompting you to sign in? I don't think we've done that for a long time. There's a metered paywall but there isn't a regwall on anything that you wouldn't expect (i.e. comments).
chillbill · 3 years ago
I read your previous replies on HN and it seems what you’re doing is more like managing the public image rather than actually listening to what people want.

Medium is still very aggressive data harvesting machine. Look at what sub stack is doing and just do the same, what they’re doing is correct and valuable and what medium had done so far is absolutely full-on reader/writer hostile.

danbmil99 · 3 years ago
As someone who has spent time in the C-Suite, I applaud your courage in publicly addressing criticisms head-on. I just hope you are not fighting a losing battle against low employee morale, frustrated writers and angry, impulsive investors. I have a friend who got some traction on Medium, but if I want to write for myself I would choose Substack in a New York minute.

Best of luck!

nnurmanov · 3 years ago
You mentioned Substack, I’d like to question their model. With Medium they help with searching, although it needs an improvement, with Substack there is no such a thing, I have to subscribe to an author and read all his posts, but no human being can produce quality content 100% of time. I think they should change. Medium has better model, IMO
bburnett44 · 3 years ago
Yeah thanks for your transparency but how do you go about fixing these problems? Like it's great to acknowledge them but the "Why NodeJS is dead" article was in the suggested sidebar for me yesterday
tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
It's been frustratingly slow because our recs system is sprawling. Your main feed is populated differently than the read-more section you are referencing. Plus author behavior lags incentives. We actually had a clickbait about MILFs on a programming story the other day so it's worse than you are reporting.

Where we are today is 30% rolled out but not even announced to our authors. That'll happen in a week and is when I think author behavior will change.

That "X is dead" trope will disappear from your recs both because we'll have better things to show and because the new incentives make it not worth writing. An article like that is very sensitive to incentives because there is no authentic reason to have written it. Probably without Medium's payment, it never would have been occurred to the person.

ericHosick · 3 years ago
Do you know if Medium offers a verification process for authors to demonstrate that their content is not produced by a content mill?

As a Medium member since 2020, I've been writing articles that reflect real-world use cases and require 2-4 days of research and writing. Despite my efforts, I've only had one article boosted on the platform thus far.

It would be incredibly beneficial for creators like myself if Medium offered a verification process to prove our authenticity and help increase the visibility of our work.

pmontra · 3 years ago
I'm one of those people that don't follow authors and don't explore platforms. I access random pages on random sites from search engines or HN. That kind of solves the problem of quality.

Basically Medium is indistinguishable to me from any of its competitors, except it's quite slow to load so given two similarly promising links I prefer the other one. It's too much JavaScript because Medium can be fast if I turn JavaScript off using either NoScript, uBlock Origin, uMatrix etc.

throw009 · 3 years ago
Made an account to specifically say that I'll give your service a chance again because you actually admitted fault and how to fix it.
nicbou · 3 years ago
Great reply. It's rare to get such straightforward, measured responses from anyone representing anything.
mrcwinn · 3 years ago
Made clear by your own list, you seem to think Medium has a content issue.

The issue is how annoying it is to experience the content, not the content itself.

And wow, quite a claim to say that creators are too busy to have lives worth writing about.

Reconsider what went wrong with Medium so you can get on the right track.

tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
I think we're seeing a similar problem just from different sides. Why make the experience more seamless if the content at the end isn't also worthwhile? You're working left to right, I'm working right to left.
plaguepilled · 3 years ago
One thing you missed was the content ownership relationship between an author and their article. Articles posted originally on Medium are partially owned by Medium, which is a big reason why I do not use the service myself.
tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
100% not true. Authors retain their copyright and can revoke their content from our site at any point.
benjaminwootton · 3 years ago
I saw you made a similar post a while back and a whole thread of people who said it was the forced registration after a few views which damaged perception. The stuff above is trivial vs that.

That is by far and away your biggest issue in a community like this.

burnished · 3 years ago
Can you expand on that? I get irritated by the paywall shit too but its hard to see how it would be reputation damaging in the same way as freeze dried fungible 'content'. The feeling that im getting is that people feel aggrieved and are saying what they think will be most effective in airing that grievance - is there something more substantial there Ive just missed?
tomp · 3 years ago
get rid of the "register wall" or you're not even trying
camjohnson26 · 3 years ago
This is the only real problem, everything else is noise. If that means Medium can’t have a successful business, “Medium is Dead”
tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
Unless I'm misunderstanding you, we haven't had a register wall in a long time.
chirau · 3 years ago
If this is what you believe is wrong with Medium, then i don't think you will rescue it.

Medium.com now paywalls even bullshit content. Simple as that.

You limit me to x number of free articles in a month, yet the first 10x articles from medium i see are absolute trash with no quality control and vetting and all so by the time i hit my limit, I am already annoyed by it.

If you are going to paywall me, let the content behind the paywall be from vetted sources that i have some sort of reasonable expectation. You can put a 'Buy Me a Coffee' for the rest of the other unverified sources.

If i am searching for articles on an advanced technique and all i see are articles from newbies who are neither addressing the question nor providing new insights, you can rest assured I will not be paying for your service nor clicking top search links from your site.

tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
I think we agree. Quality is the issue. My points are the underlying reasons why.

Dead Comment

turnsout · 3 years ago
Honestly the paywall has trained me to avoid clicking on anything from medium.com… I wish it was more nuanced than that, but the reality is that the content is not essential enough to justify a subscription.

The Substack model is more sustainable, but something about their incentive model or community design seems to result in impenetrable 9000 word essays.

In either case, "what if blog posts cost money" is a tough business—I wish you luck!

