I want a "dumb" but well-built electric car... No side mirror lights, no motorized trunks, no suite of cabin sensors trying to figure out what I want, no air conditioned seats, and definitely no elaborate, janky, hilariously expensive infotainment system. Just put that engineering into the suspension and steering, please.
I want a tablet mount and good A/C. Maybe power windows and nice speakers. And I will take the 900lbs and $10k+ that shaves off, thank you.
When I hear this I’m reminded of surveys asking people how the government should spend its money. A majority will say cut spending, but wouldn’t agree on what to cut spending on.
“I’m ok with spending on defence, social security and education” while another wants spending only on unemployment, health care and policing. That’s the paradox where a supermajority supports cutting spending and “streamlining” government but there isn’t majority support for cutting any one thing.
So it is with cars. You want a “tablet mount and good AC. Maybe power windows and nice speakers”. Some other consumer will say “I can’t get around without GPS so a good maps app on a large screen is non negotiable but get rid of everything else.” And so on. To make a car that appeals to everyone, you have to put most features in. Kinda like an American Congress Omnibus Bill.
Cars aren't like governments, though: the Toyota Corolla doesn't hold a monopoly on anything.
Why don't we have more specialized vehicles catering to small, passionate niches?
A modern Jeep or Land Rover looks just like a modern BMW or Audi SUV. The former brands were made by offering minimal rugged off-roaders, the latter by offering luxury vehicles. Now they've been blended into the same bland category.
What about beach buggies, or even the Yaris/Matrix/Fit class of light get-arounds? Gone.
What about the old nimble 6'-bed Ford Rangers, Chevy S-10s, Toyota Pickups? Gone, replaced with monstrous lifted 4'-bed wannabe minivans.
I understand why we can't have a meaningful choice between different types of government in the same area. But why must it be that way with consumer products?
I hear your point, but the given example? GPS? Does anyone prefer an auto manufacturers software GUI over the GUI of their phone? CarPlay and the Android equivalent for the win.
The way around it is to allow cars to be built the way we build PCs. For electric cars, that kind of modularization should be possible. Naturally, this means some of the more ridiculous requirements like 'automatic breaking' and 'remote turn off switch' need to be removed though.
Better speakers is an easy add on. Power windows are probably uncontroversial. I don’t think there is wide demand for built in gps. I just don’t see the problem you describe. Design a basic dumb car base that can be extended with addons. There may be regulatory and other non-necessary obstacles but the ideal seems widely agreeable.
An infotainment is practically a legal requirement, since backup cameras are mandated by law in the USA. Since you already need a screen and a computer, you might as well add some more functionality.
My Volvo back up camera now lags because of all of the software updates... I'm pretty sure it's not compliant any more with standards... The updates also reduced original functionality like the 360 degree camera view as a default, which took away a major feature I bought the car for.
I also worry that there may be a point where android auto updates stop completely and the feature goes away altogether due to incompatibility overall... Likely even before the car is 6 years old. These cars aren't made to last anymore... I that case, they should cost a lot less than previous generations, or there should be a solid buyback program in place.
I don't want chat GPT, it is pretty much guaranteed to be obsolete in 4 years.... Just install a hot swappable PC in the car instead perhaps.
That's the issue - might as well not add that functionality. I had a 2014 Ford with a small but adequate screen for the backup cam, and the radio/bluetooth were based on physical buttons and knobs. Perfectly adequate, and preferable to a touchscreen interface.
I used to think that was a good idea. But now I have a car with both backup camera and sensors, and I find myself relying much more on the sensors than the camera. It helps that the implementation is intuitive -- slow beeps at 1 meter, then increasing frequency, then continuous beep, then automatic brake.
My biggest bugbear here is the overly tight integration. A great many of the problems, from my perspective, are that the days of swapping out a head unit that you hate for one that you like has become largely impractical.
My Volkswagen e-Up has a reverse camera even though it doesn't have what I'd call "infotainment" - just a hyper basic screen for radio, it just happens to also display the camera feed when needed.
My backup camera screen is actually in the rear view mirror. There is nothing but a small, monochrome display in the dash, and that just shows the radio station, time and AC temp setting.
Adding functionality there makes the parts more costly and the extra complexity increases the chance that it fails. You really don't have to add the complexity there, and the bare minimum hardware needed to display a simple camera feed wouldn't be powerful enough to function as an infotainment system anyway.
> And I will take the 900lbs and $10k+ that shaves off, thank you.
Going from digital to analog control is more likely to add weight and cost, so you aren't going to save in that regard. Specifically going back from the infotainment system to an old fashioned analog control panel would likely add more cost and weight than it saves.
You can save almost 1/3 to 1/2 of the 900 lbs going to manual seats from electric in some cars. It is amazing how much some of the convenience features weigh. Power tailgates? Power seats? Power sunroof? Sunroof at all? Glass and motors are the enemy.
