This thread is super hackernews-y, people complaining about the performance of the PC that runs it compared to equally priced specs, some comments about source code and APIs, some comments about copying a open source product, a few about when AI can make music??
Doesn't really seem to be much talk about the actual product, I must say I haven't owned either, but it looks super cool! The video was very well done showcasing the product and in/out with the guitar. I am still not a 100% sure who the target market is, hobby musicians? Professional DJs?
I also wonder how easy it is to repeat an action, on a guitar a C major sounds like a C major on that same guitar. But you can't really remember did I move my finger 4 blocks and 3/4th of the other block of 5 blocks and a half?
I bought one. I'm a hobbyist that's been using Ableton in a hobbyist manner since 2005 or so.
As a software developer that works remotely, I have extremely limited desire to sit in front of my computer when work is over, and thus I end up using my music gear (which is unfortunately all crammed in my home office) much less than I'd like to. The appeal of a product like this is that I can take it into a different room and scratch the music production itch when I have it without feeling like I'm sitting at my work office all day.
Going analog after long stretches of being digital is a good forcing function to take breaks and get physical. Even just strumming and knob twisting is enough change-up to get different juices flowing.
This Push looks even more fun with controls beyond pads. And this is a page out of Framework — atypical in DAWs and music gear:
> You can add the standalone components later using the Upgrade Kit, and replace your processor, battery or hard drive to keep up with advances in technology.
I have the same workspace for work and making music. But I can totally understand the desire to make them separate.
For some reason, it just seems that I am forcing myself to make music. If I take a mini MIDI keyboard and make music somewhere else, it's much easier to do.
As a software developer myself, I prefer using an iPhone to create music rather than a laptop. With plugins it is possible to make stuff like this with Garageband for iPhone https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cqd9naFOh1I/
If you really want one of these things, and you use Ableton, get this one. I've used a Native Instruments Maschine and and Akai APC, and they just don't integrate that well with Ableton. But I've found I end up using a keyboard (Native Instruments Komplete) most of the time, even for drums, and that does integrate well.
I picked up an MPC X for a great deal some years ago but I find that using it feels like using a limited DAW instead of inspiring much creativity. As an engineer as well, I always have the urge to try to preserve and record my noodling with the ability to recreate it and perhaps change out synths, so the MPC works decently well as a midi and CV hub / router that can record, but I can’t say I’ve ever had tons of fun with it. That’s probably more on me for never finishing the MPC Bible ebooks.
On the other hand, the Linnstrument is fantastic for bringing out creative ideas, and it plays well with the many MPE instruments available for iPads. Add in an iConnectivity interface that can simultaneously hook up with a laptop to record everything including the resulting audio and that’s a powerful machine.
My only regret in modern music creation is now that I can afford all the fun toys and now that we have nearly limitless potential to create any sound we could never imagine, I don’t have nearly as much time as when I was a kid with an Alesis Ion and a pirated copy of Reason, so I end up creating a quarter of the music with 20x more gear :/
Ableton live enthusiast here. I went all in on ableton after finding a push 2 second hand for cheap enough that I was willing to switch from Logic Pro. That was in 2018 and haven’t looked back.
From my perspective I see this as a mixed bag. I don’t think i would want to use the push as a lap device while sitting on the couch. This looks to be about the same dimensions as the push 2.
It’s a squareish device that is about 14” or ~35cm wide and tall and about an inch and a half thick. I have and have had several other stand alone devices and they have to be much smaller than the push to tempt me away from my music pc desk.
That said maybe as a desktop device for traveling etc I could see it.
The other thing is that stand alone mode doesn’t allow both “views” in Ableton. One is the linear arrangement view (unavailable in standalone mode) and one is the session view that is more for clip launching and attaching musical phrases to a button on the push grid. This is the view that standalone mode allows. Here is the link to the manual for that
https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/session-view/
In my opinion this mode is great for remixing and spinning up new ideas but I typically use live as I would a hardware sampler back in the day. Layer up ideas in arrangement view record everything and then go back and chop. To me, that is what I would rather do on a couch than remix clips.
The hardware running live is adequate but I see why they may have limited the standalone functionality.
I run live on an iMac Pro with 32gb ram and the 8core Xeon standard cpu. Live 11 can really tax this machine especially with plugins in the mix. This is the other limitation that I understand but don’t really like. No external plugins. I’m not sure if max will be available but suspect that the built in efx and max live edition will be there(I haven’t watched all the videos yet)
@dubcanada - the push is super cool and can be assigned scales/modes so that the buttons play scales up and down the octave range. Or if it’s controlling a drum machine you get the familiar 16 pad interface x4
You can use it for step sequencing, playing chords with polyphonic expression (also in the push 2 but 3 looks to be improved) or just sit there and launch clips with 1 finger.
As I read what I have written I think I’m going to stick with my push 2 but if you use live and want a push the 3 is the one I would buy today, but probably the upgradable one that acts like push 2. Then I would see if I could upgrade it myself and not with the ableton kit. They hint that it will be.
The standalone Push 3 seems a great step forward. macOS has increasingly become user-hostile when it comes to audio (and other pro) users.
For instance I have an expensive sound card that became useless with after a minor OS upgrade. I never got to troubleshoot it or find an official solution.
That was incredibly discouraging - enough to move on to other hobbies. And I'm a programmer - don't want to imagine the pains that musicians have to go through.
Musician here, most of us (the ones that aren't also programmers) just have to pay up the arse every time for every thing.
I've been teaching myself keys the last few years and had been planning to one day get myself a big $6k stage keyboard, when I felt that I had sufficiently developed to warrant it.
