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tptacek · a year ago
One way I try to get my head around things like this is to skip to a section I understand deeply and see what they said. Here, the claim is made:

Don't try to get a compliance certificate at the last minute. Preparing for and conducting an audit such as for PCI DSS or SOC 2 from start to finish is a lengthy process, ranging from six to twelve months for most startups. Starting early and maintaining compliance is cheaper than starting late and doing rework.

This is basically the opposite of the advice I would give a startup. SOC2 attestations in particular are easy to get, and are a waste of money to obtain preemptively before there are purchase orders on the line for them.

There are things you should start doing early that lay the groundwork for attestations, but you should be doing them anyways, even if you never plan to get a SOC2 (and if a big-ticket customer never demands it, you shouldn't SOC2). That's stuff like setting up single sign-on and having protected git branches; simple best practices.

Anyone else want to spot check other parts of this document? I wouldn't feel qualified to challenge most of it.

femiagbabiaka · a year ago
Great approach. I ctrl-F'd for databases, good info there generally. The only thing that gave me pause: a startup doesn't need to focus on SQL vs. NoSQL in 2025 with such good json support in the most popular SQL databases. Just use PostgreSQL or MySQL -- whichever your engineers have more experience with -- use CloudSQL or RDS which will take care of the hard stuff like backups and replication for you, use read replicas for BI with a good visualization tool, you'll be good with that for a good while before you need to fork over 5/6 figures for Snowflake or anything else.
Swizec · a year ago
> use read replicas for BI with a good visualization tool

Put up 2 or 3 read replicas, split your queries so writes happen to main and reads come from replicas (supported out of the box by many modern ORMs), and you can scale to millions in daily active users for most startup workloads.

Really the hard part of BI is that folks who need the info don’t wanna learn SQL. The ones who can do SQL, will struggle to keep up with your changing schema.

SOLAR_FIELDS · a year ago
I was just commenting to a colleague recently about the significant improvements RDBMS have gotten for json support over the last decade. For instance, keys below the first level in Postgres jsonb fields were not indexable around a decade ago. Now you can do GIN index and other options that are rather sophisticated.
cyberax · a year ago
> use read replicas for BI with a good visualization tool

Ugh. That sounds good on paper, but in practice it can become a problem. You're making your _database_ schema a part of the public API. It's an example Hyrum's Law, people will, sooner rather than later, start depending on internal details of the data representation.

And your development velocity will crater, as you'll now need to update all the reports (that are not necessarily even tracked in version control!).

Investing some time early to add code to pull out the data relevant for analytics can be worthwhile.

There's also a question of the personal information.

closeparen · a year ago
>with such good json support in the most popular SQL databases

Wait, was that the reason people were doing NoSQL? JSON support? I thought it was about sharding, write scalability, etc.

DanielHB · a year ago
> use read replicas for BI

Yes this is good advice, until you get really large scale you don't need anything more fancy than some SQL in a read replica.

mikeocool · a year ago
Yeah, in my experience, most companies who are going to 1) do business with early stage startups and 2) want SOC2 report, are going to be totally fine with writing “startup X will get their SOC2 type 1 in the next six months” into the contract and moving forward, so long as someone technical can get on the phone with their IT people convince them you are reasonably competent.
gizmov21 · a year ago
Made an account just to say that I respectfully disagree solely when it comes to accounting and supply chain processes in an enterprise ERP. Unwinding un-auditable processes costs so much f’ing time and money while the business still has to run that I’ve found it to be cheaper and better to be auditable from day 1, in this one specific instance.
Tostino · a year ago
I built one of the Trade Promotion Management platforms used in the NA market, and couldn't agree more. It's a nightmare trying to be auditable if you didn't think about it from the start.
bri3d · a year ago
There’s being auditABLE and being auditED. Honestly I think the article’s take is smarter for a less experienced or skilled founding team and tptacek’s is better for a more experienced team. Paying auditors to look at screenshots and CSVs is a giant waste of money until it’s not, but at the same time, letting bad practice ossify until it’s expensive to remove is also a mistake.
stult · a year ago
I think this advice may vary in applicability across industries. If you're selling a B2B product that touches PII, you're definitely going to need SOC2 if you don't want to be laughed out the door during pitch meetings. And depending on your funding level, using an automatic SOC2 compliance checklist service like Secureframe may only be a few thousand dollars but will ensure not only that you are following those best practices but also in an idiosyncratically SOC2 manner that will make for an easy audit. Not a huge investment relative to the dev and project management time it takes to get onto SOC2 track with an organization that already has deeply engrained non-compliant processes in place.
tptacek · a year ago
Well, we run a public cloud, and before I joined up I spent the preceding 5 years at a consulting firm that ran the security teams of B2B companies that touched PII, including some in ludicrously sensitive problem domains (retail mortgage financing!) and I stand by what I wrote.