After working software side in automotive, a lot of the features you stated are completely different areas of the company. This could be part of the problem, since they don't think in terms of one cohesive product and try to jam as many features as they can into a vehicle.
Without getting into the details, automotive acts like a start up with money and no idea what to actually build. Even worse, they have established leadership who in all their hubris thinks they can navigate development in bleeding edge technology they haven't the first idea on how to go about it.
A feature in the infotainment system was my responsibility. I was writing services to consume opt-in data and give user feedback. They pivoted the tech available to me for development six times in a six month span when my deadline was around eight months. I couldn't get anyone to understand that good software takes time. Apparently the automotive veterans around me said that, "this is just how it is" and my resignation followed shortly after. But all this jank shit and half baked design of what you get as a package deal in your vehicle is the result of an industry that is woefully behind in terms of a well operating "tech" company. Those features you claim to want to get rid of are the same features that allow them to claim they are "luxury" and to justify the cost of a vehicle that probably should have taken a fraction of the effort and cost to make with any sort of competency.
This is ultimately why Tesla is a crying shame and I wonder what it would have looked like without Elon's interference.
It also points out the fallacy and lie of electric car companies caring about the environment. They don't. It's just the new thing to sell. Just like every company known to man is parroting sustainability now.
Everyone can make a good car now, they are a commodity now. So to differentiate in the market you turn to nonsense (pointless features you can talk about) and obfuscation (confusing pricing and options and fees, ala airlines)
This is becoming so widespread, it’s no longer just a byproduct of how a project or a product is managed. It’s an explicit guidance that is explicitly stated in the form of “No feature should take more than 1-2 months. 3 months feature work is the longest term we should plan and consider. Everything we work on from planning to design to implementation to deployment needs to be in the hand of a customer at most in 2-3 months max” I even had this hilarious conversation with my manager once.
I asked: “You know how broken this feature is, right? Like if you even deviate from the simple announcement example in any way, you’ll probably be broken in a completely unknown way. We’re providing an ‘alternative’ that only implements a 1/10 of the scenarios but nonetheless exposes the same interface to users”
He said: “yeah, that’s fine. The most important thing is to deliver something for users to use. To even know if anyone wants this at all or if no one will use it”
I perplexedly asked: “but how would you know if people are not using it because they don’t want it, or if they are using it because they try and it’s hopelessly broken?”
He said: “We’ll fix it. If they are not using it because it rough or broken, then we’ll fix it. We will wait for feedback about what’s broken and fix the problem they run into. If people want to use something and they find issues, they’ll just report it.”
I said: “… do you do that? You try a feature in a new product or a tool or a feature, and when it doesn’t work at all, do you start file feedback items and work with that company to make sure their feature work? I know i don’t. I just move on until they fix it or find a competitor who has a better alternative”
He said: “no, most people will report problems and we can fix them as they come. Also we should tell from telemetry what people are trying and what’s not working and what we should fix vs not”
I said: “yeah, that makes sense.“, knowing that our telemetry is also generally broken because it’s implemented in the same way and generally we do the work when business folks come back asking for some data or complaining how the data we provide doesn’t add up.
You can buy a 2011 Nissan Leaf that has had a 2018 Nissan Leaf battery pack installed, giving it 200+ miles of range, for like $15k. I want something like that!
This is why I salivate over Icon4x4 vintage car rebuilds. Check any video the owner posts on YouTube. All of the tech is state of the art analog stuff. It's the definition of "dumb and absolutely perfectly crafted."
Make sure you really want to drive and live with an old design before dropping tons of money on a restoration. Driving a leaf spring suspension all solid axles and body on frame truck is wayyyy different than modern independent suspension unibody frame trucks.
You might not remember it but back in the heyday of those old trucks people were flipping and rolling them on the freeway all the time--there are conditions and speeds that they just plain are not safe to drive, and a lot of that comes from their inherent design which Icon can't fix.
That exists - it's called a VW e-UP(along with its sisters - Seat Mii Electric and Skoda Citigo EV). Super basic, analogue gauges, it has a phone mount instead of an infotainment system....you hop in, turn the key(!) and drive. 160 miles range, can rapid charge, easily fits 4 adults or in our case 2 adults, baby seat, pram and Costco shopping. I love that car more than I love our 400bhp Volvo - it just works, gets us everywhere in our daily life, and costs absolutely nothing to drive. And yes, it has A/C, electric windows, and even heated seats. I'm keeping this car forever, absolutely not interested in any future replacement with VW's ID.1 and such, I know they will be packed with crappy tech that will drive me mad.
Cooled seats are just a couple of fans, a switch, and perforations in the leather. In some climates, that’s totally worth the modest expense and minuscule (usually zero) maintenance.
And I will take the 900lbs and $10k+ that shaves off, thank you.
