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Posted by u/Pooge 3 years ago
Tell HN: YouTube's web UI just got even worse
The only two possible filters on the list of videos of a channel now are most recent and most popular.

I know it's a small thing but somehow this hits me really hard.

Also, there's less videos on a single row now. Because we can't read more than that without our attention span going poof.

dpedu · 3 years ago
On youtube's desktop site, I've also noticed that sometime within the last couple months the home page no longer shows the duration of videos when the page loads. After 3-6 seconds, the timestamps pop in. I don't know if this is intentionally or a result of lazy-loading - but seeing that the video thumb, title, author, view count, and age all load instantly with the page, I struggle to come up with a reason it could be unintentional.

This bothers me because I like to know how long a video is before I commit the time to sitting down and watching it. This feels like an attempt at a dark pattern with the intent to improve metrics - surely watch time is a metric youtube cares about.

Octabrain · 3 years ago
Another thing I've noticed in Youtube on the smart™ TV, is that the app does not adapt the suggestions based on previous searches anymore. Now it's almost entirely generic crap all the time (Seriously, I am so sick of those thumbnails with the surprise face. I hate them!)

Between the ads and the poor content, I feel like Youtube is pushing hard to become the new public TV.

weare138 · 3 years ago
It's not just you. Mozilla ran a study recently and found user content controls on YouTube such as the 'Like' and 'Dislike' buttons are largely useless and have no effect on what we're recommended.

https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/research/library/user-cont...

spikej · 3 years ago
Same with the 3 dots that show extra options like saving to playlist. They pop in after the rest of the site has loaded.
bavell · 3 years ago
They also have a tiny hotbox which encourages misclicks (trying to click "Not Interested" but whoopsie, another view on that video!). Dark patterns galore.

Edit: looks like the dots are 40x40px on desktop

RealStickman_ · 3 years ago
And sometimes the save to playlist is a separate button while at other times it's hidden behind the dots. I've had to cancel countless clips from misclicking. (Multiple times in a row even)
gs17 · 3 years ago
My timestamps don't pop in, they're either there immediately or never show up. It's very frustrating, since I also decide what to watch based on them.
staindk · 3 years ago
Could be your adblocker sometimes blocking them, other times not?

Though it probably is some bug or... rapid A/B testing thing Google has going on.

dom96 · 3 years ago
yeah, I've noticed that timestamp thing as well. Super annoying.
petargyurov · 3 years ago
Has anyone experienced a bug with navigating back from a video? It's been happening for months now but it's on and off.

When you're watching a video and you go back, the url updates but the page doesn't refresh/redirect, the video just ends up restarting. Very annoying.

dilap · 3 years ago
Yep, it's completely jacked. Very annoying. Of course, back in Twitter also randomly loses your place, too. I guess it's one of those "we're a big deal site now" checklist items: Fuck up the back button.
dieselgate · 3 years ago
In regards to what you’ve mentioned about hitting back on Twitter and losing your scroll position - I think this is a difficult technical problem so solve in an elegant and reproducible way. We’ve attempted to address this back location issue at my work for an “infinite scroll” feature and can only get it right about half the time and believe that’s handled mostly by the browser. We’ve specifically looked at how YouTube handles this - and it’s about the same success rate for them.

Oh well even HN will always mess up your scroll position when hitting back so it goes

tiluha · 3 years ago
Yes, that is very annoying. In general YouTubes UX is getting worse constantly. They moved the read more button for video descriptions up and to the right directly behind the end of the description text, which makes it almost completely invisible. Even now that i know where to look, it is still very hard to find. The like button is now only an outline, which is filled when active. I find this confusing, which lead to me unliking and reliking a video because i could not determine the state of the button visually. Was never a problem, back when the thimb turned blue. The site is quite sluggish in general, at least for me.

Overall YouTube makes for a nice example of how modern design often makes the experience worse

phs2501 · 3 years ago
I've seen the new "read more" button sometimes actually completely be invisible... it'll come back if I force a re-layout (i.e. resizing the browser).

But yeah the new design is pretty awful. No idea what they were thinking.

EarthIsHome · 3 years ago
This happens to me. I never realized that anything happened and that the URL changed, which means I would naturally click the back button again, and it takes me to the previous-previous page (which is usually a new tab for me). It's very frustrating.

