This shouldn’t be controversial to pass. TikTok has (allegedly) shared US customer data overseas. And they’re effectively controlled by an adversarial state. And that state doesn’t reciprocate by letting US companies freely operate social media services there. So ban it. I don’t even think the divestment option matters - how can we trust that it actually results in a separation from China or that these privacy violating practices stop?
I am surprised there is such resistance here to be honest. The Chinese government has had trade restrictions for decades - including forced disclosures and forced local ownership for investing firms, forced disclosure of tech, been caught hacking into systems and stealing IP etc. - as well as banning multiple western companies apps under their own excuses without substantive evidence.
Why should the US or any other trade partner with China therefore keep such a lopsided relationship? Seems like the US has a case here IMO, given all this history and practice. We should have been tougher on this years ago
> I am surprised there is such resistance here to be honest.
You’ll probably not be surprised to find out there’s a lot of anti-US sentiment courtesy of Chinese, Russian and Iranian propaganda.
Plenty of younger folks fall for it, same stuff in the 70s and 80s on college campuses with supposedly well educated people talking about how the Soviet Union had higher standards of living than the US, and the “tyranny” was all just American propaganda.
The reason an entity chooses to behave in an ethical or moral fashion is because they believe it's the right or just way to behave, and not what happens to be the most expedient behavior in some arbitrary moment of time. And principles can cost you in the short-term, but tend to reap tremendous dividends in the long-run. One of those dividends is soft power. Hearing a relatively stoic adult Russian chess grandmaster start to choke up a bit when describing the joy he felt (as a grown man no less) when the USSR collapsed and 'Donald Duck came to Russia' was something quite unforgettable for me. As he described it, literally everybody was picking up Donald Duck stuff - as much as a symbol of the end of one era, as the beginning of another.
But now? In my lifetime it feels like America's soft power has gone from the sort that could make grown men cry with joy, to basically nonexistent. And I think a big part of it is that we are no longer seen as behaving in a principled fashion. We just do whatever is convenient at the moment and then wrap it in some grandstanding and a whole lot of propaganda. Even with this silly event, I think there's an interesting nuance. The government was so concerned about the tremendous national security threat of TikTok that, just 2 months, ago Biden decided to start his very own TikTok account. [1] It went like you'd expect. But imagine it didn't. Imagine he actually managed to gain some traction. Would he, today, still be looking to sign off on a ban of it?
TikTok has (allegedly) shared US customer data overseas.
They’re hardly unique to that end, no? I’m with you that this is dumb but mostly because I don’t see ByteDance holding even half its value for another decade.
Oh man the "sell Tiktok" thing is just pure corporate welfare for whatever US-based BigCo buys Tiktok. Spoiler alert, it will be one of the BigCo's that enthusiastically lobbied for this bill. Regulatory capture at its finest, in service of a social media tri-opoly.
Microsoft and Google must be absolutely salivating right now, imagine being able to buy your way into operating a major social network in 2024, and not only do the Feds not come after you for antitrust, they actually mandate the sale and greenlight it in advance!
In this instance someone will gain something short term, I readily acknowledge.
That said, how is this different from Chinas long standing economic policies that have effectively banned many western companies from doing business there and longstanding practices of stealing trade secrets[0][1][2]?
Or how about forcing companies to transfer technology and business operations to local Chinese firms[3] under threat of being banned in the Chinese market?
Needing to win a bidding war for TikTok is very different from Washington's confiscating TikTok and giving it to one of its corporate friends. The winner of the bidding war might never get enough money out of TikTok to offset what it paid for TikTok. The seller (ByteDance) is not stupid, and anyone who want to bid can bid.
It should not be possible to “ban” software. I am appalled that the government, in collusion with OS vendors, can tell me what software I’m allowed to run on my personal devices.
In an ideal world, TikTok would be prevented from doing business in the US, but everyone would continue to download the TikTok client and act like nothing happened. Just like with Napster and BitTorrent.
It definitely is possible to "ban" software in China. Just block the network addresses needed to run the app. Perhaps the USA could license technology from China to do it? But that would be too ironic.
Actually, without something like a GFW, the USA can't do more than "ban" app stores from carrying the app in the US market, they can't even really prevent you from switching markets and using an overseas credit card. But they can definitely ban American based tiktokers from getting paid, or American based advertisers from using the platform commercially, which will probably hurt more than anything.
I think you’re missing the point that these programs are now indescribably powerful for swaying social sentiment. They can be made into weapons of mass disruption. Of course you and I want the internet to be completely open, but the world has changed drastically since the early days and bad actors have created software that gives them huge amounts of power. It’s utterly irresponsible not to regulate such a thing.
