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jmyeet · 3 years ago
The returns that capital demands (and the government obliges to) are ultimately unsustainable. That's the core problem here.

Rising wages? There has been no meaningful real increase in wages in 40 years despite a massive increase in productivity. Profits keep going up and up. The expectations for profits keep going up. The problem here is that the people who make companies possible don't get to share in the proceeds of what they contribute to.

Rising wages and lower profits would actually represent in workers actually getting an actual real increase in wages and getting a greater share in the fruits of their labor. But no, that's unacceptable. We have to raise prices to maintain the profits and effectively erode those wage increases.

The real failure here is the government.

Take rising energy prices. The government could take action to hasten development of existing leases and/or restrict the export of refined petroleum products. Oil hasn't gotten more expensive to produce. Oil and gas companies are simply raking in massive profits.

What we actually need is a system like Norway where we don't simply give away natural resources like this for private investors to profit off. At least in Norway, the government is making a ton of revenue from the increased prices, which it can direct back to people who need it.

Housing? Shelter is or should be a human right. What we're allowing to happen here through investors buying up housing stock (and jacking up the prices), second homes, AirBnB and so on has reached the point of being a human rights violation IMHO. Also those skyrocketing rents do even more to erode the income of particularly lower income people to keep them living paycheck to paycheck.

This is modern serfdom in action. The government acts at the behest of the capital-owning class regardless of party and part of that is having a compliant labor pool. This is turning into the West's version of Pakistan's brick kilns.

After going into massive debt for college, having to pay a huge amount for your car, gas and rent and so on, you're absolutely showing up to work. That's the point.

A budget shortfall is built into your existence.

whiplash451 · 3 years ago
The Norway example is really annoying. It keeps coming back as an example to follow, when everybody knows it is a complete outlier that cannot be reproduced elsewhere.

Norway is sitting on a gigantic pile of offshore gas that it uses to generate massive profits that go into a huge fund they don't know what to do with, all of that for a 5M population that drowns into social programs.

There is literally no country in the world that has this ratio of natural resources $ / capita.

Yet, when you look at what Norway has actually produced over the past few decades in terms of innovation, companies, etc. the picture is very, very empty.

jmyeet · 3 years ago
The US government only takes a 12.5% royalty on profits from oil and gas extraction on public land [1]. Norway has a petroleum tax of 27% and a special tax of 51% for a total of 78% [2] in comparison.

While we would generate less tax revenue per capita than Norway would, that's not the point. The point is the state should take a much larger share of the profits of extracting natural resources that state owns.

[1]: https://www.americanprogress.org/article/federal-oil-and-gas...

[2]: https://www2.deloitte.com/content/dam/Deloitte/global/Docume...

diydsp · 3 years ago
> complete outlier

Norway may be at the far end of the spectrum, but it's not black and white. Most countries have resources and very few share them with their citizens. It's not just to be born into a system where an incumbent oligarchy has control of resources. That kind of modern realpolitik doesn't develop any kind of civic duty or pride.

onlyrealcuzzo · 3 years ago
> Norway is sitting on a gigantic pile of offshore gas that it uses to generate massive profits that go into a huge fund they don't know what to do with, all of that for a 5M population that drowns into social programs.

Source: https://www.norskpetroleum.no/en/production-and-exports/expo...

Norway EXPORTS about $80Bn worth of oil & gas per year. Which is about $14,800 per capita.

danaris · 3 years ago
> Yet, when you look at what Norway has actually produced over the past few decades in terms of innovation, companies, etc. the picture is very, very empty.

I don't agree with this being used as a primary metric for determining the worth of a nation or the value of its policies.

The #1 priority of a country should be the well-being of its people. Not "of its wealthiest"; not "of its economy". The well-being of all its people.

Norway is, last I knew, consistently among the happiest countries on Earth. I think that's a far, far more meaningful metric than "how many new ways to part people from their money have they come up with?"

(Now, I think there's a reasonable argument to be made with respect to things like basic scientific research, improved green technologies and other advances toward ending climate change, etc—particularly since that's vitally important for every nation's long-term well-being. But that's not at all the same thing as "innovation, companies, etc".)

Seanambers · 3 years ago
In Norway the state is rich. The people not so much. Best way for Norwegians to feel rich is to travel abroad.
aaaaaaaaata · 3 years ago
> innovation, companies, etc.

Not foisting Uber on the world is a strength, not a weakness...

Being stable, taking care of your own stuff, that's strength.

Your idea of a strong economy has its foundations in a growth-only myth that has caused all of the issues we see before us.

bbddg · 3 years ago
Yeah it's too bad the US is such a poor country with no natural resources.
yowzadave · 3 years ago
Here's a nice little report talking about some of the state-led innovation going on in Nordic countries: https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/projects/nordic-state-i...

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bbddg · 3 years ago
> Yet, when you look at what Norway has actually produced over the past few decades in terms of innovation, companies, etc. the picture is very, very empty.