1123581321 · 3 years ago
It sounds like you have a casual interest in longform articles. These subscription-driven publications are making their content more appealing to people who value longform enough to pay, which means the articles/emails are becoming really longform to appeal to those who like it the most.
flkiwi · 3 years ago
I was a Medium subscriber for a pretty long time. I'd seen some interesting, incisive stuff, so I subscribed. I'm happy to pay for quality. But shortly after I subscribed, the content I found was almost exclusively vapid self-promoters writing many, many words without any value about the latest buzzword they'd heard. It was so strange. The underlying tension between open, democratic platform, quality standards, and engagement is, clearly, not an easy one to resolve. I don't even claim to pretend to have an answer, but I would love to be in a position to pay for quality content on an open(ish) platform again someday.
tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
Completely fair. Hopefully we are getting better again. The quality is there, we just need to make sure we show it to you.
wirrbel · 3 years ago
my 50 cents, medium.com is a page I consciously avoid, a link to medium.com is a link I won't click.

medium.com has the feel of a dystopian internet that bugs you on every click. There is this classic Sci-Fi short story where the protagonist had to insert a coin in to the door to his apartment every time he wanted to use it. This is how medium has felt.

brookst · 3 years ago
> full time content creation gets in the way of having personal experiences that are worth writing about

That”s incredibly insightful and explains so much of what’s wrong with, well, everything today. The actual doing has become an afterthought to the pitch, the documentation, the branding, the promotion, the cobranding, the cross-promotion, the synergies, and so on.

It’s never been so easy for people with so little to say to say so much. Curation has not kept up with creation. I hope Medium recovers.

tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
Yeah, it's time for the curation economy! Did you read Neil Stephenson's book, Fall? There is a concept in there about edit streams that really stuck with me.
whiplash451 · 3 years ago
I have rarely seen a CEO speak so candidly about their company in public. Kudos for doing that.

You are drinking koolaid, though. Look at the comments. A lot of them are spot on.

j-krieger · 3 years ago
>1. Lost our way on recommendations. When I showed up the company was convinced that engagement equals quality. That's not true and it gets even more pronounced if you pay people to game your recommendation system. I think we were boosting articles that made people think we were a site for clickbait. The canonical example for HN is "Why NodeJS is dead" by a new programmer with zero experience or context. Readers noticed this, but worse, so did authors. And so we lost the incentive for a lot of the best and most interesting authors to bother because they were getting swamped by content-mill type authors. As of December, about 30% of our recommendations are generated by a new system that is picking much higher quality articles that have been vetted for substance over clickbait. This is getting a lot better, rapidly.

You say this but this went on for literal years.

tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
And I've been mad about it for literal years.
Cheezewheel · 3 years ago
>Yes, but only because they are aggressively making their reading experience terrible. I'd argue that a WordPress site with the default template is less offensive at this point. The typography and layout on Medium is fine, it's the popups, nags, paywall, and the like. For a while there was a lovely extension called "Make Medium Readable Again" but they aggressively broke that too. I'm happy to let Medium fall off the tech community radar.

Honest question, how can you, on one hand, link to the previous discussion surrounding the stigma of being a "medium.com" article, but fail to address the literal top response to both that thread and even the top response to your own comment? Is it one of those "CEO's are not allowed to speak plainly in public" things or do you not parse/agree with the information?

tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
Well, the top response on this thread changed after I went to bed. But yes, this is in the mix. People seem to have a long memory about a dark pattern experiment we seemed to have run with regwalls (I never personally saw it and the people behind it are gone). Plus the cruft. A lot of that has been removed. But the volume of comments about quality always seemed louder to me and I've seen quality draw people through a lot of cruft.
berniedurfee · 3 years ago
My personal experience was having written several articles based on my experiences that did get some views and claps or whatever. Hopefully they helped some people out.

Yet, I was below some sort of threshold to be in the club that would get me a few pennies if enough people read them, so I was kicked out of that program.

Not that the program mattered, but getting kicked out for not being popular enough was annoying, so I just stopped using the platform.

I still get a weekly summary that says my articles are being regularly read, which doesn’t seem likely. They appear to be made up numbers.

It feels like the platform quickly became another Quora and is 90% junk.

Not sure how you’ll regain the initial trust and stature Medium seemed to have, but best of luck. FWIW, I do like the site design and reading/writing experience. Keep it simple.

tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
Thank you. And I'm sorry we kicked you out. It was a rough cut and I think too rough. Also, we are stingy with our view counts so I think they are slightly more real than what would be reported elsewhere. For example, they are lower than what Google Analytics would tell you and much, much lower than what Quora or LinkedIn report.
srb24 · 3 years ago
I've been a paid subscriber to Medium for a few years now (I have a lot of writer friends and it seemed a way to support the art) and I think it's great (I'm not afiliated to the company in anyway and not one of their creators) - I read it every day and there's always at least 2-4 interesting articles which is pretty standard compared to other more pricey publications eg. the Financial Times (I read about 20 online titles every day) - I'm not sure why a lot of these commenters seem to think removing a paywall or increasing read free limits will help improve the company, if anything the reverse will happen and these people will probably never pay for anything. I would actually wouldn't mind sensible text style ads added to articles (think eary 21st century Adwords style) if only because if an article gives me an idea then it would be great to then find a relevant solution provider - if YouTube can stuff 2-4 ads in every video then I think you can safely run non intrusive ads though I guess the army of ad blockers might cause issues (something YouTube videos seem immune to) - oh and reopen the API as that would help data driven content generators
w10-1 · 3 years ago
"I still believe both that there is a lot more to do and also that it'll be worthwhile"

Everyone here is debating what went wrong. But how would knowing that help?

