Am I missing something about where this guy is getting money? He posted his bank account, which is essentially empty, and it seems his only current income is $600/mo, which is less than half of his rent. So how is this guy surviving currently?
I don't mean to be one of those people that shout "privilege" at every turn on the Internet, but most people with no savings and barely any income would be freaking out unless they had some family or support network to lean on, which I noticed any discussion of is suspiciously absent.
Didn't he say he started with $80,000, spent it, and is now out of money?
Presumably he now needs to either get a job asap or make some hard choices. But it sounds like the post is supposed to be a retrospective so its not surprising he isn't really talking about the future.
> I don't mean to be one of those people that shout "privilege
He literally had enough money to blow $80,000 on 2 years of unemployment. Of course he is privleged. Most people in the computer industry are. Most posters to hn are. The average person lives paycheque to paycheque and certainly doesn't have 80k just lying around in their bank account.
> But it sounds like the post is supposed to be a retrospective so its not surprising he isn't really talking about the future.
No, my specific point is that he does not sound like he needs to make hard choices, and he is alluding to continuing working on his own projects in the future. He writes:
> I made resolutions: to make $1M in revenue in 2025. Well, that's not really happening… But rest assured, I do everything possible to reach that goal rather sooner than later.
and
> blymp is the only one generating money — about $600/month — and the one I plan to continue next year. Yay!
and finishes with
> Here's to a promising year 2025. My third year without a job. A year when I give more than I receive. A year of patience. And a year of an even deeper connection with myself. Cheers!
And sure, people that make a high income job are privileged, but I was using it in the sense that you frequently see it used online, specifically that he has a backup pool of money/support somewhere, most likely family, that he conspicuously leaves out of his post.
> Here's to a promising year 2025. My third year without a job. A year when I give more than I receive. A year of patience. And a year of an even deeper connection with myself.
He does talk about the future and seems to imply he’ll continue to not have a job.
If that’s the case, I’m with GP in wondering how he’s going to make it past January.
I read somewhere that most people in the US are definitely not paycheck to paycheck. The article I read claimed it's around 15-20% of the working population.
He's privileged sure, not because he had 80K in the bank to burn through, but because he knows it's not the end of him when it's burnt through. He COULD get a job and steady income if he wanted, in at least that 80K range (probably double really). So meh. Good for him though for scratching his itches though. Any dude who can code can be a wage slave if they really want to.
To me, $80k sounds like a very small amount of "F-You" money. I'm not criticizing the OP at all, but if I quit my job with 80k in the bank, I would immediately start researching the most painful B2B problem I could solve quickly using AI. Not to generate an income stream, but to build an asset (the business) to sell.
That's the quickest path to $1M. Software developers are too caught up on salary (or 73 different "income streams" that all make $0), and rarely think about building a valuable business.
That’s a good point. The article reads like an extended vacation, often spent trying to start businesses, that didn’t work out.
I was recently working six days a week with a nearly-empty fridge. My coworkers were scraping by. I have two jobs now. Due to a car repair, money is tight through December but we have food (and the car). Working 12 hours a day does cut into time I might build skills for a better job. Still progressing, though.
My coworkers and I at each job can’t usually take even a week off unless it was a paid vacation. A year or two? That’s like a dream goal for us.
Whereas, it’s terrible he had a divorce and lost everything. I’ve prayed that Jesus Christ bless he and his former partner with mutual forgiveness and new lives with peace. I thank Christ that He gave much joy in financial or other circumstances that would cause depression in most people. He is our Rock.
I called it out in an different thread. There's a safety net here that's simply not being mentioned. Nothing wrong with that of course, but let's not pretend that somebody with a monthly rent of ~1200 and a whopping ~60 CAD in savings would somehow magically be stress free. You'd be homeless inside a few months in the US.
I'm in a similar boat. -$800 in my checking and about ~$1000 left on my CC. Also from Canada. Morgage payment coming up in 5 days will put me in the negative, and another one in January as well. Should not have bought a house. I'm basically screwed, but I figure the wheels of the system or whatever will move slower than me finding work.
similar boat 7 years ago. Luckily, I found a data science job that barely covered by rent and family expenses for 12hrs a day. In addition I had to freelance for a 2 to 3 hours everyday to make ends meet - basically sleep, work, repeat - rough patch - you will get through it. Hold tight, wishing you good luck!
Damn, brother. But if anyone can pull a rabbit out this hat, it’s you. Your main problem will be getting your giant brain through the door for a job interview.
I'm a contractor and last year my agency said there would be layoffs, which caused quite a scare, but in the end only contractors residing in Canada were affected.
You can easily find the guy's LinkedIn. It appears that he is fully devoted to "entrepreneurship" rather than finding a traditional job, and currently lists himself as the founder of 2 current start-ups. So the unemployed part is basically by choice... and you'll notice, in the article, nothing stated about applying for jobs and not getting them.
I believe what this guy is referring to is that his startups currently aren't making money. And, to that end, this blog post is a marketing piece.
He didn’t link to his only revenue-generating project anywhere, so it doesn’t feel like much of a marketing piece to me. It’s just a blog post about what he worked on in 2024 (including hobbies)
It’s the privilege of renter’s protections. Even with nonpayment the landlord has to go through a Tribunal administratif du logement hearing to evict them and that usually takes at least a few months unless the tenant is trashing the property on their way out. The process can get extended every time the tenant pays rent so if someone is genuinely trying to pay as soon as they can, eviction takes a while.
Renter's protections is one of those ideas that sound good on paper. Having to keep a non-paying rentee is disastrous for a landlord who is also trying to pay their mortgage.
Sure, some landlords are large real estate companies, but all you're doing is forcing out small landlords and ensuring that large companies own all of the rental properties.
(Like all regulation, it is at a fundamental level pro-monopolistic, favoring large companies that can handle the overhead of complying with the regulation and punishing small players who cannot.)
Sounds like he rents a room in a house/apartment, so it's probably one of his roomies that has the lease, not him. If that's the case, protections wont apply here.
> I don't mean to be one of those people that shout "privilege" at every turn on the Internet, but most people with no savings and barely any income would be freaking out unless they had some family or support network to lean on, which I noticed any discussion of is suspiciously absent.
I understand the sentiment but I don’t understand why point it out. It’s not like the blog post in question is putting anyone down, complaining about anything, or being obnoxious.
There will always be someone more privileged than you are. Why constantly remind yourself (and others) about it if the more privileged person isn’t harming anyone?
I point it out because he's leaving out a very important part of his story. He's come to the end of 2024 with no money left and no stable income, yet he talks about continuing on more of the same in 2025, so he's got to have some other significant support from somewhere, and that's critical to his story. In my mind the better analogy is fitness influencers that go into detail about their diet and exercise regimen, and then conveniently leave out their weekly testosterone shots.
I don't judge him at all for being privileged or what he's done. I judge him for leaving out what I think is the most important part of the story: how he could go on this journey and come to a point where he's got no money left but he isn't freaking out about being homeless or getting food.