Do you have anything to back this claim up? Most of what I've searched about the Nordic countries in terms of innovation seems to disagree with this assertion.

https://voxeu.org/article/nordic-innovation-cuddly-capitalis...https://www.ft.com/content/e3c15066-cd77-11e4-9144-00144feab...https://www.globalinnovationindex.org/analysis-indicator

ren_engineer · 3 years ago
>Oil hasn't gotten more expensive to produce

a huge chunk of oil has been taken off the global market and refining capacity can't be increased instantly

>After going into massive debt for college

college used to possible to be paid for with a part time job before the government started handing out loans which jacked up prices

maxerickson · 3 years ago
The number of people attending college massively increased and government funding stayed about the same or declined.

Easy to get loans certainly have an impact on prices, but non tuition spending has declined on a per student basis.

TheBlight · 3 years ago
>What we're allowing to happen here through investors buying up housing stock (and jacking up the prices), second homes, AirBnB and so on has reached the point of being a human rights violation IMHO.

There are plenty of affordable places to live. People just don't want to move there. Buying a house in a hip U.S. city/suburb isn't a human right.

PragmaticPulp · 3 years ago
This comment is too simplistic, but I have noticed this scenario playing out with a lot of the younger people I work with. We have a remote org and hire remote, but a lot of the young people we hire out of college have relocated to some of the most expensive cities.

There’s a growing attitude that if they’re already paying exorbitant amounts for housing and have a large amount of student debt, why not go all-in and buy a house that’s an extra $100-500K more than what they could find in a cheaper location?

There’s also a lot of FOMO from people who watched their friends over-extend themselves on expensive home purchases and then be rewarded heavily for it by rising home values. I’ve talked to a lot of younger people who have feel a severe sense of urgency to buy the most expensive house they can afford before they miss out on future gains or get priced out of the market entirely.

If you think house prices only go up rapidly and your entire adult life has confirmed that idea, you also wouldn’t be interested in moving to a boring location and buying a cheap house. You’d want to move somewhere exciting and get the most expensive house the bank will let you buy.

hypersoar · 3 years ago
Why shouldn't we expect people who work in cities to be able to live dignified lives in those cities? There are always going to be janitors, home care providers, baristas, grocery store employees, etc. Our daily lives depend upon them. It's insane to me that we have a system that requires those people to exist but barely pays them enough to afford to live.
notch656a · 3 years ago
I can buy a plot of dirt for maybe $10k near a city with lots of jobs in my state. The problem is actually building something requires following codes and building regulations. A simple adobe house is doable by hands by a family with the occasional help from extended family or friends. But government say "bad" and I need permits, even if it's on a 5 acre plot with zero chance of any structural failure spreading to a neighbor.

Meanwhile even shithole houses go for $250k+ in part because affordable housing is simply irreplaceable due to that housing being built before such onerous regulations being implemented.

ProfessorLayton · 3 years ago
Fair enough, but constraining supply of housing in desirable places by placing absurd obstacles on those that want to build more units isn't a human right either.
ervine · 3 years ago
It's not just the hip spots anymore. This comment is pretty out of touch.
smithza · 3 years ago
This does not even factor in the NIMBY-ism of many progressive cities. People argue that housing is a human right and time and time again refuse to allow permitting changes that build more affordable, multi-family homes in their backyard.
ayngg · 3 years ago
Productivity has risen, but it isn't a tide tide that raises all boats. Look at what has boomed since the 70s, finance and tech. Finance because markets were liberalized and the economy financialized. They are at the junction where capital gets allocated in the economy, so they are able to take rents on all the capital that flows through them. The more money moving around the more they slurp up. Tech is where the lions share of productivity was created. All of the huge tech companies are able to leverage the internet to reach a market way larger than any physical store could before. A software development team is automating the workflow that would have gone to physical store employees running a Sears or whatever, a company manufactures a machine that does the work of 5 people 10 times faster, etc. That is why they get paid so much.

Meanwhile the rest of the economy de-industrialized, manufacturing jobs became more scarce because technology increased productivity, whatever was too labor cost intensive went overseas, and whatever jobs couldn't be offshored, retail and service jobs, aren't capable of having the same productivity gains as what was happening in tech. There are pretty hard limits to what restaurant staff, or retail employees, or other regular jobs can do to become more productive. That is why their wages are stagnant, the only reason those jobs exist is because they can't be exported, in some places they even import foreign workers to do those jobs to keep wages low. This is why unions fell out of favor, labor has no leverage anymore since their jobs can just be exported, or they cant but they are low skill jobs so employers can just churn people or grab import immigrants to do it because employees are nothing more than cogs in a machine that Amazon hasn't figured out how to automate yet.

Keep in mind that this is all by design, capital was liberalized, economies globalized, college loans guaranteed, nimbys limiting development in real estate and energy, these were all policies that people wanted and politicians enacted, whether or not they were fully aware of the second order consequences which are why things feel so messed up now.

cudgy · 3 years ago
> these were all policies that people wanted

What people wanted to send almost all labor intensive jobs like manufacturing overseas? Or sending almost all the production of semiconductors which are the primary building blocks of technology overseas? The corporate ownership? Yes. The vast population of citizens? No.