Further: while checklisting tools may only cost a couple thousand dollars, the actual process of getting a SOC2 attestation isn't the real expense. I could get OWASP WebGoat a SOC2 attestation if I wanted to (a ham sandwich would be even easier). The actual expense in SOC2 is the engineering work you do in support of it. Those checklist tools are fine if you know exactly what you're doing and don't let them add any engineering work, but what I've seen happen repeatedly is a SOC2 checklist from a tool leading a team into building a pasteurized process cheese food security practice, with IDS and WAF and server agents and code scanners and Nessus scans, at great expense.

morsecodist · a year ago
I am new to compliance but this seems super strange to me. Based on my cursory read of SOC2 you need a ton of evidence gathering for months leading up to your audit. How wold you know what to retroactively have if you didn't spend time on it?

SOC2 attestations being easy to get also runs counter to what I have heard from every single other person on this topic. Generally what I hear is that it is extremely hard and time consuming. What am I missing? I would love to be wrong here and for this to be easy.

film42 · a year ago
Using something like Vanta or Drata makes life a lot easier. I've done SOC2/PCI audits in fintech where we change tools every year (meaning we reinvented the wheel every year), and I've now done it at my own startup using Drata. Auditors feel more comfortable, you'll feel more comfortable, etc. Even if you're not planning on doing it right away, just sign up and have it start tracking your progress.

It's time consuming, but not all consuming. I think I spend <2 hours a week on compliance now that we're set up.

The "fun" part was engineering ways to implement things like PHI scanning and WAF protection as cheaply as possible. There's almost always a nearly-free cron job/python script/slackbot alternative to every "mandatory" 5-6 figure SaaS subscription in the space.

tptacek · a year ago
I posted two guides downthread. It's hard because people make it hard, or let people make it hard on them.
CaffeineLD50 · a year ago
The section on performance management is circular and vague: a good one is motivating and a bad one is demotivating. OK. Glad we got that out of the way.

The whole intro reads like a puffy resume and lots of gilding. Even a section of gushing testimonials.

And he puts his name on the title so you don't gotta read the author byline. Total cheese.

jyounker · a year ago
The section on performance management is at least five pages long, and it covers compensation, leveling, job titles, PIPs, and firing. Perhaps you mistook the introduction to the section for the entirety of the section?
xyzzy_plugh · a year ago
> There are things you should start doing early that lay the groundwork for attestations, but you should be doing them anyways, even if you never plan to get a SOC2 (and if a big-ticket customer never demands it, you shouldn't SOC2). That's stuff like setting up single sign-on and having protected git branches; simple best practices.

This is in many ways the spirit of SOC2, no? There are a lot of startup founders, far more than I'd like, who would purposefully eschew such "simple best practices" unless they had an axe like a SOC2 audit swinging over them.

I think you're both right, for what it's worth, and my take is that you are more aligned with TFA than you perceive.

tptacek · a year ago
How are we both right? I think you literally should wait until the last minute to start a SOC2 process.
ozim · a year ago
I think that is what author meant actually.

Downside is there is a lot of startup founders that will need help getting the basics in place.

I worked in place where 2 business guys hired 4-5 freelancers and as freelancers took high salaries not even one of them had any clue about setting up infra or SDLC let alone secure SDLC. They would write the code and not give a damn about anything besides that.

Business guys thought they have great technical guys because they were expensive.

tptacek · a year ago
You absolutely do not need an SDLC process in order to get SOC2 attested.
normie3000 · a year ago
SDLC?
Eridrus · a year ago
Just wanted to +1 this comment and say Vanta made SOC2 way more intimidating than it was.

What made it easy was talking to a startup that wanted soc2 and had it themselves who recommended an auditor who helped us untangle what was actually required.