I have since tried out Zynthian, and my conclusion was that with a pianoteq license and a good controller, I can have way more functionality and sounds and every thing for a small fraction of the price of that Nord.
Your comment is fascinating, because domination of music is one of the pillars of Mac's success. If they're not just neglecting that, but actively screwing with people... They've lost the plot. Like so many giant piles of capital masquerading as a company.
> domination of music is one of the pillars of Mac's success. If they're not just neglecting that, but actively screwing with people... They've lost the plot.
They’ve lost many plots.
Musicians, developers, and even photographers.
Apple’s playbook seems to have changed to:
- Hook a demographic with functionality that’s anywhere from just good enough to excellent
- Railroad them in to using as many first-part services as possible (especially if that means getting them to buy more Apple devices)
- Slowly lock them down so it’s harder and harder to move to competitors (aka boil the frog)
- Move staff from those first party products as the users are trapped and it’s no longer necessary for the quality to be excellent
FWIW, I recently replaced "Pianoteq license and a good controller" with a Nord. I've found that the friction involved in getting the laptop warm and Pianoteq started/running, while relatively low, is still enough that I didn't often just sit down and play. The Nord is a simple appliance and is always there inviting me to practice.
I still have the laptop and Pianoteq and use them with the Nord as a controller sometimes, when I want to work with digital music. But most of the time, the laptop stays shut, and I've found I am able to more deeply engage with the music that way.
Nords are for gigging artists that want every feature accessable via physical controls on the device with minimal setup. If you are willing to bring your laptop on stage there are probably better cheaper options. That being said used Electro's can be affordable and they are really fun devices to own. There is also a nice small community of people hacking on them. My current hobby project is reverse engineering the electro 5
I don't think this is true at all. Apple keeps releasing amazing new features for Logic Pro and they are free. They also just released Logic Pro for the iPad, and the new M2 iPad Pros are basically more powerful than Intel Macs at this use case.
Apple is clearly committed to their Pro users, but I can see why them dropping driver support for older hardware is frustrating. It's not that they are dropping driver support, it's just that the hardware manufacturers aren't updating drivers to support ARM Macs and not load as a low level kernel driver (insecure). I think your anger is a bit misplaced - maybe you should direct it towards the sound card manufacturer that refuses to update drivers for years?
> I have since tried out Zynthian, and my conclusion was that with a pianoteq license and a good controller, I can have way more functionality and sounds and every thing for a small fraction of the price of that Nord.
Yes, but also buy yourself a big old 90s ROMpler workstation for a couple of hundred quid, and keep it around for when you need something, I don't know, just *different*. Or if you need to do an impromptu gig and don't want to cart your super-expensive controller and super-delicate laptop to a pub.
Think of it as the musical equivalent of your gardening boots.
offtopic, but what keyboard controller do you recommend?
I have a cheap MIDI keyboard but the keyfeel is all wrong compared to the upright pianos I used to play as a kid. I'd like to get back into piano, and I know I struggled with phrasing/dynamics, and I worry that unweighted keys will teach me bad habits even though they're technically velocity sensitive...
My Pod Studio UX 2 interface works on a M1 Ventura but most of the Line 6 software that I used (Pod Farm with multiple sound packs) doesn't works any more. I've to but Pod Farm 2.5. The software for loading patches to my Pod XT Live doesn't work either.
It's an old Software that runs on... Windows 10...
I DJ for money though I wouldn’t say professionally. I have a separate 2015 MacBook Pro with all my software installed and it’s not connected to the internet except to transfer new songs and manual updates to it.
Really? Which soundcard? I’ve always understood the core audio stuff to be very hassle free. That sounds like a huge problem and I’m really surprised the manufacturer didn’t fix that immediately unless it’s very legacy hardware.
It takes time to fix this stuff. It always has. I don’t know why.
Core audio is the API. You still need a driver for the audio interface. If it’s USB class compliant, then you get a driver for free. Not all devices are class compliant (for good reasons). You would be limited to the feature set provided by the USB audio class spec.
The biggest issue with Mac is they manage to break device drivers every 12 months like clockwork. On the other hand, Logic Pro is an absolute steal at the price they charge, and it’s gotten some huge (and free) updates.
Same here. Tried to connect an old Midiman Midi interface to a recent MacOs. Oh boy. Someone built a driver and I´m grateful for that but it was quite something to get the thing working. It seemed to me a waste to buy a new piece of hardware for some antique technology like Midi, just because the driver of the old interface was not working any more. I don´t mind dealing with pain caused by computers in my day job. But in my free time as a musician all those technological hassles are a hindrance of creativity.
I’m not updating my music Macbook Pro anymore, I’m still on MacOS Catalina. VST’s break, (older) audio drivers stop working, etc. I spent too much time getting everything to work as it currently is.
I have a MacBook M1 Max that has been nothing but a pain in the ass when it comes to the core audio. Anytime I attempt to use soft synths that peg the CPU at about 40 to 50%, the speakers will start to occasionally crackle/pop completely disrupting my flow.
Apparently it's not a completely unheard of problem no pun intended. I've had to go back to my windows machine (bitwig and FL) + MOTU, and pretty much abandoned Mac music with logic pro completely. Really ticks me off.
I owned a Push 2 and sold it after a year. Never got into it because the pads weren't very good. Soft touches sometimes triggered notes at max velocity which drove me nuts.
The Push 3 has more sophisticated pads with MPE and I'm very skeptical Ableton could pull that off with good QA.