If a manufacturer can save 900lbs they'll just put in a bigger battery instead. People are anxious about range, and manufacturers sell more long range cars.
And if they can knock $10k off the bill of materials they'll just make $10k more profit on the vehicle.
The choices that go into building a car are about driving mass market sales and increasing the bottom line. They aren't about catering to specific user needs.
This made me laugh. I've also compared the recent styling to a suppository on wheels. I suppose it must be government regulations about MPG that drives an aerodynamic shape where all sedans now have the same weird shape.
I am hoping that EV conversions will lead to an "open source" approach to cars, where there will be recycled, old chassis stripped of anything proprietary and installed with standardised control chips. If this means government regulation and a 110km/h baked-in speed limit, I would happily compromise. I'm already noticing something similar occur with bicycles, where there are advocates [1] and [2] of non-proprietary bike parts.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/@durianriders
[2] https://www.youtube.com/@PathLessPedaledTV
I went a long way down this route a year or so ago, having found an absolutely perfect 1986 porsche 911 "donor car," however the amount of regulation the car needed to comply with, the engineering time and the expense of the motors, batteries and controllers (that would have to be custom made to fit the car) meant that I was going to spend a quarter million all in. I could have saved maybe a third of that taking a used car off a scrapheap, but then it defeats the point of ending up with a car I actually wanted to drive.
I am theoretically OK with smart TVs because there is a real advantage to fancy upscaling/interpolating/tonemapping ASICs like they ship with now. The HDMI link limits you in some respects, and the downstream devices just dont have that kind of horsepower (or have extreme difficulty displaying legal HDR content, in the case of PCs).
The awful UIs and spam though... Yeah, make it dumber please.
A family jaguar had an absolutely enormous computer unit that had to get replaced, all for... A absolutely horrible infotainment system that literally singlehandedly drags down the consumer reports rating
It’s how I feel about my TV too - god I hate smart tvs. All I want is a dumb display I can hook a media pc up to. I can make that setup do literally anything I want.
The Tesla Model 3 is surprisingly barebones. The display/infotainment has unnecessary extras, but the car has wheels, seats, a stereo, and AC, sitting on a battery.
Pair your phone with BT and you'll never touch the infotainment again.
It's not cheap, but it's not overcomplicated in daily use if you ignore the infotainment.
Perhaps that is why. EVs kinda follow the "tyrrany of the rocket equation" because so much weight is their batteries (aka their rocket fuel). Taking a few pounds of features off also saves some battery that is no longer needed.
Unless you want to turn on your wipers or the fog lights. It's better than before witg the latest update but the experience still sucks, especially the fog lights. I don't understand how that got past safety checks.
Things mandated by law in the US: horns, engine hoods, windshield wipers, mirrors, airbags, tire pressure monitors, backup cameras, seat belts, bumpers, anti-lock brakes, automatic emergency braking, electronic stability control, LATCH systems, mufflers/emission control systems, headlights, tail lights, stop lights, and turn signals.
Additionally air intakes may not be more than 4 inches in height, steering wheels must be circular and at least 13 inches in diameter, and tires must not discharge materials towards the rear of the vehicle.
Some of the junk is from lessons learned the hard way. For example, backup cameras dramatically reduce the chance of you running over your own children in your driveway.
EV cars are not quite there yet on price and economies of scale, so they have to have all the "luxury" frills to justify the $10-15k higher price tag vs the same ICE car.
Something closer to what you want will come eventually though. We're just still early in the EV market as a % of overall vehicles sold. Prices have already come down a lot and will continue to do so in the future.
Just the powered seat option on the Mustang Mach E is a $1500 add-on. Add memory capability is $1500 more. BlueCruise is $2100. I don't know about the weight claim, but the price estimate doesn't seem too far off.
Toss in "no phoning home" and that's a car that I would absolutely consider buying. I am not aware of any electric cars on the market right now that I would be willing to buy.
I recently bought a Chevy Bolt that pretty much meets these criteria. It’s a fine car, without many frills, and about $10K less than a basic Tesla Model 3.
Motorised seats were the single fixed requirement when we bought our car. That’s because we only have one car, my wife and me drives it similarly often.
The problem is you end up paying More for what you want because what you want doesn't align with everyone else. These cars are massed produced, so anything deviating from the popular norm ends up becoming custom and costing more, even if the custom design is less complex then the popular design.
Given that everyone else wants those bells and whistles, ironically you get more by paying less which means logically more bells and whistles is the better deal.
A logical person would in turn want the cars with "too much stuff". That is unless you're willing to pay more for less stuff.
> Given that everyone else wants those bells and whistles
I'd argue that almost nobody else wants all those bells and whistles, but most people want a couple of them. So you wind up with all of them, because people will walk away from a vehicle that doesn't have what they want more than walk away from a vehicle that has too many things they don't.