I would like a CEO to articulate what exactly will be "worthwhile" to each stakeholder in the future, and not just to clean up the mess. Instead I fear we have a generation of leaders who tell investors that the good times will come back and tell employees to tighten their belts - crisis managers instead of visionaries.

I think rough times are precisely when visionaries should have their greatest impact, because people are open to change. The question is not what went wrong, but where to go now?

freediver · 3 years ago
Congrats on still sticking to the idea of monetizing via payments vs throwing ads everywhere. This and your reply here is a rare positive signal coming from Medium nowadays.

A few personal observations:

1. For a paywalled service, quality is everything. When seeing medium.com in the URL, my expectation is that on average I will see low quality writing, that is forming its own character now, somewhat similar to LinkedIN [1] (exceptions exist but are invisible). Have you considered paywall to post, even as low as $1/mo as a content quality filter?

2. There is no reason for a 16k character article to require 6.5MB of data to render. (looking at a random article from the home page [2]). I hear that Medium has an optimized writing experience, why not have an optimized reading experience too?

3. Do you wish Medium became what Substack did, and if no, what is your vision for it? Why should one use Medium as an author or as a reader?

[1] https://twitter.com/StateOfLinkedIn

[2] https://entrepreneurshandbook.co/be-present-aff45d6421b4

tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
Re: 3. No but I wouldn't want to speak for them. But the obvious difference is that we want to hear from people that are too busy to be full time on building a mailing list. Someone above called me crazy for saying the best Medium article is better than the best NYT article, but if you think about it at all you realize journalists are relying on sources and Medium is a place where you can just hear directly from the source. (Except when we are hiding those posts in a mound of content mill stuff)
mkarliner · 3 years ago
You've already opened up a Mastodon instance, kudos for that. Why not go the whole hog and join Tumblr as a full Fediverse platform? That way, the smaller players get synergy against the big walled gardens
tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
We've got a lot more planned on Mastodon. Re: Tumblr. I think we just have a different view of how social software works and time is going to tell which one is better. I think the Tumblr approach sounds too much like syndication and that it's not going to end up being that useful. So we took the approach of having an instance and will be letting people in shortly. This way they are fully present and using the same software and exposed to the same norms as most other people. Maybe I'm wrong, and if so, that should be obvious soon enough.
asim · 3 years ago
Tony let me say it's super brave for you to come here and share this information. The critics are harsh but Medium is still a great resource and I continue to use it for my own personal writing. I think my only personal knock on it right now is things that would prompt the user to sign-up or hit a paywall. That's friction. That's friction that a lot of users don't like and I get that you're running a business but this is real what becomes the barrier to entry and then turns off an existing crowd.

My comment might get lost amongst many, you may not see it, but Medium still has the reach. I think as a blogging platform you can support a lot more customisation and become an actual platform that is the staple for where people put their content. I have a personal blog hosted on GitHub with Jekyll. I'd much prefer to use mediums tools but I'm reluctant to because of the experience for end users. Just my thoughts.

tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
Thank you. FWIW, I think the case for Medium over Github + Jekyll is solid. We are a little more user friendly, we have syntax highlighting now, you do not have to put your own articles behind the paywall, potentially we will help with discovery/distribution.
raywu · 3 years ago
Thanks for sharing this. What's your current view of Substack?

We've gone through many cycles of publishing platforms/trends. What catches your eyes in this space today (in general)?

tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
Great service. It's our stagnation that created any confusion or sense of competition. Our sweet spot is completely different than theirs.
ospider · 3 years ago
My biggest complaint about Medium is the anti-spam policy. I know it's essential for you to take some measures against spammers or crawlers, but I live in China, where Medium is blocked by the Great Firewall, the only way for me to access your site is to use a proxy. At least, it should not stop me from accessing the site when I was already logged in or I was a paying user.
robfitz · 3 years ago
Any chance you've written more about the system design and incentives side of it somewhere (whether about medium in particular, a previous biz, or just the mechanisms in general)? If so, I'd absolutely love to dig in... It's got big overlap w/ some stuff I'm trying to figure out for building useful communities, and it's not so common to find folks with a deep view on it ;)
tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
No. But you could email me.
fatboy · 3 years ago
I agree with the sentiment of every response I've read to your comment so far. The agressive tactics, paywall, general sense of sleaze all make me actively avoid following medium links.

But even ignoring all that, medium is the worst place for any article about programming because the code blocks do everything to make it harder to read them. There's no syntax highlighting, the lines wrap and the container the code is in pads the text to make a narrower column than the body of the article.

That's the opposite of what I want. Especially on mobile! It's one of the sites that make me wonder if its developers have ever tried using it.

https://postimg.cc/zbY3jQqc

tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
This is years too late, but I did have us had syntax highlighting. So that, plus better recommendations, plus returning incentives for the programming authors that do great work should change things.

Also, not sure if you know but we have the entire back catalog of Pragmatic Programmer books. I need to do a re-import to take advantage of the syntax highlighting, but it's still a pretty good feature. (Unfortunately, I was the programmer who did this import and so it's still on me to redo it)

safog · 3 years ago
Thank you for being so candid. FWIW I think you are bang on with your assessment and I'm really hopeful that I can get back to using Medium again.
tanng · 3 years ago
Also, Medium were blocked in some countries including Vietnam. Here we can't access Medium so need to find alternatives.
martin82 · 3 years ago
1. The paywall killed your product. When I google something, and it leads to Medium, and I then see that it is not accessible, I CURSE and immediately go away. Let this happen three times and in my mind it is cemented that Medium is "that shit platform that wastes my time clicking on inaccessible content" - same like Quora, by the way. As long as the paywall exists, you will not get rid of that stench.