There is no problem surviving for a young healthy man in Montreal. One can always uber, deliveroo, tend bars etc, and it pays pretty well. Nothing to freak out about.
Fair enough, but then talking about this going forward would be a critical part of his story, because he talks about continuing on in 2025 developing his projects and essentially more of the same, which becomes considerably more difficult if he's going to spend 30-40 hours a week driving for Uber.
Folks, just live your life how it fits you. We're all born into a different set of circumstances that dictate many of the choices we make. We all have different ideas about what life means to us and what levels of risk we're comfortable taking. Listen to your gut and focus on what you'll be smiling about as you lie on your deathbed.
These past three year's markets have been super tough. It's the hardest I've worked in my life to be employed in the field I was interested in actually working in, which is building software. I've had to get two new roles in that time due to layoffs. 1000's of applications, and all that entails. I was ready to be a farmhand this summer before things actually worked out, figured I would get to work a farm on a lake, and fish on my time off, it's pretty much what I want to do when I retire, shouldn't be so bad. Just be flexible. Work as hard as you can to get what you want, but remember McDonalds pays nearly $20 an hour these days, if it keeps the lights on, don't be above it. Better than being homeless.
> McDonalds pays nearly $20 an hour these days, if it keeps the lights on, don't be above it.
I was between jobs several years ago and my startup failed - I ended up washing up at a restaurant to be able to continue feeding my family. At the time it was humiliating to be in my late 30s scrubbing pots and pans for the minimum wage but looking back it’s probably one of the periods of my life I’m most proud of: Putting pride aside to do what’s required to be a father and a provider.
Speaking of different circumstances, here's a helpful income comparator based on actual numbers: https://wid.world/income-comparator/ . Figure out how common your situation is where you are.
If anyone else finds themself in this position, I highly recommend you sell what you can, pack the rest up into a storage unit, and travel, 4 or 6 months in each location.
$80k can easily last you 4+ years of very comfortable living in much of the world. Enjoy the food, really try and learn some of the local language, and enjoy yourself.
My wife and I always say that the most dangerous show on television is "House Hunters International".
"I need a 3 bedroom apartment with a full kitchen in the village center, with at least parking for one car, I have a budget of $300/mo".
"Here's at least three options"
It also bring up a kind of discomfort between us, as tech workers, and regular people. The quantity of money we can earn, even at the lower end in the U.S., is unfathomable. It makes us want to go places and spend somewhat frivolously to support local businesses.
We were recently in Portugal. There's a ton of trendy food spots with prices near what we'd pay in HCOL U.S., but there's a ton of really local, mom 'n pop places, with absolutely incredibly prices, and they're incredibly appreciative of your business.
One place we frequented was maybe a 30 second walk from a very trendy tourist district, but served local food at very local prices. Ubers were lined up to drop people to go overpay for mediocre food in the district, literally on the street next to where we were eating. If they would have just taken a moment, they could have come and had a great relaxed meal and support some locals for almost next to nothing.
> We were recently in Portugal. There's a ton of trendy food spots with prices near what we'd pay in HCOL U.S., but there's a ton of really local, mom 'n pop places, with absolutely incredibly prices, and they're incredibly appreciative of your business.
I hear that - last time I was in Lisbon I got breakfast in one of those kind of places and had to ask the cashier if they made a mistake with the change and had given me back too much. Like literally, they could have charged double I would have accepted it as a fair price for a nice meal.
I have only met poor retirees when living abroad. The sort of people that have never been abroad before but love the low prices (and spend most of their time talking about it). I don’t think the House Hunters demographic has much money.
> but there's a ton of really local, mom 'n pop places, with absolutely incredibly prices, and they're incredibly appreciative of your business
Yep, I was in Portugal back in June and was blown away by how nice it was. City life, the beach towns and overall prices of things. That was my first time going to the EU from the US.
I was on vacation so I ate out every day for all meals but I don't think I paid more than $5 for breakfasts and most sit down dinners were $12-15 all-in. I splurged one night in Lisbon and had the craziest plate of sushi I've ever seen and it was $18. That was from a 4.9 rated sushi bar with ~800 reviews.
My total food bill for 14 days of solo traveling was ~$475 and I wasn't purposely trying to budget. That includes randomly trying a lot of things that I normally wouldn't do like getting a fresh smoothie while walking around because why not. That food bill also includes 3 days in south western Spain because I moved around to a few cities (Seville, Spain -> Lagos, Portugal -> Lisbon, Portugal was the loop I took with day trips to a couple of places).
If it makes you feel any better, most of that show is faked. My friend was on it; she had already moved to another country and into her new apartment before applying to the show. Her apartment is where she “ended up”.
They flew her back to the US, where she’s from, to do filming there and have us friends come by to throw frisbees and talk about how much they’ll miss her. It was weird.
The trivial ability to use even a small fraction of this wealth to improve a huge amount of lives is exactly what the “effective altruist” crowd should be creaming themselves over.
The fact that I can buy a house in Thailand for something insanely cheap also means that I can make sure that the local school has whatever they need, for basically just a haircut.
You can take the local orphanage and make sure hundreds of kids are comfortable for hundreds of USD a month.
My brother and his wife did this; quit their jobs and spent a year in Europe "slow living" (still did a bit of consulting work, maybe 10 hours/week), but with careful planning were able to keep their expenses waaay down (not sure of exact figure but much less than if living in the US). Month-long AirBNBs in non-tourist areas are inexpensive, so they'd spend 1 month in each place. A lot of walking, hiking, trains, just living. Not Paris, London or Zurich of course, but places like Albania, Montenegro, Portugal, Greece, Turkey, France of course. (Part of the reason for going to those countries is you can only spend so long in the Schengen Zone.) So you don't have to go as far as Vietnam or Ecuador to do this.
Obviously the OP has no children (and my brothers' kids are grown up) - if you have kids this changes the equation completely (though if they're very young then it can still work).
I have a cousin and his wife who did this with kids. They sold everything, bought an RV, and traveled north and Central America. They were homeschooling during that time. Their kids were 5 and 7.
It was not good.
I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea this is unless your children are under 3. Children need structure and permanency. They need friends, not just acquaintances. My cousin did everything else right, but his kids still have issues with relationships because 5 of their very formative years were spent without actual friends. It's really sad to think about.
For him, it was a wildly selfish move that negatively impacted his children. Don't be that guy.
Stories like this make me the most mad at the Landlords/NIMBY's (sometimes the same people).
An $80,000 "investment" into a one person startup should take you much much much farther than this, but it is completely gobbled up by literal rent-seekers.
BAcK iN mY dAy a room in a house would cost $400-$500/mo in most places in the Montreal-Waterloo corridor. Now runways have basically been halved (0.3x'd?) as an extra allowance to the landed gentry.
One of the biggest beneficiaries of the recent tech boom happen to be the owners of land and buildings in and around the cities that tech companies prefer to be around.
Also a strong argument for remote-first companies.
