I did the opposite and can't believe how much better my life had gotten because my iPhone is just a simple tool that I use for communications and don't think about it as a project. With Android, I always wanted to tweak silly things and run Cyanogenmod because the handset firmware was always so bad and vulnerable. On several occasions I'd bricked my phone requiring hours of recovery, or had transient failures of cell service and communications issues. I guess if you have the right level of discipline, apathy, or use a Nexus device that may be more Apples to Apples (harhar).
What you're saying is that you left the freedom of your device to jail yourself into simple interface...?
Actually, this is a pattern that many products follow, as they evolve from a newly tinkered thing pioneered by enthusiasts to a mature consumer device.
There is much more "freedom" in 80's and 90's audio equipment. (And markedly higher build quality. Bargain stuff I bought as a teenager is now lauded on ebay as the good old stuff, "built like a tank.") However, there are also a lot more cables to deal with.
The progression is like this:
1) Pure tinkering, no standards
2) Enthusiast market, standards, high modularity/complexity
3) Prepackaged experience, no modularity
Cars also followed this pattern, come to think of it.
Don't buy a Nexus. I have and it's a huge disappointment.
I had a perfect Nexus 10 device running KitKat. And then it keeps nagging to upgrade to Lollipop, so I did. Ever since that, it runs every application slow as hell. If you allow the battery to run out, prepare for pain. Once you fill up the battery and it restarts it will start "optimizing" all installed applications. I have about 80 applications and this takes an hour. Every time it reboots!
Also, whether the sound will work after reboot, is a lottery. If you leave it plugged into the power, it surely won't work.
It's been how long since Android L came out and they still haven't fixed these issues for their own flagship device. Nexus is a mess and we're not even beta testers. Just a big fu from Google.
I was a longtime android user. Now jumped to iOS. It was not just the crapware but also the sheer audacity of android developers to access any and every piece of information available on the device. Marshmallow will fix things but the ecosystem still has to catch on and I don't think that developers would be quickly jumping on board.
I remember a very big media house published their first android application in my country. They demanded access to contacts, calendars, locations, camera, gallery...basically everything imaginable. And there was a fierce backlash from users.
It's always a matter of trade offs. For some people, tinkering with their device is more important. And for the rest, they just want to get their work done and for their devices to get out of the way. I have come to terms with the freedom in the latter category now.
I made a trade off, being a FreeBSD person I am one degree removed from a lot of the xnu/iOS team and trust them to do the right thing. Empirically it seems like they quickly ship updates for vulns and support phones for beyond their typical first world lifespan. I also trust Apple to worry about the baseband firmware for the lifespan, whereas that is completely unmaintained on all other handsets especially once you use a custom ROM.
It amazes me when Android users say that the answer to fleeing a walled garden where one company controls the hardware, the software, and the app store is by buying a phone (a Nexus) where one company provides the hardware and software and if you want to stay safe, only use their app store.
What you're saying is that you left the freedom of your device to jail yourself into simple interface...?
That's an incredibly hyperbolic way to spin their choice. No one's in prison here. A choice was made based on desired functionality and features. And they paid for that choice out of their own free will.
They've chosen 'the jail of a simple interface' the same way someone who gets tired of working on a classic car just to keep it running as a hobby decides they'd like to buy an A8 has imprisoned themselves to the dregs of luxury car use and bumper to bumper manufacturer maintenance.
That's how it's always come across to me. I buy Nexus or Nexus-like devices (the 2014 Moto X being an example of the latter) and just like iPhones, they work just fine for me out of the box.
In general, even the devices I don't personally like with OEM skins and addons work just as well out of the box for typical uses like web, email, phone, calendar, nav, and your average smattering of entertainment and communication apps.
In that regard, there's not a lot of difference and both platforms succeed well. It's more about how well they "fail". When I use my iPad and it doesn't do something I want or behave in a way I prefer, my options are often similar tweaking and tinkering. Many times, I would need to jailbreak the thing in order to install an unsigned app not approved by Apple to get it to do what I want.
On my Android devices, it's usually a lot simpler. iOS has improved a bit in terms of customization (being able to "open with" various apps instead of the factory defaults, third party keyboard layouts, and stuff like that) but that was always the case on Android.
As these platforms have matured, they've both got their "success states" pretty solid so now it's down to how well they "fail" and how easy it is to get my device to do what I need without jaibreaking or otherwise taking advantage of security holes to gain access to certain settings or capabilities.
I tried in February to switch to the Nexus 6P. I literally had to restart it TWICE on day one. How is that even reasonable? for 650 dollars, that's a joke.
I'll get downvoted to hell, but I really don't care, iOS just works (tm), and I'll take that over custimizibility any day of the week.
Clean as it gets? That must not be a very high bar. I bought a Nexus 7 once and it came with an HP Print services app that could not be removed. I would be willing to bet that would be classified as crapware by most users.
This is the main reason I stuck with iOS, even the the "pure" Android experience the Nexus line is supposed to offer is tainted.
In 5.x -- because Moto/Verizon refuse to update my X to 6 -- the path to add a news number in my call list to my list of contacts is... several steps and non-obvious, via the route of the command to "edit number before calling".
With each Android revision I've encountered, I feel more pissed off at it. Whoever's making these changes -- it feels like they are jerking me around for the sake of their own purposes -- whether ego, marketing/ads, or whatever.
And did I mention, my device -- still under contract -- is stuck on a vulnerable version of 5?
I'm about done with this shit. I've been looking at the Nexi, but... I'm just pissed, at this point. Maybe Apple's a "bully", but sometimes that seems to serve a good purpose.
> What you're saying is that you left the freedom of your device to jail yourself into simple interface...?
Hmm, I think it's only a jail if it feels like one. I did something similar for my photography, "jailing" myself to a fixed lens with no zoom. It was truly liberating to lock myself in. Yes, I realize the oxymoron there. But I could concentrate on making the best of my skills rather than falling into a gear swamp.
You know...I used to think the way you do. But given that we're the product in the Android ecosystem, lately I'm wondering more and more if I've made a mistake. If the perms were better on Android...if Google's control and permissive misuse of Android were better, I might feel differently.
Has N6 and Note 4, just got iPhone 6s+ a month ago, can't believe I stayed with android so Long, the only thing I miss on iphone tho is the touch flow keyboard from windows phone, nothing on iphone and android comes close. :(
Did you click on the article? All your points, while valid in a vacuum, have nothing to do with the author's argument about the two platforms' approaches to web apps.
I appreciate and even agree with your view, but you might as well be talking about OS X versus Windows given the topic of the submitted post.
Threads like these (completely off-topic, but somehow ends up at the top and takes up 1/4 of the page) are why I wish the official HN client could collapse threads.
I got a cheap-o Moto G for $170 3 years ago and love that thing. It is small 4" only, got reasonable updates (up to 5.1 now). It is simple to use.