Edit: this happens on Firefox on Windows. I haven't tried Chrome.

ravenstine · 3 years ago
Yes. There's all sorts of bugs. The buggiest thing is the queue. Each time they fix a bug it seems other weirdness pops up. Having built a similar queue for the web UI of a music streaming app, I know it can be complicated, but surely it can't be this complicated. For a while it was unusable for me because I like building a queue and reordering the items, and sorting didn't work at all. The queue should be one of the primary things that automated tests and QA should be able to track pretty easily and be treated as first class.
a9h74j · 3 years ago
I've harbored a thought which, incidentally, might also be more reliably testable for QA. Rather than rely upon drag-and-drop for reordering queue entries, provide explicit move-up and move-down performing small buttons, one pair per visible queue entry. Of course, drag-and-drop might be considered visually cleaner (no visual affordances) and allow for move-by-several-slots larger motions. Would that the current YT UI actually allow drag-and-drop-between to work as expected.
peppertree · 3 years ago
Yes happens consistently with Safari. I guess YouTube engineers only test on Chrome ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
pueblito · 3 years ago
‘member when YouTube intentionally put a bug in their site to mess with MS?
smrq · 3 years ago
Yep. Firefox (seems to be a pattern in the replies). Back-back-forward every time on YouTube now. It's terrible.
TremendousJudge · 3 years ago
or back -> ctrl+L -> return
johtso · 3 years ago
This has been driving me mad.. I'm pretty sure I only started seeing this problem maybe a month ago? It's the cardinal sin. Don't break the back button!
NeveHanter · 3 years ago
Yeah, same problem on Firefox, I've thought that this may be because of one of the extensions I use, but after disabling everything it was still happening...
alpaca128 · 3 years ago
Yes, also there's been a bug in comment textfields for at least 3 years: press enter twice in a row and the cursor won't move to the next line.
eastbound · 3 years ago
Same problems in Jira: Start typing a comment, and it watches the issue or change issue, because keyboard navigation isn’t disabled while in a field.

But press Cmd+K to reach the address bar, or Cmd+W to close the tab: Nothing happens because Jira hijacks the keyboard.

It’s the big site challenge: Wreck the user experience and watch people who keep using it because they have to.

mijamo · 3 years ago
On a different note I have encountered a bug where I reach a page with a video title and description but the video being played does not match and is instead from another one. I think it has happened especially after going to a full page video from the homepage when there is a video in the mini-view being played and about to switch.
Tanoc · 3 years ago
A few years ago a friend and I were debugging a website he'd built that scraped data from Youtube, reorganized it, and built a web page that automatically categorized and assigned metadata to it. It was quite effective, and got more traffic than he expected, but it's value came in how it shed light on all sorts of bugs Youtube has.

One of the things we discovered is that Youtube actually runs from three content delivery networks who all have to agree on what data is to be displayed. The user data, such as your profile, watch history, and subscriptions, are in the first CDN. The video description, title, and comments attached to the video are in the second. The video itself and related data such as ad placement, categorization, and closed captions, are on a third CDN.

If the CDNs don't agree or one doesn't get updated in time before the page draws itself, you get mismatched descriptions/titles, mismatched comments, or some of the strangeness people have noticed where the timeline "watched" preview in the thumbnail is wrong by showing the user stopped watching earlier in the video than they actually did.

geo-matik · 3 years ago
Happened to me as well, now I click the search button to go back.
phs2501 · 3 years ago
Yep. On Firefox, haven't tried on other browsers. At this point I just hit "back, back, forward" without thinking about it when I see it happen.
dymk · 3 years ago
Yes, I run into this all the time in Firefox
NabiDev · 3 years ago
I don't know how it relates, but that bug seems resolved on wayland.
crazygringo · 3 years ago
> The only two possible filters on the list of videos of a channel now are most recent and most popular.

Isn't that all there's ever been? Just chronological and popularity? This post isn't very helpful unless you say what you think has been removed. (I, for one, have always wished for most popular over the last 30 days, but oh well.)

> Also, there's less videos on a single row now.

You're going to have to tell us how many there were before and how many there are now. I'm not seeing any difference. It also depends -- are you talking about the home page? Channel home page? Channel videos tab? Because they all act differently.

Are you sure you just haven't changed your zoom settings or something? Or your window width?

jasode · 3 years ago
>Isn't that all there's ever been? Just chronological and popularity?