It took a couple of months to get type 1 from start to finish with very part time attention.

erispoe · a year ago
It's a good idea to just not do stupid shit that would make it very painful to actually get compliant. Get vendors who have certs, keep infra minimal (which means not infra team). The more you do in house the more painful compliance will be. Buy, and buy from certified providers, simple. Manage identity centrally, keep all your secrets in a secret manager, use git and do code reviews. You're right all things you should be doing anyway.
silasb · a year ago
Doesn't "Buy, and buy from certified providers, simple. Manage identity centrally...." contradict each other?
edoceo · a year ago
Exactly; lots of over engineering/pre-optimisation in this. It's less for startups and more for startups-burning-vc-money-while-team-builds-resume.
whitepoplar · a year ago
Do you know of a good resource which describes these simple best practices?
samstave · a year ago
Having gone through quite a number of compliance audits... the one thing that is good in that advice, is that many items in an audit are just a checklist of questions, such as

do you have a policy for XYZ?

or confirm you have a process for "thing"

So what ends up happeneing is if you feel stressed about an audit, just getting a list of the audit, you will realize how much you can just say "yes" to and feel less daunted by the audit.

So, its a good self-check even if youre just crossing out the things you should have already have a framework for.

film42 · a year ago
I read all the time about folks who become a VP/CTO and stop coding. Management skills are not coding skills. I know it. But I can't for the life of me figure out why folks hang up their keyboards and let their first super power go to waste. You can be a technical CTO from start to finish. Treat your team and the company like a service that needs active contribution, maintenance, and on-call support; and also, get your hands dirty building by yourself and with your team.
Aurornis · a year ago
At VP/CTO level you don’t have time to contribute and maintain code. If you do, the VP or CTO title is probably symbolic, like when someone is a “CTO” in a team of 3 at a startup.

The real problem is when people take early career roles that leave no time to code: They take architect roles where they just draw boxes on whiteboards and hop from meeting to meeting, or they accept a role labeled “tech lead” that is actually management in disguise.

They get comfortable not writing code and years pass until one day they need a new job. Now they have to interview for coding roles while confronting the fact that they spent a good portion of their programming career not writing any code. It doesn’t come back fast for many.

film42 · a year ago
IMO the architect-leader role is an attempt at scratching the itch of not being able to code. I've worked with leaders that would spend any extra time they had building projects in new frontier tech to understand the nuances behind the marketing, and I'm sure we've all worked with folks that blindly parrot the marketing speak in design meetings.

You don't have to always be building things to be a great leader, but I place more trust in a company with a technical CTO.

upcoming-sesame · a year ago
I tend to agree but also think AI is changing this narrative. Now some of the coding can be done by LLM and the "architect" skills are more important
scarface_74 · a year ago
Why would I have to interview for coding roles?

I was an active developer from 1996 - 2018. Between 2016 - mid 2020 I started transitioning to team lead/architect roles with some coding until I did a pivot to cloud consulting specializing in app dev. First it was 50/50 coding/strategy until now where it is 10/90 coding/strategy talking to customers and leading teams.

I can tell you it was a lot easier finding full time jobs both in 2023 and 2024 as a “staff architect” at both product companies and consulting companies than regular old “senior” [1] enterprise software development jobs. Especially working remotely.

Every job posted for generic developers gets hundreds of applications and most of the applicants are probably good enough to do the job. I applied for hundreds of jobs between both times I was looking and heard crickets. They were plan B jobs that actually paid less.

On the other hand, in 2023 I had three offers for team lead/architect jobs in three weeks and one offer in 2024 based on replying to one internal recruiter that reached out to me.

Besides, I keep between 9-12 months of expenses in a liquid savings account outside of retirement savings. That gives me plenty of runway to prep for coding interviews if I had to.

[1] “Senior” roles at most non tech companies mean “you codez real gud” not that you operate at any different level of “scope”, “impact” or “ambiguity” than a mid level developer.

ajmurmann · a year ago
In my own experience it's a matter of only having that much time in the day. For 7 years I had somewhere between 20-25 people I was directly or indirectly responsible for. There was just not enough time to get anything useful done in the code and my time was much better spent solving problems that others couldn't. A few times I was able to pick up some really simple change just to get the experience first hand to go through all our processes and see where we can do better.

I always kept coding nights and weekends but it's just not the same and over time you are gonna get a little rusty. That said I greatly enjoyed getting my hand dirty all day during a sabbatical I'm taking.

jayd16 · a year ago
When you're not just an IC, you have other priorities. That means your IC work can be derailed at any moment. _That_ means you can't take on work anywhere near the critical path or you're just blocking others or handing things off.