The other thing that I find ridiculous is they sell you a barebones computer for $1,000 with an i3, 8GB of RAM, and 256GB SSD. A computer which you cannot use for anything else and you're dependent on Ableton to fix/replace.
For that kind of money you could buy an M2 iPad Pro with more performance and a lot more battery time than 2.5 hours. An iPad can be bought and repaired on any country. If you're touring you can travel with a backup iPad or even buy one pretty much in any big city on Earth.
The computing-part hardware specs don't matter at all, the same way you don't compare the cpu specs of a phone or a synth to a laptop or tablet. This is about the interface, pads, firmware, comprehensiveness and convenience as a Live controller and as a standalone performance sequencer/drum machine/instrument.
The part that gets me is that it’s x86, and not even very recent x86. This CPU model was released for retail in Q3'20. It’s 10nm. I would have much preferred to see something like a 4nm Zen4 Ryzen or ideally, some combination of ASIC / ARM there.
The other annoying thing is that it doesn’t even include a Live standard license at this price, only Live Intro. That’s just being cheap on Ableton’s part.
The big benefit I see of this over something like a Linnstrument + iPad + iConnectivity AUDIO4c is portability and Live compatibility, but I’d personally wait and see how stable the software is before pulling the trigger. Relying on a brand new software stack on x86 to do the exact right things in perfect time for live music is a bet I wouldn’t take. I hope it’s amazing, and I’m sure lots of folks worked very hard on this, but the proof will be in the pudding. There’s a reason that you don’t see Pioneer and Denon decks / mixers or really any other live audio gear rocking x86.
I think this take is also a bit shallow, given the maker touts the specs as a selling point.
Arguing about the specs for the price shouldn't be shunned upon in these circumstances.
From the marketing piece:
> Intel 11th Gen Core™ i3-1115G4 processor with 8GB of RAM
Built-in lithium battery with up to 2.5 hours play time
Built-in 256GB SSD hard drive
Replace processor, battery and hard drive as technology improves
Point is not the hardware specs. The point is that the iPad Pro makes an excellent portable musical workstation on the go as well (GarageBand comes with it, and Logic Pro has been ported over). So if you had to choose one this becomes a relevant comparison point.
> For that kind of money you could buy an M2 iPad Pro
Swap real pads and knobs for a touch screen? No thanks, even if they would give it to me for free. Not judging Ableton stuff prices, and I'm also not into this kind of devices (aside my Korg Padkontrol) because as a prog rock wannabe musician I would probably have little use for them, but when using electronic instruments, nothing comes close to real things you can manipulate, read state, and get tactile feedback from. Touch screens can look indeed cool, but they're way behind real controls when it comes to input capabilities.
This is...completely missing the point. It honestly blows my mind how often exemplars of the Dunning-Kruger effect make it to the top on HN. You know that feeling you get as a programmer watching, like, two people code on the same keyboard on CSI or whatever? That's the feeling anyone with expertise in a domain other than programming gets when reading comments on HN regarding said domain.
The most fundamental appeal of the Push is that it is a very nicely-integrated hardware controller, and -- this is the big thing -- has physical knobs, buttons, pads, etc, a massive selling point to loads and loads and loads of musicians.
An iPad by definition lacks the latter, and will never approach the integration of the Push no matter how much work you put into whichever controller app you're using (TouchOSC, etc). And that's even before you consider the fact that the Push also doubles as an audio interface.
Literally no one in the Push's audience is looking to replace/upgrade the Push's hardware. No one cares what CPU it has. I'm honestly surprised that Ableton published the specs, because it just doesn't matter. It's not a "computer" (even though, yes, technically it is indeed a computer). Depending on which model you buy, its raison d'etre is as an accessory to a computer, more specifically a very specific application; or an appliance designed to run one app and one app only. You might as well be saying that you'd rather buy an iPad over a Tesla because the iPad has a better CPU.
Been making electronic music for well over a decade, but always in the classic DAW arrangement view, at most using MIDI keyboards in terms of haptic input devices but relying on mouse and keyboard 95% of the time. I look at devices like Push or Maschine and my immediate thought is how tedious it seems to get anything done with them. I find the different approaches to manifesting musical ideas endlessly fascinating.
As someone in a similar position as yourself, but who been using hardware instead of software like DAWs, I find myself having a similar feeling to people who use keyboard/mouse to make music like that, seems really tedious compared to the workflow I have outside of the computer.
But most importantly, I agree with your very last sentence, we're all different and what's optimal differs a lot from person to person.
Coming up with a riff/melody is much faster on an actual instrument (if you know how to use it). Turning that melody into a piece of good music is much faster in a DAW (if you know how to use it). If you lack skill in DAW usage or you're not making "finished" music, being instrument only is a legit approach, but learning and integrating a DAW would help you make better music.
What I do to get over this - as soon as I have an 8+ bar loop i like i paste it into Arrangement view so it fills up a 5 minute song, and then I start taking parts out. Gives me a basic “song” to start fleshing out.
Funny enough I always found the opposite, I find Renoise great for making short loops but putting them together into a full track to be a pain, and then visa-versa with Ableton and software like it.
The OP-1 is where I've found this to be especially the case, incredibly easy to make a loop on but never managed to make a full song on it, aside from using mutes/effects on a single loop to stretch it out into a full track
A heavy Push 2 user here. Completely redefined my music creation workflow in Ableton. For me, it's a genuinely enjoyable way of turning ideas into music and has made the process incredibly more 'open' for me.