Yeah Google owns my life, but I wouldn't feel better if Apple owned it instead. Never felt the need to tweak hardware, or run Cyanogen and others. Once I wanted more memory for my music. But then deleted some of the music I didn't want and was fine.
Best part if I sit on it and break it, I'll just go find another $170 Moto G without blinking an eye.
I have a full time job and all but shelling out $700 for a phone I can drop, loose, break is not in my budget yet. Maybe one day...
> Yeah Google owns my life, but I wouldn't feel better if Apple owned it instead
Why? Apple makes money selling you hardware. Google makes money selling you to advertisers.
I'm not comfortable with any company figuratively "owning" my life, but if I have to choose, the one that isn't built on scummy ads will get my money every single time.
I just got a Moto G3, and the 6.0 upgrade. Almost zero complaints so far. My only gripe is it occasionally has to restart apps with 1GB of memory. I would go with the 2GB model if I had a time machine.
This is an annoying top comment because it has nothing to do with the developer topic of the OP. It's just another boring useless opinion in the fanboy flame wars.
Linux user chiming in. This reminds of the people who complain about running Linux :-) When they run linux, they start tweaking all sorts of things: trying to run wayland master or run Arch (which is a great distro if you know what you are doing). And more often than not, they come out frustrated. Then the proceed to claim how awesome Mac is since everything just "works".
I know a few people who have a constantly broken desktop because they like to tinker (which is fine, we all did it) and then complain that linux is getting more unstable.
I just install Xubuntu, configure it to my workflow and it works until the next update comes out, I've had one serious issue with it (they shipped 15.10 unable to build the fglrx kernel module with the version of GCC, can't blame Xubuntu directly but that was a pain oth I found out that the open driver is now as good/better for just the desktop stuff so I came out ahead).
I made the switch to OS X because I couldn't trust myself not to tinker. Everything I broke, I eventually fixed, but that isn't something I wanted to deal with once I started using my computer for my work.
The article talks about how Android is a better platform to develop mobile offline web apps. You talk about how you like iOS from a user point of view. Your comment is totally unrelated to the article.
There is an entire book written about this trade off called "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintaince" One of the major themes is the author and his best friend comparing how they interact with their bikes and the meaning they get from either tinkering, or not having to tinker, with them.
I went through something similar recently. I moved to another country and in the process I had to buy something to replace my Note 4. I initially bought a Note 3 to replace my iPhone because I wanted to stop carrying a tablet. The Note was a "solution" to be able to read on the go at all times, play games, etc. all in one handy device. Upon moving I was really frustrated at first at the lack of options with large amounts of storage (my Note has a 128GB SD card) and a giant screen that were available from my new company's carrier.
The more I thought about it, though, the more I realized I was solving for a problem that no longer existed. I've felt recently like I spend too much time on my phone. I don't want to play games and watch movies on my commute any longer. I don't want to read books on my phone. I want to read an actual book or, at worst, on a Kindle where all I can do is read. I want to work my brain more, basically and the phone has become antithetical to that.
So I purchased a Nexus 5X. Low storage, barely enough space for my music, etc. I saw it as going as far down the phone food chain as I was willing to go without going to a flip phone. I've been really happy with it. I talk to human beings. I look at the world. And my phone really only has enough space for a few smartphone things like maps and music. It's perfect for what I want now. Fairly simple and limited. In this case limited is good.
yep, exactly the same experience. I've used android since beta and finally switched on iPhone 6s. never been happier. At one point (on my 2nd to last android) i found myself flashing a version of cyanogen on the subway because the phone just stopped working. I was laughing to myself about the crazy mess I was in. and flashing was never a smooth process, each version had it's own issues for which of course the only support was the forum. definitely do not miss any of that. i was shocked at how little tweaks ios needed after first setting it up and how little work there was to transition to a new phone when i changed colors. it not "just works" but works extremely well.
Same. I had Android for probably 6 years. Top of the line phones. Nexus one and Nexus 4. The Nexus one was great. The 4 irritated the crap out of me. I can't answer an incoming phone? Hello, this is a phone. Charging issues. Weird lag all the time. When it came time to upgrade I switched.
I've been thinking about "trying" a move in the opposite direction as well, but each time I look at the limitations of iOS, I think maybe next time I just get a cheap non-smart phone if that's all I want. Escape from all this.
n.b. I'm 40 and have no need for snapagram or whatever. (Even if I needed it, pfft, nobody needs it).
> I did the opposite and can't believe how much better my life had gotten because my iPhone is just a simple tool that I use for communications and don't think about it as a project. With Android, I always wanted to tweak silly things and run Cyanogenmod because the handset firmware was always so bad and vulnerable. On several occasions I'd bricked my phone requiring hours of recovery, or had transient failures of cell service and communications issues. I guess if you have the right level of discipline, apathy, or use a Nexus device that may be more Apples to Apples (harhar).
I did the same. Outsourcing mobile to Apple made my life easier too.
Me too. I switched from Android (Verizon HTC One) to iPhone and shit just works, e.g. VPN. I wasn't able to use a stock Google phone without vendor crapware. But the market being flooded with devices suffering from crapware is in some sense a valid criticism of "Android" as a product isn't it? At least that's how it seems to end users who might not have the sophistication to avoid crapware and who don't understand that Android is a platform rather than a product.
And how is this bad? I bricked my phone several times and fixed it. I cannot buy a phone that I can't tinker with (which is i have a Nexus now). I don't understand how inability to tinker is a good thing.
Take that argument one step further and it's the net neutrality condition.
I don't think he is talking about the "inability to tinker" but about the "necessarily to tinker". Most Android phones a loaded with bloated crab ware.
I have an Android and I made sure before I bought it that it runs Cyanogenmod. I don't like the locked-in systems from Apple but sometimes I miss something that runs out of the box.
"Perfect" is a stretch. It was one of the better options in its release window, though.
One flaw: tough to repair (2/10 on ifixit [0]) which will be fun when the battery starts to go.
Another issue: Android Marshmallow (admittedly not Nexus-specific) doesn't play well with AdBlockPlus, and if you want AdAway or another hosts mod, you still need root. Rooting will allegedly break Android Pay, too.
My iPhone would ring and I could use speaker on a call but I could not hear music or sound in videos. I rebuilt my image, but the issue persisted for about 3 months!! It was my car audio dock and Apple's hidden "other volume" setting that was the culprit.
At one time, I tried to copy music to my phone, but all new songs were being corrupted. I used 3rd party tools successfully, but iTunes would corrupt the songs when I re-synced my phone. About a month later, Apple fixed the bug - but it was "impossible" to get new songs on my phone.
ITunes crashed during synchronisations and I realised at one point that I had about 25 gigabytes in lost space. I had to erase the phone and recover from a backup to fix the leak, which takes many hours to do. There is no file system fixer for IOS.
In most of these instances, I was snookered because I had no control over my device. Going several months without music was a major inconvenience that Apple failed to solve, despite many attempts. This reinforced that I am not truly in control of my device when such basic things are not possible.