Youtube old UI "SORT BY" option had "Date added (oldest)" : https://imgur.com/a/9czAAiv

Youtube new UI removed "oldest" option and only has "Recently uploaded" : https://imgur.com/a/aSAhxLC

(Apparently, the new javascript for Youtube hasn't propagated to all worldwide servers yet which is why I was able to get screenshots of both the old & new UI by using different computers.)

varun_ch · 3 years ago
Google does a lot of A/B testing, called Experiments. YouTube has some cool tools for QA testing those experiments...

This redesign is being A/B tested (with high percentages of users it's rolled out to). It comes in different parts, so if you clear your cookies and reload you can be reassigned a bucket and therefore see slightly different interfaces.

Bonus: I think the redesign is called called Amsterdam, don't quote me on that though...

dartharva · 3 years ago
There was an "oldest" filter too. Especially necessary for today's YouTube for us to revisit channels that once used to be good but then gradually fell into dark patterns like everyone else in the industry.
swyx · 3 years ago
you can add it back in since it just takes a url param. (until they break this too of course)

https://github.com/sw-yx/youtube-browser-extension

ricardobayes · 3 years ago
Good product design is not based on personal preferences, it's data/usage-driven. Having an unused feature is bloat that takes away important dev/QA resources.
animal_spirits · 3 years ago
You used to be able to filter by oldest to newest which doesn't look possible anymore
happyopossum · 3 years ago
Err, that’s sorting - not filtering. And I’m staring at a YouTube channel right now and the sort options are:

Most Popular Date added (oldest) Date added (newest)

jjice · 3 years ago
Was it there recently for you? I hadn't seen that option on a channel's list of videos for what must be years now.
iampuero · 3 years ago
I appreciated this comment, especially since this article is currently near to the top of HN at the same time: https://www.karlsutt.com/articles/communicating-effectively-...
petargyurov · 3 years ago
Am I the only one who uses YouTube like this:

* Only go on the Subscriptions page; I've never once visited the "Home" page

* Blocked the Recommended Videos sidebar using uBlock

* Use SponsorBlock

* Use uBO filters to remove Shorts from Subscriptions page

I come to watch what I want, not get all the clickbait on the side.

groovybits · 3 years ago
Personally, the majority of my Home page are videos from my subscribed channels. I get the occasional suggestions for related content from other channels, but I'd say 8/10 times the suggestions are good ones for me.

My typical usage is:

* Go to Home page * Add highly relevant videos to my Watch Later playlist * View the videos from Watch Later, like/dislike as appropriate * Rinse and repeat

I'm trying to give Shorts a shot. I particularly like them for viewing podcast shorts, but I've noticed the suggestions are taking a longer time to give me 'relevant' videos. Some of the Shorts are totally random, while others are from my Subscribed channels. I make sure to like/dislike as appropriate, and I've noticed a slight improvement in a week's time.

Kubuxu · 3 years ago
There is one primary reason why I don’t watch shorts, you cannot adjust speed of them (I watch most YT at 2.5x speed).
snird · 3 years ago
Yes, you probably are one of a tiny group.

Youtube power is in its recommendation engine. I discovered amazing content through this engine. You say you come to watch what you want, but how do you initially fill the "subscription" page without exploring first?

There can be various levels of exploring. Maybe visiting the home page only once a month. But the distribution capabilities are what makes Youtube what it is.

burkaman · 3 years ago
I use Youtube as more of a delivery channel than a platform, kind of like podcasts. I listen to a fair number of podcasts and to be honest I have no idea where I found most of them, I guess word of mouth? Or maybe linked from some article I read a long time ago? It definitely wasn't from any recommendations engine, although my podcast app does have a "Browse" section that I've never used.

I don't think it's necessarily bad to use the automated recommendations but there are certainly other ways to discover new content.

kevincox · 3 years ago
The recommendations for me are trash. They are 50% videos that I have watched and 40% videos that I have had recommended and scrolled past before. Most of the 10% of new stuff is just clickbait trash.

Every once in a while after scrolling for a while it gives me a "Want something new?" link and then the recommendations are fanatic but that feed has no bookmarkable URL or reliable way to get to it.

antisthenes · 3 years ago
> I discovered amazing content through this engine

Did you actually discover it through youtube's algorithms and discovery engine or was it linked to you by friends and you simply watched it on Youtube?

These are completely different things in this context.

> But the distribution capabilities are what makes Youtube what it is.