When I'm doing sample-based sequencing I find the Push 2 nearly perfect, but when I'm composing with midi I find it nearly intolerable. It kind of has a "What kind of EDM would you like to make today?" view of the world. But in the workflows it's designed for the Push series is brilliant.
It's a 'barrier to entry' thing. To get the kind of skills that you need for good keyboard work is a lifetime of dedication, but once you've got it it is very quick and easy compared to something like the Ableton Push and other such devices.
But that initial barrier is such that a beginner will be able to get much more mileage out of such a device. They might never even run into the limitations though it may limit the musical space that they can work in on some dimensions.
In the end what matters is the result, not so much how it was reached.
I think it is also a huge issue that there is no methodology or virtuoso pieces to aim at in order to spend hours a day practicing on the Push.
I grew up playing classical guitar and use to own a Ztar and this was the issue I had with it. My guitar chops transferred to it pretty nicely but it is still its own instrument. Own instrument with no music or practice material, no transcriptions of anything other than what you come up with yourself.
How far would anyone get learning piano if they had to also come up with the music and practice material outside of drilling scales concurrently with learning the instrument itself? It would just be a nearly useless gimmicky instrument.
I'm just an amateur of a similar amount of time, but I think it comes down to what inspires someone to create whether it's a physical interface or a graphical one. A little inspiration can overcome a lot of inefficiency. I prefer a tracker, but still want something like a DAW.
Sunvox is pretty great for quickly roughing out an idea. I use my MIDI keyboard for building patterns. I'll record the notes for a pattern and then play it back in a loop to adjust the rest of the parameters. I use the other mapped controls live until I have what I want. I prefer having tons of physical controls ready to go for this part. I have a few project files I always start from and their corresponding templates are saved into the keyboard. Then I go into audacity and record my guitar, voice, or whatever else to a click and import them into the timeline. I think it's more important to have your workflow down than be distracted by new shiny toys.
Hm after formal education from producers and audio engineers for some EDM artists I respect, I think the Push 2 is the best re-build of music sequencing since the 1600s, comparing it directly to invention of sheet music and an improvement over that, with the addition of being able to input and execute the sounds in a very efficient way. But with its own learning curve.
But one of the main things that saves time is how loud or soft each note is. Doing this in a DAW is far more tedious, neglected completely for just repetitive electronic music, or requires scripting to provide random-ish entropy to each note. Whereas with a Push its based on how hard you press.
To add some objectivity to this, I would say its more about the learning curve, I couldn't expect someone to pick up a Push and get anywhere fast with it.
But I think people familiar with a keyboard and mouse would benefit from a Push and accelerate their work.
I prefer to be DAWless when I am in "discovery mode" or just want to jam around like with a regular instrument. However when I am ready to assembly everything into a song I prefer to use a DAW.
Agreed. I have a few similar boards here at home and rarely use them. They're a pain to set up, you spend more time configuring channels and whatnot, and half the time, the DAW has problems even seeing them given the abysmal state of MIDI driver management on e.g. Windows.
I don't love working with them all the time (I use the original MPC Live for, well, live shows), but you can create whatever you want on a computer, in a DAW / whatever and then work on it separately when you want to be untethered from your computer.
Personally, I don't really like the Push platform, having previously owned a Push 2.
I can understand the value of it if you're performing live, however the hard reality is that it's a really inefficient way to create electronic music. The mouse and keyboard are simply a lot faster to use.
With that said, maybe that's for you. But if you're trying to make advanced productions as quickly as possible, then I really see no value in the Push. You could of course use it as a MIDI controller, but it's a damn expensive one if your sole purpose is to use it as a MIDI controller.
A keyboard and a mouse might be faster in some instances, but they are also far less musically expressive. When it comes to putting emotion into music, I think it is a lot easier to do so with an expressive, physically embodied musical instrument.
In terms of speed, I'm also not sure how quickly you can create articulations like vibrato and slides with a mouse and keyboard, but that seems like it would be fairly tedious to do manually? Wouldn't that require a lot of envelope tweaking?
Speaking personally, playing on a pad controller uses a different part of my brain and body than using a keyboard and a mouse. When I create stuff with a keyboard and mouse, I am in "design mode", where I am thinking in a deliberate way, similar to programming. When I create stuff on a pad controller, I am in "express mode", where I am not really thinking at all.
When it comes to putting emotion into music, I think it is a lot easier to do so with an expressive, physically embodied musical instrument.
This is exactly my experience. I started with mouse/keyboard only fiddling with electronic music (no music background whatsoever) and the day I bought a basic MIDI controller I ended up playing it until it was time to go to work the next morning.. It was such an overwhelming experience, not just the keys themselves but also the buttons and the trackpad. Finally I could just do all these tiny variations which make groove on the spot, immediately, in infinite variations, instead of going back and forth dragging things with a mouse in only one dimension.
I disagree with this sentiment, but I also think it comes down to how you approach music.
For me at least, music originates from my imagination. It starts in my head, not from playing an instrument, so to speak. I say this as a composer, not as a musician.
Sure, if you really mastered an instrument i.e. Push 3, then you could use it as a form of expression. But when you're composing, often you're trying to tame many different instruments and ideas at once, so I find it much easier to do it all in my head first, and then think of the quickest way to translate it all into the computer, and for me that's the mouse and keyboard.
I'm also primarily a song writer/producer, so for me I think in terms of composition after the fact i.e. once the lyrics have been written. But yeah, I certainly do appreciate those who can utilise platforms like the Push 3. However I would still argue that even if it is what works for you, it's still ultimately slower. Again, nothing wrong with that if it works for you.
> I think it is a lot easier to do so with an expressive, physically embodied musical instrument.