Do you realize that the United States mainly exports cardboard and oil plus a few car parts for BMW? While we import almost everything else.

Finance and tech remained because they are top-heavy industries that require only a few high paid people to execute the majority of those businesses. Bottom line is that this is not sustainable over the long haul. People will revolt as they fully realize that a basic task like buying their own property for their family is unachievable and other basic expenses like healthcare, rent, transportation, and food take up all or more of their income.

gizmondo · 3 years ago
> The returns that capital demands (and the government obliges to) are ultimately unsustainable.

That's the start of the top comment, really? We're emerging from the era of unprecedentedly low returns on capital. There are trillions in bonds with negative nominal yield ffs.

dpweb · 3 years ago
Money drives the political process. We refuse to change it. Stockholm syndrome.

Just getting corporations and billionaire individuals to pay some taxes would be a nice start.

bogomipz · 3 years ago
>"This is turning into the West's version of Pakistan's brick kilns."

Could you elaborate on this reference? I am not familiar with this.

jmyeet · 3 years ago
Brick kilns in Pakistan (and also Bangladesh and possibly other places) are a form of neoslavery [1]. What happens is that depserate people are forced to take a job but as part of that job they go into debt. The company provides housing? You'll have to pay that back. They provide food too. You'll have to pay that back.

That's the point. For most there is absolutely no escaping that debt so they can't possibly get out of this situation (hence "neoslavery").

This form of coercion is violence and that's the point of having a budget shortfall in your existence: to make you a compliant worker whether you want to be or not.

Another term for this (and what people think we're heading to) is neo-feudalism because we're getting closer and closer to being serfs effectively.

[1]: https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2019/10/21/the-spiralling...

gilbetron · 3 years ago
I think it is equivalent to US's "company towns" or "company stores". A way to capture employee's money so they can't escape.
tagami · 3 years ago
Alaska has been paying residents since 1976 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Permanent_Fund
coryfklein · 3 years ago
And if you're not interested in the daylight issues that far north, Tulsa, OK is paying a $10k incentive to attract remote workers. At least two of my coworkers moved there during COVID.
BizarroLand · 3 years ago
They're drinking the water while choking the river.

If you have to have ever-increasing profits, you have to ALSO have purchasers with ever-increasing purchasing power.

You can slide by for a while by wedging yourself into a currently existing system and tapping some of its resources, but eventually if that drain isn't backfilled with more then it will run dry.

AuryGlenz · 3 years ago
Question for anyone that knows - have healthcare costs eaten away at what possible wage increases could have happened? It seems to me that for the average almost-minimum wage full time worker the insurance cost to their employer is probably a very large portion of their wages.
cyanydeez · 3 years ago
Last budget and tax cut was 2017.the real solution is to tax wxcess wealth and force wealth creators to pay for society
twblalock · 3 years ago
Wealth creators already do pay for society. Where do you think most of the tax money comes from? The top 1% of taxpayers pay almost half the taxes.

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alephnan · 3 years ago
Thanks to serfdom, we have IPhones and Gadgets.

Which consumer products do you own come from Norway?

trashtester · 3 years ago
Norway doesn't produce consumer tech products. Most of Norway's tech exports are oil or shipping related, in particular some state-of-the art offshore machinery.

The only consumer product that is produced in volume, is fish.

Keep in mind that Norway only has a population similar to South Carolina. There is a limit to how diverse the tech sector can be.

Sweden, the closest neighbour, is governed in very similar ways, and has plenty of familiar consumer oriented products.

lovecg · 3 years ago
I like my reMarkable tablet, thank you very much
mellavora · 3 years ago
An earlier poster mentioned something about gas and oil.

There is also some really interesting scientific research.

onlyrealcuzzo · 3 years ago
> Rising wages? There has been no meaningful real increase in wages in 40 years despite a massive increase in productivity.

If you're telling me that the AVERAGE person in the West is worse off now than in 1925 or even 1965, you're delusional.

MAYBE the average white male. But even that I am highly skeptical...

Was life better in 1995 or 2005 or 2012? I dunno. There's ups and downs. The trend line has been obvious.

libeclipse · 3 years ago
That's literally not what they said
bullen · 3 years ago
I think wages only can go up with abundant energy.

This time around interest is lagging inflation by atleast 1 year.

In the 70s the rate and salaries increased BEFORE the inflation occured = inflation was rate/salary driven and because debt level was lower.

Today salaries are not increasing 10% per year for most people.

So I actually think the interest rate hike increases the scarcity inflation eventually since energy production need low interest loans to build new sources.

The only sure thing about the hike is that ZERO new companies will be created, for good and for bad.

dillondoyle · 3 years ago
How is it possibly true that ZERO companies will be created if interest rates go up.

How many businesses are equity funded in the first place?

We did not have capital to start our business.

Most small businesses starting from zero can't get capital in the first place (excluding personal funds, family funds which aren't usually charging interest tied to the Fed benchmark)

Those tech companies that do get tons of capital despite negative value are somewhat unique and for sure interest rates will eventually affect that. Valuations are already starting to come back to at least the Stratosphere ;)

imtringued · 3 years ago
>So I actually think the interest rate hike increases the inflation since energy production need low interest loans to build new sources.