Nah... it's like with dumb SUVs - do you think that everyone wants them? Or the demad was created because it was better for the makers to make them (with relatively lower increase in cost they can charge more for the end product)? Tied with and thanks to Corporate Average Fuel Economy…
In my circle I don't know anyone wanting "infotainmant" - just a regular car to which I can connect my mobile hassle-free without dumb TV screen smack in the middle of the car...
Same goes for mobile phones - most of the people I know want to have regular sized phones (~5-5,5") but now... it's easier to smack ~7" screen to the roof-tile (that they call "phone") and sell at a premium...
Does everyone else want those bells and whistles or have we come into that impression through some misinterpretation? I don't know anybody that wants all that shit. For those who do, upon the misadventure whereupon they are informed of the costs of overcomplicating I suspect there is a large proportion of people who won't want it in short order. I also suspect a large contingent of people who buy into the marketing and upon facing reality, are silently disappointed. And finally people who are somehow insensitive to cost, and disappointment.
This is why there are so many white cars being made and delivered to dealerships in the US. With production still extremely constrained, manufacturers are just limiting what colorways they ship. They know anything new will sell since the lots are so empty, and buyers will just take whatever comes in the latest shipment. Having been new car shopping (and ended up buying used), I'm amazed at how much the car buying process has changed for new cars. You used to be able to order a color and trimline, with factory options without any issues. Now dealers laugh at you and say "Here's what the factory MIGHT send us in the next 6 months. Want to put down a deposit?"
The only thing I like about this change is that there seems to be far less high pressure sales going on.
Not completely. Adaptive cruise control is becoming more common. Some Toyota's have it in all versions for some models. Mercedes A class you have to pay additionally for the basic models.
Agree with all of this, however, I remember when an American car making it to 100k miles without major problems was nearly unheard of. Or at least, that's how I seem to remember it. My parents had several Dodge / Chrysler's in the 1990's that had catastrophic failure before reaching 100k miles. The exception was our Ford Escort which lasted to 180k miles before the engine needed a rebuild, which likely had something do with a sibling not changing the oil for 25k miles.
It seems like we have more reliable engines, drive trains, and less reliable $2 chips that turns those things on.
Absolute garbage. Made me swear off domestic cars.
> we have more reliable engines
I think one of the best inventions to really come into use in the last 25 years is multi-layered steel (MLS) head gaskets. A lot of cars use to pop head gaskets regularly when they were made of compressed paper and other things. After the switch to MLS, even shitty Dodges could go the life of the car with a blown head gasket. Not blowing a head gasket means a lot less wear on every other part of the engine: no more oil in your coolant, coolant in your oil etc.
That and stainless steel exhaust systems are underrated inventions. I remember seeing dropped mufflers on the side of the highway regularly when I was a kid. Then it just kind of... stopped. Didn't find the reason until many years later: the switch to stainless exhausts.
Years ago Jeremy Clarkson wrote in a Times column (where he is generally less trollish than his TV shows) that he rejected the idea that Japanese car makers only copy: they were responsible for the great innovation of the idea that a car could be something that you get in, that starts reliably, and that you don't find yourself guessing whether you'll be able to use it on a day-to-day basis.
People who suffered through cars in the 70s and even 80s would be inclined to agree with him; unfortunately, it turns out that Bill Gates was wrong, and when cars are built the way programmers code, it takes us back to that lamentable state of affairs.
It's definitely more common today, but it did happen even back then. I think part of the issue was that back then more of the population was in the north where the cars would rust before they hit that mileage.
Ironically the private car that holds the world record for the most miles is the Volvo p1800 from the 60's. It wasn't American, but was an interesting feat non the less.
I had the trusty 4.0L I-6 in my '89 Cherokee. 160k miles on it when it was sold to the next owner (local garages didn't want to touch it/wanted to fix way more than needed and I was too far for regular visits to my dad's garage; it now does offroading stuff with the new owner).
My dad has seen these go to 285k before the (original) transmission gave up (which retired the engine too). Over 300k was also reported. Of course, upkeep among mechanics is also likely of higher quality too.
Alas, AMC is no more and Chrysler ruined their engines out of jealousy (at least that's my dad's view on it).
Depending on the year and trim it could have been one of those escorts with the Mazda ‘b’ engine from the Miata, which unlike the Ford motor in my ‘91 Escort that blew a head gasket at just over 100k miles was a good reliable motor.
Interestingly this was a collaboration with the European Ford team as far as I understand (although apparently the end result diverged quite a bit). Maybe they got some hot tips around build quality :)
That was not my experience, nor anything I've ever heard.
As a broad and imprecise statement, American cars in the 80s rarely ran past 100k, while Japanese cars commonly did. I read a few stories of American cars reaching 200k, but I saw a lot of Toyotas sailing past 200k.
And considering how awfully I saw those Toyotas treated, I don't think it had anything to do with maintenance.