Completely agree. I currently run 5 MIDI controllers with Ableton: 3 Launchpads (one for launching clips, and the other two for controlling step sequencers), a Launch Control for knobs, and a basic 61-key MIDI keyboard.
I used to do it all with a mouse, but when I added that first Launchpad for punching in sequences by hand, I felt so much more creative.
Clearly, I still use the mouse for lots of things. And, doing everything by way of a controller (like the Push) is not really desirable to me. But creating patterns, playing chords/melodies on the keys, and tweaking synth params with hardware pots by hand just feels better. Like you, I don't have to think about what I'm doing. I just do it. Clicking in notes on piano roll really can't compete. imo.
> Speaking personally, playing on a pad controller uses a different part of my brain and body than using a keyboard and a mouse. When I create stuff with a keyboard and mouse, I am in "design mode", where I am thinking in a deliberate way, similar to programming. When I create stuff on a pad controller, I am in "express mode", where I am not really thinking at all.
This is the most important thing you said IMO. Maybe keyboard shortcuts and ninja mouse skills can get you into a flow state, "improvisation" mode, but chances are your composer brain will be in the lead.
That's not the point of the parent comment. For the expressive feel of a "real instrument", just a MIDI controller would do. The Push's are a lot more than just a MIDI controller, though. As a Push 2 owner, I use the other features way too little for them to be worth it to me, and I wouldn't buy it again. As a MIDI controller, it's my go-to. Mostly because I don't have much else than that and some old synths.
Most instruments have parameters for things like vibrato that you can set quickly by "drawing" them with a mouse under the note in reaper (and probably other daws). Slide isn't really a normal thing with midi, you'd need the instrument plugin to explicitly support it using some sort of parameter, but if one was present it'd be easy to set via the mouse.
If you aren’t great at piano then using a push in note scale mode is fantastic. Another benefit is when recording automation you can turn the knobs to add a human element over something like point and clicking points. It’s an excellent tool for creating music, not just for live.
> The mouse and keyboard are simply a lot faster to use.
It's really up to personal preference and what you are most trained with. I'm sure I could make a full song faster than at least 50% of Ableton users on a Analog Rytm and/or the Octatrack, as I could probably do that workflow in my sleep. But I'm also use that 99% of Ableton users could use Ableton faster than me to create full songs, simply because I'm much more used to using hardware than software.
Just like some people are better with console controllers than keyboard/mouse, even when playing FPS games, it's just a matter of practice (although FPS example has a skill-ceiling I don't think exists in music creation, so slightly shitty example)
This is a reason ableton live is called ... live. It is made to create music with the idea to play it live. The Push is the actual controller for the live performance.
The Push 1 looked like a prototype. The Push 2 is such a massive improvement. It’s visually and functionally perfect. It was hard to find fault in its design and workflow (if you are a Live aficionado of course). If you don’t like the uniqueness of Live, you can’t like the Push. (But you can still like Live without liking the Push).
Obviously, a lot (if not all) of the Push UX is only possible and satisfying because of how closely it integrates with Live.
I didn’t think a Push 3 would come so soon, because I couldn’t see how the hardware or design could be improved. I was wrong. It seems the design has been slightly improved. But I never thought Ableton would release a stand-alone version of the Push. It’s a hefty price tag, it doesn’t support third party plugins, and its portability is limited. But I can’t shake off the idea that Ableton just released the ultimate musical device for someone like me.
Honestly for live stuff, you don’t want plugins generating in real-time anyway. You want tight recordings / loops, samples at most, or a couple of external synths. There are so dang many compact “desktop” synths that are massively powerful these days that it’s hard to recommend any above the others, but I do really love the PreenFM 2 and 3, and the developer is amazing. It’s basically the pinnacle of open source FM synthesis if you’re ever interested in that.
From the Ondes Martenot [1] to the Haken Continuum fingerboard [2], this type of wiggling finger motion for vibrato is so intuitive, I wish more discrete controllers proposed it as a per-note pitch bend (which MPE makes possible, but can also be achieved with RPN/NRPNs in MIDI 1.x).
I had the privilege of playing with the Push 3 a few weeks ago. If you owned a Push before, it’s exactly what you think it is: basically the Push you always wanted. The fact that it’s a standalone device now is brilliant. So is the built-in battery. Just super, super convenient.
Controls are mostly self-explanatory. It has a fantastic tutorial when you first use it; overall a really polished experience. The MPI on the pads is very impressive, although I didn’t spend enough time to see how useful I personally will find it. The build quality is awesome though. That large wheel on the top right has the slickest horizontal shift movement I’ve ever experienced on a knob.
What do you think about the materials of the device? The Push 3 looks amazingly interesting to me but the 2 has a lot of comments about plastics not ageing well. It's not a device one would want to replacer anytime soon, so I'm really wondering if it will last basically.
The one I played was flawless, but that ofc is a sample size of 1.
My Push 2 also has one rotary knob that doesn’t rotate as well and it always annoyed the hell out of me. The plastics did age well on my Push 2 though.
I'm sceptical. I own a Push 2 and the build quality is not terrible, but not awesome either. For example, every knob has a different resistance (how hard it is to turn) and sensitivity (how much you have to turn to change a parameter).
Readit News
Doesn't really seem to be much talk about the actual product, I must say I haven't owned either, but it looks super cool! The video was very well done showcasing the product and in/out with the guitar. I am still not a 100% sure who the target market is, hobby musicians? Professional DJs?