You mean wind, solar and nuclear power? I mean they are capital intensive because the operational costs are dwarfed by the initial investment. With coal and gas, the fuel is an ongoing and high expense compared to the power plant itself.

mark_l_watson · 3 years ago
You can argue either side to this, and make a good case.

My personal preference is to trigger a recession and reduce inflation. The easy cop-out solution is to say a "big f*ck off" to pensioners, lower middle class, and poor people and let inflation soar, but I believe that long term this would be more destructive to the general economy. Better take the long term view here and not kick the can down the street.

JumpCrisscross · 3 years ago
> personal preference is to trigger a recession and reduce inflation

These aren't binary outcomes. Tight money does nothing to ease supply-side bottlenecks. It does little to target demand displaced by rising energy prices. If those are the principal drivers of inflation, tightening could depress non-energy demand in a way that causes a recession without alleviating inflation. Stagflation. (To be clear, we're not at tight money yet.)

bko · 3 years ago
> If those are the principal drivers of inflation, tightening could depress non-energy demand in a way that causes a recession without alleviating inflation

You don't think the inflation has anything to do with printing $14 trillion out of thin air, or increasing the M1 money supply from ~4tn in march 2020 to over $20tn today?

https://www.covidmoneytracker.org/

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M1SL

jonny_eh · 3 years ago
That's my fear. In other words, increasing interest rates may not address the cause of the current inflation, so now instead of one problem (inflation) we have two (inflation + recession, aka stagflation).
Retric · 3 years ago
It keeps supply side bottlenecks from being inflated with cheap money.

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symlinkk · 3 years ago
Through their actions they’re revealing that all of the excuses thus far were a lie. “Chip shortage”, “wood shortage”, “salmon shortage”, were all fake and overblown, and the real problem was too much money the whole time.
ren_engineer · 3 years ago
takes guts to do this and it was needed. Problem is that it will expose that most of the US economy is a sham that needed 0% interest rates to even fake growth. our "leaders" have been kicking the can down the road for a long time. US economy used to grow even with very high interest rates, now even a slight increase puts us into a recession.
queuebert · 3 years ago
Is this because of the transition to a service economy?
imtringued · 3 years ago
Why do people assume that an economy will grow forever. If that were the case, how come the Roman empire failed to conquer the galaxy? 3% over 2000 years is a lot of growth, a lot, I can't stress how unimaginably large that amount of growth is.
susanasj · 3 years ago
I don't think it's that simple. Lower middle class and poor people have debt, and inflation is good for making debt less valuable in real dollars. Pensioners, maybe, but social security is indexed to inflation if I'm not mistaken? I wouldn't be surprised if many public and private pensions are as well.

This is much more a move in favor of the rich that are owed money by the poor imo.

ljhsiung · 3 years ago
The concept of "inflating debt away" is an assumption that wages match inflation while debt stays static. This is a fair assumption in low inflation times, but is showing some cracks these days.

One might then ask, do higher-class wages match/exceed inflation more than lower-class wages? This is debatable. But here's some interesting data from the Atlanta FED, where you can track wages by quintile, education, "skill", hourly vs. non-hourly, etc. Make your own conclusions.

[1] https://www.atlantafed.org/chcs/wage-growth-tracker

thatjoeoverthr · 3 years ago
They have debt, but they also have work contracts with out of date wages. But even in our sector, with the leverage that we as programmers have, companies don’t bother to match inflation. You have to make some risky or uncomfortable move to renegotiate your wage or find a new job. For many people it can be worse. So, everyone is under additional financial stress.
hypersoar · 3 years ago
Everywhere I look I see the unexamined assumption that inflation is necessarily bad for everyone. I haven't be enable to find a straight answer on who it actually benefits and who it hurts in the long run. I've found economics studies arguing contradictory conclusions. Wages, costs, debt, cash, stocks, and rent all react differently, and your experience of inflation depends hugely on what balance of these things you have.

Inflation and responses to it affect the distribution of wealth. When I hear an automatic response from "responsible" policymakers explain that some sacrifices will be needed to tame it (mostly not by them, of course), then I strongly suspect that we're headed for yet more accumulation of wealth at the top.

coryfklein · 3 years ago
> This is much more a move in favor of the rich that are owed money by the poor imo.

Inflation affects the poor much more than it does the rich, which is why it's considered a "regressive tax". The Fed making a historically large rate hike is a direct attempt at fighting inflation, preferentially so over preventing a recession.

And since we're already very near to full employment, the risk that inflation poses to the poor is greater than that of unemployement, hence why it is better for the poor that inflation is brought in check even at the risk of recession.

jessermeyer · 3 years ago
This is a double edged sword, naturally. Old debt becomes cheaper in equal measure to more expensive new debt.
calvinmorrison · 3 years ago
The mistake is that, most poor peoples largest expense is housing, and most poor people rent. Those who own have mortgages. Sure their $30K student loans (already on income based repayments) may benefit from inflation, but housing prices certainly not.
kobalsky · 3 years ago
saying that inflation is good for people that have debt is like saying that cancer is good for people that need to lose weight.

inflation is a monster that destroys the low and middle class. the rich and powerful have tools to profit and dance around it.

nostromo · 3 years ago
A key driver to inflation is that wages for lower-income workers was finally starting to rise.