TL;DR Apple "just works" is a myth. It's great when it works and disastrous when it doesn't.
Exactly Kev. Android is like having a phone that feels like it has holes in it and thorns - its like an overgrown backyard like oh I should pull up these weeds.. I should work on this fence.. My iphone is like a smartphone.
This. This and more this. Compared to Android and Windows, iOS and OSX is pure nirvana. Sure, accuse me of drinking the Kool-Aid all you want, but is my life simpler or what. Never wanna go back to fiddly-hell, ever.
Nearly all of the comments here are missing the point of this blog post. The author likes Progressive Web apps, they are important to him. He's moving to Android because it supports the web better.
That's it.
This isn't iOS vs Android and it certainly isn't web vs native. Yes, the article is critical of native apps (and the app store) so I can see how you'd go there but it's a distraction. I see this article as an"I want to use the best mobile web platform possible" argument.
I'm not sure why people are giving anecdotes about switching to iOS from Android like the blog post was about a personal device usage decision vs. a decision to switch developmental platform due to better support for the web.
It's one of the better written blog posts, and has convinced me to look at PWAs. The future he outlines with seamless installations and cross-platform fallback IS something I want to get to.
I guess if the original poster had chosen a better title for his HN submission, like "Android's good for progressive web apps" he wouldn't have started a flame war.
"I ditched iPhone for Android" is always going to rekindle the iPhone vs Android flame war. The original poster is to blame.
It's a pity Android fans always feel the need to compare everything they do to Apple's software and devices. I guess it's the imposter syndrome that comes with being 2nd to the marketplace?
I didn't read it that way at all. He's calling out that Apple isn't doing a great job supporting the web and this fact is so important to him that he's willing to switch platforms.
And 'blaming the poster' is classic victim shaming. Not reading a post and then flaming based on the title is exactly what the web tends to do far too easily (and what we need much less of)
The title invites debate about the platforms and pros/cons thereof. If the title were about progressive web apps, I suspect the entire discussion here would be different.
You're absolutely correct. I participated in the above conversation because it's interesting, but you're right that it's missing the point. The original blog post is really thoughtful. I enjoyed it.
You're correct, and I partially blame the author of the article. He chose a very controversial and, in my opinion, incredibly counter-productive way to frame the discussion of progressive web apps.
My main exposure to Chrome web apps is Hangouts on Chrome for Mac and half the time I shut it down and choose to use the native app on my phone instead due to the poor, non-native UI and the battery life impact of Chrome.
edit: the other shiny Google Web App example, Google Docs, doesn't work either. In Safari it likes to drops keys, and the last time I used it in Chrome (last autumn), it would either crash the whole tab, or freeze it up long enough for it to tell me it gave up and that I should just copy the content and paste into a new document
It seems we're re-living the nightmare of Java "cross-platform compatibility" but with an even worse programming language.
> In fact, I think Progressive Web Apps (PWAs) actually have a huge leg-up on native apps because you can start using them immediately
> There’s just so much less friction for users to start using them
Every web app I've used has required a painful sign-up process, which is usually where I bail out of the process. Way more friction than an app store install.
Facebook's mobile web app is very good. In fact it is quite a lot better than their native app on Android. I believe most of the examples of bad mobile web apps (eg: twitter, linkedIn) are because the organization focuses their resources on the native side instead of the mobile web app.
> Every web app I've used has required a painful sign-up process, which is usually where I bail out of the process. Way more friction than an app store install.
That signup process can be made better. Nothing fixes the pains of having to download a large app over a potentially slow/spotty network, sacrifice an unknown amount of privacy, then having to twiddle a variable amount of options to get the thing to stop sending you notifications about every single action or event, then after a week of use, having to re-download the large app again because of updates.
> Nothing fixes the pains of having to download a large app over a potentially slow/spotty network
You mean like the 12 MB it takes to load a Google Sheet? At least with a native app, once it's downloaded you know it's there and it won't go into an indeterminate state if you happen to try to use a feature that hasn't been loaded yet.
> sacrifice an unknown amount of privacy, then having to twiddle a variable amount of options to get the thing to stop sending you notifications about every single action or event
These are not issues when you have iOS's permissions model
> Every web app I've used has required a painful sign-up process, which is usually where I bail out of the process. Way more friction than an app store install.
Support for password managers like LastPass is one of the areas where Android shines compared to iOS.
Also, you seem to imply that most apps downloaded from the app store don't require a sign-up process. I beg to differ. And I note that the sign-up process is even more painful outside of a browser (e.g. outside of the browser you can't use LastPass to generate a random password for you)
The website about 'progressive web apps' [1] has 3 demo apps. None of them work in Firefox 43 on Linux. The apps require JavaScript but fail to use the <noscript/> tag to tell the user.
I've an iPad 1 on which I can install web pages as web apps by bookmarking them. If the page has the right meta tags [2], the app/page will open as fullscreen. This works fine with many web APIs e.g. WebAudio. I do not know if Android or Ubuntu phone support Web Apps in the same way.
I like this way of distributing simple applications, but take care to check the JavaScript with Closure Compiler.
I did the opposite. 7 years of Android to iOS. I'll never go back unless Apple somehow swaps the experience to be more like Android phones, and less like iOS is. But I don't really care about that. I just want my phone to work, to make calls and not fail or slowdown. Not be another computer I have to maintain. iOS in my experience is a great choice if that's the goal.
He hit the nail on the head at the end. Native React and similar tools are going to simply help the app stores. I have no qualm with app stores as I'm not a webapp diehard.
Just use what makes sense. I never think that is Javascript and take the exact opposite view of the author. I use JS only when I absolutely have to. I prefer to build native platform experiences, which if you're doing more than a CRUD app many times you have to do anyway. I'd work with C#, Swift, Rust, Python and their associated ecosystems before trying to JS All The Things. I find that concept very anti-democratic and regressive.
The Javascript diehard mentality will come to it's final death throes once wasm hits V2 and allows every language the chance to work in the browser.
Then the web will truly progress as the author states. Developers will be freed to use whatever they want. Swift on the server, iOS and browser. Let programming platforms and tooling duel it out, not hand the crown to a PL that was created in 1 week. I choose Python, but everyone should be able to use whatever they want as well.
The argument seems to be that app developers aren't doing very well on the app store, and you're looking to the free and open web as the place where vast sums of money will be made? For the vast majority of these apps, I beg to differ. The web plays by the same rules as the app ecosystem: it's very expensive to monetize, unless of course you are creating value for someone who has money and minimal friction when paying.
"Unfortunately, the web platform itself wasn’t quite ready for the spotlight yet. It was sort of possible to build web apps that looked and performed like native apps..."
Are you talking about 2007 or 2016? Native apps will always outperform non-native apps - and not because of any emotional or "political" reason - but for perfectly obvious technical reasons. Web apps have an extra layer between themselves and the hardware. Native apps do not (or, at least, the layer is much thinner). Even if web apps increase in speed another 100x, native apps will be right there too.