Hold on, I thought it was the recommendation engine? Which is it? Distribution is about economies of scale and good engineering, recommendation is about putting the user first, rather than monetization.

naikrovek · 3 years ago
agree. a lot of people I've known who say "there is nothing good on YouTube" either ignore or outright block recommended videos from showing up. there are centuries of videos worth watching on YouTube, and the more you tell YouTube what you like (by watching) the better it gets at recommending things you like.
HWR_14 · 3 years ago
Is the recommendation engine more than just "Currently watching X - people who watch X usually watch Y next"?

I say that because, as someone who does not sign into YouTube, I have no idea if it gets more complex.

thewebcount · 3 years ago
I use it like this:

* Never go to https://youtube.com to find anything. Only go to YouTube when it's a known link you found on another site. I don't need recommendations or ads

* Copy the URL, paste it into yt-dlp

* Wait a few seconds for the video to download and watch it in my viewer of choice with no crap attached.

opan · 3 years ago
To add to this, you can directly play stuff in mpv if yt-dlp is installed and in your PATH.

Combine this with a window manager shortcut to open the clipboard contents in mpv and the experience is pretty slick.

You can also dump the URLs in a .m3u file and watch a bunch in a row with mpv that way.

blfr · 3 years ago
I use SponsorBlock and uBlock quite heavily but you're missing out on Home. The recommendations are surprisingly good.

For me, it basically takes a guess what topics and themes I find interesting and pulls content around them. Automatic notifications are also pretty good.

YouTube figured out that I like interviews on a certain channel and nothing else, or Ukraine war updates from another channel but not their regular content. Probably through simple similar audience trick but solid selection nevertheless.

For whatever reason, it cannot apply this knowledge to shorts which are dreadfully bad.

lovingCranberry · 3 years ago
I find the recommendations genuinely horrible. I only get channels like real life lore, Adam Something etc, with sometimes very shallow takes at politics. And after marking those channels with "I don't want to see this", I get their hundreds of copycats.

I mostly watch channels like Aswath Damodaran, mCoding, etc., which are not related to the contents of the mentioned channels at all, yet their recommendation engine still shows me all this stuff.

spookthesunset · 3 years ago
> Ukraine war updates from another channel but not their regular content

Speaking of search and YouTube UI… are you talking about that veteran guy who occasionally does coverage on Ukraine but keeps a level head. He will often point out why it is important to think about why your enemy is doing what it is doing. And he uses some open source map to show what is going on?

…and the rest of his content seems to be reviews of military related things, or something else that has nothing to do with Ukraine?

Cause yeah I’m subscribed to that guy, I think… but I totally forget what his channel is and don’t seem to be getting any recommendations for his videos anymore.

HurdsTimesNear · 3 years ago
You can watch all your youtubes on vlc: just press open network stream and copy paste the link. this gives you more features through vlc than you can shake a stick at...
pjc50 · 3 years ago
I'm the other way round: I _do_ use the recommendation engine, but I click "not interested" on anything that isn't a music video and make sure to only have music videos in my likes. Oh and of course adblock. Newpipe for mobile.

This works OK, although it tends to promote the same things over and over, seemingly at random.

kevincox · 3 years ago
I'm not as extreme, but >90% of my YouTube watching is via the channel RSS feeds (which I get sent to my email and filtered into "Videos" and "Videos Background" folders). Then 10% of the time if I am out of subscribed videos and want to see something new I scroll the homepage. I find that I rarely appreciate the recommendations below the videos but sometimes the homepage is ok.
justnotworthit · 3 years ago
Set aside the custom uBO filters and add "Remove Youtube Suggestions" to your arsenal. You can block a huge array of UI elements.

I too only do subscriptions, watch everything my subscribed channels put out by placing them in my playlists (custom watch later lists for attention spans/activies), and only find other channels through my current channels. If you don't watch everything from specific channels (some big ones really pump them out), I recommend PocketTube's Subscription manger (and playlist manager).

Youtube hates us. It takes away tools for us to watch how you and I want, and refuses to add basic tools to playlists like "removed all watched" and "sort by length". I'm subscribed "watch later" still exists. They want you to just watch "recommended" videos one after the other like tik-tok-television.

cortesoft · 3 years ago
My only interaction with youtube is clicking on a link from another site, or searching for something on google and clicking on the link from their. I never navigate within youtube, nor click on any other videos.
_jal · 3 years ago
Don't forget dismissing the ads, and then the login nag, and then ad to subscribe, so the video is actually visible.

...all of which serve to remind me what a pit of suck the service is, and ensure I never subscribe.