2. Substack killed you. I know that HN is mostly populated by extremely left leaning people who wholeheartedly believe in all the Current Things that MSM feeds them, so this argument will fall on deaf ears, but I will write it here anyways because it is the truth and if you aren't just a Woke CEO, you might actually care: During the pandemic, Substack was the only news source where I could get proper information about what is going on. Virtually everything that got people cancelled on Twitter and labelled as conspiracy theorists eventually turned out to be the truth. These people all moved to Substack. Thanks to Elon we all know now that Twitter was infested by deep state actors abusing the platform to spread disinformation and manipulate elections - I'm not sure if this is still true but I somehow remember that Medium emerged as a sub-company from Twitter, so I must assume that the exact same ways of censorship and propaganda that brought Twitter to its knees are also in place at Medium. If that is true, and as long as that is true, I can guarantee that you will have zero chance whatsoever against Substack.

tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
FWIW, the idea that Medium is progressive is kind of ridiculous if you look at the view numbers. The vast majority of people are reading about apolitical topics, namely professional development, hobbies, personal stories.
xmorse · 3 years ago
Another pain point for me: no syntax highlighted code blocks

I see a lot of people using GitHub gists to embed code blocks for this reason, this means that writing any article code related is a pain

Edit: i think it's available now but definitely too late

tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
Yes. We added them recently.
swyx · 3 years ago
first of all i appreciate your willingness to own the issue, thats what i would hope any CEO would do.

my main issue as a reader (im the guy who frequently campaigns to just ban all medium.com links on HN) is the authwall that is thrown in our faces before we've had a chance to even read the article. its against the open web and not something i would encourage on HN. i understand youve changed your defaults but i still encounter these walls enough that there is just overall brand damage to Medium as a whole. mr stubblebine, please tear down that wall.

zby · 3 years ago
There are two types of writers - professionals and amateurs. Professionals want to earn money on their writing - so they are happy with paywalls. Amateurs have no hope to earn money but want their writing to be distributed as wide as possible - so paywalls make them sad. Professionals also want their work to be read - but they understand that paywalls are the only way to make people pay for their work.

Medium tried to make two of these groups happy and that is difficult. Both need many of the same tools - like nice looking templates, easy editing, comments and also recommendations - so there is a lot of investments that could be used by both groups and there is also a lot of synergy between these two - but they need to be monetized differently.

I think it is too early to say that Substack has found the good model - they managed to attract the cool guys - but Medium was also fashionable for a little while. But right now Medium needs a total rebranding.

tmaly · 3 years ago
On the positive side, the mobile app was amazing for writing. I can't think of a nicer interface to write a blog post on a phone.
bluelightning2k · 3 years ago
I literally couldn't use Medium.

I think I've changed my email since my first Google SSO and you guys haven't dealt with that scenario - but it's probably pretty common

anothernewdude · 3 years ago
Do you think the name held the site back from becoming any bigger?
rainbowjelly · 3 years ago
Sorry I laughed.
sethd · 3 years ago
I wish you the best of luck. If you can turn Medium around, that will be quite the achievement and will make for a much more interesting read on HN than this thread.
namelosw · 3 years ago
Thank you for writing this.

I'm convinced the single biggest factor is the wrong incentive leads to poor quality, well beyond other factors like the paywalls, publications, etc. Not only it disinterests reader but more importantly, it push away good writers. Content is the beating heart of your platform.

It started out like a beautiful small town. The residents are nice and talented, the streets are clean and elegant - it attracts tourists.

It went wrong when the incentive encouraged bad actors to resides in town - litters and tea scammers are everywhere. Not only they're hurting tourists, they discourage good actors from residing in - nobody wants to live in dirty neighborhood and live with bad neighbors.

Thus the negative feed back loop, which causing the infinite downward spiral on quality.

julienreszka · 3 years ago
You're clearly out of touch. Are you even paying attention? None of those are the main reasons people hate your website.
pdimitar · 3 years ago
While it's normal for a CEO to focus on engagement statistics and whether the company focused on the right way to monetize, Medium is also read by quite a lot of technical and professional folks, and the pain points I encountered are:

1. Paywalls. Some people don't mind. Make it obvious in the link itself that this blog is monetized. I want to know if it's worth navigating away from what I am doing right now.

2. Site it slow. Ask yourself why did Medium scraper websites (that strip tracking) had to come into existence. If the market actively tries to circumvent you then it means you are not in connection with the users who you would want to spend time on Medium. This Silicon Valley mentality of "extract money, we'll think of performance maybe one day next century" is driving away the professional users who would pay for your service.

3. Too much trackers (likely related to #2). If that's your monetization model then the business is already on its way out.

You can do a lot with Medium. You can be the specialized Facebook for small club of readers and authors. You can help people organize events. You can provide a platform for book writers to draft and store chapters. You can put a paywall like "early access to my book's new chapter", too.

These things are not what drives insanely huge engagements that investors love but they absolutely will be bringing some money.

This hyper-growth mindset has to go. There are good ways to make money and not make your product suck.

I loved the idea of Medium when it first came out and consumed it a lot. For no less than two years now though, I use various scrapers and read stuff ad-free and tracker-free. Think of why it has came to it.

emporas · 3 years ago
I used medium a lot to read Rust articles back in 2020 when Rust's community was smaller and not much of resources available, except of raw code in github. It worked wonderful for my purposes, and the recommendation algorithm worked very well. For six months i would read 5 articles everyday of Rust articles the algorithm sent me. Then after 6 whole months of reading the recommendations the algorithm stopped sending me Rust articles, or repeating ones i had already read. Well i had finished the whole website at that point!