Yeah, I haven't seen any actual data. But it seems widely accepted that American automakers in the 80s and 90s lost a lot of market share to foreign makers over (real or perceived) reliability issues.
This is based on the JD Power Initial Quality Survey which can't really be used to measure "quality" because they mix together "things customers get annoyed by" and "actual defects."
For example, if I'm annoyed by having to use the touchscreen in a Tesla Model 3 to open the glove box, that counts as a problem even if it has nothing to do with the actual build quality. So in this case it makes sense that more tech = more things to get annoyed about, whether or not the tech is reliable.
Was thinking similarly. People rave about the slant 6 engine and how it lasts forever, same for the diesel engines used in their trucks but those are Cummins built
Yes. The JD Power Surveys can be VERY useful, but you have to understand the intent of each one, and you have to understand that it may not be what first comes to mind when you read the title.
And also understand that JD makes all of its money from traditional auto manufacturers and has no legal obligation or accountability for accuracy or lack of bias
I haven't owned a car for multiple years, but I might need one again very soon (moving...) and at this time... I don't even want to buy one. It seems like such a hassle. Researching what car company has not plastered microchips all over their car, which will inevitably break. Figuring out which maker has actually tested their car. Figuring out what model is the least technizised. By this time, even second hand cars are mostly from a period where car makers but aweful stuff into their cars...
Just bought a 2023 Toyota Corolla. Disable the telemetry (easy to do, prompted during setup) and you've got a 50 MPG sedan with a basic gauge cluster and standard infotainment screen, but nothing else for less than $25k (excl. taxes)
50mpg is for the non-hybrid version? Or is that the hybrid?
I've been expecting my next car will be a Corolla when my Prius gives up the ghost, but I didn't know they'd reached quite that high with the ICE version.
You may not get the chance. Or at least here in Canada as shown on the national news a woman went to a Toyota dealership and said she'd like the RAV4 Prime (a hybrid). She said they laughed at her, as if someone could just walk in and ask to buy a vehicle I guess. They said it would be an eight year wait (the video interview said but not the print version). I find hard to believe it would take nearly a decade to get a car.
This is a Toyota EV / plug in hybrid problem; Toyota's production numbers for plug in hybrids and EVs are very low (The RAV4 Prime is a plug in hybrid). Toyota still seems reluctant to commit to EVs/PHEVs, so that appears to play a role (they are still trying to push hydrogen fuel cell cars, for example).
As someone shopping for a PHEV in Ontario right now: yeah it's dire. The Prime I've consistently heard is a 2-3 year wait, with the dealers saying Ontario is getting somewhere around 12 for the province because they're all going to BC and Quebec (higher provincial incentives there) and even there it's years out. Kia is the fastest right now but even that's a 10+ month wait for their most comparable PHEV.
The only one that seems easy to get is the Outlander, but that car is also way too big for my needs among other issues.
For the RAV4 Prime it's semi believable. The RAV4 Prime is made in Japan and seems to be limited in production numbers. Toyota in general seems to be still having lingering supply chain issues though.
That is on specific model of vehicle that is difficult to get. Regular cars like the corolla/civic/jetta/rio are all readily available on the dealer lot.
There seems to be a bit of push-back happen to "smart" things in general. As now, many Smart things are tied to some shit-ass SaaS.
We see it in TV, Car, Toaster, Lamps, Mower, Fridge, etc.
I think there is room for manufacturer of just dumb things.
Or how can consumers push? Well, they can't really. If all the options are smart what do you do? Forego the purchase? Or spend many hours shopping around?
The problem isn't the "smart" things. It's that companies are exploiting that "smart" to have more leverage and control over user and increase revenue. Even worse, even some regulations are supporting that practice rather than against them.
In the future (or maybe it already is), most of our appliances and vehicles will be subscription-based just because companies can push it.
> In the future (or maybe it already is), most of our appliances and vehicles will be subscription-based just because companies can push it.
This makes me angry and sad. But evidence so far shows it to be completely true. Free markets are not properly sorting this out, because markets are not really free. Instead they are mostly oligopoly, and can thus control image and regulation and competition.
For instance, you can adjust the color instead of the brightness as needed. You can set them to a different color at night - like red - or to match the content you're watching. You can have it turn off automatically when you leave home, and come back on when you return. You can tie it to sensors, like a door ajar sensor to automatically turn on when you open a closet and back off after.
I generally don't turn lights on or off, but do have RunLessWire passive switches to override.
It's great - we're finally getting to the point of ubiquitous computing where the devices around you meet your needs without you having to engage with them at all.
It's all incredibly reliable if you stick to Philips and Lutron.
My 2012 Toyota Tacoma has no screens, no remote door locks, no power windows or seats. After 11 years and 130k miles, everything still works perfectly. I dread the day I have to replace it. Hopefully that will be in at least another 100k miles.