Impossible to estimate the amount of damage the runaway real estate market has done to competitiveness, innovation, and entrepreneurship in the interest of funnelling more free money to entitled landlords sitting on their asses cashing rent checks
Not only you suddenly will get the entire week for yourself, to do whatever you want, and you will be able to travel, but the other benefit is reviewing your relationship with material possessions.
I did that (sold everything, and went traveling), and now I own very little stuff. Apart from the mandatory laptop I need for work, and clothes, I couldn’t care less about everything else.
Before selling everything, I had a sick setup of dual monitors, and external DAC, speakers, headphones, keyboards, etc. Today, I need only laptop. I was considering getting one monitor, but can’t seem to justify the need.
It really teaches you how little material crap you need.
You listed a bunch of crap most people wouldn’t buy anyways.
The bulk of what people own are things like furniture, artworks, plants, appliances, cookware… etc. Not particularly sexy, but essential for making a cozy place to live in the world.
I wouldn't call dual monitors sick, barely entry level, but... https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08NSW5F8V they make good cheap external portable monitors that are laptop thin or thinner.
Think long and hard before cramming your crap into a storage unit. Outside of possessions with some sentimental value, it's likely the money spent on a year or two of paying for a storage unit (particularly one that is climate controlled) exceeds the value of the things you're storing there.
Agree with this. I put all my stuff in storage several times. One time I put it all in a smaller rural town because a because cost was 1/5th of what it was in a big city ($70 a month vs $350 a month). But even then, the stuff was in there for 4 years so ($3360) + the van to move it and most of it could have been replaced for far less.
I eventually emptied it but I made the mistake is discarding books and trinkets that were actually memorabilia. I didn't interact with the trinkets or pull the books off the shelves. I didn't realize that just seeing them would trigger memories of where I bought them, who I was with, what I was into then, what songs were popular then, etc... so I regret getting rid of that stuff. But that was probably no more than 10 "book boxes" of stuff
It’s not only about current value. As anyone who has had their house wiped out and an insurance payout, acquiring everything again when you settle back is a massive time sink (let alone cost, if you were insured at fair market value rather than replacement value)
So yeah, the rent on the unit might be more than your crap is worth, but having it all back in a blink (essentially) when moving back someplace has some intangible value too.
After a last horrible work experience, I decided to quit working for a while and travel. Haven't sold a lot of things, some are still stored at my parent's place but I managed to live off my saving for almost two years. I could have gone a lot longer but unfortunately some bad investment decisions and a long dream of obtaining a pilot license shortened my runway by a lot.
In the past months, my situation has gotten worse as I needed to tighten my belt due to my saving having almost completely melted. Hard but enriching times, I have now found a job after months of searching. The market in Europe isn't great these days. Back to hustling but without any regrets.
100% agree with OP, it was the experience of a lifetime for me. If I can give some additional advice, plan your finances. Even if you think a large sum will last you years and you're a bit lazy to plan it (as I was), don't be conservative with your forecast, plan large. Personally if I had to do it again, I'd try to keep half or one third aside for unexpected cases.
$80k will give you one year of very comfortable life in Central Europe. If you want to live in an international city in a decent flat 4 years is not realistic, more like 2.
I live in Poland in a city center in a metro area of 2 million people on $9k per year. That's rent free, because I own the place, adding rent would push the total cost to $13k per year. That's six years of living on $80k.
Also, I'm 42 and retired :) It's really easy to retire here when making software money.
If you are willing to forgo a car, expensive food and be fine with a small studio, you can easily do 4 years on $80k in central Europe. You can do 10 years in many parts of the worlds and it'll require some adjustments but some places (ie: Vietnam) can be really okay and offer a night life unmatched by the US.
I’ll second this advice, counterintuitive though it may seem.
Back in the day, I had saved enough to take a nice 3 month leave of absence from work to do some travelling. Nudging my spreadsheet around, I tried replacing my rent, utilities etc. with the cost of a storage locker, and suddenly my “how long can I go for “ number shot up to over a year.
It changed my whole approach to life in my 30s, and it was a good 15 years before I committed to living in a single place long term again.
Sorry, but then what - money will just be magically waiting for you when you’re ready to come home? Having spent every penny to your name?
God it must be nice to be in a position where you can afford to just be like “ok my partner and I are just going to travel for four years, and after that, idk, things will work out somehow.”
I did this. Was in a dead end job, left the job, traveled for a year, rented somewhere for 6 months, then out of money, moved in with parents... still here. Job opportunities where my parents live aren't great.
At the time the job was so boring, going nowhere, pretty easy.. I would do anything to go back in time to that role tbh..
I loved every second of traveling, and met some cool people, but none of that helps me find work now.
If you're a shy introvert, and struggle with social situations.. and you currently have a job, I'd advise to keep the job, even if it's not great, and try get something else lined up before leaving.
I have so many mental issues now (low self esteem etc)... therapy would probably help, but now I have no money sooo... I'm stuck in a loop of unemployable, no help due to no money, no money due to no work etc.
At least have a plan first and make sure you understand visas. I have fiends who sold up everything and moved to Switzerland only to be turned back at the airport because they didn’t know they couldn’t just move their life there unemployed
i did this more than 20 years ago. i was between jobs. my choice was to go back home or go travel. so i sent my stuff home to my grandparents and went to travel...
In my state the health insurance marketplace only has 'bronze' plans that are in-network only (with mediocre options) and high deductibles, it costs 6-800 for individual and close to 1500-2k for a family.
The United States has rigged the employment market to forever keep you dependent on a corporate employer until retirement. Now these same companies are taking away remote work, forcing people close to expensive and increasingly annoying cities like New York City, where the median one bedroom is one million to buy.
So, for giving your time to a company, your reward is never being able to be fully independent without huge risk. Healthcare is the Company Store Voucher of the modern era.
Has anyone else considered leaving the United States long before retirement age?
In Canada you just die before you get a family doctor :)
Last time I went to the ER, the wait was 10h for kidney stones. Thankfully I passed out for 4h in the waiting room from the pain and the stones passed by the time I saw a doctor, so all they did was send me home.
My family doctor died 10 years ago and I'm still on a list.
My brother (Australian) spent some time in Canada and was able to see a doctor straight away and really cheaply a bunch of times, and visited the hospital once with a nasty foot injury with no dramas. It seemed like a pretty good system.
I remember contrasting that with my US experience at the same time, where a 10 minute consult with a doctor cost 600USD. I had a really obvious ear infection, just needed some antibiotics, but he must have seen me as a cash-cow and ordered a ton of unrelated blood tests that were pointless since I was flying out the next day. I walked away feeling like I'd been scammed.