Look, at the end of the day, use Android or iOS. I don't care. I've used both. But don't switch for this reason.
Thank you for a comment that actually speaks to the content of the article. Unfortunately it's buried under people commenting about their thoughts as a user. Which may be to the author's point: Apple's suppression (intended or not) of the web-app ecosystem has helped make the iPhone experience the (apparent) gold standard in mobile. [Note: I'm just summarizing- I don't know because it's all I use.]
But I empathize with the author's view. In fact, let's not ignore the fact that some companies that have perfectly useful web pages have dreadful iPhone apps, and in those cases the web experience (even on the phone) is superior. But when you think of the ideal, you are correct and native wins.
This point is addressed in the article, the point is not to have web app perform as fast or better than native app. As long as they are fast enough it's ok.
I'll support this point: for so many services I'd be ok to trade off native performance for a smoother install process and independance from arbitrary rules. For instance amazon kindle app is severly limited by the app store rules while it has arguably no features that need to be native and does have almost no performance need (I wouldn't care if it took 250ms instead of 100ms to turn pages)
Same goes with apps like google keep or to do list apps. Whole categories of app would be better off as locally installed web apps, if only the OS had better support for them.
> This point is addressed in the article, the point is not to have web app perform as fast or better than native app. As long as they are fast enough it's ok.
That may be true if you only care about performance, but what about battery usage? That's something important on a phone.
> Web apps have an extra layer between themselves and the hardware.
True but, on the other hand, native apps require extra steps to be taken by the user (go to the App Store, download the app) which somehow makes user acquisition harder. However we could also argue that once a native app is installed, that increases the chances of user retention, i.e. the user is more likely to use that service again.
Wow. I'm a long time Android user and probably pay more attention than most, and I had no idea web apps had gotten quite this nice. Currently the only web app / web shortcut I have installed is the HackerWeb app[0], which is nice but clearly not taking advantage of all of the functionality it could.
I "installed" Flipkart Lite and the Voice Memos demo app to see the state of the world. Clearly it's possible to build some really nice web apps these days! I hope to see more of it moving forward.
Actually, let me piggyback on your comment and ask a usability question: Has anyone written an OS X app to make OS X play nicely with Android phones by syncing contacts, emails, calendars, and audio? I ask because Apple did something supremely annoying with an iTunes, OS X, or iOS update a while ago: Contacts and calendars no longer sync directly from OS X to iPhones and vice versa.
This is monumentally annoying. iPhones are now pretty expensive and don't have this one feature that I used to find incredibly useful. I know there are ways to accomplish this via iCloud, but I neither like nor trust iCloud and don't need it.
You can connect your gmail account on a Mac and it sync's contacts. I do this so my VoIP apps have access to my gmail contacts, which are shared with my Android phone.
jseliger - Thank you for saying this! I can't use iCloud when I don't have internet access. This is usually when I'm travelling, which is also the time I most need to manage new contacts and calendars.
I'm still using iTunes 10.7 and iOS 6.1.3 on Mac OS 10.9 Mavericks. It required some framework hacking to make it work, but it's the only way to get offline USB sync and a (beautiful) Retina display.
Oh, and don't forget the ability to sync Safari Bookmarks. I used to be able to sync Notes too, but Apple broke that in 10.8 Mountain Lion.
If any company can offer an ecosystem comparable to Apple circa 2011, I'd be persuaded to switch. For now, I have to stick with my old iPhone 4S. Surprisingly, I haven't really missed out by not upgrading.
Hey! Sorry if that comment came out a bit harsh; I definitely didn't mean it to. As evidenced by the fact that I continue to use the web app over any of the native options, I'm obviously a pretty happy user.
So, random thoughts/feedback:
- I wish I could login, comment, maybe even receive comment notifications? Although the last would clearly be an improvement on HN itself.
- I wish I had some preferences available to me, e.g. always open links externally vs. inside the app itself. (I can long-press on a link and select "open in Chrome" of course.)
- Flipkart has some pretty slick animations. The primary thing that jars me about HackerWeb is how abrupt everything is compared to native apps.
Obviously nothing huge; just stuff I didn't know was even possible. Anyway, let me at least grab this opportunity to thank you for your work!
I have tried multiple Hacker news native application, and I didn't like any of them. I, however, love your Hackerweb web app. Its clean, simple and fast. And it feels like a native app.
Only one for me: get the previous icon back! I've really tried to like the new one but I still miss your previous icon.
Joke aside, HackerWeb is an awesome example of a webapp done right. It's the only web app on my home screen, and my favorite Hacker news reader on mobile, beating any native app I've tried.
Awesome job! Do you have any feedback about issues your encounter for the development? I'm thinking about iOS updates, responsive design with iPad etc... ?
I read the post, then looked up ServiceWorkers and this progressive web app stuff, and it doesn't seem that useful. You don't have access to files, or hardware (Bluetooth/sensors), or notifications, so what's the actual use case?
It seems like it's just a way to be able to make cross-origin requests in a browser. Can it even do that? Seemed like it had a bunch of security considerations that make even that not useful.
The primary use cases for service workers today are robust offline support and notifications. More generally service worker gives you broad and very fine grained control over your app's use of the network. Service worker itself doesn't give additional cross-origin request abilities, except by giving more control over caching.
If YC provides API like reddit, you can build really good client using web technology. https://hackerwebapp.com/ is best you could do without good APIs.
This is my reddit client. https://reddit.premii.com/ - You can login, upvote, reply, save, and tons of other things.
>I don’t know about you, but the idea of having a fully capable web browser in my pocket was a huge part of the appeal.
A: Both iOS and android have fully capable web browsers, I'm not sure what's missing here ?
>I’m talking about stuff that QA should have caught, stuff that if anybody at Apple was actually building ? apps this way would have noticed before they released.
A: They do pass QA, that's why features are removed
>One quick example that bit me was how they broke the ability to link out to an external website from within an app running in “standalone” mode. target=_blank no longer worked.
A: Thank god apple no longer allows that, how do you expect a tiny screen to have popups and switch web browser views when you click links ? this is a very bad UX.
>We were running a chat product at the time, so anytime someone pasted a URL into chat it was essentially a trap.
A: I'm not here to judge your decisions or why you did it that way, but IMHO a chat product doesn't really belong in a "web browser"
>The message from Apple seemed clear: web apps are second-class citizens on iOS
A: Exactly, and it is that way for many good reasons.
I see you've mostly switched to android just so you can continue developing webapps, that's okay for you, but it's not a really good reason at all.
Don't be like the people who where bashing apple when it decided to remove support for flash player, because that's one of the reasons the web has
become the way it is today, i'm not an apple fanboy, i also did the switch from iOS to Android after around 7 years too.
According to that, it does not work on iOS Safari. Not any version. Ever. Apple only allows Safari on iOS. Therefore, any application that would like to do streaming will have to be native on iOS. Will have to pay Apple a 30% tax. Will have to live with Apple's approval and release schedules.