Simple, mechanical cars (and trucks) don’t seem to exist anymore. It’s a shame.
One of the things I love about my VW GTI is I managed to get the "Wolfsburg Edition", which had everything I wanted and nothing I didn't. Including a lot of physical buttons and no screen in the center console.
People are currently paying $10k+ for 250k mile 2004 Toyota 4Runners. My family has one with 230k and there isn't a single hesitation about using it to tow a trailer across the US.
Plus endless forum support if you do have a problem. Easy to work on. You can retire in that vehicle if you like.
I test drove a 2021 Subaru Outback a few years ago. The center console was a giant touchscreen with no physical buttons. To turn up or down the climate control, it was two taps and a swipe. Ridiculous UX for a car. I opted for the used 2019 based on this single reason.
The whole point of a touchscreen is to support software with dynamic controls - UIs that can change from situation to situation or app to app. I'm never in a situation where I don't need direct physical access to the volume knob or climate controls. I need to keep my eyes on the road. Subaru ended up adding back the buttons in the 2023 model.
Rented a Ford Edge recently and it had a similar setup. The screen had some lag, which just exacerbated my fumbling around for controlling the AC while driving. Hard pass.
One day we'll all look back and realize how much we miss tactile controls that didn't require you to look away from the road in order to enable/disable something trivial or change the music (radio or whatever it may be).
Where I live, you'll get a hefty fine for looking at your cell phone while driving. But meanwhile in a Tesla you have to occasionally stare at a giant iPad to get anything done.
I have a car with a touchscreen and while I like some of what it can do, I dont want all controls on the touchscreen- only what is best for the screen such as the map, the camera views, etc. I prefer physical controls for most everything else.
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I want a "dumb" but well-built electric car... No side mirror lights, no motorized trunks, no suite of cabin sensors trying to figure out what I want, no air conditioned seats, and definitely no elaborate, janky, hilariously expensive infotainment system. Just put that engineering into the suspension and steering, please.
I want a tablet mount and good A/C. Maybe power windows and nice speakers. And I will take the 900lbs and $10k+ that shaves off, thank you.
“I’m ok with spending on defence, social security and education” while another wants spending only on unemployment, health care and policing. That’s the paradox where a supermajority supports cutting spending and “streamlining” government but there isn’t majority support for cutting any one thing.
So it is with cars. You want a “tablet mount and good AC. Maybe power windows and nice speakers”. Some other consumer will say “I can’t get around without GPS so a good maps app on a large screen is non negotiable but get rid of everything else.” And so on. To make a car that appeals to everyone, you have to put most features in. Kinda like an American Congress Omnibus Bill.
Why don't we have more specialized vehicles catering to small, passionate niches?
A modern Jeep or Land Rover looks just like a modern BMW or Audi SUV. The former brands were made by offering minimal rugged off-roaders, the latter by offering luxury vehicles. Now they've been blended into the same bland category.
What about beach buggies, or even the Yaris/Matrix/Fit class of light get-arounds? Gone.
What about the old nimble 6'-bed Ford Rangers, Chevy S-10s, Toyota Pickups? Gone, replaced with monstrous lifted 4'-bed wannabe minivans.
I understand why we can't have a meaningful choice between different types of government in the same area. But why must it be that way with consumer products?
I also worry that there may be a point where android auto updates stop completely and the feature goes away altogether due to incompatibility overall... Likely even before the car is 6 years old. These cars aren't made to last anymore... I that case, they should cost a lot less than previous generations, or there should be a solid buyback program in place.
I don't want chat GPT, it is pretty much guaranteed to be obsolete in 4 years.... Just install a hot swappable PC in the car instead perhaps.
I used to think that was a good idea. But now I have a car with both backup camera and sensors, and I find myself relying much more on the sensors than the camera. It helps that the implementation is intuitive -- slow beeps at 1 meter, then increasing frequency, then continuous beep, then automatic brake.
Some photos here: https://www.parkers.co.uk/volkswagen/e-up/review/interior/
I don't need to be entertained while I drive. I need to drive while I drive.
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Going from digital to analog control is more likely to add weight and cost, so you aren't going to save in that regard. Specifically going back from the infotainment system to an old fashioned analog control panel would likely add more cost and weight than it saves.
I just meant going with cheaper and lighter.
Without getting into the details, automotive acts like a start up with money and no idea what to actually build. Even worse, they have established leadership who in all their hubris thinks they can navigate development in bleeding edge technology they haven't the first idea on how to go about it.
A feature in the infotainment system was my responsibility. I was writing services to consume opt-in data and give user feedback. They pivoted the tech available to me for development six times in a six month span when my deadline was around eight months. I couldn't get anyone to understand that good software takes time. Apparently the automotive veterans around me said that, "this is just how it is" and my resignation followed shortly after. But all this jank shit and half baked design of what you get as a package deal in your vehicle is the result of an industry that is woefully behind in terms of a well operating "tech" company. Those features you claim to want to get rid of are the same features that allow them to claim they are "luxury" and to justify the cost of a vehicle that probably should have taken a fraction of the effort and cost to make with any sort of competency.