Medium is a good website in opinion for articles about programming, hardware, gadgets etc. Most of the articles are not that great, but they are not bad either. The algorithm works well.

The paywall is necessary for now, but soon a better solution will become popular for paying on the internet. The pay as you go model will become easier and cheaper. Maybe a solution of reading the article and afterwards clicking like/clap transferring a small amount of money, like 0.1 cent will become a viable solution for writers and the service.

That said, i write my articles on lichess. It has the best website design i have ever seen, and it is fast as hell.

AlwaysBCoding · 3 years ago
I second everyone saying the paywall is the actual problem. I used to write on Medium a lot because it was a simple way to blog and share essays with a minimalist UI. Now it just feels like a clown product because you have a paywall between users and reading. I would never subject my writing to an ugly paywall and wouldn't want the experience my readers have with my content to be ugly and broken like that.
SPBS · 3 years ago
> And so we lost the incentive for a lot of the best and most interesting authors to bother because they were getting swamped by content-mill type authors. As of December, about 30% of our recommendations are generated by a new system that is picking much higher quality articles that have been vetted for substance over clickbait. This is getting a lot better, rapidly.

Deboosting those content-mill authors is a good step! However changing the recommendation system is not enough. With Google, everyone interacts with it through the search box so them changing the search results is enough to influence what SEO junk is on the front page. But with Medium, anyone can promote their junk articles on Reddit and on other platforms and it will still result in a click and a paywall, which contributes to people avoiding medium.com links. You need to stop incentivizing these content-mill authors altogether (or prominently blackmark these posts/blogs so everyone knows to avoid them).

AlbertCory · 3 years ago
Thanks for writing this, Tony. I had a couple articles on Medium, and now I have a lot more on Substack, even though they're free.

Let me recommend Ted Gioia as someone to listen to. I actually pay for his newsletter, while there are hardly any others I'd pay for. From what I can see, if you are good on Substack, you'll make a lot of money. That does mean writing about something other than your current life and/or romantic involvements, which are, I'm sorry to say, boring. An awful lot of the Substack writers are doing that, too.

Maybe they do have some far left-wing writers, too, but Medium is just loaded with them.

fatih-erikli · 3 years ago
Hello, What do 6021 employees do in a medium?
gcj · 3 years ago
What made me go away, as a reader and writer, was the paywalls. It's not a very smart idea to put a paywall over text when your business modal is providing content.

I'm sure there are better ways of monetizing it.

deafpolygon · 3 years ago
Look at how feedly does it.
nurettin · 3 years ago
I stopped visiting the site after greedy publishers started to destroy links with useful information.

There should be a penalty for a free page going behind a paywall. Paywall pages also appear at the top of google searches because they were left there as a bait for indexing bots for months and then got paywalled. Not cool, medium.

magusd · 3 years ago
so, marketing did it again
hbarka · 3 years ago
I must say that the hook and lede of Medium articles are very effective. They are sticky and grabs your interest. The frustration comes with the paywall. There must be another way, like a free summary (maybe use ChatGPT) that will compel me to pay.
tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
Most other metered paywalls move the paywall much lower in the page. That would be a simple way--let you get 1/3 of the way so you are more confident in what you are getting. Or move the location of the paywall.

In general though, we love being subscription driven rather than ad driven and I don't expect that to change.

napolux · 3 years ago
the sketchy SEO tactics(at least at the beginning), invasive paywalls, clickbaiting, etc…

medium was doomed from the start. but being myself a detractor from the start i’m probably too much biased

aaronrobinson · 3 years ago
You put up a paywall dude and forced creators behind it. Stop deluding yourself that the failures are elsewhere.
michaelhoffman · 3 years ago
I used to host my blog on Medium because it was the easiest way to get a simple, attractive blog available with a minimum amount of work.

Then they started adding various annoyances, which I'm sure they thought would help with financial goals, but it eliminated the "simple, attractive" part. As a reader, seeing that a link went to medium.com used to mean it was easy-to-read and text-focused, and afterwards, it meant that it would be full of intrusive crap one would have to deal with before reading. To the point that people started making [special browser extensions](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/make-medium-readab...) just to remove them.

As a writer, whose main interest is in people reading my stuff (rather than, say, monetization), I wanted to move it somewhere where the readers would not be annoyed and maybe refuse to click on the link in the first place because of the domain.

I'm sure the above describes many others' experiences as well.

jklm · 3 years ago
Interestingly enough, Substack is heading down the same direction - when you get linked to an article, it now forces a full screen popup on you asking if you want to subscribe or just read.
drc500free · 3 years ago
Somehow I find that less annoying with substack, because their positioning is clearly "look, this is a newsletter, not a blog." The dark UI patterns around dismissing the pop up are annoying though.
SQueeeeeL · 3 years ago
None of the incentives changed. We really just need someone egalitarian to make the craigslist of blogs and never be tempted to stab the goose who's laying the golden eggs for quick monetization. The blogging space is too long-term for that short sighted nonsense
ren_engineer · 3 years ago
companies have to make money at some point, it's not coincidence all these same types of sites do the same thing once they've burned through their VC money and have to make money. Hosting this type of stuff is a commodity service, it's why you constantly see a churn of people from each VC subsidized service
simonsarris · 3 years ago
As an author, you can turn this off in the settings
subarctic · 3 years ago
It's done that as long as I can remember - the "let me read it first" thing, right? Or did they change something recently?
SanjayMehta · 3 years ago
Substack has RSS feeds.
HelixEndeavor · 3 years ago
https://bearblog.dev seems like a good alternative for simple, clean, good looking blogs. Prioritizes quick loading and efficient web design.
binaryanomaly · 3 years ago
https://hashnode.com/ is close to what medium used to be, I suppose. Hope it will stay like that.
judahmeek · 3 years ago
Is there a way to confirm whether hashnode is VC-funded or not?

