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disillusionist · 7 months ago
I personally adore the Peasant Railgun and other such silly tropes generated by player creativity! Lateral problem solving can be one of the most fun parts of the DnD experience. However, these shenanigans often rely on overly convoluted or twisted ways of interpreting the rules that often don't pass muster of RAW (Rules As Written) and certainly not RAI (Rules As Intended) -- despite vociferous arguments by motivated players. Any DM who carefully scrutinizes these claims can usually find the seams where the joke unravels. The DnD authors also support DMs here when they say that DnD rules should not be interpreted as purely from a simulationist standpoint (whether physics, economy, or other) but exist to help the DM orchestrate and arbitrate combat and interactions.

In the case of the Peasant Railgun, here are a few threads that I would pull on: * The rules do not say that passed items retain their velocity when passed from creature to creature. The object would have the same velocity on the final "pass" as it did on the first one. * Throwing or firing a projectile does not count as it "falling". If an archer fires an arrow 100ft, the arrow does not gain 100ft of "falling damage".

Of course, if a DM does want to encourage and enable zany shenanigans then all the power to them!

fenomas · 7 months ago
The underlying issue with TFA is that it's a player describing a thing they want to attempt - and then also describing whether the attempt succeeds, and what the precise result is.

And that's... not D&D? I mean players could certainly attempt to have several people pass an object quickly with the Ready action, under RAW. But what happens next isn't "the rod speeds up to such and such a speed", it's "the DM decides whether the peasants need to roll a dexterity check" and so forth.

And to me as a DM, that's why I find articles like TFA annoying. Not because it's confused about fall damage (though it is!), but because it's confused about who decides whether to apply fall damage!

aspenmayer · 7 months ago
> And that's... not D&D?

Some people are there because their life is not their own, and they want to live freely in the game; some people are there because their life is an exercise in control, and they want to play with the win conditions.

Every table and game is unique. It’s a microcosm of society that is simultaneously everything to anyone and yet no one thing to everyone. It’s a way to directly engage with the Other via metaphor and indirection.

This is D&D.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zng5kRle4FA

rtkwe · 7 months ago
That's how D&D goes, player comes up with the plan, tries to argue what they think the rules say should happen and tries to convince the DM if they disagree. DM gets ultimate say but it's still a collaborative process at it's core.
tiltowait · 7 months ago
TFA is actually the first time I've seen the peasant railgun interpretation that actually causes damage. Other conversations I've seen all concluded it wouldn't do any damage, which made it even funnier depending on your point of view.

Two of my favorite bits of D&D (3.5) logic:

* Mounting a horse is a free action. Therefore, much like the peasant railgun, you could set up saddle highways: a post every five feet, with a saddle on top. Then, you mount and dismount between cities as one gigantic free action, allowing instantaneous travel.

* Per the rules governing object visibility at distance, the moon was invisible.

* Arguably, once you started drowning, you could not stop drowning, even if removed from water.

fc417fc802 · 7 months ago
> Per the rules governing object visibility at distance, the moon was invisible.

The devs forgot to special case it in the LoD algorithm.

IAmBroom · 7 months ago
You're making an assumption about the distance to the moon.
fishtoaster · 7 months ago
My take has always been:

1. D&D mechanics, like all games, are a simplification of the real world using primitives like "firing a bow" and "passing an item" and "downing a potion"

2. The real world is fractaly deep and uses primitives like "plank length" and "quark spin"

3. Therefore there will always be places where the real world and the simplification don't line up. Finding those gaps might be a fun meme, but it's not an exploit. We play with the simplification's primitives, not the real-world physics'.

ekidd · 7 months ago
My approach is that there is a tension between three things:

1. The "combat simulator" built into the rules. I run this according to the spirit of the rules, so that players' investments in classes and feats pays off as expected. Otherwise my players feel cheated.

2. The simulation of the world. This is important because it makes the world feel real and believable (and because as DM, I get many of my plot ideas by "simulating" consequences).

3. The story. The campaign should ideally tell a story. Sometimes this means involving what I think of as "the Rule of Cool (But It's Only Cool the First Time)."

The "peasant railgun", unfortunately, fails all three tests. It isn't really part of the intended combat rules. It doesn't make sense when simulating the world. And it probably doesn't fit into the campaign's narrative because it's too weird.