This is ultimately why Tesla is a crying shame and I wonder what it would have looked like without Elon's interference.
I asked: “You know how broken this feature is, right? Like if you even deviate from the simple announcement example in any way, you’ll probably be broken in a completely unknown way. We’re providing an ‘alternative’ that only implements a 1/10 of the scenarios but nonetheless exposes the same interface to users”
He said: “yeah, that’s fine. The most important thing is to deliver something for users to use. To even know if anyone wants this at all or if no one will use it”
I perplexedly asked: “but how would you know if people are not using it because they don’t want it, or if they are using it because they try and it’s hopelessly broken?”
He said: “We’ll fix it. If they are not using it because it rough or broken, then we’ll fix it. We will wait for feedback about what’s broken and fix the problem they run into. If people want to use something and they find issues, they’ll just report it.”
I said: “… do you do that? You try a feature in a new product or a tool or a feature, and when it doesn’t work at all, do you start file feedback items and work with that company to make sure their feature work? I know i don’t. I just move on until they fix it or find a competitor who has a better alternative”
He said: “no, most people will report problems and we can fix them as they come. Also we should tell from telemetry what people are trying and what’s not working and what we should fix vs not”
I said: “yeah, that makes sense.“, knowing that our telemetry is also generally broken because it’s implemented in the same way and generally we do the work when business folks come back asking for some data or complaining how the data we provide doesn’t add up.
Oh fun times.
https://youtu.be/PVlMxQaAf-k
You might not remember it but back in the heyday of those old trucks people were flipping and rolling them on the freeway all the time--there are conditions and speeds that they just plain are not safe to drive, and a lot of that comes from their inherent design which Icon can't fix.
If a manufacturer can save 900lbs they'll just put in a bigger battery instead. People are anxious about range, and manufacturers sell more long range cars.
And if they can knock $10k off the bill of materials they'll just make $10k more profit on the vehicle.
The choices that go into building a car are about driving mass market sales and increasing the bottom line. They aren't about catering to specific user needs.
The awful UIs and spam though... Yeah, make it dumber please.
I mean, I would want one of those, but just one I'm in complete control over. A lightly De-Googled Android would be just fine.
A family jaguar had an absolutely enormous computer unit that had to get replaced, all for... A absolutely horrible infotainment system that literally singlehandedly drags down the consumer reports rating
Pair your phone with BT and you'll never touch the infotainment again.
It's not cheap, but it's not overcomplicated in daily use if you ignore the infotainment.
Perhaps that is why. EVs kinda follow the "tyrrany of the rocket equation" because so much weight is their batteries (aka their rocket fuel). Taking a few pounds of features off also saves some battery that is no longer needed.
Mazda 3 is great, but it's ICE.
Additionally air intakes may not be more than 4 inches in height, steering wheels must be circular and at least 13 inches in diameter, and tires must not discharge materials towards the rear of the vehicle.
That covers most of it.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Chesterton%27s_fence
Which is it? Directly cooling/heating the body through the seat seems like the fastest and most efficient way.
EV cars are not quite there yet on price and economies of scale, so they have to have all the "luxury" frills to justify the $10-15k higher price tag vs the same ICE car.
Something closer to what you want will come eventually though. We're just still early in the EV market as a % of overall vehicles sold. Prices have already come down a lot and will continue to do so in the future.
Don't worry, modern manufacturers have this figured out, too.
But there are tradeoffs: do you want comfort, or performance? You can't have both.
I'm with your sentiment, but let's keep it real please.
You are way off
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Given that everyone else wants those bells and whistles, ironically you get more by paying less which means logically more bells and whistles is the better deal.
A logical person would in turn want the cars with "too much stuff". That is unless you're willing to pay more for less stuff.
I'd argue that almost nobody else wants all those bells and whistles, but most people want a couple of them. So you wind up with all of them, because people will walk away from a vehicle that doesn't have what they want more than walk away from a vehicle that has too many things they don't.
In my circle I don't know anyone wanting "infotainmant" - just a regular car to which I can connect my mobile hassle-free without dumb TV screen smack in the middle of the car...
Same goes for mobile phones - most of the people I know want to have regular sized phones (~5-5,5") but now... it's easier to smack ~7" screen to the roof-tile (that they call "phone") and sell at a premium...
The only thing I like about this change is that there seems to be far less high pressure sales going on.
It seems like we have more reliable engines, drive trains, and less reliable $2 chips that turns those things on.
Absolute garbage. Made me swear off domestic cars.