And the cycle of life is complete.

dymk · 3 years ago
It might be because I've got a large and diverse enough set of channel subscriptions, but the Home page is surprisingly good at recommending good quality new channels and videos.

I don't think I could use YT without SponsorBlock and uBO. The SponsorBlock outage of the last few days really made me aware how much time is wasted on those sponsored segments, intro reels, and interaction reminders.

I love it when videos have a SB "skip to highlight" timestamp -that 10 minute video of the creator rambling on and on is now a 10 second video of the slow-motion moneyshot.

kevinfiol · 3 years ago
Nope! I did almost exactly what you described before ejecting altogether and consuming my subscriptions via RSS + a static site I generate hourly (linked in a top-level comment).

I recognize that people value YouTube for it's recommendation engine. That was never the draw for me; I just want a place to watch videos from creators I like. Overall, I found the recommendations to not work for me; they were overall noisy and distracting. Someone asked me once "well how do you find new content?", which I found hilarious.

aquir · 3 years ago
How can you block Shorts using uBO? Tried a few methods but none of them worked!
ClassyJacket · 3 years ago
YouTube is also unbearable without Clickbait Remover For Youtube. It changes the thumbnails to a frame from the video.

Linus' channel is particularly horrible without this.

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-GB/firefox/addon/clickbait-rem...

yewenjie · 3 years ago
Ah! This is very useful. I hate those over-the-top expressions in the thumbnails.
dont__panic · 3 years ago
You go to the subscriptions page? I've been subscribed to channel RSS feeds for a year or so now, never even go to YouTube to "browse" because the interface is so awful.

I'd like to figure out how to filter Shorts from my RSS feeds, but my preferred channels almost never use them so it hasn't been a big deal. The only other annoyance is live streams, which seem to debut on my RSS feed several hours before they're actually live (with no clear information about the "live-iness" of the video).

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princevegeta89 · 3 years ago
"Try YouTube TV. "

This popup always shows up in my account no matter how many times I dismiss it. Very annoying.

Any way to remove this with uBO? I tried a few ways but it ended up not working well

garblegarble · 3 years ago
Related: what I've been doing with the incessant "we need your consent" popups on incognito tabs is to write a tampermonkey script that on page load searches and auto-clicks the refuse / dismiss button, the same approach might work for your issue? Crazy this is the sort of nonsense we have to resort to in order to make Google products usable...
SoftTalker · 3 years ago
Did they ever fix the problem that prevented having both a YouTube Premium and YouTube TV subscription on the same account?
jrmann100 · 3 years ago
An extra shoutout to "DF Tube (Distraction Free)" extensions[0] which have some of those UI zappers pre-programmed.

I use YouTube like this! Definitely going to implement some of your suggestions.

[0]: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/df-tube-distractio...

jeanlucdebran · 3 years ago
.. and in addition, why not use yt-dlp (or similar) to watch without the zillion ads and in full control of when and what you consume?
HurdsTimesNear · 3 years ago
I block out all comments. Those are likely all bots or people indistinguishable from bots, I use grease monkey and a javascript script to block it out, I also use another one to be able to increase the playback speed beyond the arbitrary 2x limit.

But getting the clean google-videos layout which was just a video player and a search bar can be done entirely with ublock :D

naikrovek · 3 years ago
> I block out all comments. Those are likely all bots or people indistinguishable from bots

definitely not. there are very few bots in YouTube comments these days, though there certainly are some.

there is a LOT of brown-nosing, though.

I don't watch ultra-popular stuff, so what I see is different from what you will see, necessarily.

dmitriid · 3 years ago
Depends on the video. In DiabloLOL series there will always be someone breaking down all references second by second.

In gameplay and game streaming videos you'll find useful tidbits and hints on how to play a game.

etc.

forgotmypw17 · 3 years ago
I blocked the domain which serves thumbnail images.

Pages are amazingly clean now.

When I mouseover a video with an interesting title, the preview appears.

wingerlang · 3 years ago
Seems excessive IMO. Many videos have good thumbnails, better than the titles.
andreyk · 3 years ago
I also usually watch from subscriptions (I am subscribed to 100s of channels). But I do like the home page and recommendations for discovering new channels! In my experience it actually captures what I like to watch a lot (perhaps because I subscribe to a lot of stuff and like many videos).
jcpst · 3 years ago
This is interesting to me- I'm curious to hear how people use it. I do one of two things:

- search duckduckgo, go to the "videos" tab, then I end up on youtube if that's where the video is.