On the other hand, if a player proposes something really cool that fits into the logic of the world, and that also fits into the story, then I'll look for ways to make it happen.

Let's say the PCs find 200 peasant archers, and set them up on a high hill, and have them all rain down arrows on a single target. That seems like it ought to work, plus it's a great story about bringing the villagers together to save the day. So in this case, I'll happily handwave a bunch of rules, and declare "rain of arrows" to be a stupidly powerful AoE.

But different tables like different things, so this isn't one-size-fits-all advice!

pavel_lishin · 7 months ago
> primitives like "plank length" and "quark spin"

I'm going to be that guy - because I love being that guy, and I won't apologize for it - and point out that we're not even sure if those are primitives!

altruios · 7 months ago
> The rules do not say that passed items retain their velocity when passed from creature to creature. The object would have the same velocity on the final "pass" as it did on the first one.

Since this wooden rod travels several miles in a 6 second time frame - traveling more than 500M/s on average - don't we have to assume it accumulates?

Falling damage is the mechanism that makes the most sense to shoehorn in there. Using an improvised weapon on a rod already traveling more than 500M/s seems even more clumsy, as well as calculating the damage more wibbly-wobbly.

There's also the rule of cool. If it makes the story better/ more enjoyable: have at it.

plorkyeran · 7 months ago
The problem with this interpretation is that it relies on hyper-literal RAW when it's convenient and physics when it's convenient. If you apply the rules of physics to the wooden rod, then the answer is simple: the peasant railgun cannot make the rod travel several miles in 6 seconds. If you apply D&D RAW, the rod can travel infinitely far, but does not have momentum and doesn't do anything when it reaches its destination. You only get the silly result when you apply RAW to one part of it and ignore it for another part.
disillusionist · 7 months ago
If we were trying to create a real-time simulation system, then YES you are totally correct. However, many table-top RPGs rules only make sense in the context of adjudicating atomic actions (such as one creature passing an item to another) rather than multi-part or longer running activities. Readied actions are already a bug-a-boo that break down when pushed to extremes. While not listed in the rules, it might make sense for a DM to limit the distance or number of hand-offs that the "rail" can travel in a single round to something "reasonable" based on their own fiat.
da_chicken · 7 months ago
> Since this wooden rod travels several miles in a 6 second time frame - traveling more than 500M/s on average - don't we have to assume it accumulates?

No, we don't.

The most recent D&D Dungeon Master's Guide actually puts a note in the book[0] for things like this: The D&D rules are not a physics engine. The D&D rules are a simple framework for creating a game world, but that's not the same thing as being a 3d game engine or a generative data model. It's a game where you're expected to resolve complex events with a single die roll. It's not Unreal Engine 5 or Autodesk Inventor or COMSOL Multiphysics.

Just like D&D's morality and ethics system (alignment) falls over and cries when you poke it with a Philosophy 101 moral quandary, the game's event resolution is not intended for you to model the Large Hadron Collider.

[0]: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/br-2024/the-basics#Pla...

PhasmaFelis · 7 months ago
> Since this wooden rod travels several miles in a 6 second time frame - traveling more than 500M/s on average - don't we have to assume it accumulates?

The basic assumption here is that the rules as written beat physics and common sense. When you play that game, you have to do it rigorously. You can't say that rules trump physics one moment, and physics trump rules the next.

> There's also the rule of cool. If it makes the story better/ more enjoyable: have at it.

That does rule out the Peasant Railgun more thoroughly than any rules argument.

patmcc · 7 months ago
>>Since this wooden rod travels several miles in a 6 second time frame - traveling more than 500M/s on average - don't we have to assume it accumulates?

If we assume it does accumulate, then we also have to assume peasant #2000 couldn't possibly pass it successfully.

shitpostbot · 7 months ago
It's far more reasonable to assume it moves infinitely fast between peasants, but comes to a halt at each one.

Or if not infinitely fast, but we're going to assume a chain could accelerate it indefinitely, than it's still more reasonable to assume each pass happens exactly how fast it needs to for 6s/num_peasants, comes to a halt, and then moves to the next. That way all the peasants have the same, minimum, speed, Instead of some slow, other absurdly fast based on an arbitrarily assumed, linear, acceleration.

(Why not assume exponential acceleration and say after 10 passe s it hits light speed)

bee_rider · 7 months ago
Would I expect a DM to accept a peasant railgun? No.