Apple has allowed Safari to stagnate in significant areas that would permit web apps to compete with native apps. This isn't another iOS vs Android flame war. It's more an indictment of Apple's development priorities on the mobile browser.
I saw that point yeah, sorry i missed mentioning it, but in my opinion, this is not even closely a reason to compare iOS to android, that's basic browser limitation, even though it's pretty recent on android, and your link marks it as "partial support", I wouldn't see it from a developer point of view nor from an end user point of view.
He was even comparing iOS to an old android phone, which definitely didn't support it either way and wouldn't even be updatable to support those new features.. and I wouldn't call a browser that doesn't WebRTC as a less capable one.
The general "Safari is the new IE" meme comes down to Apple having different priorities than other browser vendors (notably Google) when adding features. Right now the complaints tend to center on Service Workers and WebGL, but there are quite a few browser technologies in which Safari support lags.
The things Apple priorities -- battery life and security, for instance -- don't mean much to most developers who would prefer to be able to use <insert sparkling new web tech here> without worrying about shims, and so on. Problem is, you can't quote that "there are 1.5 billion Android users out there" with this in mind and keep a straight face. A huge proportion of those users are NOT using a browser this group wants to target.
> Thank god apple no longer allows that, how do you expect a tiny screen to have popups and switch web browser views when you click links ? this is a very bad UX.
I don't think you realize what he's talking about. Any mobile app has the ability to open links either sending them to the default browser or using a webview overlay. How is not being able to open any links at all a better user experience?
1-You're wrong, any app can do that on iOS/Android. who says that you can't open links from an iOS app ?
2-He was specifically talking about webapps in "standalone" mode, he specifically mentioned using `target="_blank"`. that kind of behavior does not belong in mobile environments, actually i personally disallow that on my computer too, but that's personal choice.
>Both iOS and android have fully capable web browsers, I'm not sure what's missing here ?
I think at that point he was referring to the initial appeal of the iphone, when th efirst one was released. there was no Android and no comparable device existent at the time.
>Thank god apple no longer allows that, how do you expect a tiny screen to have popups and switch web browser views when you click links ? this is a very bad UX.
What kind of phone are you using? most things got screens so big that they don't fit into my pocket anymore.
>I'm not here to judge your decisions or why you did it that way, but IMHO a chat product doesn't really belong in a "web browser"
Rocket.chat does exactly that and it is fantastic. Other webapps as well. The key feature being that you can chat on any browser, and using for example electron (the engine based on chrome, also used by the atom editor) you can easily build apps for every platform. And if you add features, they are added everywhere at the same time without a problem
>I think at that point he was referring to the initial appeal of the iphone, when th efirst one was released. there was no Android and no comparable device existent at the time.
True, but don't forget that the first iPhone was an expensive piece of nothing really, we had no app store nor sdks
>What kind of phone are you using? most things got screens so big that they don't fit into my pocket anymore.
I come from iPhone 3Gs->4->4s->5->6->6s->LG G4, I can say that it's a HUGE screen with bigger resolution than my desktop, but what i meant was the total size of the screen in physical size, i don't want no friggin popups and many windows in a 5" screen
>Rocket.chat does exactly that and it is fantastic. Other webapps as well. The key feature being that you can chat on any browser, and using for example electron (the engine based on chrome, also used by the atom editor) you can easily build apps for every platform. And if you add features, they are added everywhere at the same time without a problem
Ofcourse there are tons of good examples out there, I'm explaining my personal point of view when it comes to web browsers and doing lots of in it that that it was never intended for. I'm fine if you just rename it from web browser to "JS App Container" or whatever, but to me a web browser is just a place to browse pages
>> I’m talking about stuff that QA should have caught, stuff that if anybody at Apple was actually building ? apps this way would have noticed before they released.
> A: They do pass QA, that's why features are removed
Even if QA catches stuff, it frequently gets ignored by developers and product managers who don't want anything holding up the ship date.
If the software gets frequent updates, this becomes the norm. Bug fixes come in future development cycles, not when they are found.
QA is the least powerful group in any software engineering setup so it's amusing that consumers think of them as God-like powerful creatures who can hold up releases.
Im not sure what it is about articles like these that bother me so much. Is this guy some hacker hero that I should know? I dont care what the platform is, and this is nothing to do with iOS vs Android. I really cannot stand this "why I quit x" type of blog post. Is there a reason this guys opinion matters more than anyone elses? I know I could just ignore articles like this, but it does happen to be staring me in the face at the top of the list. At the risk of irony, I would much rather see a case made for improving something than a "I chose this because its better, and I know better than you" article.
I don't think there's anything wrong with the article; it's a personal blog and switching mobile platforms is a pretty significant change for most people. I'd be more surprised if someone with a personal blog _didn't_ write about it.
That said, I don't see why it hit the frontpage of HN. It doesn't seem to add anything of benefit discussion-wise or show anything new in my opionion
>That said, I don't see why it hit the frontpage of HN. It doesn't seem to add anything of benefit discussion-wise or show anything new in my opionion
I upvoted it because it showed me how exciting progressive webapps can be. I was somewhat aware of them before, but hadn't realized how close they were to native apps.
It's unfortunate about the title, because the comments devolved into arguing platform wars instead of discussing the ramifications of this new technology.
It doesn't seem like you've read the article because the author does ask for improvement for Apple's support of web applications and specifically criticizes their blatant and ignored backsliding over the past 9 years.
This article is specifically on professional reasons to use a development platform, and really has hardly anything to do with personal preferences.
This guy is a hacker hero, and he is one that you don't know.
Readit News
What you're saying is that you left the freedom of your device to jail yourself into simple interface...?
I do agree though, that those samsung/lg/etc phone have lots crapwares + carrier crapwares.
Actually, this is a pattern that many products follow, as they evolve from a newly tinkered thing pioneered by enthusiasts to a mature consumer device.
There is much more "freedom" in 80's and 90's audio equipment. (And markedly higher build quality. Bargain stuff I bought as a teenager is now lauded on ebay as the good old stuff, "built like a tank.") However, there are also a lot more cables to deal with.
The progression is like this:
Cars also followed this pattern, come to think of it.I had a perfect Nexus 10 device running KitKat. And then it keeps nagging to upgrade to Lollipop, so I did. Ever since that, it runs every application slow as hell. If you allow the battery to run out, prepare for pain. Once you fill up the battery and it restarts it will start "optimizing" all installed applications. I have about 80 applications and this takes an hour. Every time it reboots!
Also, whether the sound will work after reboot, is a lottery. If you leave it plugged into the power, it surely won't work.
It's been how long since Android L came out and they still haven't fixed these issues for their own flagship device. Nexus is a mess and we're not even beta testers. Just a big fu from Google.
It's always a matter of trade offs. For some people, tinkering with their device is more important. And for the rest, they just want to get their work done and for their devices to get out of the way. I have come to terms with the freedom in the latter category now.
No, he's saying that he got himself out of being the prisoner of his device (time, maintainance, etc wise) to being the casual user of his device.