(In Australia a doctor's visit is under 30USD, blood tests don't cost much either)
This entire thread makes me think you guys over there in the north-American continent are living in literal hell. And I'm not even saying this from a "first world" European country. I'm saying this from a so-called "shithole" country at the bottom of Africa, South Africa to be precise. The last thing I had to worry about wrt my medical was whether or not I was using all my "benefits". The deductible (or excess) is basically peanuts (or zero) for most things, and I have so far in my entire adult life never had to pay a deductible. I get a doctor's appointment at a moments notice, ER rooms are practically empty and really just 24-hour doctor's rooms with access to hospital equipment, pay for nothing out of my pocket, they cover all my meds, they cover my entire hospital stay, I wait for at-most weeks for certain specialists (that are all leaving the country btw, due to government), and never worry that medical bills will bankrupt me.
Of course, as with most things, government in South Africa is basically jealous of private medical insurance here and is trying to destroy it because public healthcare is a failure here. We really need to add a third item to this list: Nothing in life is certain, except for death, taxes and the government fucking up everything it touches.
If you're from Ontario, you might want to call the health care connect people... I was on a list for roughly a year and a half, then out of the blue I got 2 referrals in 2 months (the first one never called me)... while the one I got isn't a typical family doctor, just having someone to help me with my needs is a start...
Do you really need a family doctor? I've never had one. Whenever I've had a non-emergency issue (in BC), I've just gone to a walk-in clinic where they've either helped me on the spot or referred me to a specialist. I can definitely see why having a family doctor might be a more pleasant overall experience, but as far as I understand in Canada it's practically a pipe dream.
Being your own employer is the only way to take charge of this.
Platforms like Gusto, etc. make it so even small businesses can offer benefits and insurance like bigger companies do.
I went though various big and small employers plans, several states' exchanges, and none were nearly as good as doing the legwork to get benefits setup for my own company. Now I choose.
In some states the insurance group policy won't be available for a one person LLC, and there's no option direct from the health insurance companies, so all that remains is the state marketplace. I tried. I ended up signing up with an agency that basically put me as a W2 employee and took a fee, so I could use their so-so but better networked group insurance.
How do the costs pencil out on that, if you are signing up with Gusto etc. only for access to the health care plans? Presumably you need some minimum payroll or something?
>Being your own employer is the only way to take charge of this.
One step further, being your own doctor when ever possible is even better. Bring out the rusty knife for surgery, a club for anesthesia etc. most surgeries are not rocket science.
I'm in Illinois, my bronze marketplace plan was $247/mo this year, and the coverage was good (for what I used at least). 2025 plans look to be going up $50/mo or so which is annoying. Still a good chunk to have to pay, but nowhere near as bad as your situation.
Makes me curious how much marketplace costs vary per state?
In any case, as another person pointed out, the ACA plans also provide very high premium credits for low income households, covering up to ~80% of the costs (from what I've seen). But this also varies by state, I think.
> Has anyone else considered leaving the United States long before retirement age?
Yes. I'm American but was born in a small country in Eastern Europe. I was planning on moving back during the pandemic, however I was presented with some job prospects I couldn't reject and my move was delayed. But I do plan on retiring in my hometown within two years. There is universal healthcare which sucks for the most part, but private insurance is extremely cheap (compared to the US) and I could retire more than comfortably with my current nw. And by 'retire' I don't mean stop working, I mean I'm going to work on whatever I want.
And to your original point about healthcare, it is the absolute single reason for why I did not take any sabbaticals or long term leave even while burned out, for my insomnia during layoff seasons and generally for my job related stress.
The bronze plans are basically catastrophic insurance, not preventative care. If you want that you have to take it into your own hands in the USA; eat right, exercise, do the annual checkup Mine paid out when I had an appendix close to exploding and several days in the hospital. Of course I paid the deductible which was $6500, however the remaining portion would have put a large dent in my retirement fund, but thanks to the “bronze” plan, I was fine. So what is the risk for me?
I did. Healthcare was a big part of that decision. My older siblings have been through hell both medically and financially because of the US healthcare system.
I decided to learn from their experiences and GTFO while I could. I miss my family and friends dearly, but it’s a massive relief (and privilege) to be able to get the care I need and not worry about whether the cost is going to bankrupt me.
Where did you end up going? I have some savings and would like to retire early, and getting health insurance is an impediment to that. Need somewhere that doesn’t require a work visa and is a good place to raise a family. I have enough to do it in the US but would be happy to consider alternatives.
My friends have successfully relied on Medicaid during financial hardships + unemployment. At least in NYC, the Medicaid plans are quite decent.
Also, for those who require plans similar to the one previously provided, COBRA (18 months) is decent -- expensive but presumably less expensive than "equivalent" in the marketplace if we're talking about a good corporate plan.
The problem with the "try a lot of projects, see what works" is that you lose out on exponential growth every time a project fails.
A lot of people would be better off doing "intra-preneurship", meaning trying to innovate and strategize within their current company to make the job more fun, gain more autonomy, and advance their career prospects.
You probably won’t launch an entire product line out of your own sheer will, but you can totally push for smaller scale work. Push for creating a tool to improve your team’s processes, or push for a few feature within an existing product. Focus less on the “entrepreneur” aspect and more on the “build fun and autonomy into your work” aspect. If you’re trusted and respected within your organization, you’ll probably be able to push through ever-larger projects (assuming they’re not net-negative). This probably isn’t a working strategy if you’re within your first year, but if you’re a respected senior engineer who wants to scratch an itch, you’ll probably have much more success.
Or, if you work at Google, push for a new chat app. It’ll probably be approved.
I've started something new at every company I've worked for, except the startup, which was already a new thing.
My current employer, Google, seems particularly amenable to internal entrepreneurship. After all, they're essentially paying you not to create new external businesses.
Right, most companies just want you cranking out the code their marketing department has determined as necessary, they don’t care if you grow, prosper, are happy, or any of those things.
That's how it goes at mine. I regularly whine about the amount of waste in there.. insane. I was more productive, creative and happier when jobless. In group you have to navigate all the hurdles, egos, fears around .. Makes me wonder how Xerox PARC managed to exist all (beyond the fact that they had a lot of money of course)
I’ve had extreme control over my role over the past decade (leadership in startups) and I couldn’t even do what you suggest. I’m not sure how you think the average person could
Exponential growth means getting the timing, positioning and right amount of execution just right.
Also feels like chasing a lottery win. Some folks might be chasing a financial safety net first that is smaller, because the variables and formula of everyone's life in what they have to take care of is valid.
I'm very happy for people who are able to swing for the fences, and also happy for the people working on getting more hits to bigger hits to swing for the fench. I know the latter is a much more sure way to get an outcome to have time freedom to really swing fences.
Everyone does what they best can do, if there's not an option in front of them at work, some people have to try to create the option themselves if it's not geographically accessible.
>meaning trying to innovate and strategize within their current company to make the job more fun, gain more autonomy, and advance their career prospects
Assuming that's in an environment where it's possible (no shitty office politics, etc), the monetary returns from that ain't gonna be competing to a succesful project. Nor is the freedom and satisfaction ever going to be the same. And of course all progress in that front, is a round of layoffs or a change in management away from being nulled.
So, it's a safer path (as much as being an employee is safe these days), but not achieving the same thing.