And I don't understand why this isn't expressed a simple quid pro quo - China has banned US services (FB etc) for years - turnabout is fair play. Or in other words, you can make money by making our people crazy and stupid when we can make yours dumb.
> And I don't understand why this isn't expressed a simple quid pro quo
Because the current situation is already quid pro quo. The rule now is US companies can operate in China if they obey the same rules in China that Chinese companies have to obey in China, and Chinese companies can operate in the US if they obey the same rules in the US that US companies have to obey.
FB is not in China because China requires social media companies to turn over the identities of posters that post things the Chinese government does not like. FB does not want to do that and so FB is not allowed in China.
Everything that people speculate that TikTok might do or be used for has already happened and continues to happen on Facebook. The quid pro quo approach would be for the US to regulate or ban those things on all social media apps in that operate in the US.
> TikTok has (allegedly) shared US customer data overseas.
When discussing a law let's not discuss alleged things, be precise and talk about facts, was it done or not?
> And they’re effectively controlled by an adversarial state.
Do you think everything in this world should be controlled by the USA?
> And that state doesn’t reciprocate by letting US companies freely operate social media services there. So ban it.
Can you please remind me the USA is a democracy? if it is a democracy, then it should not compare itself to other forms of governments and how they operate. Every country has its laws, companies should abide by them, and the USA as far as I am aware was a proponent of free trade, capitalism and democracy
It is perfectly okay to be biased against China, they are biased against my rights as a human.
They do not deserve the benefit of the doubt, they don’t give those who “disappear” for speaking out against their government the benefit of the doubt either.
TikTok managers overseeing the protection of U.S. data "sometimes instruct workers to share data with colleagues in other parts of the company and with ByteDance workers without going through official channels, according to current and former employees and internal documents viewed by The Wall Street Journal."
> > And they’re effectively controlled by an adversarial state.
> Do you think everything in this world should be controlled by the USA?
I think that things that pump directly into the minds of the American public should not be controlled by adversaries of America. That is different from what you said, and the difference matters.
> When discussing a law let's not discuss alleged things, be precise and talk about facts, was it done or not?
You know full well that it’s not possible to monitor or examine what these companies do, because we don’t have total transparency.
> So much bias in your comment.
The bias isn’t with me, but with you. Obviously you could have taken one second to do a search and find numerous articles on this, such as this one, where TikTok ADMITTED to storing US data in China, which means they lied under oath. That’s why a divestment is not enough to trust them:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandralevine/2023/06/21/tikt...
> Do you think everything in this world should be controlled by the USA?
I think the CCP is a corrupt authoritarian regime that used violent revolution and force to come into power and stay there. Most people don’t trust such regimes to control anything. It’s not about the US, or even Chinese people, but about Chinese leadership.
> Every country has its laws, companies should abide by them, and the USA as far as I am aware was a proponent of free trade, capitalism and democracy
I’m not sure what point you’re making. Banning TikTok worldwide would be consistent with all three.
The sell option makes no sense. How would it work that TikTok is owned by the US only within the US but by China for the rest of the world? Sure the US-based entity of ByteDance could be sold to a US-based company but couldn't they just relocate all digital-related assets and operations (databases, app servers, developers, etc) outside of the USA, e.g. Canada or Mexico? They should have just banned the whole thing.
Anyway, the US should be prepared to ban or regulate other platforms, because all the propaganda that would have come out of TikTok will instead appear in Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Twitter, etc. Social media really is the worst invention of our time and honestly I'd be happy to see those platforms go.
If Bytedance tried to dodge it then the app stores (which are all run by American companies) wouldn't be allowed to list the TikTok app and no US company would be allowed to host the website. [1]
So, yes, the website would still work when hosted outside of the US and people could sideload the app but in general it would kill TikTok.
Mexico has about half as many TikTok users as the US. I would think that ByteDance would continue that operation, as well as other major user populations in Indonesia, Brazil, etc.
How is this different from the past where people wanted to be actors on TV and/or movies?
When I was growing up I remember some said they wanted to be Barbie, or GI Joe.
Cultural influence will always be a “thing” as it were. Doesn’t mean it stays a primarily thing or wha t have you. I don’t think it says anything meaningful about someone’s future per se
It seems as if the regulations have just been weakened over the years, and they're of course nonexistent with streaming and cable. Maybe that should change. Tiktok is just one of the starker examples of a company that COULD be using its algorithmic power for good and choosing to use it for greed, the well-being of users be damned.
I saw a video of a girl with pushed up boobs, and then a video celebrating april 28 1924, the birth of the communist party. About what I'd expect, they certainly have lots of control by the communist party since I doubt such a video would be popular naturally, the push up girl is more what you expect from organic content so there is a mix.
It's two different sets of creators -> two content pools. Also, there are many, many users outside of US or China, with their own regional content pools.