That's an incredibly hyperbolic way to spin their choice. No one's in prison here. A choice was made based on desired functionality and features. And they paid for that choice out of their own free will.
They've chosen 'the jail of a simple interface' the same way someone who gets tired of working on a classic car just to keep it running as a hobby decides they'd like to buy an A8 has imprisoned themselves to the dregs of luxury car use and bumper to bumper manufacturer maintenance.
In general, even the devices I don't personally like with OEM skins and addons work just as well out of the box for typical uses like web, email, phone, calendar, nav, and your average smattering of entertainment and communication apps.
In that regard, there's not a lot of difference and both platforms succeed well. It's more about how well they "fail". When I use my iPad and it doesn't do something I want or behave in a way I prefer, my options are often similar tweaking and tinkering. Many times, I would need to jailbreak the thing in order to install an unsigned app not approved by Apple to get it to do what I want.
On my Android devices, it's usually a lot simpler. iOS has improved a bit in terms of customization (being able to "open with" various apps instead of the factory defaults, third party keyboard layouts, and stuff like that) but that was always the case on Android.
As these platforms have matured, they've both got their "success states" pretty solid so now it's down to how well they "fail" and how easy it is to get my device to do what I need without jaibreaking or otherwise taking advantage of security holes to gain access to certain settings or capabilities.
I tried in February to switch to the Nexus 6P. I literally had to restart it TWICE on day one. How is that even reasonable? for 650 dollars, that's a joke.
I'll get downvoted to hell, but I really don't care, iOS just works (tm), and I'll take that over custimizibility any day of the week.
Finally settled for the Nexus 6P, and I'm loving it. No need more dealing with crapware!
This is the main reason I stuck with iOS, even the the "pure" Android experience the Nexus line is supposed to offer is tainted.
With each Android revision I've encountered, I feel more pissed off at it. Whoever's making these changes -- it feels like they are jerking me around for the sake of their own purposes -- whether ego, marketing/ads, or whatever.
And did I mention, my device -- still under contract -- is stuck on a vulnerable version of 5?
I'm about done with this shit. I've been looking at the Nexi, but... I'm just pissed, at this point. Maybe Apple's a "bully", but sometimes that seems to serve a good purpose.
If you are addicted to TV but want to spend your time on more active pursuits, you get rid of your TV.
If you're addicted to futzing around with your Android device…
Hmm, I think it's only a jail if it feels like one. I did something similar for my photography, "jailing" myself to a fixed lens with no zoom. It was truly liberating to lock myself in. Yes, I realize the oxymoron there. But I could concentrate on making the best of my skills rather than falling into a gear swamp.
All that said, I don't trust Apple one bit ;-)
> Switched to iOS from Android (with reasons)
> Counterargument is: But you didn't try this specific Android device.
Sort of "moving the goalposts," is it not?
"Is this not... better?" - Loki
Until it gets infected with malware that requires a firmware reflash to close:
http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/03/rooting-bug-in-andro...
I appreciate and even agree with your view, but you might as well be talking about OS X versus Windows given the topic of the submitted post.
Yeah Google owns my life, but I wouldn't feel better if Apple owned it instead. Never felt the need to tweak hardware, or run Cyanogen and others. Once I wanted more memory for my music. But then deleted some of the music I didn't want and was fine.
Best part if I sit on it and break it, I'll just go find another $170 Moto G without blinking an eye.
I have a full time job and all but shelling out $700 for a phone I can drop, loose, break is not in my budget yet. Maybe one day...
Why? Apple makes money selling you hardware. Google makes money selling you to advertisers.
I'm not comfortable with any company figuratively "owning" my life, but if I have to choose, the one that isn't built on scummy ads will get my money every single time.
Stock android, waterproof, swift, solid (I've dropped it an unbelievable amount of times (my HTC's didn't survive even one drop)).
The UI is absolutely fine. Nice and clean and quick. And I concur, don't need to fiddle with anything.
Brilliant phone. I'll have it over an iphone or Sammy £500 phone in a second.
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So yeah, I totally get what you are saying :-)
Yes that works these days. 2 yrs and running, with minimal tinkering. Can't do that on Android (it would require you to never install an update).
I just install Xubuntu, configure it to my workflow and it works until the next update comes out, I've had one serious issue with it (they shipped 15.10 unable to build the fglrx kernel module with the version of GCC, can't blame Xubuntu directly but that was a pain oth I found out that the open driver is now as good/better for just the desktop stuff so I came out ahead).
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The article talks about how Android is a better platform to develop mobile offline web apps. You talk about how you like iOS from a user point of view. Your comment is totally unrelated to the article.
The more I thought about it, though, the more I realized I was solving for a problem that no longer existed. I've felt recently like I spend too much time on my phone. I don't want to play games and watch movies on my commute any longer. I don't want to read books on my phone. I want to read an actual book or, at worst, on a Kindle where all I can do is read. I want to work my brain more, basically and the phone has become antithetical to that.
So I purchased a Nexus 5X. Low storage, barely enough space for my music, etc. I saw it as going as far down the phone food chain as I was willing to go without going to a flip phone. I've been really happy with it. I talk to human beings. I look at the world. And my phone really only has enough space for a few smartphone things like maps and music. It's perfect for what I want now. Fairly simple and limited. In this case limited is good.
I don't consider my action as switching as I'll probably keep switching to both my windows phone and xperia every couple of months.
The main reason I got myself an iPhone: there are still plenty of apps launching iOS only or first.
I also feel that both platforms have now matured for the past year and it doesn't really matter what I use.
I got to complain about iOS (lack) of a system-wide filesystem and locked-down file-sharing, though.
Bought an iphone last year. Couldn't be happier.
So effectively, you prefer to use tools that give you less flexibility and that's why you prefer the iPhone.
n.b. I'm 40 and have no need for snapagram or whatever. (Even if I needed it, pfft, nobody needs it).
I did the same. Outsourcing mobile to Apple made my life easier too.
Take that argument one step further and it's the net neutrality condition.
I have an Android and I made sure before I bought it that it runs Cyanogenmod. I don't like the locked-in systems from Apple but sometimes I miss something that runs out of the box.
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One flaw: tough to repair (2/10 on ifixit [0]) which will be fun when the battery starts to go.
Another issue: Android Marshmallow (admittedly not Nexus-specific) doesn't play well with AdBlockPlus, and if you want AdAway or another hosts mod, you still need root. Rooting will allegedly break Android Pay, too.
[0] https://www.ifixit.com/Device/Nexus_6P
My iPhone would ring and I could use speaker on a call but I could not hear music or sound in videos. I rebuilt my image, but the issue persisted for about 3 months!! It was my car audio dock and Apple's hidden "other volume" setting that was the culprit.
At one time, I tried to copy music to my phone, but all new songs were being corrupted. I used 3rd party tools successfully, but iTunes would corrupt the songs when I re-synced my phone. About a month later, Apple fixed the bug - but it was "impossible" to get new songs on my phone.