- go to youtube.com, use the search, pick the video.

- I don't ever like/subscribe/comment on anything.

godshatter · 3 years ago
I follow a link from a local page of bookmarks I curate usually into a creators videos tab using firefox in private mode. I don't log in ever. I might click on some recommended videos in the sidebar, but a handful of videos later and the recommendations have jumped the shark and it's time to open a new window. If I happen on a new creator, I add a link to their videos tab on their main page to my list of bookmarks.
augustuspolius · 3 years ago
I have removed all feeds from the homepage, all recommended feeds, all comments, all video overlays with uBO. History is disabled, watch later hidden. I hardly ever use search directly on YT.

The easiest way for me not to get consumed by trash is to proactively hide it. I leaned that I have low self control when it comes to data consumption, so I block everything I identify as dangerous.

marssaxman · 3 years ago
Same for me. In addition, I exclusively browse YouTube in a private window, so they will have a harder time trying to compile a profile of my interests.
HurdsTimesNear · 3 years ago
do this instead:

site:youtube.com <your_searchterm>

BitwiseFool · 3 years ago
I do all of the above, except the Shorts filter because I didn't know how to do that. Would you be willing to share this?

YouTube is so much better when you remove all the little overlays and dark-patterns meant to get you to watch something else at all times.

poetril · 3 years ago
This is exactly how I browse as well. I have uBlock hiding all links that could possibly lead me to the home page, as well the sidebar, and post video recommendations. The only content I consume is from the 'Subscriptions' page.
Pmop · 3 years ago
I do the same thing. I also have search/watch history turned off.
kleer001 · 3 years ago
I don't. I'm so off the chart in personality trait openness I have to see new stuff all the time. And not just any new stuff. It's annoying.
Test0129 · 3 years ago
The problem I have is that I dont have a Google account. So I basically can't even use the website except through the recommender.
aendruk · 3 years ago
> Only go on the Subscriptions page

For this I just use the web feeds. Creators are free to hop platforms and my workflow won’t need to change.

tiborsaas · 3 years ago
With this many extensions you could write your own frontend :)
timbit42 · 3 years ago
Like NewPipe?
lalopalota · 3 years ago
Enhancer for Youtube lets me setup the UI the way I like it.
mrkramer · 3 years ago
People at Google don't use Google products, YouTube in particular. It is quite astonishing that so many features are nonsense or not yet implemented. Why I can't search comments in comments section of a video; if a video has 100+ or 1 000+ comments I can't easily find comments that are relevant to me. Why I can't search my playlist videos and my liked videos; I have 1 000+ liked videos and 1 000+ videos in my Watch Later playlist. Maybe I'm disorganized with Watch Later playlist but I'm also a power user which is not satisfied with only casual features. Any yea you can't sort channel videos like you use to(Newest, Oldest, Most Popular). Like you said it's now only Most recent and Most popular. And one thing that I almost forgot, in Web version of YouTube you can search channel for videos and in native mobile app you can't search channel for videos. When I say search channel for videos I mean query with keywords(there is no Search Bar within Channel page or within Videos tab).
numinos1 · 3 years ago
YouTube is slowly transitioning from a UGC video marketplace into a modern version of cable tv. These technical oversights aren't bugs. They're a deliberate effort to shape user behavior and maximize advertising revenue. Old content is a liability and is slowly being deprecated from the system.
bavell · 3 years ago
My pet theory is that they only implement features which are lightweight enough to not cause significant load on their backend and if it does then the feature dies right there, no matter how useful. Extreme cost-focused tunnel vision.
mrkramer · 3 years ago
But it doesn't make sense when you know that they have billions in cash sitting in bank waiting to be spend. They have the money and the knowledge to implement whatever feature they need to. Backend load and infrastructure scale is not a problem at this point. My somewhat simple explanation is; Google wants to cater to the casual crowd so hard to the point of sacrificing user experience for advanced users or power users who use YouTube every day. They rather prefer status quo than try to bother with more advanced features. But I have to admit, they already have some pretty advanced features but they need to keep pushing.
togs · 3 years ago
They took away 'sort by new' for mobile users (most users), which means most users won't see (possibly valid) critical comments anymore. Remember 'YouTube comments' meme existing because the comments were just that bad.

It's a pattern of 'don't restrict, just make it less convenient to use'.

andybak · 3 years ago
Why is there such a mania for reducing sort/finest options?

They carry such a small cognitive load and are of immense value to many, many use cases.