Tanking the economy will hurt these people the most. But yes, inflation would flatten.

jcadam · 3 years ago
Still waiting for inflation to hit my effing salary.

I know it won't, because we're entering stagflation territory and unemployment is going to go up. COVID was a massive wealth transfer from the lower and (esp) middle class to the oligarchs.

mullingitover · 3 years ago
...and the lower classes hold a lot of debt, which under high inflation would start to vaporize. It would effectively transfer a lot of wealth from those who hold a lot of cash to those who don't.

Can't have that.

cjbgkagh · 3 years ago
I don’t know anyone who has had their salaries keep pace with inflation. And I presume the lack of pay rises is the cause for all the industrial action I keep hearing about.
twblalock · 3 years ago
I think every possible "tanking the economy" scenario always hurts the poor the most.
francisofascii · 3 years ago
What good is a higher wage if inflation is worse.
Someone1234 · 3 years ago
Inflation is largely being driven by import problems and oil prices, therefore, it is unclear if a recession is a golden key to lower inflation. Keep in mind that oil is internationally expensive, and even a reduction in the US may not bring down prices significantly.

So we could see recession AND inflation at the same time. Then tack on higher interest rates, and everything goes squish.

toomuchtodo · 3 years ago
The Fed can only manage monetary policy. If Congress wants to fix the petroleum energy crisis with policy, it has the tools to do so.
mmarq · 3 years ago
A huge component of American and British inflation is endogenous (stimulus checks, loose monetary policy, etc…). Both the central bank and the government can and should do something about it.

Core inflation in the UK is 6.2%, in the US is 6%, more than half the inflation rate. This is not the same in countries more affected by the energy shock, such as the eurozone.

cjbgkagh · 3 years ago
I just wish it was done earlier and more cheaply during otherwise good times.
rurp · 3 years ago
Exactly, the best time to raise rates was 6 years ago when the economy was humming along well. Instead the fed kept them too low creating huge bubbles, which it's now in the process of popping. These next few years are going to be a lot rougher than they needed to be.

This isn't just hindsight bias either. Plenty of people have been warning about exactly this problem for years.

tbihl · 3 years ago
I think you would need monarchy (or something more tyrannical) to get that. Democracies seem reliably short-sighted. The personal responsibility of taking on debt is so thoroughly attenuated in a democracy that piling on ($90k per citizen and counting, in the US) debt is the expedient thing to do, and it's seemingly impossible to overcome the electoral price paid for trying to reject that expedient option.
RspecMAuthortah · 3 years ago
> You can argue either side to this, and make a good case.

Here is an argument. Fed is a thief. First it recklessly bailed out all the toxic banks and derivatives in 2008, then kept the interest rates low for too long propping up the asset prices, then basically printed money as if there is no tomorrow, and then the moment middle class started to see wage growth they gave the asset owning class opportunity exit with big margin as they retired and then started raising the rates. End the Fed.

idlehand · 3 years ago
Every central bank in the world is caught between a rock and a hard place. A recession would be bad for the long-term economy, likely reducing aggregate productivity. But if they don't manage to get inflation under control, we'll see a wage/price spiral as high inflation expectations become entrenched among companies and workers.
mmarq · 3 years ago
The Fed missed the chance to act quickly in November/December and now it has to show commitment to bring inflation down before it spirals out of control. In the US and the UK, the current burst in inflation is more endogenous than it is in the eurozone (see core inflation), so it can and should be put under control by the central bank and by the government, the former with interest rates and the latter cutting stimulus checks and the like.

We’ll see what the BoE and the UK government do, but I’m not an optimist. I don’t see Johnson stop using public money to directly buy votes and I’m very doubtful of the competence of a central banker that goes on TV asking people to not demand pay rises.

hristov · 3 years ago
Actually higher inflation may help the poor and the middle class. If the inflation is caused by higher wages it is of great advantage of the poor and middle class. As well as a lot of the upper class (i.e., those of them that work for a living).

The present inflation is a bit of a mixed bag. It is partially caused by higher wages, but it is mostly caused by high oil prices, disturbances in grain and fertilizer sales caused by the war in ukraine and various covid related supply chain screwups.

I think the solution is to continue to address the things that can be addressed, like the covid supply chain screwups, low refining capacity, etc. Triggering a recession on purpose is really dumb.

xxpor · 3 years ago
I'm sure the lower middle class people who lose their job will appreciate it.
SketchySeaBeast · 3 years ago
What's the good play here? Cause a recession or price those lower middle class out of being able to afford the cost of living? Typically they aren't the ones with the best negotiating power.
Consultant32452 · 3 years ago
Speaking of lower middle class and poor people. Powell recently stated that workers had too much power and were able to demand too much higher wages. He intended to create policy to tip the balance of power away from workers to resolve this. I don't believe the well-being of lower middle class and poor people are a concern of his.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/transcript-fed-chief-powells-po...

trgn · 3 years ago
Yup. The last few years have also seen some of the highest wage growth in decades, and highest saving rates across the board. All that pent up demand and broadly distributed spending power is fueling inflation now. But, in the balance of things, labor did really well.