ByteDance exercises a LOT of editorial control over what gets promoted in the stream, though. If TikTok pushed educational videos on users in the US, you'd see everyone clamoring to be Steve Mould.
Yes the chancellor of Germany just got his TikTok account a couple of days ago and they said that they are using a separat phone without any sensible information and access for it.
” In 2020, India imposed a ban on TikTok and dozens of other Chinese apps, including the messaging app WeChat, over privacy and security concerns. The ban came shortly after a clash between Indian and Chinese troops at a disputed Himalayan border killed 20 Indian soldiers and injured dozens.
The companies were given a chance to respond to questions on privacy and security requirements but the ban was made permanent in January 2021.”
Others posted great reasons to dislike TikTok. I hear you, but I'll miss it because of how great the recommendations are/were for me. Instagram's recommendation engine is in a lower league in my experience.
It's important to click "not interested" on meme videos for both platforms though. Instagram keeps reverting to meme videos for me (probably because my habits get away from me), but my TikTok account never gives me memes or what I consider low value content.
I wish there was something more like HN, in that it's text-centric, doesn't put my dopamine mechanics into overdrive, but with the content multitude and recommendation accuracy of TikTok. HN is great, but tech stuff isn't the only stuff I care about, and I've not seen good manual moderation scale beyond a frontpage or so.
Read a book. Or watch TV, stream a movie, documentary, an audio book, play a video game. There are plenty of substitutes to media consumption/entertainment, and some are actually good for your mental health.
Readit News
Why should the US or any other trade partner with China therefore keep such a lopsided relationship? Seems like the US has a case here IMO, given all this history and practice. We should have been tougher on this years ago
You’ll probably not be surprised to find out there’s a lot of anti-US sentiment courtesy of Chinese, Russian and Iranian propaganda.
Plenty of younger folks fall for it, same stuff in the 70s and 80s on college campuses with supposedly well educated people talking about how the Soviet Union had higher standards of living than the US, and the “tyranny” was all just American propaganda.
But now? In my lifetime it feels like America's soft power has gone from the sort that could make grown men cry with joy, to basically nonexistent. And I think a big part of it is that we are no longer seen as behaving in a principled fashion. We just do whatever is convenient at the moment and then wrap it in some grandstanding and a whole lot of propaganda. Even with this silly event, I think there's an interesting nuance. The government was so concerned about the tremendous national security threat of TikTok that, just 2 months, ago Biden decided to start his very own TikTok account. [1] It went like you'd expect. But imagine it didn't. Imagine he actually managed to gain some traction. Would he, today, still be looking to sign off on a ban of it?
[1] - https://www.wired.com/story/joe-biden-tiktok-campaign-commen...
They’re hardly unique to that end, no? I’m with you that this is dumb but mostly because I don’t see ByteDance holding even half its value for another decade.
Microsoft and Google must be absolutely salivating right now, imagine being able to buy your way into operating a major social network in 2024, and not only do the Feds not come after you for antitrust, they actually mandate the sale and greenlight it in advance!
That said, how is this different from Chinas long standing economic policies that have effectively banned many western companies from doing business there and longstanding practices of stealing trade secrets[0][1][2]?
Or how about forcing companies to transfer technology and business operations to local Chinese firms[3] under threat of being banned in the Chinese market?
[0]: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-64206950
[1]: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/28/1-in-5-companies-say-china-s...
[2]: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/06/technology/china-generati...
[3]: https://www.axios.com/2021/12/21/why-us-giants-keep-caving-t...
In an ideal world, TikTok would be prevented from doing business in the US, but everyone would continue to download the TikTok client and act like nothing happened. Just like with Napster and BitTorrent.
Actually, without something like a GFW, the USA can't do more than "ban" app stores from carrying the app in the US market, they can't even really prevent you from switching markets and using an overseas credit card. But they can definitely ban American based tiktokers from getting paid, or American based advertisers from using the platform commercially, which will probably hurt more than anything.
Because the current situation is already quid pro quo. The rule now is US companies can operate in China if they obey the same rules in China that Chinese companies have to obey in China, and Chinese companies can operate in the US if they obey the same rules in the US that US companies have to obey.
FB is not in China because China requires social media companies to turn over the identities of posters that post things the Chinese government does not like. FB does not want to do that and so FB is not allowed in China.
Everything that people speculate that TikTok might do or be used for has already happened and continues to happen on Facebook. The quid pro quo approach would be for the US to regulate or ban those things on all social media apps in that operate in the US.
> TikTok has (allegedly) shared US customer data overseas.
When discussing a law let's not discuss alleged things, be precise and talk about facts, was it done or not?
> And they’re effectively controlled by an adversarial state.