Who decides these things?

bakugo · 3 years ago
Because allowing users to control how they use the platform is not viable in today's world.

From an engagement standpoint, the ideal Youtube is one where you can't actually view a list of videos from a specific channel at all. Or search for videos. Or anything really that isn't just watching whatever set of videos the algorithm thinks will maximize your engagement at that time.

The web in general is moving in this direction at a fast pace and the cause for all of this is one thing: phones. That's it. There's an increasingly massive number of people that spend hours a day staring at their phones mindlessly scrolling through tiktok, twitter, etc. to waste their time away when they have nothing better to do, simply consuming whatever content is fed to them, giving absolutely no thought to what they're seeing beyond how much it entertains them in that moment. They don't want to look for specific videos, they don't want to watch a specific channel, they just want to be kept busy by an algorithm. These people are insanely easy to please and will consume for hours at a time, watching plenty of ads. The more people start behaving like this, the more money these platforms make.

fsflover · 3 years ago
> The web in general is moving in this direction at a fast pace

True, with an exception of Mastodon, PeerTube, Matrix and other distributed networks based on free software.

zeroonetwothree · 3 years ago
Sounds like you are describing the typical HN reader
brezelgoring · 3 years ago
I read here in HN (whatever that means to you) that Product Owners in the Youtube team have an incentive to improve certain metrics if they ever want to be promoted.

I can imagine a "Watch Later" product owner thinking that if he removes a certain control, he can game the stats and say the feature is seeing more use - securing his promotion.

We see this in public administration all the time, no reason to think private enterprise would be any different.

ricardobayes · 3 years ago
I wonder how do product owners get assigned to features, in this case. Is it 'musical chairs'? Or at random?
conductr · 3 years ago
Tend to agree. Given the actor, I'd bet they want you to search multiple times instead of search once and play with filters. They want you to feel lost so you are forced to search.

Having written that, I realize my YT usage is fairly low on search and I feel myself being forced towards it more and more in recent months/years.

pas · 3 years ago
okay, but who owns filters and search and whatnot? nobody? oh, okay.
vezycash · 3 years ago
> why is there such a mania for reducing sort/finest options

Apple started the minimalist, option hiding, functionality axing, 1984-ish control freak movement. They even got away with selling phones without chargers, making $40 billion on lightning cables sales.

Just blame Apple.

augustuspolius · 3 years ago
Not everything is a conspiracy to make more money.

I don’t know a single person in my bubble who needs more lightning cables. I have a dozen unused lightning cables already laying around.

I threw away every pair of headphones that came with an iPhone I have ever bought. Most of mini/micro usb cables that come with small electronics go into trash - I do not need more cables!

yreg · 3 years ago
>making $40 billion on lightning cables sales

Someone commented this yesterday but the calculation was crap. What source do you have?

Kye · 3 years ago
They still come with a Lightning to USB-C cable. I plug it into my laptop when I need a quick charge and use my existing lower power Lightning charger when I don't.
cmrdporcupine · 3 years ago
I think it in large part comes down to how the performance assessment process manages PMs at an org like Google. When you're measured at work on your success in 'launching' things, and the evaluation metric comes down to your personal idea authorship and impact generated, there's a profound need to extinguish other paths. An incremental improvement is insufficient, you need to have launched / authored / designed, and provided personal outsized impact. Or as an engineer, played some leading role in making this vision reality. The organization as a whole is constantly on the hunt for these units of work, because the internal metrics encourages this. X launched and replaces Y is a good story to tell the promo committee. Iterating on someone else's design is career suicide.
HurdsTimesNear · 3 years ago
What do you do if you are in such org and your idea-less manager not only steals all your ideas but also sabotages you to the point where you never get to implement anything yourself?

Are there books on how to play the game?

ravenstine · 3 years ago
They probably ran an A/B test and whomever is in charge at YouTube was thrilled that the B test resulted in people clicking around more. Engagement!
ssalka · 3 years ago
To many, a simpler product is more appealing to a greater number of users. I feel like the idea of "convention over configuration" went to an unnatural extreme in the world of product design - every choice you give a user is an admission that you as the creator of the app don't know what the user wants in this particular case, and you have to let them tell you. For this reason, you may want to stick to what you know.

At the same time, there is some pipe dream that the app can just give the user a 100% ideal experience with virtually no input on the user's part. What this really means is less optionality for users who want it.