It's capital that being severely punished now, with negative returns (on top of inflation), it will take years to recoup losses. Anybody hoping of becoming a rentier (the FIRE crowd, seniors looking to retire come to mind) has seen their plans evaporate the last year.

While the truly rich probably don't care either way, their balance sheets are all shrinking nonetheless.

Low inflation may bring price stability and sanity to the markets, but it will not particularly benefit lower incomes.

shadowpho · 3 years ago
I would say the inflation hurts middle class significantly more -- they at least have some savings/money.

However, if you are poor you would have more debt\less savings. As such a recession would be worse -- especially as it leads to less jobs and lost jobs.

marricks · 3 years ago
Wages have been riser faster than inflation and triggering a recession will reverse that.

People love to act like they’re helping poor people when in truth they’re just hurting the labor market ie everyone but rich people.

darth_avocado · 3 years ago
Here's another perspective to this. An induced recession at a time when most people and businesses are recovering from historic losses that came about in the pandemic, is the worst.

In a recession, spending from the top 10% of the population slows down, which in turn stops the trickle down economics, and hits the lower 90% of the society the hardest. And when that happens after a 2 year long period where they were already hit hard, the effects will be even more long lasting.

[Edit]: Since most of you latched on to the argument that "trickle down economics" doesn't work, I'll clarify. Outside the rhetoric of "Billionaires are hoarding all the money", in a healthy economy, trickle down economics is how most of the businesses work. Every time a person earning six figures goes out buys that extra pair of shoes or goes on that extra vacation or orders in food because they were feeling lazy, it's trickle down economics. It works. When the people with higher purchasing power (I said top 10% for a reason and not top 0.1%) feel the pinch, it has a disproportionate impact on people with less money to spare.

mbfg · 3 years ago
please show where trickle down economics ever worked, anywhere.
francisofascii · 3 years ago
> when most people and businesses are recovering from historic losses

That's the thing. Most people and businesses did not have historic losses, outside of a few market segments. People and businesses are flush with cash, pumping up demand/inflation.

lovich · 3 years ago
> …which in turn stops the trickle down economics…

It ever started?

Dead Comment

ticviking · 3 years ago
I agree.

Selfishly I want inflation to inflate away my debt. But I'm well compensated and able to pursue new opportunities even in pretty lean times. Practically we have to control inflation in order to avoid far worse problems.

FabHK · 3 years ago
> pensioners

Are US pensions not tied to the CPI or some other inflation measure? (In Germany, pensions are, in principle, tied to the development of wages, which are generally assumed to outpace inflation.)

nemo44x · 3 years ago
Yes, Social Security is indexed to inflation. You can also buy a certain amount of I-Bonds that are tied to inflation and are paying very nicely nowadays. Tax free too.
mountainriver · 3 years ago
It actually may not be, when you enter a recession you can fall into an equity trap where everyone starts hoarding money and it further plummets the economy
legitster · 3 years ago
At the end of the day, inflation on average hurts older people, and older people are more likely to vote.
acd · 3 years ago
Prediction higher interest rates will reverse the following trends:

* Private car leases at near zero interest rate will stop. At one point it was sometime cheaper to lease than to buy a car for cash

* Housing bubble. Near zero central bank/bank interest rates has inflated a housing bubble. Higher interest rates will decrease housing prices since fewer buyers will be able to afford higher interest mortages.

* Tech bubble. Cheap interest has also funded some startups with non viable long term business ideas

* Electric scooter rental companies. There will be fewer electric scooters since the interest rate to lease them will be higher. Electric scooter rental companies will afford fewer scooters.

* Less investment companies buying up farmland. It will be more expensive to finance these deals

* High leverage tech stocks over schiller p/e 15 rate will deflate.

* There was no exponential startups growing forever. There was however debt growing an exponential rate. The world is still linear. Linear power production.

* Graphic cards for gaming will be more available for gamers again. Reason crypto currency mining will decrease deflate by higher interest rate not flowing as much into crypto.

* Tech bubble less tech startups will effect cloud vendor footprint. Fewer tech startups less need to rent cloud services.

scoofy · 3 years ago
I generally agree with all of this, though, i think two of the points may see counter-intuitive outcomes:

>* Housing bubble. Near zero central bank/bank interest rates has inflated a housing bubble. Higher interest rates will decrease housing prices since fewer buyers will be able to afford higher interest mortages.

Ehh... we should expect this, but supply may meet demand, instead of the other way around. We could see an unprecedented ramp down in the already unprecedentedly low inventory.