Would I love to play in a campaign where we are dungeon-crawling scientists who are investigating the theory that we are actually living in a poor simulation? Hell yeah. Just imagine your d&d university admissions departments working out that people somehow can be sorted precisely on a scale of -5 to +5 in terms of natural competency for any skill…

devilbunny · 7 months ago
It was abandoned partway through a second "series", but it's still out there: Harry Potter and the Natural 20. Fanfic, obviously, but a very amusing take on how you could theoretically break D&D by applying Potterworld physics (or vice versa).

The peasant railgun was a footnote to one of the early chapters. Author specified that he would never, ever allow most of the munchkin tricks he wrote about in a game that he DM'd, but since crazy munchkin tricks are the source of a lot of the humor in the writing, he left them in the fiction.

IAmBroom · 7 months ago
Nah, there's always sub-integer Charisma modifiers to those results.

It's not like Behavioral Science is objective, in our world or theirs...

whatshisface · 7 months ago
There is no way the rules for gun could be used to carry five people at seventy miles per hour. For one thing, the idea that a, "piston rod" could somehow catch the bullet without being damaged is preposterous, not to mention the idea that it could turn some kind of "crank shaft." How fast do you think this, "flywheel" would have to be moving? While I admit that we've used the fact that some low-velocity bullets can't penetrate thick plates of steel armor in the past, the idea that the rotation of the armor could push a second bullet back in to the barrel of a gun that had just been fired is beyond reason. No, I do not want to hear about how you've put the mechanism from the flour mill we fought in last session into a metal box and filled it with oil. Roll for initiative.
jagermo · 7 months ago
Player creativity should be rewarded. I'd let them use it once, but if they try it more than that, the bad guys hear about it and suddenly they'll look at the wrong end of a bunch of those railguns.
moconnor · 7 months ago
This; applying the falling object rule makes no sense. But we can compare it to a falling object that has attained the same velocity - this will have fallen (under Earth gravity) 48k feet, or the equivalent of 800d6 damage.
standeven · 7 months ago
If you’re using the falling object rule then cap it at an appropriate terminal velocity, maybe 200 km/h.
hooverd · 7 months ago
Did you use ChatGPT/an LLM for this comment or do you just write Like That?
bluefirebrand · 7 months ago
LLMs had to learn from somewhere, a lot of internet comments write Like That
disillusionist · 7 months ago
I just Write Like That. It always takes me longer to write things than intended because I tend to overthink things, too. :/
y-curious · 7 months ago
Welcome to the erosion of trust we are seeing live. Soon we won't trust anything outside of a speaker we can touch physically.
max_on_hn · 7 months ago
ChatGPT was sticky for me very early because its writing style reminded me of my own ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
otikik · 7 months ago
It does read very chatgpt-y
otikik · 7 months ago
This reminds me of the "Dual Octo-cat Flail", invented by a friend of mine.

A flail is basically a stick with a pointy ball chained to one end. It does one attack per turn.

A dual flail attacks twice (it has two balls).

Now replace each ball by an octopus. And each octopi is holding a cat on each of its 8 tentacles. So when you attack, the cephalopods attack, and that means that 16 angry felines attack. I think at the time they came up with this animals had some sort of guaranteed damage exception in some cases (perhaps in a previous DND version?).

Anyway it was completely OP.

xg15 · 7 months ago
I hope there were some buttered toasts attached to the cats as well, for additional infinite energy.
Uehreka · 7 months ago
I relish any opportunity to post this link: https://youtu.be/Z8yW5cyXXRc?si=Upb6xmcOcPWzTDLb
dexwiz · 7 months ago
How do you explain an octopus holding 8 cats, let alone keeping the octopodes alive for more than a day?
Yizahi · 7 months ago
Probably there was no need for that, because game evening has ended while everyone was arguing about correct plural name for octopuses :)
nartho · 7 months ago
It'd need to be enchanted with "Create Water".
otikik · 7 months ago
The cats are attached to the octopi same way the octopi are attached to the flail, obviously.

As per keeping them alive: they take short rests, like everyone else

pavel_lishin · 7 months ago
A wizard did it.
Klathmon · 7 months ago
Our group once badgered our DM at the time into allowing the parties pet goat to deal some minimal amount of damage in combat. Then we backtracked and bought a hundred of them from the local shepherd and had a small goat army for a bit.