ITunes crashed during synchronisations and I realised at one point that I had about 25 gigabytes in lost space. I had to erase the phone and recover from a backup to fix the leak, which takes many hours to do. There is no file system fixer for IOS.
In most of these instances, I was snookered because I had no control over my device. Going several months without music was a major inconvenience that Apple failed to solve, despite many attempts. This reinforced that I am not truly in control of my device when such basic things are not possible.
TL;DR Apple "just works" is a myth. It's great when it works and disastrous when it doesn't.
Dead Comment
That's it.
This isn't iOS vs Android and it certainly isn't web vs native. Yes, the article is critical of native apps (and the app store) so I can see how you'd go there but it's a distraction. I see this article as an"I want to use the best mobile web platform possible" argument.
I'm not sure why people are giving anecdotes about switching to iOS from Android like the blog post was about a personal device usage decision vs. a decision to switch developmental platform due to better support for the web.
It's one of the better written blog posts, and has convinced me to look at PWAs. The future he outlines with seamless installations and cross-platform fallback IS something I want to get to.
"I ditched iPhone for Android" is always going to rekindle the iPhone vs Android flame war. The original poster is to blame.
It's a pity Android fans always feel the need to compare everything they do to Apple's software and devices. I guess it's the imposter syndrome that comes with being 2nd to the marketplace?
And 'blaming the poster' is classic victim shaming. Not reading a post and then flaming based on the title is exactly what the web tends to do far too easily (and what we need much less of)
edit: the other shiny Google Web App example, Google Docs, doesn't work either. In Safari it likes to drops keys, and the last time I used it in Chrome (last autumn), it would either crash the whole tab, or freeze it up long enough for it to tell me it gave up and that I should just copy the content and paste into a new document
It seems we're re-living the nightmare of Java "cross-platform compatibility" but with an even worse programming language.
> In fact, I think Progressive Web Apps (PWAs) actually have a huge leg-up on native apps because you can start using them immediately
> There’s just so much less friction for users to start using them
Every web app I've used has required a painful sign-up process, which is usually where I bail out of the process. Way more friction than an app store install.
That signup process can be made better. Nothing fixes the pains of having to download a large app over a potentially slow/spotty network, sacrifice an unknown amount of privacy, then having to twiddle a variable amount of options to get the thing to stop sending you notifications about every single action or event, then after a week of use, having to re-download the large app again because of updates.
You mean like the 12 MB it takes to load a Google Sheet? At least with a native app, once it's downloaded you know it's there and it won't go into an indeterminate state if you happen to try to use a feature that hasn't been loaded yet.
> sacrifice an unknown amount of privacy, then having to twiddle a variable amount of options to get the thing to stop sending you notifications about every single action or event
These are not issues when you have iOS's permissions model
Support for password managers like LastPass is one of the areas where Android shines compared to iOS.
Also, you seem to imply that most apps downloaded from the app store don't require a sign-up process. I beg to differ. And I note that the sign-up process is even more painful outside of a browser (e.g. outside of the browser you can't use LastPass to generate a random password for you)
ex: http://imgur.com/YJXCWxz
How do you feel about using Facebook or Google accounts to sign into third party apps?
I've an iPad 1 on which I can install web pages as web apps by bookmarking them. If the page has the right meta tags [2], the app/page will open as fullscreen. This works fine with many web APIs e.g. WebAudio. I do not know if Android or Ubuntu phone support Web Apps in the same way.
I like this way of distributing simple applications, but take care to check the JavaScript with Closure Compiler.
[1] https://developers.google.com/web/progressive-web-apps [2] https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/AppleA...
He hit the nail on the head at the end. Native React and similar tools are going to simply help the app stores. I have no qualm with app stores as I'm not a webapp diehard.
Just use what makes sense. I never think that is Javascript and take the exact opposite view of the author. I use JS only when I absolutely have to. I prefer to build native platform experiences, which if you're doing more than a CRUD app many times you have to do anyway. I'd work with C#, Swift, Rust, Python and their associated ecosystems before trying to JS All The Things. I find that concept very anti-democratic and regressive.
The Javascript diehard mentality will come to it's final death throes once wasm hits V2 and allows every language the chance to work in the browser. Then the web will truly progress as the author states. Developers will be freed to use whatever they want. Swift on the server, iOS and browser. Let programming platforms and tooling duel it out, not hand the crown to a PL that was created in 1 week. I choose Python, but everyone should be able to use whatever they want as well.
For me, that's the real "progressive web app".
"Unfortunately, the web platform itself wasn’t quite ready for the spotlight yet. It was sort of possible to build web apps that looked and performed like native apps..."
Are you talking about 2007 or 2016? Native apps will always outperform non-native apps - and not because of any emotional or "political" reason - but for perfectly obvious technical reasons. Web apps have an extra layer between themselves and the hardware. Native apps do not (or, at least, the layer is much thinner). Even if web apps increase in speed another 100x, native apps will be right there too.
Look, at the end of the day, use Android or iOS. I don't care. I've used both. But don't switch for this reason.
But I empathize with the author's view. In fact, let's not ignore the fact that some companies that have perfectly useful web pages have dreadful iPhone apps, and in those cases the web experience (even on the phone) is superior. But when you think of the ideal, you are correct and native wins.
I'll support this point: for so many services I'd be ok to trade off native performance for a smoother install process and independance from arbitrary rules. For instance amazon kindle app is severly limited by the app store rules while it has arguably no features that need to be native and does have almost no performance need (I wouldn't care if it took 250ms instead of 100ms to turn pages)
Same goes with apps like google keep or to do list apps. Whole categories of app would be better off as locally installed web apps, if only the OS had better support for them.
That may be true if you only care about performance, but what about battery usage? That's something important on a phone.
True but, on the other hand, native apps require extra steps to be taken by the user (go to the App Store, download the app) which somehow makes user acquisition harder. However we could also argue that once a native app is installed, that increases the chances of user retention, i.e. the user is more likely to use that service again.
I "installed" Flipkart Lite and the Voice Memos demo app to see the state of the world. Clearly it's possible to build some really nice web apps these days! I hope to see more of it moving forward.
[0] https://hackerwebapp.com/
This is monumentally annoying. iPhones are now pretty expensive and don't have this one feature that I used to find incredibly useful. I know there are ways to accomplish this via iCloud, but I neither like nor trust iCloud and don't need it.
I'm still using iTunes 10.7 and iOS 6.1.3 on Mac OS 10.9 Mavericks. It required some framework hacking to make it work, but it's the only way to get offline USB sync and a (beautiful) Retina display.
Oh, and don't forget the ability to sync Safari Bookmarks. I used to be able to sync Notes too, but Apple broke that in 10.8 Mountain Lion.
If any company can offer an ecosystem comparable to Apple circa 2011, I'd be persuaded to switch. For now, I have to stick with my old iPhone 4S. Surprisingly, I haven't really missed out by not upgrading.