>* Less investment companies buying up farmland. It will be more expensive to finance these deals

I would be skeptical of this. There will be fewer financed deals, but there are likely firms out there betting on these rate hikes failing, which still make farmland a safe bet against inflation.

jgust · 3 years ago
> Ehh... we should expect this, but supply may meet demand, instead of the other way around. We could see an unprecedented ramp down in the already unprecedentedly low inventory.

This seems likely. As a hypothetical homeowner, I would have very little incentive to sell my house for less than I paid for it AND take the hit borrowing more expensive money unless there exists some external factor for me to move.

wait_a_minute · 3 years ago
“ We could see an unprecedented ramp down in the already unprecedentedly low inventory.”

What do you mean by this?

coryfklein · 3 years ago
If you've come here for informed commentary on economics, so far it seems the comments section is about par for the course by internet standards. If you're looking for informed professional analysis, I highly recommend the Inside Economics podcast by Moody's Analytics[0].

They post at least once per week and they often discuss recession odds, they break down the causes of inflation, and regularly host industry experts. (One of my favorites was an episode featuring an economist that works for a US car manufacturer and the insight they could give into the economics of new vs used cars and how auto makers are having to adapt to new economics of vehicles.)

[0] https://about.moodys.io/podcast-series/moodys-talks-inside-e...

ericns · 3 years ago
Hmmm, Moody's where do I remember that name from? Oh ya here it is - https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jan/14/moodys-864m...

Economics is the lies told by some middle class assholes with a degree and/or credential that get paid just enough by upper class assholes to trick low class rubes.

millimeterman · 3 years ago
> Economics is the lies told by some middle class assholes with a degree and/or credential that get paid just enough by upper class assholes to trick low class rubes.

Why does nonsense like this get parroted so much? Economics is as much a science as any other social science. Which is to say that it's certainly imperfect and is subject to social problems surrounding science (e.g. the replication crisis), but it's still very much a science. Obviously it's an evolving field with many areas of disagreement among experts, but what science isn't? Plenty of economic principles/models have strong predictive power and broad consensus from economists.

As for your (apparent) critique, economics currently isn't very good at long-term (especially macroeconomic) forecasting. But then science isn't great at predicting weather or earthquakes long term, yet we don't dismiss those fields as lies propagated by the elite. This isn't a defense of Moody's or anything - they may well have ignored the risks of mortgage-backed securities for financial gain, and I can't speak to the accuracy of their podcast.

But your argument seems no different than claims that because pharmaceutical companies have lied and caused harm in the name of profits, the entire field of medicine is nothing but lies and propaganda and we should throw it out and switch to curing cancer with juice cleanses.

lujim · 3 years ago
Thanks for posting the link so I didn't have to.
sghiassy · 3 years ago
Thanks for the link
lend000 · 3 years ago
Predictably, the Fed's quantitative easing combined with stimulus created inflation.

You can make a decent argument that the initial policy was the right thing to do. I mean, if you're going to force people not to work because of a pandemic, you have to give them some money. Whether there was (or is ever) a need to prop up the stock market as well is less obvious.

But where they VERY clearly f'ed up is labeling the inflation as "transitory" and allowing the market to keep running up ridiculous returns (which were detached from underlying value) and now having to clamp down much harder to get a hold on inflation, which will cause significant structural unemployment as those companies that were running red hot and expanding until a few months ago have to do a bunch of layoffs.

coryfklein · 3 years ago
A much greater proportion of this inflation is due to supply side shocks, and very little (if any at all) has to do with QE. COVID simultaneously destroyed supply chains while shifting consumer from spending on services to spending on goods which, by the laws of supply and demand, meant prices for goods went up: inflation.

Energy and locomotion are core aspects of the US economy that factor into just about everything including – you guessed it – the price of goods! And just as the impacts of the pandemic were easing in the US, one of the world's largest oil producers started a war and then was subject to sanctions and embargos by the US and Europe. And so, surprise, the price at the pump has skyrocketed! Again, no connection to QE.

The stimulus, on the other hand, I would agree with you; those checks increased the purchasing power of individuals right as supply chain issues cut the supply of goods. I imagine the alternative world where the stimulus hadn't happened might have been more structurally worse, albeit with lower inflation.

MrWiffles · 3 years ago
I agree with pretty much all of this, but would add that while the stimulus was absolutely necessary, it was applied/distributed so sloppily that lots of people who didn’t need it wound up with tons of free money (I personally know a few) while folks who were really suffering got almost no benefit at all (too little too late).

Once again, the only people who came out ahead are the ones with all the money and power in the first place.

lend000 · 3 years ago
While supply chain problems were real during the pandemic, especially w.r.t. automobiles, QE is by far the driving force of our current economic situation. Here is some data to put your talking point into context.

Look at the recent production some of the items being severely impacted by inflation. Now look up their price charts (you can use February before Putin invaded Ukraine to eliminate another variable).

Wheat: https://www.statista.com/statistics/267268/production-of-whe... Meats: https://www.statista.com/statistics/237632/production-of-mea... Steel: https://www.statista.com/statistics/267264/world-crude-steel...

The only economically significant shortages (as defined by lower production) were in automobiles and oil: https://www.statista.com/statistics/262747/worldwide-automob...