Reviews? Sure. Design meetings? Sure. But taking critical work will end up causing issues.

mikeshi42 · a year ago
I don't think there's a right answer here, but there's definitely a point where your code contributions are much lower leverage than for example trying to recruit the next set of critical engineers, working on the technical roadmap to keep ahead of the competition, or making sure the engineering org is aligned with the rest of the company.

Any lines of code the VP/CTO could write, could likely be written by someone else on their team (and their team's quality could be even better) - but all the other items I listed is likely only something the VP/CTO could do the best at in the company. It's quite a rational decision to largely give up hands-on technical work for what's more important for your team and company.

guappa · a year ago
Can you really do any of that if you forgot how it's done?
petesergeant · a year ago
> You can be a technical CTO from start to finish

My last CTO role (team of 40) had me absolutely over capacity from day one, and I am _good_ at time management. I would rather have been programming 50% of the time, but there just was no time, and no support structure in place I could hand stuff off to; I had to painstakingly build that, which was yet another reason I had no time.

I like the idea of continuing to code, but usually that’s not what you’re being paid for, and while I consider myself a very strong developer, they can be purchased for less than the CTO’s salary, rather than the more expensive CTO doing the work. FWIW I went back to IC after a few years and plan to stay that way for the rest of my career.

yard2010 · a year ago
I would love to know how and why you made that decision and how it's going for you (good I bet), can you please elaborate?
maayank · a year ago
What were good time management resources for you?
osigurdson · a year ago
Also, many start-ups seem to do fine without formal management structure up to 50 or more employees. The CEO / CTO is still coding, talking to customers, hiring, and making the product better.

Getting "all managery" in early stages seems like a huge misstep to me. The skills needed to successfully create a start-up are far more rare than those needed to be a good manager.

dowager_dan99 · a year ago
I really dislike almost everything Oracle and Larry Ellison, but he had an early-days adage "There are 2 jobs at Oracle: you're either building software or selling it". At a early-stage startup most people should be doing both.
scarface_74 · a year ago
The job of a CTO is strategy. The last thing you want is a manager that codes. They always end up either being shitty managers who don’t do the things that I need from a manager - making sure the team gets the resources we need, prioritization, big picture, etc - or they end up being shitty developers because they can’t keep their commitments because of management responsibilities.

Development is not a “super power”. Developers are a dime a dozen and if you look at the leveling guidelines of every well known tech company, how well you code only makes a difference up to the mid level.

Knowing what to develop, knowing how to deal with business, how to lead an implementation, managing trade offs, “dealing with ambiguity”, etc is the differentiator.

cyberax · a year ago
> The job of a CTO is strategy. The last thing you want is a manager that codes.

For a large company the size of Google? Yes. For a startup? No.

jkingsbery · a year ago
Mostly because of the Maker's Schedule vs. Manager's Schedule (https://www.paulgraham.com/makersschedule.html) issue. It's really hard to be in a role that deals with a lot of randomization and then sit and focus for 4 hours straight on something.
rhubarbtree · a year ago
It’s hard but not impossible. First thing is to realise you’re going to work longer hours than everyone else.
whilenot-dev · a year ago
I've also had the experience where the CTO was activly coding, 80% of the code base were theirs, and the company was hiring software engineers who could and wanted to fix up their stuff - there was this true luxury problem for this start-up: bad bugs everywhere, but patient and resilient customers. They found 4 willing engineers with good chemistry at first, at least up until they were constantly vetoed by the CTO in their decisions, because the teams best practices conflicted with the CTO-way of "getting things done" - it's a rigid hierachy after all, and not a democracy.
dowager_dan99 · a year ago
I'm a first-time Director at a SW company with a total org under me of ~30 people in 5 different subject areas. I struggle with what you highlight, but it's impossible for me to go deep in all these areas. MY boss is the CTO and he talks about "T-shaped" or broadly across and narrowly deep. I really don't like this, but the reality is I view myself as senior-dev level in one area, int in another, junior in 2, and barely familiar with the third - and I'm by far the most technical of all the Director/VPs
gorgoiler · a year ago
For me, the hacker super power — the one worth carrying forward as you progress in leadership — is being able to prototype something that works and proves a concept.