Because if it is VC-funded, enshittification is inevitable.

dark__paladin · 3 years ago
Where did you move to? Self hosting?
michaelhoffman · 3 years ago
Static Pelican site hosted on bitbucket.io. I'd use GitHub Pages if I were doing it today.
qudat · 3 years ago
I moved to Hugo and then built prose.sh
raywu · 3 years ago
Do you like Svbtle?
Nifty3929 · 3 years ago
I think it's that sites initially provide valuable services for free, at a loss. Users love them, and so they grow. But loving something and being willing to pay for it are very different.

The site expects, eventually, to stop losing money and even maybe earn a little profit. So after they've become popular and everybody seems to love them, they start trying to charge a little money here and there, or otherwise find some way to monetize.

Then the site realizes that all those users that love them so much, don't really love them enough to pay or to tolerate other irritating forms of monetization.

So then the site has a choice: A. Continue losing money forever B. Keep up the monetization efforts, despite knowingly irritating and losing your customers, partners, content producers, etc.

And most reasonably choose option B, even though they know it's the death knell.

tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
I'm Medium's CEO and I left a longer answer down below about what I think went wrong. But I also think your summary is about right. Every startup needs to choose a business model eventually and we botched the rollout of ours.

The subscription actually does work and could (will?) be enough to sustain us. But we didn't roll it out in a way that's congruent with anything else we were doing.

Most notably, the subscription implies that we have some premium content to share. But instead of incentivizing premium content we spent the subscription revenue to pay people to flood us with low quality click bait and content mill articles. Of course, that's not what we set out to do. But it's effectively what happened. I'm partly through reversing it.

bachmeier · 3 years ago
> But instead of incentivizing premium content we spent the subscription revenue to pay people to flood us with low quality click bait and content mill articles.

I suspect these things, but I seldom get confirmation. My view is that Medium articles are low-effort crap that are not even worth the effort to click the link (I stopped clicking those links entirely quite a while back). I wish they'd put half the effort into the article content as they put into getting me to click.

I hope you get it turned around; this is largely a market that isn't served. Subscribing to newsletters is pretty dang expensive with anything less than a FAANG salary.

Nifty3929 · 3 years ago
Thanks so much for taking the time to respond.

>>The subscription actually does work and could (will?) be enough to sustain us.

You're touching on an Option C or perhaps option B2 here, where the supply and demand curves intersect, but much farther to the left than the current user base. Meaning there ARE enough users who are willing to pay you enough to keep going - but it's many fewer than you currently have. So you settle into a much smaller, but sustainable business. Not necessarily a bad outcome!

Question for you: Suppose that users can pay you $X (say, 5 cents) per article they read, but you are not allowed to know who they are or anything about them, they don't login at all, and you can't show them any ads. That is, it's a "pure" transaction similar to anonymously purchasing a hamburger. Is there some value of X high enough for this to be worthwhile for you? Do you think enough of your users would go for this to make it work?

unityByFreedom · 3 years ago
I like your honest answers here. It's refreshing to hear in the tech space after a decade of wanna-be Jobs copycats. Good luck with the business.
neodymiumphish · 3 years ago
Seems to me that a certain cost should be impressed against the publishers of the content as well, to help prevent that content mill of garbage as well as offset the potential costs to regular readers.
whiplash451 · 3 years ago
There’s a ton of other things you need to fix.

As a writer, seeing random people (bots?) highlight my article to death, making it essentially illegible, was a show-stopper for me.

teach · 3 years ago
Edit: this is such a good take that it's posted as a top-level comment slightly further down! That's what I get for not reading more responses before commenting.

Original:

"Here is how platforms die: first, they are good to their users; then they abuse their users to make things better for their business customers; finally, they abuse those business customers to claw back all the value for themselves. Then, they die."

from TikTok's Enshittification[0] by Cory Doctorow

[0] https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/

wkat4242 · 3 years ago
Wow that article is a great example of how long-form content really shines. Very well written.
xtiansimon · 3 years ago
As a reader i perceive Option B, keep up the mobilization efforts, as corrosive, like rust, or mold. There is no limit, and so you feel you’re always getting tricked. I’m not saying this of Medium specifically. I’m just react to this Option B idea.

This irks me because scammers are always trying to trick me. Legit companies are trying to trick me with dark patterns to spend micro amounts of money (Square is my current nemesis). For me there is always a level of opposition to these efforts.

Mentioned here was the New York Times. It’s always a subscription. You may be able to find a discount, or a special deal, but it’s always a subscription.

shusaku · 3 years ago
We lived through kind of a strange time thanks to low interest rates. For awhile you basically could get free lunch on these VC companies dime because they were willing to do everything at a loss. As soon as they tightened the purse strings, you just moved on to the next party. But hopefully things get more sane going forward...
zem · 3 years ago
cory doctorow has codified this precisely in his theory of "enshittification":

8<------------------------------

Here is how platforms die: first, they are good to their users; then they abuse their users to make things better for their business customers; finally, they abuse those business customers to claw back all the value for themselves. Then, they die.

I call this enshittification, and it is a seemingly inevitable consequence arising from the combination of the ease of changing how a platform allocates value, combined with the nature of a "two sided market," where a platform sits between buyers and sellers, hold each hostage to the other, raking off an ever-larger share of the value that passes between them.

https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/

chubot · 3 years ago
Yes, definitely agree, and "enshittification" is a good word for something I've observed for ~25 years.