I also wonder how easy it is to repeat an action, on a guitar a C major sounds like a C major on that same guitar. But you can't really remember did I move my finger 4 blocks and 3/4th of the other block of 5 blocks and a half?
As a software developer that works remotely, I have extremely limited desire to sit in front of my computer when work is over, and thus I end up using my music gear (which is unfortunately all crammed in my home office) much less than I'd like to. The appeal of a product like this is that I can take it into a different room and scratch the music production itch when I have it without feeling like I'm sitting at my work office all day.
This Push looks even more fun with controls beyond pads. And this is a page out of Framework — atypical in DAWs and music gear:
> You can add the standalone components later using the Upgrade Kit, and replace your processor, battery or hard drive to keep up with advances in technology.
Same here, I like to think of it as my studio, a place where I do creative things. Same crammed room but it sounds a lot more romantic.
For some reason, it just seems that I am forcing myself to make music. If I take a mini MIDI keyboard and make music somewhere else, it's much easier to do.
On the other hand, the Linnstrument is fantastic for bringing out creative ideas, and it plays well with the many MPE instruments available for iPads. Add in an iConnectivity interface that can simultaneously hook up with a laptop to record everything including the resulting audio and that’s a powerful machine.
My only regret in modern music creation is now that I can afford all the fun toys and now that we have nearly limitless potential to create any sound we could never imagine, I don’t have nearly as much time as when I was a kid with an Alesis Ion and a pirated copy of Reason, so I end up creating a quarter of the music with 20x more gear :/
From my perspective I see this as a mixed bag. I don’t think i would want to use the push as a lap device while sitting on the couch. This looks to be about the same dimensions as the push 2. It’s a squareish device that is about 14” or ~35cm wide and tall and about an inch and a half thick. I have and have had several other stand alone devices and they have to be much smaller than the push to tempt me away from my music pc desk.
That said maybe as a desktop device for traveling etc I could see it.
The other thing is that stand alone mode doesn’t allow both “views” in Ableton. One is the linear arrangement view (unavailable in standalone mode) and one is the session view that is more for clip launching and attaching musical phrases to a button on the push grid. This is the view that standalone mode allows. Here is the link to the manual for that https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/session-view/
In my opinion this mode is great for remixing and spinning up new ideas but I typically use live as I would a hardware sampler back in the day. Layer up ideas in arrangement view record everything and then go back and chop. To me, that is what I would rather do on a couch than remix clips.
The hardware running live is adequate but I see why they may have limited the standalone functionality. I run live on an iMac Pro with 32gb ram and the 8core Xeon standard cpu. Live 11 can really tax this machine especially with plugins in the mix. This is the other limitation that I understand but don’t really like. No external plugins. I’m not sure if max will be available but suspect that the built in efx and max live edition will be there(I haven’t watched all the videos yet)
@dubcanada - the push is super cool and can be assigned scales/modes so that the buttons play scales up and down the octave range. Or if it’s controlling a drum machine you get the familiar 16 pad interface x4 You can use it for step sequencing, playing chords with polyphonic expression (also in the push 2 but 3 looks to be improved) or just sit there and launch clips with 1 finger.
As I read what I have written I think I’m going to stick with my push 2 but if you use live and want a push the 3 is the one I would buy today, but probably the upgradable one that acts like push 2. Then I would see if I could upgrade it myself and not with the ableton kit. They hint that it will be.
The standalone Push 3 seems a great step forward. macOS has increasingly become user-hostile when it comes to audio (and other pro) users.
For instance I have an expensive sound card that became useless with after a minor OS upgrade. I never got to troubleshoot it or find an official solution.
That was incredibly discouraging - enough to move on to other hobbies. And I'm a programmer - don't want to imagine the pains that musicians have to go through.
I've been teaching myself keys the last few years and had been planning to one day get myself a big $6k stage keyboard, when I felt that I had sufficiently developed to warrant it.
I have since tried out Zynthian, and my conclusion was that with a pianoteq license and a good controller, I can have way more functionality and sounds and every thing for a small fraction of the price of that Nord.
Your comment is fascinating, because domination of music is one of the pillars of Mac's success. If they're not just neglecting that, but actively screwing with people... They've lost the plot. Like so many giant piles of capital masquerading as a company.
They’ve lost many plots.
Musicians, developers, and even photographers.
Apple’s playbook seems to have changed to:
- Hook a demographic with functionality that’s anywhere from just good enough to excellent
- Railroad them in to using as many first-part services as possible (especially if that means getting them to buy more Apple devices)
- Slowly lock them down so it’s harder and harder to move to competitors (aka boil the frog)
- Move staff from those first party products as the users are trapped and it’s no longer necessary for the quality to be excellent
I still have the laptop and Pianoteq and use them with the Nord as a controller sometimes, when I want to work with digital music. But most of the time, the laptop stays shut, and I've found I am able to more deeply engage with the music that way.
OSX occasionally warns me about third party kernel extensions, and that's not an encouraging direction of travel.
I bought my audio interface precisely because RME have a reputation for writing reliable and performant drivers.
Apple is clearly committed to their Pro users, but I can see why them dropping driver support for older hardware is frustrating. It's not that they are dropping driver support, it's just that the hardware manufacturers aren't updating drivers to support ARM Macs and not load as a low level kernel driver (insecure). I think your anger is a bit misplaced - maybe you should direct it towards the sound card manufacturer that refuses to update drivers for years?
Yes, but also buy yourself a big old 90s ROMpler workstation for a couple of hundred quid, and keep it around for when you need something, I don't know, just *different*. Or if you need to do an impromptu gig and don't want to cart your super-expensive controller and super-delicate laptop to a pub.