Realistically, a proof of concept is also only 20% of the work an engineer needs to do in order for a change to become production worthy and I respect that my sketched ideas need a lot more care and craftsmanship than I have time to give them. Where I can help other ICs is having that initial 20% idea around which they can then build a working idea, and do so autonomously.

It feels very cringey to write — oh brave new world that has such people as me in it! — but I can easily reassure myself by remembering all the times earlier in my career where I was very grateful to be initially pointed, with quite a lot of prompting, in a particular direction and then being given the chance to deliver on it.

I’m just a lead, but I can imagine part of being a CTO takes the same form as what I’ve described.

nedt · a year ago
Every junior has mentors and leaders that help them and that they can follow. As you grow you might become one of them. That's the reason why you then let others do all of the coding. It's not like you unlearn everything, but you let your team grow and become you in the end. It can be really satisfying. If you can't stop getting your hands dirty then maybe it's not for you (yet).
CaffeineLD50 · a year ago
Elon Musk, for example, appears to be wholly self taught as a coder. Do you want Elon doing your code reviews?
guappa · a year ago
I want him to call me a pedo while I'm trying to save people stuck in a cave :D
codingdave · a year ago
> Synchronous Chat

I just want to put the idea out there that there is no such thing.

If you need it to be synchronous, it should not be in a chat window. Or at least, not without agreeing "Hey, we are going to dedicate a few minutes to real-time chat on this."

If remote, call them. If on-site, face each other and talk. Don't throw messages into a chat and expect immediate response.

snide · a year ago
Has anyone worked in a "two crews" system where there wasn't resentment? Or where people didn't want to naturally migrate to the "future crew".

I like the idea of this on paper. I have a hard time believing it can work in practice. The closest I've seen are library teams that build some service (say a design system + components) that other teams utilize.

ajmurmann · a year ago
At my last job we had a version of our on-prem product where the company sold a super extension for a version that was supposed to go out of support. We had a small team (I think three people) whose only responsibility it was to ensure that version was supported, pipelines worked and we're ready to ship a big fix at needed. That was their responsibility but as long as that was covered they were allowed to work in their spare time on what they wanted as long as they saw value for the company in it. It was a good bargain. Everyone else was grateful the small team was doing the dirty work and the maintenance team was delighted they could use the remaining time working on things that had always bugged them, do research, etc. This was a few years ago and I forgot details but I vaguely remember that we got some really cool improvements and research from them. The people on that team also were really excellent and self-motivating which helped make this a success but also more expensive.
ajmurmann · a year ago
"support extension" not "super extension"
maccard · a year ago
> where people didn't want to naturally migrate to the "future crew".

I think the book captures a solution to this with:

> Engineers rotate between the crews on a regular basis. The Microsoft blog post referenced above recommends swapping some team members between the two crews every week.

> Define the customer crew as a temporary team. This can mean either that the customer crew itself doesn't exist full-time (perhaps for only one week per month), or that team members are constantly rotating between the customer and feature crews.

> Has anyone worked in a "two crews" system where there wasn't resentment?

yes. I've worked for a few places where the teams are fully distinct and it works well. In games think Engine team vs Game team. Even on the Game team at one of my previous roles the way it worked was you'd get put on a feature which might take 6-12 weeks to ship, and then there'd be some maintenance work/updates/tech debt after that. Your primary focus was the thing you just shipped but you'd also have the time to go back to some of the previous stuff and work on that too. During that time, the other team would be on the same rota, and after 6-8 weeks you'd on-ramp to a new feature and repeat.

jpswade · a year ago
I've experimented with a two-crew type system before (Red Team for feature development, Blue Team for stability and bug fixes).

Rather than treating these as fixed teams, we treated them as workstreams that people rotated between every sprint (every two weeks).

It worked for about 3 months, until it didn't - by then we had grown enough to organising the teams around the business capabilities or domains instead.

plomme · a year ago
Sort of. I've worked with having a rota where engineers would spend a week handling support and bug reports which avoids many of the pitfalls with the entirely separate "two crews". I wrote a bit more about it in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43337703#43339972 .
citrin_ru · a year ago
I would not want to migrate to the "future crew" given that "customer crew" getting enough resources (and adequately compensated). But even without separation it's typical that maintenance is starved while new features getting all attention and resources. I would guess separation on two teams would make it only worse.
rukuu001 · a year ago
I like things like this not because I'm going to use it as a bible, but because it provides good coverage of responsibilities & concerns.