I'm not an OSX user, but AFAIK, it supports CardDAV, IMAP and CalDav. That should allow you to sync with ANY phone.
You can sync your calendars and contacts only to and from your Mac if you want to.
So, random thoughts/feedback:
- I wish I could login, comment, maybe even receive comment notifications? Although the last would clearly be an improvement on HN itself.
- I wish I had some preferences available to me, e.g. always open links externally vs. inside the app itself. (I can long-press on a link and select "open in Chrome" of course.)
- Flipkart has some pretty slick animations. The primary thing that jars me about HackerWeb is how abrupt everything is compared to native apps.
Obviously nothing huge; just stuff I didn't know was even possible. Anyway, let me at least grab this opportunity to thank you for your work!
Joke aside, HackerWeb is an awesome example of a webapp done right. It's the only web app on my home screen, and my favorite Hacker news reader on mobile, beating any native app I've tried. Awesome job! Do you have any feedback about issues your encounter for the development? I'm thinking about iOS updates, responsive design with iPad etc... ?
It seems like it's just a way to be able to make cross-origin requests in a browser. Can it even do that? Seemed like it had a bunch of security considerations that make even that not useful.
The primary use cases for service workers today are robust offline support and notifications. More generally service worker gives you broad and very fine grained control over your app's use of the network. Service worker itself doesn't give additional cross-origin request abilities, except by giving more control over caching.
Web Bluetooth is still a work in progress, but you can try it out: https://developers.google.com/web/updates/2015/07/interact-w...
(disclosure: I work on this kind of stuff for Google)
This is my reddit client. https://reddit.premii.com/ - You can login, upvote, reply, save, and tons of other things.
A: Both iOS and android have fully capable web browsers, I'm not sure what's missing here ?
>I’m talking about stuff that QA should have caught, stuff that if anybody at Apple was actually building ? apps this way would have noticed before they released.
A: They do pass QA, that's why features are removed
>One quick example that bit me was how they broke the ability to link out to an external website from within an app running in “standalone” mode. target=_blank no longer worked.
A: Thank god apple no longer allows that, how do you expect a tiny screen to have popups and switch web browser views when you click links ? this is a very bad UX.
>We were running a chat product at the time, so anytime someone pasted a URL into chat it was essentially a trap.
A: I'm not here to judge your decisions or why you did it that way, but IMHO a chat product doesn't really belong in a "web browser"
>The message from Apple seemed clear: web apps are second-class citizens on iOS
A: Exactly, and it is that way for many good reasons.
I see you've mostly switched to android just so you can continue developing webapps, that's okay for you, but it's not a really good reason at all. Don't be like the people who where bashing apple when it decided to remove support for flash player, because that's one of the reasons the web has become the way it is today, i'm not an apple fanboy, i also did the switch from iOS to Android after around 7 years too.
Specifically he mentions his WebRTC video streaming app "just works" on Android Chrome and Firefox.
http://caniuse.com/stream
According to that, it does not work on iOS Safari. Not any version. Ever. Apple only allows Safari on iOS. Therefore, any application that would like to do streaming will have to be native on iOS. Will have to pay Apple a 30% tax. Will have to live with Apple's approval and release schedules.
Apple has allowed Safari to stagnate in significant areas that would permit web apps to compete with native apps. This isn't another iOS vs Android flame war. It's more an indictment of Apple's development priorities on the mobile browser.
He was even comparing iOS to an old android phone, which definitely didn't support it either way and wouldn't even be updatable to support those new features.. and I wouldn't call a browser that doesn't WebRTC as a less capable one.
Blatantly false?
https://itunes.apple.com/au/app/chrome-web-browser-by-google...
The things Apple priorities -- battery life and security, for instance -- don't mean much to most developers who would prefer to be able to use <insert sparkling new web tech here> without worrying about shims, and so on. Problem is, you can't quote that "there are 1.5 billion Android users out there" with this in mind and keep a straight face. A huge proportion of those users are NOT using a browser this group wants to target.
I don't think you realize what he's talking about. Any mobile app has the ability to open links either sending them to the default browser or using a webview overlay. How is not being able to open any links at all a better user experience?
2-He was specifically talking about webapps in "standalone" mode, he specifically mentioned using `target="_blank"`. that kind of behavior does not belong in mobile environments, actually i personally disallow that on my computer too, but that's personal choice.
I think at that point he was referring to the initial appeal of the iphone, when th efirst one was released. there was no Android and no comparable device existent at the time.
>Thank god apple no longer allows that, how do you expect a tiny screen to have popups and switch web browser views when you click links ? this is a very bad UX.
What kind of phone are you using? most things got screens so big that they don't fit into my pocket anymore.
>I'm not here to judge your decisions or why you did it that way, but IMHO a chat product doesn't really belong in a "web browser"
Rocket.chat does exactly that and it is fantastic. Other webapps as well. The key feature being that you can chat on any browser, and using for example electron (the engine based on chrome, also used by the atom editor) you can easily build apps for every platform. And if you add features, they are added everywhere at the same time without a problem
True, but don't forget that the first iPhone was an expensive piece of nothing really, we had no app store nor sdks
>What kind of phone are you using? most things got screens so big that they don't fit into my pocket anymore.
I come from iPhone 3Gs->4->4s->5->6->6s->LG G4, I can say that it's a HUGE screen with bigger resolution than my desktop, but what i meant was the total size of the screen in physical size, i don't want no friggin popups and many windows in a 5" screen
>Rocket.chat does exactly that and it is fantastic. Other webapps as well. The key feature being that you can chat on any browser, and using for example electron (the engine based on chrome, also used by the atom editor) you can easily build apps for every platform. And if you add features, they are added everywhere at the same time without a problem
Ofcourse there are tons of good examples out there, I'm explaining my personal point of view when it comes to web browsers and doing lots of in it that that it was never intended for. I'm fine if you just rename it from web browser to "JS App Container" or whatever, but to me a web browser is just a place to browse pages
Slack built a very successful chat app on top of the desktop browser.
Also a chat app or any of the other fancy webapps we see here does not fit into the definition of a web browser https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_browser
> A: They do pass QA, that's why features are removed
Even if QA catches stuff, it frequently gets ignored by developers and product managers who don't want anything holding up the ship date.
If the software gets frequent updates, this becomes the norm. Bug fixes come in future development cycles, not when they are found.
QA is the least powerful group in any software engineering setup so it's amusing that consumers think of them as God-like powerful creatures who can hold up releases.
That said, I don't see why it hit the frontpage of HN. It doesn't seem to add anything of benefit discussion-wise or show anything new in my opionion
I upvoted it because it showed me how exciting progressive webapps can be. I was somewhat aware of them before, but hadn't realized how close they were to native apps.
It's unfortunate about the title, because the comments devolved into arguing platform wars instead of discussing the ramifications of this new technology.
This article is specifically on professional reasons to use a development platform, and really has hardly anything to do with personal preferences.
This guy is a hacker hero, and he is one that you don't know.