Fair, but the exponential growth function can be much more aggressive for a side project than your career. In a career, you max raises at 20% per year over a 5 year period? But side projects can have revenue increase 20% MRR.
Also, within companies, you need everyone’s unanimous permission to do anything.. if a problem is big enough, the team would do it themselves. If the problem is too small, the team won’t integrate.
Over the last 4 years, I've gone through a similar "speed run" of startups after quitting my job of 10 years during COVID.
First startup went nowhere and took on a contract role after 9 months. Then tried another startup with a co-founder I met at one of the startups where I worked in the interim. About 6 months building something awesome, but no commercial path. Spent 1 month with him and another co-founder on a fintech product but realized much faster that once again that there was no viable go-to-market strategy. Started another company and built a product that seemed like it had legs. We had one early user that absolutely loved the product and we thought all we needed was to find more users like her. Turns out that she was a false signal because we never found another user like her and I'm about to shut that one down after almost a year to avoid DE franchise fee next year.
If I had to sum it up: always build the minimal thing that can be "sold". Use AI to build the dirtiest MVP as fast as possible. Even better if your "MVP" is a deck and you can get people to put money down to wait. Figure out your GTM and messaging with that deck. If you are an engineer, you must resist that urge to build until you're sure you can find enough people that have this problem and want to pay you to solve it. Don't work with a non-technical co-founder if they claim if you build it, customers will come. Don't work with a non-technical co-founder that can't demonstrate an ability to sell. If the vibes feel off, get out fast. Don't form a company with a co-founder until you absolutely have to (like your personal life, don't get married until you're absolutely sure).
Lots of mistakes and lessons learned during that time having founded startups that went nowhere, been an employee in startups that went nowhere, and left startups that are actually crushing it. I have seen a big swath of the gamut at this point with some regrets in retrospect.
Given the dense amount of wisdom packed into this comment I checked out your profile. Both your current projects look extremely impressive and polished. And viable! Keep up the good work! It’s inspiring to see that in light of the obvious difficult lessons you’ve had to learn along the way.
Having learned many of the same lessons as you I can 100% backup everything you said in your “sum it up” paragraph!
The only caveat I would add is to the “make an MVP with AI”. I think MVPs generated directly out of ChatGPT/Claude are so easy now (or at least it can appear so on the face of it) that many people are just barely going beyond that - but to any experienced eye, that approach is quite transparent and can look very low-value (even if the idea is actually a good one).
Now if that person is a skilled salesperson then that might work.
But, for most people, I think it’s still very important to demonstrate good instincts, taste and strategic/commercial understanding when building such an MVP. And that means editing and shaping the output just enough to meet your vision for the product. So to agree with you - definitely, 100%, use AI as much as possible - but don’t assume that you can put zero work in on top and have that MVP be effective. Because the 10 year old down the street has the exact same tool as you - so if you are just relying verbatim on that tool’s output- it’s going to be hard to stand out.
I’d still definitely agree to spend as little time as physically possible on the MVP - with the above caveat.
Having said all that… a lot of historical wisdom on the topic of MVPs has been turned upside down since gen AI became mainstream, so on the flip side you could argue: create 1000 MVPs in an hour, publish them all, see what generates interest…*
Hmm.. I think I just argued against my own point.
* (I’m not really seriously suggesting anyone do this, but I’m also not entirely discounting this as an approach either…)
> Both your current projects look extremely impressive and polished. And viable!
Appreciate it and thanks for the positive feedback! But those are two of the multitudes of side projects I have collected that I haven't figured out how to monetize. My "day job" is at a VC-backed startup that is going through a protracted wind-down because it also failed to find a viable GTM. So yeah, I've learned some hard lessons in multiple facets of my career!
> Now if that person is a skilled salesperson then that might work
My rule now is that if I'm building something for fun, I just open source it. If I want to make money, I'm going to first figure out who's paying and how do I get them to pay. AI MVPs are easy now to let you flesh out an idea one level up from a slide deck (in fact, maybe this is its own startup idea? Use AI to build an MVP from a deck??).
I had a non-technical friend recently spin up a full blown startup with customers using nothing but Claude + Replit (not plugging, but just sharing to show that it's real: https://bullship.co). He came up with the idea after talking to a friend and finding that indeed, the market had only two major competitors who both charged too much for many smaller customers.
The code is throwaway in my book, but it's enough to validate the idea by actually getting people to pay for something they can use. It won't scale, but that's fine; by the point that he needs it to scale, he'll be able to hire people with more skill to fix or rebuild it.
>Build only after customers have thrown money at you.
This advice is better if you have 10k twitter followers. For example I'm building something cool, a no-code visual regression tool. I don't have any real network. Besides cold outreach (and hn, ph), what else is there? Would love to know what you recommend.
> like your personal life, don't get married until you're absolutely sure
I misread “personal wife” (in Kripky’s voice from big bang theory) and after I was done chuckling, I started thinking of something funny to comment about the other types of wives there are… then reread your comment and… yeah.
Haha, well, I'm going through a "divorce" now with a co-founder and unfortunately, it costs money, time, and effort to try to get my assets (code) back. He was never able to generate a dime of revenue after I brought the code, but now he wants the code (which I want to open source).
So yeah, in many ways, it is just like a marriage when you formally create a company with a co-founder. Don't do it unless you need to and if you do, make sure that you can get your assets back if you are bringing existing assets to the table.
It’s been almost two years since I was layed off. Unlike him though, I have not been working on side projects. This time has actually made me realize that I do not enjoy software, even working on projects for myself and as a hobby.
I’ve slowly spent all my savings, moved back in with my folks, and still don’t have a job. It’s rough. I have no idea what I wanna do in life. So I decided to join the navy recently, to give me the next 4 years to figure it out.
You are on hn so let me ask you this: Are/were you a nerd? Did you play around with systems, use linux for fun etc.?
If yes, you just might be depressed or haven't realized that a job might be shit anyway.
If no, interesting though that you are aware of hn (i have to assume a certain interest because i know plenty of software people avg ones, not being aware of hn at all).
That's not really the qualifier you think it is. I've been coding and hacking stuff up since I was nine. Corporate programming is a great perversion of the kind of stuff I find fun to do in my spare time. In order to be successful you not only need to be a good programmer and curious person but you also need to know how to navigate corporate power structures (explicit and implicit), you need to be somewhat of a therapist helping people tap into their true problems, and above all else you need to be excellent at compartmentalization.
similar boat. Been doing software for 15 years and I used to love it. Learning new languages, side projects, contributing to open source, you name it. At every job I became less enthusiastic, like the technical problems all became the same. The actual problems became ones of people, management, customer, product, etc., and I had no interest in solving those. So this year I decided to not code... and I don't miss it at all. However I have no idea what I will work on next.
I was in the army before uni - it was grueling but awesome. You'll find your way fren
Problem is lack of money catches up eventually. If you can't figure out some way to get it, and the longer without a job, the harder it is to get one. I think a lot of people struggled because the economy and job numbers. Supply and demand..