Think of it as the musical equivalent of your gardening boots.
I have a cheap MIDI keyboard but the keyfeel is all wrong compared to the upright pianos I used to play as a kid. I'd like to get back into piano, and I know I struggled with phrasing/dynamics, and I worry that unweighted keys will teach me bad habits even though they're technically velocity sensitive...
It's an old Software that runs on... Windows 10...
Anyone doing it professionally will check all of their plugins/hardware has support for the latest macOS version before updating.
I’m a professional programmer it’s not like I test if my mouse or keyboard will work with a new windows update.
Deleted Comment
Core audio is the API. You still need a driver for the audio interface. If it’s USB class compliant, then you get a driver for free. Not all devices are class compliant (for good reasons). You would be limited to the feature set provided by the USB audio class spec.
Like?
Apparently it's not a completely unheard of problem no pun intended. I've had to go back to my windows machine (bitwig and FL) + MOTU, and pretty much abandoned Mac music with logic pro completely. Really ticks me off.
The Push 3 has more sophisticated pads with MPE and I'm very skeptical Ableton could pull that off with good QA.
The other thing that I find ridiculous is they sell you a barebones computer for $1,000 with an i3, 8GB of RAM, and 256GB SSD. A computer which you cannot use for anything else and you're dependent on Ableton to fix/replace.
For that kind of money you could buy an M2 iPad Pro with more performance and a lot more battery time than 2.5 hours. An iPad can be bought and repaired on any country. If you're touring you can travel with a backup iPad or even buy one pretty much in any big city on Earth.
This has a strong https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9224 vibe to it.
The computing-part hardware specs don't matter at all, the same way you don't compare the cpu specs of a phone or a synth to a laptop or tablet. This is about the interface, pads, firmware, comprehensiveness and convenience as a Live controller and as a standalone performance sequencer/drum machine/instrument.
The other annoying thing is that it doesn’t even include a Live standard license at this price, only Live Intro. That’s just being cheap on Ableton’s part.
The big benefit I see of this over something like a Linnstrument + iPad + iConnectivity AUDIO4c is portability and Live compatibility, but I’d personally wait and see how stable the software is before pulling the trigger. Relying on a brand new software stack on x86 to do the exact right things in perfect time for live music is a bet I wouldn’t take. I hope it’s amazing, and I’m sure lots of folks worked very hard on this, but the proof will be in the pudding. There’s a reason that you don’t see Pioneer and Denon decks / mixers or really any other live audio gear rocking x86.
Except when you're trying to run dozens of VST plugins which are extremely CPU hungry.
From the marketing piece:
> Intel 11th Gen Core™ i3-1115G4 processor with 8GB of RAM Built-in lithium battery with up to 2.5 hours play time Built-in 256GB SSD hard drive Replace processor, battery and hard drive as technology improves
If I can trivially make a better version of the thing you are selling at 1/3rd the price, then something isn't right.
Swap real pads and knobs for a touch screen? No thanks, even if they would give it to me for free. Not judging Ableton stuff prices, and I'm also not into this kind of devices (aside my Korg Padkontrol) because as a prog rock wannabe musician I would probably have little use for them, but when using electronic instruments, nothing comes close to real things you can manipulate, read state, and get tactile feedback from. Touch screens can look indeed cool, but they're way behind real controls when it comes to input capabilities.
The most fundamental appeal of the Push is that it is a very nicely-integrated hardware controller, and -- this is the big thing -- has physical knobs, buttons, pads, etc, a massive selling point to loads and loads and loads of musicians.
An iPad by definition lacks the latter, and will never approach the integration of the Push no matter how much work you put into whichever controller app you're using (TouchOSC, etc). And that's even before you consider the fact that the Push also doubles as an audio interface.
Literally no one in the Push's audience is looking to replace/upgrade the Push's hardware. No one cares what CPU it has. I'm honestly surprised that Ableton published the specs, because it just doesn't matter. It's not a "computer" (even though, yes, technically it is indeed a computer). Depending on which model you buy, its raison d'etre is as an accessory to a computer, more specifically a very specific application; or an appliance designed to run one app and one app only. You might as well be saying that you'd rather buy an iPad over a Tesla because the iPad has a better CPU.
> No one cares what CPU it has
Good luck running a dozen instances of Diva if you don't care about the CPU :)
> Literally no one in the Push's audience is looking to replace/upgrade the Push's hardware.
Ableton:
> Replace processor, battery and hard drive as technology improves
And why do people want to throw around the Dunning-Kruger effect in so many discussions. Does it help your point ?
After all, they are probably running some Linux distro in the Push 3 so they had to invest in that anyway.
But most importantly, I agree with your very last sentence, we're all different and what's optimal differs a lot from person to person.
I have folders full of sketches I've built up in years of using it but very few things I'd call finished.
The OP-1 is where I've found this to be especially the case, incredibly easy to make a loop on but never managed to make a full song on it, aside from using mutes/effects on a single loop to stretch it out into a full track
But that initial barrier is such that a beginner will be able to get much more mileage out of such a device. They might never even run into the limitations though it may limit the musical space that they can work in on some dimensions.
In the end what matters is the result, not so much how it was reached.
I grew up playing classical guitar and use to own a Ztar and this was the issue I had with it. My guitar chops transferred to it pretty nicely but it is still its own instrument. Own instrument with no music or practice material, no transcriptions of anything other than what you come up with yourself.
How far would anyone get learning piano if they had to also come up with the music and practice material outside of drilling scales concurrently with learning the instrument itself? It would just be a nearly useless gimmicky instrument.