Do you think everything in this world should be controlled by the USA?
> And that state doesn’t reciprocate by letting US companies freely operate social media services there. So ban it.
Can you please remind me the USA is a democracy? if it is a democracy, then it should not compare itself to other forms of governments and how they operate. Every country has its laws, companies should abide by them, and the USA as far as I am aware was a proponent of free trade, capitalism and democracy
It is perfectly okay to be biased against China, they are biased against my rights as a human.
They do not deserve the benefit of the doubt, they don’t give those who “disappear” for speaking out against their government the benefit of the doubt either.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/tiktok-pledged-to-prot...
> Do you think everything in this world should be controlled by the USA?
I think that things that pump directly into the minds of the American public should not be controlled by adversaries of America. That is different from what you said, and the difference matters.
You know full well that it’s not possible to monitor or examine what these companies do, because we don’t have total transparency.
> So much bias in your comment.
The bias isn’t with me, but with you. Obviously you could have taken one second to do a search and find numerous articles on this, such as this one, where TikTok ADMITTED to storing US data in China, which means they lied under oath. That’s why a divestment is not enough to trust them: https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandralevine/2023/06/21/tikt...
> Do you think everything in this world should be controlled by the USA?
I think the CCP is a corrupt authoritarian regime that used violent revolution and force to come into power and stay there. Most people don’t trust such regimes to control anything. It’s not about the US, or even Chinese people, but about Chinese leadership.
> Every country has its laws, companies should abide by them, and the USA as far as I am aware was a proponent of free trade, capitalism and democracy
I’m not sure what point you’re making. Banning TikTok worldwide would be consistent with all three.
Its clear TikTok has not done the legwork and deployed significant spend on PAC and lobbying.
Anyway, the US should be prepared to ban or regulate other platforms, because all the propaganda that would have come out of TikTok will instead appear in Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, Twitter, etc. Social media really is the worst invention of our time and honestly I'd be happy to see those platforms go.
How is this such a common opinion while we also critcize the great firewall?
Dead Comment
So, yes, the website would still work when hosted outside of the US and people could sideload the app but in general it would kill TikTok.
[1] https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/8038...
Dead Comment
This was around the time I decided that I didn't care what happened to TikTok.
I have a 1st grader and one day she said she wants to be youtuber when she grows up. She learned this from her peers.
Prior to this answer, she wanted to be a doctor.
I asked her what happened to being a doctor, and she says, she can be both (thank goodness, probably the best answer I can wish for).
When I was growing up I remember some said they wanted to be Barbie, or GI Joe.
Cultural influence will always be a “thing” as it were. Doesn’t mean it stays a primarily thing or wha t have you. I don’t think it says anything meaningful about someone’s future per se
I'm begging of you please let me login.
Douyin, Douyin, Douyin, Douyin,
Even though I'm not a Chinese citizen.
Your algorithm's like TLC,
the cable channel, how it used to be,
serving education, not cheap junk vids.
Just months until Tiktok gets banned.
There'll be now more Bytedance in this land.
To save yourself, just please think of the kids.
As someone who grew up in the edutainment 90s, I'm starting to think that there might actually have been something to the CTA et al. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulations_on_children%27s_te... )
It seems as if the regulations have just been weakened over the years, and they're of course nonexistent with streaming and cable. Maybe that should change. Tiktok is just one of the starker examples of a company that COULD be using its algorithmic power for good and choosing to use it for greed, the well-being of users be damned.
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Governments that are banning Tiktok:
- Taliban in Afghanistan
- Congress in USA
Governments that ban federal employees and military from installing third party apps on secure devices:
- Pretty much all of them
https://mashable.com/article/tiktok-ban-countries
It's also banned for the entire country in Nepal and Somalia. And oh yeah, it also seems to be effectively banned in one more very large country.
China.
” In 2020, India imposed a ban on TikTok and dozens of other Chinese apps, including the messaging app WeChat, over privacy and security concerns. The ban came shortly after a clash between Indian and Chinese troops at a disputed Himalayan border killed 20 Indian soldiers and injured dozens. The companies were given a chance to respond to questions on privacy and security requirements but the ban was made permanent in January 2021.”
That is 1.4 billion people.
It's important to click "not interested" on meme videos for both platforms though. Instagram keeps reverting to meme videos for me (probably because my habits get away from me), but my TikTok account never gives me memes or what I consider low value content.
I wish there was something more like HN, in that it's text-centric, doesn't put my dopamine mechanics into overdrive, but with the content multitude and recommendation accuracy of TikTok. HN is great, but tech stuff isn't the only stuff I care about, and I've not seen good manual moderation scale beyond a frontpage or so.
Do you expect TikTok to sell? Or am I missing something?
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