I had contract work, then couldn't get a tech job a couple years ago after a lot of applications. Completely broke. Drove down the road and felt kinda foolish seeing people paying less but decent money for non-tech. got fast food / hospitality worker. Low stress, physical work. Can't imagine where I'd be if I didn't.
I kind of get it though, you start doing something else then you don't have much time and energy to improve on what you want to do (such as tech) for a while, a recipe for people to get trapped, unless you can save money and reclaim time somehow to improve, or the supply/demand shifts..
anyone could fail at anything, all I know for certain is the worst thing a person can do is nothing.
One solution, if you can, is to take part-time work. Then you can reduce your expenses to that level, take time off for living, without having to spend down your savings (or only very very slowly). Then it's sustainable.
Readit News
I don't mean to be one of those people that shout "privilege" at every turn on the Internet, but most people with no savings and barely any income would be freaking out unless they had some family or support network to lean on, which I noticed any discussion of is suspiciously absent.
Presumably he now needs to either get a job asap or make some hard choices. But it sounds like the post is supposed to be a retrospective so its not surprising he isn't really talking about the future.
> I don't mean to be one of those people that shout "privilege
He literally had enough money to blow $80,000 on 2 years of unemployment. Of course he is privleged. Most people in the computer industry are. Most posters to hn are. The average person lives paycheque to paycheque and certainly doesn't have 80k just lying around in their bank account.
No, my specific point is that he does not sound like he needs to make hard choices, and he is alluding to continuing working on his own projects in the future. He writes:
> I made resolutions: to make $1M in revenue in 2025. Well, that's not really happening… But rest assured, I do everything possible to reach that goal rather sooner than later.
and
> blymp is the only one generating money — about $600/month — and the one I plan to continue next year. Yay!
and finishes with
> Here's to a promising year 2025. My third year without a job. A year when I give more than I receive. A year of patience. And a year of an even deeper connection with myself. Cheers!
And sure, people that make a high income job are privileged, but I was using it in the sense that you frequently see it used online, specifically that he has a backup pool of money/support somewhere, most likely family, that he conspicuously leaves out of his post.
He does talk about the future and seems to imply he’ll continue to not have a job.
If that’s the case, I’m with GP in wondering how he’s going to make it past January.
And the third world.
In Western Europe? Not so much. I mean, yes, there are poor people, but the middle class mostly doesn't live paycheck to paycheck.
That's the quickest path to $1M. Software developers are too caught up on salary (or 73 different "income streams" that all make $0), and rarely think about building a valuable business.
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I was recently working six days a week with a nearly-empty fridge. My coworkers were scraping by. I have two jobs now. Due to a car repair, money is tight through December but we have food (and the car). Working 12 hours a day does cut into time I might build skills for a better job. Still progressing, though.
My coworkers and I at each job can’t usually take even a week off unless it was a paid vacation. A year or two? That’s like a dream goal for us.
Whereas, it’s terrible he had a divorce and lost everything. I’ve prayed that Jesus Christ bless he and his former partner with mutual forgiveness and new lives with peace. I thank Christ that He gave much joy in financial or other circumstances that would cause depression in most people. He is our Rock.
Also with the cost of living shooting up so much - C$80k of today is probably as much as $50-60k of 2019.
But he’s not. He’s specifically spelling it out by saying his gut and stomach issues are very likely tied to the stress of his no stable income.
I'm a contractor and last year my agency said there would be layoffs, which caused quite a scare, but in the end only contractors residing in Canada were affected.
You might want to reach out to your mortgage provider and see if they can help. Often they will.
Where in Canada are you?
Sell your house. You can't afford it.
I believe what this guy is referring to is that his startups currently aren't making money. And, to that end, this blog post is a marketing piece.
Sure, some landlords are large real estate companies, but all you're doing is forcing out small landlords and ensuring that large companies own all of the rental properties.
(Like all regulation, it is at a fundamental level pro-monopolistic, favoring large companies that can handle the overhead of complying with the regulation and punishing small players who cannot.)
I understand the sentiment but I don’t understand why point it out. It’s not like the blog post in question is putting anyone down, complaining about anything, or being obnoxious.
There will always be someone more privileged than you are. Why constantly remind yourself (and others) about it if the more privileged person isn’t harming anyone?
I don't judge him at all for being privileged or what he's done. I judge him for leaving out what I think is the most important part of the story: how he could go on this journey and come to a point where he's got no money left but he isn't freaking out about being homeless or getting food.
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I was between jobs several years ago and my startup failed - I ended up washing up at a restaurant to be able to continue feeding my family. At the time it was humiliating to be in my late 30s scrubbing pots and pans for the minimum wage but looking back it’s probably one of the periods of my life I’m most proud of: Putting pride aside to do what’s required to be a father and a provider.
https://www.hnhiringtrends.com/
Everybody got used to continuous growth, but I fear that for most people the music has stopped.
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$80k can easily last you 4+ years of very comfortable living in much of the world. Enjoy the food, really try and learn some of the local language, and enjoy yourself.
You can do it, and there won't be another window.
"I need a 3 bedroom apartment with a full kitchen in the village center, with at least parking for one car, I have a budget of $300/mo".
"Here's at least three options"
It also bring up a kind of discomfort between us, as tech workers, and regular people. The quantity of money we can earn, even at the lower end in the U.S., is unfathomable. It makes us want to go places and spend somewhat frivolously to support local businesses.
We were recently in Portugal. There's a ton of trendy food spots with prices near what we'd pay in HCOL U.S., but there's a ton of really local, mom 'n pop places, with absolutely incredibly prices, and they're incredibly appreciative of your business.
One place we frequented was maybe a 30 second walk from a very trendy tourist district, but served local food at very local prices. Ubers were lined up to drop people to go overpay for mediocre food in the district, literally on the street next to where we were eating. If they would have just taken a moment, they could have come and had a great relaxed meal and support some locals for almost next to nothing.
I hear that - last time I was in Lisbon I got breakfast in one of those kind of places and had to ask the cashier if they made a mistake with the change and had given me back too much. Like literally, they could have charged double I would have accepted it as a fair price for a nice meal.
Yep, I was in Portugal back in June and was blown away by how nice it was. City life, the beach towns and overall prices of things. That was my first time going to the EU from the US.
I was on vacation so I ate out every day for all meals but I don't think I paid more than $5 for breakfasts and most sit down dinners were $12-15 all-in. I splurged one night in Lisbon and had the craziest plate of sushi I've ever seen and it was $18. That was from a 4.9 rated sushi bar with ~800 reviews.
My total food bill for 14 days of solo traveling was ~$475 and I wasn't purposely trying to budget. That includes randomly trying a lot of things that I normally wouldn't do like getting a fresh smoothie while walking around because why not. That food bill also includes 3 days in south western Spain because I moved around to a few cities (Seville, Spain -> Lagos, Portugal -> Lisbon, Portugal was the loop I took with day trips to a couple of places).