Unless you've got some great advisers or you worked under someone really great, no one's going to take you aside and give you a list of stuff you need to take care of once you're in this position.

For each section I'm asking - what's our answer to this? Do I agree with this? Is our process better? What have I missed? It's helpful.

m104 · a year ago
Oh lordy, the "two crews" bifurcation fully written down. What a fantastic way to ship until it becomes far too expensive to ship anything good.

Look, when we break the feedback loop back to the people who wrote the software in the first place, they get happier for a bit, you make some other people sadder for a bit, and then slowly your feature crew never want to be interrupted or bothered again and your customer crew can't get enough resources to fully fix anything.

Worse, your feature crews aren't learning anything beyond how to get those lines out the door, which will somehow get slower and more expensive as time goes on. Why? Because you removed the one fitness function on good software development which is to fully re-incorporate the negative feedback back into the source of development.

A real CTO leadership handbook would say clearly "it's your responsibility to help your developers improve, especially while shipping, and they're not always going to be happy about it."

pyrale · a year ago
> It allows your feature team to remain 100 percent focused on the future, undistracted by customer support work.

AKA "it allows your feature team to be completely oblivious to the horrors they unleash, and keep at it until the ship is solidly planted in the iceberg"

Not talking about the conflicts it creates for merging between sales-supported feature teams and customer rep-supported maintenance teams. Given that the "customer crew" is described as something you grow out of, there's no question who wins arbitrages.

> It provides another career path for individual engineers, especially junior engineers, to learn and level up on your team.

"Senior staff doesn't want to fix shit so we have juniors do it"

SkyPuncher · a year ago
Further, I'm not sure what efficiency it provides overall. Is dedicating 20% of your team to support _that_ much different than the entire team spending 20% of their time on support?

We've actually found our quality goes up massively when we force our engineers to deal with the problems in the features they ship, directly with customers. We still have dedicated front line support (that rotates weekly), but they run off a playbook for common support needs then delegate everything else out.

It really sucks when you get pulled into support a feature you launched, but it really makes you want to build your next features better. Better internal documentation, better customer documentation, better UX/requirements, better edge case handling, etc, etc.

n4r9 · a year ago
Further down the article:

> The Microsoft blog post referenced above recommends swapping some team members between the two crews every week.

This would hopefully mitigate the worst of the effect you describe, since everyone eventually gets exposed to the consequences of poor feature development.

DanielHB · a year ago
Related topic, but every company I worked at that had a platform team (as in a third-crew support team that manages tools/practices/common-code for a discipline) ends up being infested with over-engineering.

They tend to attract that kinda of people who have disdain about delivering features and fixing bugs and like to over-abstract problems. Instead of fixing bugs they try to create increasingly complex abstractions to prevent the bugs from happening in the first place, with obvious results.

Aurornis · a year ago
That has been the fate of every platform team I’ve worked with in recent years.

Then they become gatekeepers, refusing to allow anything on their platform unless it conforms to their ideal vision. The catch is that their vision won’t be ready to use for 6-12 months, so you can’t deploy. Now your biggest problems aren’t engineering, it’s constant politicking to get around the platform team.

Add to this the concept of “architects” who don’t code but jump from team to team critiquing their work and you have a recipe for getting nothing done. One half of engineering is coding and trying to ship, and the other half of engineering is gate keeping and trying to prevent anyone from shipping

neumann · a year ago
argh! PTSD - This was exactly what happened at my last start-up. Two of the engineering team and one from the R&D team started a platform team and it became a pre-PMF product with the slickest pipelines, DevOps, Cloud-cost optimization ready to scale to infinity. But with no customers, a broken front-end, and a under-funded R&D team as all the effort was put into the essential SaaS Platform. Truly put the company back 1 year while burning two.
actionfromafar · a year ago
I wonder though if there aren't more forces at play. For instance, the business problems some systems try to solve really are so large and complex, you might need some kind of overseeing function in your company.

Also I have a hunch a team dedicated to providing helper "libraries" more than than "frameworks" could provide a lot of value without so much downside. If you can call a library function without it imposing a whole framework on the rest of your codebase, it's more self-contained and can't spill its abstractions all over the place.