> we have more reliable engines
I think one of the best inventions to really come into use in the last 25 years is multi-layered steel (MLS) head gaskets. A lot of cars use to pop head gaskets regularly when they were made of compressed paper and other things. After the switch to MLS, even shitty Dodges could go the life of the car with a blown head gasket. Not blowing a head gasket means a lot less wear on every other part of the engine: no more oil in your coolant, coolant in your oil etc.
https://www.underhoodservice.com/the-evolution-of-mls-gasket...
That and stainless steel exhaust systems are underrated inventions. I remember seeing dropped mufflers on the side of the highway regularly when I was a kid. Then it just kind of... stopped. Didn't find the reason until many years later: the switch to stainless exhausts.
People who suffered through cars in the 70s and even 80s would be inclined to agree with him; unfortunately, it turns out that Bill Gates was wrong, and when cars are built the way programmers code, it takes us back to that lamentable state of affairs.
Ironically the private car that holds the world record for the most miles is the Volvo p1800 from the 60's. It wasn't American, but was an interesting feat non the less.
My dad has seen these go to 285k before the (original) transmission gave up (which retired the engine too). Over 300k was also reported. Of course, upkeep among mechanics is also likely of higher quality too.
Alas, AMC is no more and Chrysler ruined their engines out of jealousy (at least that's my dad's view on it).
Interestingly this was a collaboration with the European Ford team as far as I understand (although apparently the end result diverged quite a bit). Maybe they got some hot tips around build quality :)
Lots of people... don't.
As a broad and imprecise statement, American cars in the 80s rarely ran past 100k, while Japanese cars commonly did. I read a few stories of American cars reaching 200k, but I saw a lot of Toyotas sailing past 200k.
And considering how awfully I saw those Toyotas treated, I don't think it had anything to do with maintenance.
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For example, if I'm annoyed by having to use the touchscreen in a Tesla Model 3 to open the glove box, that counts as a problem even if it has nothing to do with the actual build quality. So in this case it makes sense that more tech = more things to get annoyed about, whether or not the tech is reliable.
Customer (dis)satisfaction can be a measure of the latter even if the products perfectly meets the former.
I don't care if it's broken or broken by design. It has the same effect on me.
Cmon, that’s not a defect. That’s being irritated because you didn’t spec out what you need.
I've been expecting my next car will be a Corolla when my Prius gives up the ghost, but I didn't know they'd reached quite that high with the ICE version.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/car-market-analysis-1.68737...
The only one that seems easy to get is the Outlander, but that car is also way too big for my needs among other issues.
We see it in TV, Car, Toaster, Lamps, Mower, Fridge, etc.
I think there is room for manufacturer of just dumb things.
Or how can consumers push? Well, they can't really. If all the options are smart what do you do? Forego the purchase? Or spend many hours shopping around?
In the future (or maybe it already is), most of our appliances and vehicles will be subscription-based just because companies can push it.
This makes me angry and sad. But evidence so far shows it to be completely true. Free markets are not properly sorting this out, because markets are not really free. Instead they are mostly oligopoly, and can thus control image and regulation and competition.
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For instance, you can adjust the color instead of the brightness as needed. You can set them to a different color at night - like red - or to match the content you're watching. You can have it turn off automatically when you leave home, and come back on when you return. You can tie it to sensors, like a door ajar sensor to automatically turn on when you open a closet and back off after.
I generally don't turn lights on or off, but do have RunLessWire passive switches to override.
It's great - we're finally getting to the point of ubiquitous computing where the devices around you meet your needs without you having to engage with them at all.
It's all incredibly reliable if you stick to Philips and Lutron.
Blasphemy!
Simple, mechanical cars (and trucks) don’t seem to exist anymore. It’s a shame.
Plus endless forum support if you do have a problem. Easy to work on. You can retire in that vehicle if you like.
If you get to 1,000,000 miles, they give you a free car.
New ones were made illegal during the Obama administration, and the Bush administration destroyed a bunch of the old ones with "Cash for Clunkers".
I have a 2014 mazda 3 manual hatch. I don't think I'll ever sell this car. ever.
The whole point of a touchscreen is to support software with dynamic controls - UIs that can change from situation to situation or app to app. I'm never in a situation where I don't need direct physical access to the volume knob or climate controls. I need to keep my eyes on the road. Subaru ended up adding back the buttons in the 2023 model.
Where I live, you'll get a hefty fine for looking at your cell phone while driving. But meanwhile in a Tesla you have to occasionally stare at a giant iPad to get anything done.
After the US Navy did their accident report on the US John McCain, they went back to physical controls from touchscreens.
https://news.usni.org/2019/08/09/navy-reverting-ddgs-back-to...
I have a car with a touchscreen and while I like some of what it can do, I dont want all controls on the touchscreen- only what is best for the screen such as the map, the camera views, etc. I prefer physical controls for most everything else.