Unfortunately there was a flood shortly after and our goat army was lost

tonyarkles · 7 months ago
My experience with a few fun DMs is that you have to be really careful with the shenanigans. I'm not surprised at all about the flood that took out your goats. I'm impressed with the restraint demonstrated by your DM in fact... one of my old DMs would have almost certainly done something more damaging first; off the top of my head, good chance we would have woken up to discover that the goats had eaten all of our clothing in the middle of the night.
ecshafer · 7 months ago
Perfect chance for the army of goats to be corrupted by dark magic and become evil goats that are intent on killing the party.
gwd · 7 months ago
Or, you know, having to deal with all the goat excrement; or either stopping for several hours three times a day to "pasture" (and having to find a place where the locals will allow you to do that), or carrying grain for 100 goats around with you.
noelwelsh · 7 months ago
I think of a spectrum of RPG participants. At one end you have the mini-maxers, who want to squeeze every advantage possible out of the rules, and at the other end you have the story tellers, for whom the rules are a just framework to hang a story on. I've always been at the story teller end and while I appreciate the ingenuity in the peasant railgun I'm not very interested in playing a game where it features. If I'm going for slapstick I'd rather have a setting that explicitly encourages and handles it (e.g. Paranoia). OTOH, navigating different player desires is one of the big challenges of RPGs, and if people at the table really want to play a certain I think it has be allowed to an extent.
spacemadness · 7 months ago
Not exactly tabletop, but this is the issue I have with every Pathfinder build I see for Wrath of the Righteous. Everyone dips into these nonsensical combinations to get a better armor rating, etc. So then you get a Paladin that decided to become a witch for part of the campaign for “reasons”. You can roleplay something, sure, but it’s rather forced by the numbers.
MrDrMcCoy · 7 months ago
Pathfinder 1e had so many books and character options for broken builds that my table came up with this rule: if you can't hold the books your character needs in one hand for a minute, you can't play that character. Gives me warm and fuzzy memories :D
pavel_lishin · 7 months ago
I've only played a little bit of Pathfinder 2e, but it seems like a game explicitly aimed at min-maxers. There are so many various conditions, so many ways things interact, so many ways to build a character badly that you basically have to be a munchkin to build something playable.

If you're like noelwelsh or me, and prefer to lean into the storytelling and roleplaying, there are significantly better options than Pathfinder.

(And better than D&D of course, but everyone knows how to play D&D. :/)

izacus · 7 months ago
Sadly Owlcat outright seems to encourage that since many encounters in the game have such bizarrely min/maxed characters as well and even on normal difficulty you can get softlocked if you didn't make sure to get a spread of important spells/feats.

My biggest issue with their games really - they give you so many options so build characters and then take them away with combat design.

Semaphor · 7 months ago
It’s because those online guides are only relevant for people playing on unfair, yet those guides never/rarely mention that. Even on core I can do pure RP builds (with TB combat at least), all that minmaxing is only really important for the "I’d rather play a puzzle" difficulty.
gwd · 7 months ago
> I think of a spectrum of RPG participants. At one end you have the mini-maxers, who want to squeeze every advantage possible out of the rules, and at the other end you have the story tellers, for whom the rules are a just framework to hang a story on.

I dunno, I've always been both? I've done damage output analysis in spreadsheets to choose the best feats or spells; and the DM was always surprised at how my different skill point bonuses added up to make massively improbable things probable. But I always thought massively improbable was the point of the game; and he always managed to turn it into a good story. I never would have suggested a peasant railgun, that's just kind of silly.