Lastly, in any company there are going to be people fighting against complexity to keep things maintainable, scalable etc. The product gets sacrificed for the organization.

gsich · 3 years ago
Designers gonna design. Even if it's a stupid mess. I wonder why nobody from Google ever shows up when there is negative feedback.

On that hand: Google never cares about feedback, you can't submit it, if you can it gets ignored.

augustuspolius · 3 years ago
Not sure if you work with designers. They are not some isolated partially insane org in most tech companies. Decisions like that likely start with a PM, get reviewed, then eng reviewed, then they run an experiment and confirm a hypothesis. None of that involves going to HN to seek feedback. Should they ignore an engagement increases of 3% because someone has stern feedback? That’s just not the reality of tech.

Personally, I hardly use YouTube unless I follow a direct link. I have also disabled all feeds, comments, and suggestions using uBlock Origin.

truemotive · 3 years ago
If it’s no longer an option, the platform can now control that lever with no indication of why. See how Facebook sorts the news feed for you? Oh, it doesn’t? That used to be a user option right up top.
gsich · 3 years ago
/?sk=h_chr still works maybe
nabakin · 3 years ago
My best, charitable guess is that their goal is to make YouTube as easy to use and low-friction as possible for anyone. For all of us here, using technology is second nature, but for a lot of people, especially in 3rd world countries where I imagine YouTube is expanding, adding another button means adding a nontrivial mental overhead for those people
wahnfrieden · 3 years ago
Usually bottom line efficiency (less surface area to maintain, fewer staff needed etc) drives action more than a long tail of user value. Don’t ask about use case value ask about business value. Don’t like it, well I agree but don’t be surprised that companies aren’t a project to deliver value to humanity.
HurdsTimesNear · 3 years ago
People who's search term history looks like this:

<funny videos> <cats> <harry styles new gf> <steroid cycle> <apple or pc>

eurasiantiger · 3 years ago
More data = bigger indexes = much much more complexity and cost involved in simple filtering.

Dead Comment

seydor · 3 years ago
This has been going downhill for a while. I don't know if YT engineers actually use the website. Below a certain screen width the date of the video just disappears from view. The video description becomes crammed to the side and is unreadable, with the "more" link rendering on top of the text. This seems to be (??) intentional behavior, why?

search has also become ... rather stupid? it shows a few results and then some irrelevant "recommendations"

Also would be nice if they stopped pushing shorts so hard. Why does youtube want to become tiktok, that is offensive to both users and creators, becayse YT has a distinct use case

wongarsu · 3 years ago
The push for shorts is somewhat ironic, because Youtube used to have lots of short videos in the early days. But then Youtube pushed everyone to inflate their video lengths, first with a recommendation algorithm that rewarded watch time, then with monetization that rewarded videos over 10 minutes (now 8 minutes). It took TikTok's success to show Youtube that users might like shorter videos.

But I'm not sure where Youtube is actually going with this. There's now "normal Youtube", "Shorts" and "Live" coexisting on the same platform, along with Premium exclusives and Youtube Music. All of them integrated somewhat awkwardly.

Micoloth · 3 years ago
Yes thanks! The date of video disappearing is so maddening. It is so blatantly, obviously bad design that is beyond me how that could ever have happened.

Also agree with the sibling comment that youtube was _full_ of fun short videos, but they are Not for some reasons counted as shorts, and now there is this situation of channels with yers-old catalogues of short videos, except the newest ones are “shorts” and the oldest ones in exactly the same style are “just videos”.

???

jraph · 3 years ago
Invidious is an acceptable interface to YouTube.

Some things are missing, like searching and queuing videos while watching one (I guess adding this feature could be a weekend project), but there's no ads, you can listen to video without downloading the video part, it does not stop after a while, and is quite lightweight. You can subscribe to channels and there's no magic happening in the videos you actually see, nor any need for a Google account. The information density is correct. You don't wait before a skeleton while the interface loads, because it's instant. SponsorBlock works with it too.

I can recommend. It might not be very sexy, but its interface design is not driven by commercial reasons and does not follow the oversimplification trend.

rexreed · 3 years ago
I am a big user of Invidious as well. The biggest issue is the lack of subtitling, especially foreign language subtitles. Also, the lack of playlist support. Those things often force me back to YouTube when I need to view a video with english language subtitles. Is there any way to get subtitles into the Invidious interface?
onemoresoop · 3 years ago
Likewise, I recommend Invidious, it's clean and sane. There are a lot of things missing but that's a feature not a bug.