SketchySeaBeast · a year ago
This was the first place I worked at. The platform team became more and more insular and detached and more and more convoluted. As a result, things got harder to add on and soon they were telling the implementation teams that the features that the clients were requesting couldn't possible be needed. Million dollar contracts but no, you don't need to be able to put links into text blocks, that's a stupid feature and the client can't possibly want it.
hnthrow90348765 · a year ago
>Look, when we break the feedback loop back to the people who wrote the software in the first place, they get happier for a bit, you make some other people sadder for a bit, and then slowly your feature crew never want to be interrupted or bothered again and your customer crew can't get enough resources to fully fix anything.

This is the PM's job - one or a few people who are deciding the vision of how all of the features fit together based on feedback by working with customers. Customers (esp. non-technical ones) will definitely not have a coherent product vision and only want immediate fixes regardless of what else may be planned. Customers may also not communicate to one another and their feedback can conflict.

If you put this burden on developer shoulders, they now have to manage all of that communication in addition to requiring technical skills to know the code base and maintain it well, on top of every developer needing to have the same coherent vision to make thoughtful decisions. That's now two to three jobs in one depending if your developers also manage infrastructure like many roles are requiring these days.

marcinzm · a year ago
What you're describing is exactly the opposite of every actually successful team I've seen, and describes every mediocre team I've seen. Silos are death and not just in a code base. Good developers understand the product. Mediocre ones churn out tickets mindlessly.
borski · a year ago
One thing that we did to account for this was to shift the teams every or every few sprints. It allowed folks to get more experience, still get feedback, since if they built a buggy feature they'd have to fix it, etc.

People seemed much happier with that, because they also didn't get tired of 'always fixing bugs' or never getting the feedback, which you insightfully mentioned.

madeofpalk · a year ago
Developers must run and maintain the software they build. It's as simple as that.
dowager_dan99 · a year ago
The best development teams WANT this.

They will readily take on the responsibility to get the autonomy. The problem is many companies give the former without the latter...

x0x0 · a year ago
And take the calls.

Don't like being paged at 3am? Write robust software and test.

JohnCClarke · a year ago
Well, what's the time horizon? A PE backed outfit, or a CTO looking to move on within a year or so, would be well advised to follow this guidance. Lots of success now, and the problems deferred to later.
plomme · a year ago
The book mentions having a rota:

> Engineers rotate between the crews on a regular basis. The Microsoft blog post referenced above recommends swapping some team members between the two crews every week.

In my experience this works well. With my current and previous client each team had a "hero of the week", whose responsibility was second line support and monitoring. If nothing came up the hero would work on their tasks as usual.

If something does come up the heroes of the week would be tasked with solving it or pulling in someone who knows how to solve it. This leads to engineers both having to accept accountability for writing shoddy code, but it also exposes engineers to the wider codebase when pulling on threads. It also solves the issue where no-one or the same person always takes responsibility for handling bugs.

dowager_dan99 · a year ago
This just sounds like having a point developer. The challenge is too many companies expect this without giving up a feature-dev headcount. Any work the get done aside from point is a bonus and unplanned.
marcinzm · a year ago
Isn't this just called on-call? That's very different from a separate team.
bravetraveler · a year ago
This may put me and my peers out of work (in a good way). SRE is a consequence of this function being lost, IMO. Pattern: developers don't like it? Give it to Ops/SRE.

Take away the escape, we will all be better for it.

bboreham · a year ago
I call them “shiny team and shitty team”.
esafak · a year ago
It is not a problem if you measure and reward the infra team for their ability to enable the feature team, such as change lead time and deployment frequency, as well as the the stability metrics that the infra team might want to pursue.
gnabgib · a year ago
Popular in 2023 (452 points, 156 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37971795
methods21 · a year ago
I tend to disagree a tad with what you have said below, I've lost count how many interviews I've done at this point, one challenge is on the intake side and how many darn applicants there are or can be and that its typically the recruiting team interacting with them at this point.

The question in your example, is fine to include, but you need a non, yes or no or scale question to weed out unqualified candidates. For me, this is a very succinct question with a definitive answer. You'll be surprised at how many people will answer 'extremely comfortable' with Javascript yet not know what === means, so I'll ask something along the lines of 'what is the strictly equal operator in Javascript"... while any javascript programmer will know this, you'll be surprised that this type of Q alone knocks out 50% of the applicant pool, most of whom probably selected 'extremely comfortable' btw, and save my org. a TON of time.

"For example, for a role that requires experience in JavaScript, it's not unreasonable to confirm that experience in the questionnaire with a question like, Rate your comfort level working with JavaScript on a scale from not comfortable to extremely comfortable."