Very similar to this phenomenon, in relation to imgur and so forth:

https://drewdevault.com/2014/10/10/The-profitability-of-onli...

I think that all image hosts suffer from the same sad pattern of eventual failure. That pattern is:

I wouldn't place the blame squarely on the company however. It's also true that consumers have predictable behavior patterns -- they want free stuff, and they will stick around to get that, and then move to the next thing.

On the other hand, we want free stuff because we don't want to sign up for subscriptions, and companies are always making that annoying -- betting on us forgetting to cancel, making it hard to cancel, tacking on hidden fees (banks do a lot of this), etc.

I wish that money could just be exchanged for goods and services, as Homer Simpson once noted ...

zem · 3 years ago
there's also this old ribbonfarm post on "the locust economy", describing that sort of consumer behaviour: https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2013/04/03/the-locust-economy/
bee_rider · 3 years ago
This definitely seems like at least half of it.

With blogging platforms, an additional aspect: I don’t really care to read the opinions of people who are mostly interested in blogging about a topic. I want to read from actual practitioners. As soon as a platform becomes well known, the non-practicing bloggers show up and it turns into a crapshoot whether what I’m reading is first or third hand information.

And that’s during the early still-OK-ish phase. After a while the natural tendency is that the non-practicing folks will produce more content because they’ve got more spare time!

MattDemers · 3 years ago
I'll agree; we're just getting to the "Substacks writing about writing Substacks" phase now. Up until now all those people were on Medium.
dannyr · 3 years ago
Love that post. Sadly, every major tech platform is going thru "enshittification".
bee_rider · 3 years ago
The enshittification cycle has always been here, but progress continues. It just feels like things are getting worse as the programs we grew up on enter the shit-zone part of their lifecycle.
xnx · 3 years ago
Terrific and succinct observation. How does competition not prevent this? Does lock-in prevent competition? e.g. Medium's suck-factor will always hover at the level where it's just not quite worth it to use something else if you already have many posts on Medium. New users will still pick Medium because it sucks, but is still popular/accepted.
PaulHoule · 3 years ago
The remarkable thing about Medium was that it went downhill so quickly, or, compared to other platforms like Twitter, it started trying to make money early in the process of gathering an audience, which limited it's growth.

In my mind it never had a good reputation. Successful blogging has three elements: (1) writing a lot, (2) technically running your blog, and (3) promoting your blog. In principle Medium took (2) and (3) out of your hands so you could focus on (1) but I think Medium attracted a person who was too lazy to blog before and who is interested in working on (1) as little as they are on (2) and (3).

In principle you might make some money blogging on Medium but a lot of people blog to promote themselves or their business and the registration wall reduced their reach and actually damaged their personal brand because I think a lot of people felt it was annoying to have to register to read articles on a blogging platform that is just a bit worse than the rest of the web as opposed to just a bit better. (Certainly anyone whose Medium blog posts connected with someone has received an email telling them it's a shame that a good blogger is blogging on Medium)

lmm · 3 years ago
There's a wonderful blog post I want to find from years back about Starbucks switching from manual to automatic espresso machines, saying how the next generation of good coffee shops are probably getting their start by buying those manual machines cheap. And more generally, the cycle is that for a new brand having a few people who love you is more important than having people who don't hate you, so you take risks, and then at some point you're mainstream and that flips and it's more important to not be hated.

I'd add to that that brand reputation is monetisable and monetised. It's almost a playbook at this point: sell something high quality to people who are really into that thing, get a good reputation, then dilute the quality down and you can coast on that reputation for a while while selling cheaper versions at the original high prices to a much wider audience.

I don't know what the counter to this is, other than customers paying much more attention to when a brand changes their products, which would not be free for them.

drc500free · 3 years ago
Competition doesn't generally apply because these are usually venture-backed companies in the first few stages. The point is to prevent competition in the third stage by using the first two stages to lock in both sides of the market.
flanbiscuit · 3 years ago
Are there examples of sites/platforms that are doing it "right"? (however you interpret 'right' to be, I guess). Ones that have been around for a while and haven't enshittified?
walterbell · 3 years ago
https://NeoCities.org, free static hosting, $5/mo for higher storage/traffic limits.

https://Groups.io (rebooted Yahoo Groups).

heleninboodler · 3 years ago
Bandcamp, although many are holding their breath since the Epic takeover.
robotnikman · 3 years ago
Not sure if it counts, but Steam maybe?
ALittleLight · 3 years ago
Hacker News
TedDoesntTalk · 3 years ago
zem · 3 years ago
hm, maybe the crowdfunding platforms like kickstarter and indiegogo? as far as I know those haven't started down the curve yet. but I would guess it's inevitable once you take vc money and are beholden to your investors to squeeze out every drop of revenue you can :(

it would require a really strong mission statement baked into the company to say "we are here to provide value to our users and everything else has to come second to that". if nothing else you eventually get acquired, e.g. tumblr, and everything goes to hell then.

geerlingguy · 3 years ago
Craigslist
bartvk · 3 years ago
Slashdot?
anigbrowl · 3 years ago
This is just a cool-sounding wrapper on the much older concept of rent-seeking, which has a solid theoretical literature behind it. Doctorow seems to specialize in this.
zem · 3 years ago
it's more like a specialisation of "rent-seeking" when applied to this particular case and pattern. nothing wrong with inventing a more specific term when the pattern behind it gets common enough.
quickthrower2 · 3 years ago
It is like rocket stages or a maggot turning into a fly: each stage bootstraps the next but cannot last forever
slymerson · 3 years ago
do all platforms go through this? if so, it's very sad.
sircastor · 3 years ago
It's a sort-of inevitable thing when your focus becomes earnings and growth rather than whatever your actual business is. Facebook's business was providing a common platform for people that know each other to share publicly. Twitter's business was a billboard to share what they're doing. Google's business was to provide a way to find things on the web.