foota · 7 months ago
I'd argue in some ways it's a triangle, with RAW vs RAI being the third point. Someone can minmax either under RAW/taken to the extreme, or under RAI or they can do silly things under RAI or RAW/home brewed.
ourmandave · 7 months ago
That's what session 0 is for.
pavel_lishin · 7 months ago
A note to my fellow DMs: if your players badger you into allowing this, remember that their enemies - typically BBEGs like Kings, Dukes, Wizards, Liches & the like - are much more likely to have two thousand peasants at their disposal than the party is.
joseda-hg · 7 months ago
BBEG: "I have to give this one to you heroes, I thought peasants were a lot less useful than you did apparently, time to make use of those conquered villages I guess"
pavel_lishin · 7 months ago
"Looks like I'm going to have to conquer a lot more villages. Say, come to think of it, is there any reason the peasants have to be alive to fire the railgun? I don't have to feed zombies..."
wizzwizz4 · 7 months ago
And if the players seek out the right artefacts of power (or bribe a level 17 wizard), they may be able to Wish away the loophole, bringing their nigh-indestructible enemy back down to mortal (unmortal?) levels.
pavel_lishin · 7 months ago
I was just chatting with a player about how shitty the Wish spell, as written, is.
pugio · 7 months ago
When I was a kid I had a character that could fly. I realized that a Decanter of Endless Water put out a pretty powerful constant thrust. Then a Helmet of Freedom of Movement could be interpreted to remove all excess friction due to win resistance (forget the details but it was something about removing any factor that would inhibit your movement). Constant acceleration and no friction... Unlimited speed.

I actually sat down and worked out all the equations based on the mass of my character and the amount of thrust the decanter provided. Our party would be deep in the wilderness somewhere and I'd say " I nip back to town to pick up some supplies, with acceleration and deacceleration it takes me 17 minutes".

Looking back, I think I was a pretty annoying player, but my DM was very patient. I guess he could see I put a lot of work into the scheme. It was also probably the most exciting application of physics I had encountered in my life so far.

gridspy · 7 months ago
I think your DM might have changed their tune had you used an OP shield and turned yourself into a flying projectile.

It sounds like your cool application of physics was interesting and harmless. Good on you and your DM for making it part of the fun at the table.

robocat · 7 months ago
https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/4615-decanter-of-endle...

abridged: speak the command word "Geyser" produces 30 gallons of water that gushes forth in a geyser 30 feet long and 1 foot wide. As a bonus action while holding the decanter, you can aim the geyser at a creature you can see within 30 feet of you. The water stops pouring out at the start of your next turn.

Doesn't seem like the decanter has thrust. To design something that thrusts would require your character to have a deep understanding of D&D physics (or maybe just some deadly experimentation?!)

Trying to mix mundane physics and universe book rules (i.e. peasant railgun) in a D&D universe sounds like a dangerous pastime for a character.

Cue the old SF story where Hitler wants to control a portal to other planets. Version 1 destroyed when other end moved into a red sun creating a radioactive lance, Version 2 destroyed when other end put into an ocean creating high pressure hose.

Do you want your character to magically refine Plutonium, Madame Curie?

pugio · 7 months ago
I said "as a kid" - I am not so young as to have played D&D 5e as a child.

I was referring to 3e, when the "simulation" aspect of the game was more heavily emphasized. See: https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Decanter_of_Endless_Water

> “Geyser” produces a 20-foot-long, 1-foot-wide stream at 30 gallons per round. ... The geyser effect causes considerable back pressure, requiring the holder to make a DC 12 Strength check to avoid being knocked down.

It was that last line that initially sparked the idea. Given the stated effects, this didn't seem like so much of a physics+rules stretch. The no-friction freedom of movement may have been more beyond the pale. Unfortunately 5e deliberately tried to close all the fun ways one could abuse various items.

rtkwe · 7 months ago
The problem comes from trying to mix real world physics with game mechanics only in ways that benefit the players and also applying rules where they don't fit [0]. Only the game mechanics allow you to pass it between the peasants so fast and the game already tells you what happens the last peasant throws it and it's a (likely non-proficient) attack with whatever item they're passing with the same range limitations that javelin or improvised weapon has. The item is only on average moving 1900 mph but it's really just being rapidly handed from person to person so the true velocity is a rapid sawtooth as the person moves it to pass it to the next person, enabled by the power of RAW itself to these feats.

[0] This is just an object being passed between creatures not a falling object so the Falling Object rules are irrelevant.

Yizahi · 7 months ago
If anyone enjoys this kind of foolery, I recommend a Harry Potter x DnD crossover fanfiction: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8096183/1/Harry-Potter-and-the-...

Main character is a self-aware munchkin mage transported to the HP world and DnD rules apply to him only.

Unfortunately the story is unfinished on the most interesting point, but the finished amount chapters is more than enough :)

pavel_lishin · 7 months ago
I've also read the HPMOR series (it was ... not something I'd recommend), and started one of the ratfics about D&D world - and bounced off of it quickly.