They flew her back to the US, where she’s from, to do filming there and have us friends come by to throw frisbees and talk about how much they’ll miss her. It was weird.
The fact that I can buy a house in Thailand for something insanely cheap also means that I can make sure that the local school has whatever they need, for basically just a haircut.
You can take the local orphanage and make sure hundreds of kids are comfortable for hundreds of USD a month.
Got a name?
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Obviously the OP has no children (and my brothers' kids are grown up) - if you have kids this changes the equation completely (though if they're very young then it can still work).
It was not good.
I cannot stress enough how bad of an idea this is unless your children are under 3. Children need structure and permanency. They need friends, not just acquaintances. My cousin did everything else right, but his kids still have issues with relationships because 5 of their very formative years were spent without actual friends. It's really sad to think about.
For him, it was a wildly selfish move that negatively impacted his children. Don't be that guy.
BAcK iN mY dAy a room in a house would cost $400-$500/mo in most places in the Montreal-Waterloo corridor. Now runways have basically been halved (0.3x'd?) as an extra allowance to the landed gentry.
One of the biggest beneficiaries of the recent tech boom happen to be the owners of land and buildings in and around the cities that tech companies prefer to be around.
Also a strong argument for remote-first companies.
Beautiful space, clear view of Mont Royal, right off the park, ideal location (IMO) in the plateau.
Granted, this was around 15 years ago -- I shudder to think what the now-likely Airbnb units in that building go for these days, probably $400/night.
I did that (sold everything, and went traveling), and now I own very little stuff. Apart from the mandatory laptop I need for work, and clothes, I couldn’t care less about everything else.
Before selling everything, I had a sick setup of dual monitors, and external DAC, speakers, headphones, keyboards, etc. Today, I need only laptop. I was considering getting one monitor, but can’t seem to justify the need.
It really teaches you how little material crap you need.
The bulk of what people own are things like furniture, artworks, plants, appliances, cookware… etc. Not particularly sexy, but essential for making a cozy place to live in the world.
I eventually emptied it but I made the mistake is discarding books and trinkets that were actually memorabilia. I didn't interact with the trinkets or pull the books off the shelves. I didn't realize that just seeing them would trigger memories of where I bought them, who I was with, what I was into then, what songs were popular then, etc... so I regret getting rid of that stuff. But that was probably no more than 10 "book boxes" of stuff
So yeah, the rent on the unit might be more than your crap is worth, but having it all back in a blink (essentially) when moving back someplace has some intangible value too.
In the past months, my situation has gotten worse as I needed to tighten my belt due to my saving having almost completely melted. Hard but enriching times, I have now found a job after months of searching. The market in Europe isn't great these days. Back to hustling but without any regrets.
100% agree with OP, it was the experience of a lifetime for me. If I can give some additional advice, plan your finances. Even if you think a large sum will last you years and you're a bit lazy to plan it (as I was), don't be conservative with your forecast, plan large. Personally if I had to do it again, I'd try to keep half or one third aside for unexpected cases.
Also, I'm 42 and retired :) It's really easy to retire here when making software money.
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Back in the day, I had saved enough to take a nice 3 month leave of absence from work to do some travelling. Nudging my spreadsheet around, I tried replacing my rent, utilities etc. with the cost of a storage locker, and suddenly my “how long can I go for “ number shot up to over a year.
It changed my whole approach to life in my 30s, and it was a good 15 years before I committed to living in a single place long term again.
God it must be nice to be in a position where you can afford to just be like “ok my partner and I are just going to travel for four years, and after that, idk, things will work out somehow.”
At the time the job was so boring, going nowhere, pretty easy.. I would do anything to go back in time to that role tbh..
I loved every second of traveling, and met some cool people, but none of that helps me find work now.
If you're a shy introvert, and struggle with social situations.. and you currently have a job, I'd advise to keep the job, even if it's not great, and try get something else lined up before leaving.
I have so many mental issues now (low self esteem etc)... therapy would probably help, but now I have no money sooo... I'm stuck in a loop of unemployable, no help due to no money, no money due to no work etc.
.. don't be me
At least have a plan first and make sure you understand visas. I have fiends who sold up everything and moved to Switzerland only to be turned back at the airport because they didn’t know they couldn’t just move their life there unemployed
I've heard some terrible things about how vulnerable those are to theft / squatters.
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In my state the health insurance marketplace only has 'bronze' plans that are in-network only (with mediocre options) and high deductibles, it costs 6-800 for individual and close to 1500-2k for a family.
The United States has rigged the employment market to forever keep you dependent on a corporate employer until retirement. Now these same companies are taking away remote work, forcing people close to expensive and increasingly annoying cities like New York City, where the median one bedroom is one million to buy.
So, for giving your time to a company, your reward is never being able to be fully independent without huge risk. Healthcare is the Company Store Voucher of the modern era.
Has anyone else considered leaving the United States long before retirement age?
Last time I went to the ER, the wait was 10h for kidney stones. Thankfully I passed out for 4h in the waiting room from the pain and the stones passed by the time I saw a doctor, so all they did was send me home.
My family doctor died 10 years ago and I'm still on a list.
I remember contrasting that with my US experience at the same time, where a 10 minute consult with a doctor cost 600USD. I had a really obvious ear infection, just needed some antibiotics, but he must have seen me as a cash-cow and ordered a ton of unrelated blood tests that were pointless since I was flying out the next day. I walked away feeling like I'd been scammed.
(In Australia a doctor's visit is under 30USD, blood tests don't cost much either)
Of course, as with most things, government in South Africa is basically jealous of private medical insurance here and is trying to destroy it because public healthcare is a failure here. We really need to add a third item to this list: Nothing in life is certain, except for death, taxes and the government fucking up everything it touches.
Sometimes there are information gaps between their capacity and the provincial bureaucracy.
Platforms like Gusto, etc. make it so even small businesses can offer benefits and insurance like bigger companies do.
I went though various big and small employers plans, several states' exchanges, and none were nearly as good as doing the legwork to get benefits setup for my own company. Now I choose.
Is Gusto for stuff like that? Single member LLCs?
One step further, being your own doctor when ever possible is even better. Bring out the rusty knife for surgery, a club for anesthesia etc. most surgeries are not rocket science.
Makes me curious how much marketplace costs vary per state?
In any case, as another person pointed out, the ACA plans also provide very high premium credits for low income households, covering up to ~80% of the costs (from what I've seen). But this also varies by state, I think.
Yes. I'm American but was born in a small country in Eastern Europe. I was planning on moving back during the pandemic, however I was presented with some job prospects I couldn't reject and my move was delayed. But I do plan on retiring in my hometown within two years. There is universal healthcare which sucks for the most part, but private insurance is extremely cheap (compared to the US) and I could retire more than comfortably with my current nw. And by 'retire' I don't mean stop working, I mean I'm going to work on whatever I want.
And to your original point about healthcare, it is the absolute single reason for why I did not take any sabbaticals or long term leave even while burned out, for my insomnia during layoff seasons and generally for my job related stress.