Unfortunately, none of those things is particularly easy to charge money for. So you take Venture Capital to fund your development, and then you try to find a way to pay that VC through other means - Advertising mostly, it turns out. Then you have to keep pushing that because your investors want returns, and it funds the party.

reso · 3 years ago
Lots of answers point to the user experience of Medium becoming worse. This misses the bigger picture: the economics of free blog hosting don't work.

V1 of Medium was great because they weren't concerned with monetization. The product was built fully in the interests of the user. Once the company grew, they saw that the bottom line was not sustainable, and so started adding features that would possibly increase revenue. These features were built in the company's interest, not the user's interest, so the user experience got worse.

This isn't their fault, it's just a fact of business. People wouldn't pay enough to make the project worthwhile (either directly or indirectly in the form of ads/other monetization avenues).

Maybe Substack has found a different model that genuinely does work, or maybe they will follow a similar trajectory to Medium.

JohnFen · 3 years ago
I think a big part of it is that users/readers understandably feel that a bait-and-switch has happened. Because it has.

I really think the whole idea of "make it free at first, monetize later" is what's broken. If the intention is ultimately to have it generate revenue, the best thing to do is set up the revenue mechanism right from the start.

dumpsterdiver · 3 years ago
Agreed. Many people who have the means don't mind paying for things that bring them value, and they would much rather just pay for consistency than have that value eroded over time.
Nifty3929 · 3 years ago
Well, they can start free, get 1M users, and then try to monetize.

Or they can charge up front, get zero users, and then find something else to do with their time.

joegahona · 3 years ago
I agree that UX complaints miss the bigger picture. Lots of the highest-traffic sites have terrible UX. Lots of people will put up with poor UX if it delivers the content/product they want. Poor UX does not help -- but it's not the main failing of Medium, in my opinion.

Medium has been plagued with endless "pivots" -- not sure if it was wimpy yes-men who had to give in to every U-turn from the founder or if it was just fundamentally bad ideas. They also let the Substack idea pass them by, which can only be described as embarrassing.

On the other hand, your point about Medium flailing away trying different features to add to the bottom line is poignant. Very few written-content publications have figured out monetization. There's always a tension between ads, which yuck up the experience, and paywalls, which hobble virality and penalize your most passionate users.

idlewords · 3 years ago
The short answer is that the founder is an introverted guy who sort of weathervanes around when it comes to his vision for the product, he had enough prior success to get lots of funding for his project, and there was no one with enough authority to say "no" to his shifting ideas or replace him with a more effective boss.

You see this pattern a lot with successful people. Nassim Nicholas Taleb is a brilliant guy, but his later books are unreadable because he won't consent to have an editor. Your favorite band takes five years to release a follow-up to their breakthrough album. Pundits get a sinecure at a major news outlet on the strength of their insightful thinking and then start producing drivel.

Ev Williams had the misfortune of being given a limitless budget and the freedom to realize his vision. Medium with three developers and a half million dollar budget might have been unstoppable.

tonystubblebine · 3 years ago
How's the new management doing?
slymerson · 3 years ago
interesting point
hexage1814 · 3 years ago
This whole thing reminds me of this comment when Tumblr "died":

"I think the real problem here is that big media corporations seem to believe that social media userbases are fungible, and persist in acting on this belief no matter how many times it’s demonstrated to be wrong.

There’s a specific pattern of events that plays out over and over (and over) again, and it looks something like this:

1. Social media platform becomes popular

2. Social media platform is purchased by big media corporation in order to gain access to it large user base

3. Big media corporation realises that social media platform’s demographics are not the demographics they want to sell things to.

4. Big media corporation institutes measures to drive away “undesirable” users, apparently in the honest belief that the outgoing users will automatically be replaced by an equal number of new, more demographically desirable users

5. This does not, in fact, occur

6. Social media platform crashes and burns

You’d think that, by the sheer law of averages, at least one person who’s capable of learning from experience would become involved in this whole process at some point."

kmeisthax · 3 years ago
Cory Doctorow calls this enshittification[0], and it applies to more than just social media companies. But social media is the most obvious representative of this cycle.

[0] https://pluralistic.net/2023/01/21/potemkin-ai/#hey-guys

PaulHoule · 3 years ago
Substack stole their thunder.

Superficially Substack looks a lot like Medium, to the point where I'd say Substack was forced to prove it was something much better than Medium from the very beginning.

Substack gets much better engagement with subscribers because each Substacker has to earn each subscription. A Substacker can get a passionate audience that rewards good writing.

Substack though has the serious problem that somebody can make their own email newsletter + credit card gateway script for $20,000 or less so the kind of person who makes $1,000,000 a year on Substack can go their own way and keep more money. Substack makes almost all their money off two handfuls of writers so having the best ones walk out is a constant threat -- they are saying "we aren't a mailing list company" and would like to have a richer engagement platform, like OnlyFans, that substackers would find harder to replicate, but it's never easy to get people who play game A interested in playing game B, and if they do play game B they are as likely to do it on a "best of breed" platform for that game.

TurkishPoptart · 3 years ago
Substack has no paywalls, and Medium does. Makes sense why they took over.
reilly3000 · 3 years ago
Substack is literally a paywall as a service platform for indie writers.