You could argue that demand for oil was also lower, because of fewer automobiles and, of course, lockdowns. Crude oil prices were at 2018 levels until the very end of 2021 (when inflation was at 7%), so you can't blame inflation on that.

Did Covid affect productivity? Undeniably. A significant portion of the world population was literally locked down for months. Is that lower productivity and resulting supply chain disruptment a contributor to inflation? Probably. Although without any government intervention, prices probably would have depressed similar to the 1930's as the economy contracted and cash became more valuable as paper loans eliminated money generated by the money multiplier.

But these statements suggest a low level misunderstanding: "and very little (if any at all) has to do with QE" and "one of the world's largest oil producers started a war."

QE is a major contributor (hence why it is finally being rolled back to undo the damage...) and the inflation rate was 7.9% in February, BEFORE Putin invaded Ukraine. If I had to guess a significance, I'd say overall economic price increases are a consequence of 70% QE, 20% supply chain, 10% Russia. Another thing... look at the stock market. If the supply chain truly demolished the value of the economy, why did the market go on a historic bull run? Either the supply chain issues were not as bad as you think, or the Fed way over-quantitative-eased and disconnected prices from reality by expanding their balance sheet with literal securities, and of course the historically low interest rates.

dragonwriter · 3 years ago
> Predictably, the Fed's quantitative easing combined with stimulus created inflation.

Combined with the removal of the conditions to which the stimulus and easing were responding, largely, the effects of both voluntary and mandatory behavior changes associated with the pandemic. (That's also why this didn't happen with last fiscal/monetary stimulus, because the underlying conditions didn't snap back as fast, allowing stimulus to unwind without overshooting.)

kerblang · 3 years ago
Dang. Well if it's enough to pop the various housing/cryptocurrency/startup bubbles, good. They were already pretty squishy but only for a threat that had to be carried out.

It can always be walked back, and probably will be in year...

morninglight · 3 years ago
> Seniors, should reap the benefits of higher bank savings rates after years of piddling returns.

Not to any significant degree. Bank rates won't come close to offsetting the effect of inflation. The big winner will be the IRS, as intended.

.

djbusby · 3 years ago
How does IRS win here?
Mountain_Skies · 3 years ago
Unless the tax brackets are adjusted, inflation with rising wages means more people in higher tax brackets. If corporate earnings go up, there's more for the IRS too though that might be wiped out by the lessening value of each dollar.
bojangleslover · 3 years ago
Inflation is 8.6% but they adjusted the tax brackets by 3%.

https://taxdude.substack.com/p/inflation-is-a-double-stealth...

cjbgkagh · 3 years ago
I assume capital gains on the increase in nominal value. The government gets a cut of that. Kinda acts like a wealth tax.
AnimalMuppet · 3 years ago
Let's say inflation is 10%. Let's say I have some money. To just break even, I have to invest it somewhere that returns 10%. So I do. (That's easier to find than it was when inflation was 1.5%.)

Then the IRS says that the 10% is income, and taxes me on that. They make more than they did when I was getting 1.5% on my money.

tamaharbor · 3 years ago
When inflation was surging in the late 1970s and early 1980s, CD rates exceeded 10%.
nemo44x · 3 years ago
And a mortgage came with a 16% rate. No thanks!
beezle · 3 years ago
Ridiculous that the Fed doesn't just raise 200bp and be done. They could have done this six months ago (call it 250bp then) if they truly believe that the level of interest rates will have a material effect on the inflation rate.

The piece meal, drip drip increases just raises uncertainty for consumers and businesses while ensuring they are "behind the curve"

afterburner · 3 years ago
The piecemeal approach ensures they avoid massive shocks and over-correction. The cure should not be worse than the disease.
88913527 · 3 years ago
Where was this thinking when it came to applying trillions of dollars in monetary policy? We're supposed to cautious with interest rate hikes, yet free with the money printer. Quite the double standard I'd say.
rdsubhas · 3 years ago
Or rather, it ensures they avoid a one-off under-correction. One big rate hike will be forgotten quickly and worked around. Inflation is a beast that needs long-term trends, not one-off actions.
misiti3780 · 3 years ago
that happened.
ABeeSea · 3 years ago
I know simple metaphors for complex problems aren’t great, but I’ve always liked this one:

Think of an economics equilibrium as a guitar string. The harder you pluck it (shock) the longer if vibrates back and forth before reaching equilibrium. Plucking it softer but more often, keeps the string closer to equilibrium across the entire time horizon.

This also applies to things like minimum wage increases.

whatevenisthat · 3 years ago
Too many dollars are chasing too few goods because of supply chain issues caused by these governments locking everyone down when they overreacted. You can't reduce inflation this way except by affecting tens of millions of innocent people who now have austerity measures imposed on them from on high courtesy of Janet Yellen and her posse.

They should have avoided the steep lockdowns and given cash directly to households instead of the giant infusion/bailout to failing states and companies that didn't even need the money.

FabHK · 3 years ago
FWIW, Jerome Powell is the Fed chair.