Sunvox is pretty great for quickly roughing out an idea. I use my MIDI keyboard for building patterns. I'll record the notes for a pattern and then play it back in a loop to adjust the rest of the parameters. I use the other mapped controls live until I have what I want. I prefer having tons of physical controls ready to go for this part. I have a few project files I always start from and their corresponding templates are saved into the keyboard. Then I go into audacity and record my guitar, voice, or whatever else to a click and import them into the timeline. I think it's more important to have your workflow down than be distracted by new shiny toys.
But one of the main things that saves time is how loud or soft each note is. Doing this in a DAW is far more tedious, neglected completely for just repetitive electronic music, or requires scripting to provide random-ish entropy to each note. Whereas with a Push its based on how hard you press.
To add some objectivity to this, I would say its more about the learning curve, I couldn't expect someone to pick up a Push and get anywhere fast with it.
But I think people familiar with a keyboard and mouse would benefit from a Push and accelerate their work.
I prefer to be DAWless when I am in "discovery mode" or just want to jam around like with a regular instrument. However when I am ready to assembly everything into a song I prefer to use a DAW.
I can understand the value of it if you're performing live, however the hard reality is that it's a really inefficient way to create electronic music. The mouse and keyboard are simply a lot faster to use.
With that said, maybe that's for you. But if you're trying to make advanced productions as quickly as possible, then I really see no value in the Push. You could of course use it as a MIDI controller, but it's a damn expensive one if your sole purpose is to use it as a MIDI controller.
In terms of speed, I'm also not sure how quickly you can create articulations like vibrato and slides with a mouse and keyboard, but that seems like it would be fairly tedious to do manually? Wouldn't that require a lot of envelope tweaking?
Speaking personally, playing on a pad controller uses a different part of my brain and body than using a keyboard and a mouse. When I create stuff with a keyboard and mouse, I am in "design mode", where I am thinking in a deliberate way, similar to programming. When I create stuff on a pad controller, I am in "express mode", where I am not really thinking at all.
This is exactly my experience. I started with mouse/keyboard only fiddling with electronic music (no music background whatsoever) and the day I bought a basic MIDI controller I ended up playing it until it was time to go to work the next morning.. It was such an overwhelming experience, not just the keys themselves but also the buttons and the trackpad. Finally I could just do all these tiny variations which make groove on the spot, immediately, in infinite variations, instead of going back and forth dragging things with a mouse in only one dimension.
For me at least, music originates from my imagination. It starts in my head, not from playing an instrument, so to speak. I say this as a composer, not as a musician.
Sure, if you really mastered an instrument i.e. Push 3, then you could use it as a form of expression. But when you're composing, often you're trying to tame many different instruments and ideas at once, so I find it much easier to do it all in my head first, and then think of the quickest way to translate it all into the computer, and for me that's the mouse and keyboard.
I'm also primarily a song writer/producer, so for me I think in terms of composition after the fact i.e. once the lyrics have been written. But yeah, I certainly do appreciate those who can utilise platforms like the Push 3. However I would still argue that even if it is what works for you, it's still ultimately slower. Again, nothing wrong with that if it works for you.
Completely agree. I currently run 5 MIDI controllers with Ableton: 3 Launchpads (one for launching clips, and the other two for controlling step sequencers), a Launch Control for knobs, and a basic 61-key MIDI keyboard.
I used to do it all with a mouse, but when I added that first Launchpad for punching in sequences by hand, I felt so much more creative.
Clearly, I still use the mouse for lots of things. And, doing everything by way of a controller (like the Push) is not really desirable to me. But creating patterns, playing chords/melodies on the keys, and tweaking synth params with hardware pots by hand just feels better. Like you, I don't have to think about what I'm doing. I just do it. Clicking in notes on piano roll really can't compete. imo.
This is the most important thing you said IMO. Maybe keyboard shortcuts and ninja mouse skills can get you into a flow state, "improvisation" mode, but chances are your composer brain will be in the lead.
It's really up to personal preference and what you are most trained with. I'm sure I could make a full song faster than at least 50% of Ableton users on a Analog Rytm and/or the Octatrack, as I could probably do that workflow in my sleep. But I'm also use that 99% of Ableton users could use Ableton faster than me to create full songs, simply because I'm much more used to using hardware than software.
Just like some people are better with console controllers than keyboard/mouse, even when playing FPS games, it's just a matter of practice (although FPS example has a skill-ceiling I don't think exists in music creation, so slightly shitty example)
Obviously, a lot (if not all) of the Push UX is only possible and satisfying because of how closely it integrates with Live.
I didn’t think a Push 3 would come so soon, because I couldn’t see how the hardware or design could be improved. I was wrong. It seems the design has been slightly improved. But I never thought Ableton would release a stand-alone version of the Push. It’s a hefty price tag, it doesn’t support third party plugins, and its portability is limited. But I can’t shake off the idea that Ableton just released the ultimate musical device for someone like me.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlzPHeN1VLQ
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mrmp2EaVChI
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fQbtp2BgY4
Controls are mostly self-explanatory. It has a fantastic tutorial when you first use it; overall a really polished experience. The MPI on the pads is very impressive, although I didn’t spend enough time to see how useful I personally will find it. The build quality is awesome though. That large wheel on the top right has the slickest horizontal shift movement I’ve ever experienced on a knob.
It’s just slick. And yes, I just ordered one :D.
My Push 2 also has one rotary knob that doesn’t rotate as well and it always annoyed the hell out of me. The plastics did age well on my Push 2 though.
Deleted Comment