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I decided to learn from their experiences and GTFO while I could. I miss my family and friends dearly, but it’s a massive relief (and privilege) to be able to get the care I need and not worry about whether the cost is going to bankrupt me.
Also, for those who require plans similar to the one previously provided, COBRA (18 months) is decent -- expensive but presumably less expensive than "equivalent" in the marketplace if we're talking about a good corporate plan.
Just that COBRA costs quite a lot.
A lot of people would be better off doing "intra-preneurship", meaning trying to innovate and strategize within their current company to make the job more fun, gain more autonomy, and advance their career prospects.
Or, if you work at Google, push for a new chat app. It’ll probably be approved.
My current employer, Google, seems particularly amenable to internal entrepreneurship. After all, they're essentially paying you not to create new external businesses.
Whereas working for a big company, you have a fairly reliable shot at bringing in a decent income with some stability.
Nothing is guaranteed of course.
Also feels like chasing a lottery win. Some folks might be chasing a financial safety net first that is smaller, because the variables and formula of everyone's life in what they have to take care of is valid.
I'm very happy for people who are able to swing for the fences, and also happy for the people working on getting more hits to bigger hits to swing for the fench. I know the latter is a much more sure way to get an outcome to have time freedom to really swing fences.
Everyone does what they best can do, if there's not an option in front of them at work, some people have to try to create the option themselves if it's not geographically accessible.
Assuming that's in an environment where it's possible (no shitty office politics, etc), the monetary returns from that ain't gonna be competing to a succesful project. Nor is the freedom and satisfaction ever going to be the same. And of course all progress in that front, is a round of layoffs or a change in management away from being nulled.
So, it's a safer path (as much as being an employee is safe these days), but not achieving the same thing.
Companies can promote you every 1-2 years, but you need to start that clock.
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Also, within companies, you need everyone’s unanimous permission to do anything.. if a problem is big enough, the team would do it themselves. If the problem is too small, the team won’t integrate.
Or, more likely, 0%
First startup went nowhere and took on a contract role after 9 months. Then tried another startup with a co-founder I met at one of the startups where I worked in the interim. About 6 months building something awesome, but no commercial path. Spent 1 month with him and another co-founder on a fintech product but realized much faster that once again that there was no viable go-to-market strategy. Started another company and built a product that seemed like it had legs. We had one early user that absolutely loved the product and we thought all we needed was to find more users like her. Turns out that she was a false signal because we never found another user like her and I'm about to shut that one down after almost a year to avoid DE franchise fee next year.
If anyone is in a situation like this/thinking about doing something like this, I've gathered some of my lessons learned: https://chrlschn.dev/blog/2024/12/lessons-learned-from-worki...
If I had to sum it up: always build the minimal thing that can be "sold". Use AI to build the dirtiest MVP as fast as possible. Even better if your "MVP" is a deck and you can get people to put money down to wait. Figure out your GTM and messaging with that deck. If you are an engineer, you must resist that urge to build until you're sure you can find enough people that have this problem and want to pay you to solve it. Don't work with a non-technical co-founder if they claim if you build it, customers will come. Don't work with a non-technical co-founder that can't demonstrate an ability to sell. If the vibes feel off, get out fast. Don't form a company with a co-founder until you absolutely have to (like your personal life, don't get married until you're absolutely sure).
Lots of mistakes and lessons learned during that time having founded startups that went nowhere, been an employee in startups that went nowhere, and left startups that are actually crushing it. I have seen a big swath of the gamut at this point with some regrets in retrospect.
Having learned many of the same lessons as you I can 100% backup everything you said in your “sum it up” paragraph!
The only caveat I would add is to the “make an MVP with AI”. I think MVPs generated directly out of ChatGPT/Claude are so easy now (or at least it can appear so on the face of it) that many people are just barely going beyond that - but to any experienced eye, that approach is quite transparent and can look very low-value (even if the idea is actually a good one).
Now if that person is a skilled salesperson then that might work.
But, for most people, I think it’s still very important to demonstrate good instincts, taste and strategic/commercial understanding when building such an MVP. And that means editing and shaping the output just enough to meet your vision for the product. So to agree with you - definitely, 100%, use AI as much as possible - but don’t assume that you can put zero work in on top and have that MVP be effective. Because the 10 year old down the street has the exact same tool as you - so if you are just relying verbatim on that tool’s output- it’s going to be hard to stand out.
I’d still definitely agree to spend as little time as physically possible on the MVP - with the above caveat.
Having said all that… a lot of historical wisdom on the topic of MVPs has been turned upside down since gen AI became mainstream, so on the flip side you could argue: create 1000 MVPs in an hour, publish them all, see what generates interest…*
Hmm.. I think I just argued against my own point.
* (I’m not really seriously suggesting anyone do this, but I’m also not entirely discounting this as an approach either…)
I had a non-technical friend recently spin up a full blown startup with customers using nothing but Claude + Replit (not plugging, but just sharing to show that it's real: https://bullship.co). He came up with the idea after talking to a friend and finding that indeed, the market had only two major competitors who both charged too much for many smaller customers.
The code is throwaway in my book, but it's enough to validate the idea by actually getting people to pay for something they can use. It won't scale, but that's fine; by the point that he needs it to scale, he'll be able to hire people with more skill to fix or rebuild it.
Build only after customers have thrown money at you.
As it’s at that point you have enough clarity and specificity to build.
This advice is better if you have 10k twitter followers. For example I'm building something cool, a no-code visual regression tool. I don't have any real network. Besides cold outreach (and hn, ph), what else is there? Would love to know what you recommend.
I misread “personal wife” (in Kripky’s voice from big bang theory) and after I was done chuckling, I started thinking of something funny to comment about the other types of wives there are… then reread your comment and… yeah.
So yeah, in many ways, it is just like a marriage when you formally create a company with a co-founder. Don't do it unless you need to and if you do, make sure that you can get your assets back if you are bringing existing assets to the table.
I’ve slowly spent all my savings, moved back in with my folks, and still don’t have a job. It’s rough. I have no idea what I wanna do in life. So I decided to join the navy recently, to give me the next 4 years to figure it out.
If yes, you just might be depressed or haven't realized that a job might be shit anyway.
If no, interesting though that you are aware of hn (i have to assume a certain interest because i know plenty of software people avg ones, not being aware of hn at all).
But hf at the navy.
I was in the army before uni - it was grueling but awesome. You'll find your way fren
I had contract work, then couldn't get a tech job a couple years ago after a lot of applications. Completely broke. Drove down the road and felt kinda foolish seeing people paying less but decent money for non-tech. got fast food / hospitality worker. Low stress, physical work. Can't imagine where I'd be if I didn't.
I kind of get it though, you start doing something else then you don't have much time and energy to improve on what you want to do (such as tech) for a while, a recipe for people to get trapped, unless you can save money and reclaim time somehow to improve, or the supply/demand shifts..
anyone could fail at anything, all I know for certain is the worst thing a person can do is nothing.