A shout out to J Burton Berlin, who designed the stab trim system on the 747. He mentored me a lot on the 757 system. He showed me his design notebook on the 747 design, quite a treasure. All done in pencil with a slide rule. An engineer's engineer. He had many entertaining stories about the B-47 design.
Hi Walter! You have (evidently) a tonne of experience in the aviation industry. Is there anything you noticed the 'engineer's engineers' had in common? What made them such great engineers.
I was looking to a career in Aerospace Engineering - but it's an interest. I'm still in college, but I'm not sure if it's what I want to do. Regardless - what do you think makes an engineer an engineer's engineer?
It's simple - they loved engineering. It was not just a job. It oozed from their core. They'd have done it for free. I've known many engineers who were in it for the money. While they could get the job done, their heart wasn't in it, and it showed. I'm sure you can pick them out in your organization.
Burt, who was in his 60s, was always excited to show me some new way of doing things, showing off his notebook, showing me his (then useless) slide rule, etc. He was also an endless source of engineering tales which he'd tell with relish. So was Erv, though Erv didn't work on the 747.
And they were happy to tell this stuff to me, because it was exactly what I wanted to be doing.
On the software side, I haven't met John Carmack, but I suspect that working with him would be a similar experience. Woz too, obviously.
Not really. I suppose I should write it down, but it was a loooong time ago.
It was always a treat to hang around with Burt. The other engineer there who mentored me was Erwin Schweitzer, who'd take me flying with him (he was a pilot) and let me fly it once in a while. Burt and Erv were why I stayed at Boeing as long as I did.
Another engineer who took me flying was Ernie Spriggs. He hailed from Lockheed, and always went on about how great Lockheed was. I finally asked him "Ernie, if Lockheed was so great, why are you working at Boeing?" Ernie replied "because one day I told Mr. Lockheed he was a fucking asshole."
Good times.
P.S. What you suspect is true. A lot of Boeing engineers were also pilots. They loved airplanes and flying and engineering.
One afternoon in early fall of 2005 or 2006, I had a couple of hours to kill -- it might have been been before an evening flight out of SeaTac. I drifted down towards the water nearby, to come across Saltwater State Park. After checking out the shoreline, on the way back to my car I passed by an old fellow parked in an older red pickup facing the water. He had his window rolled down, and instead of just saying "howdy", I asked him whether he had a good local place he could recommend for seafood.
That turned into a half or maybe hour long conversation. Turns out he was an engineer with Boeing and was involved with stuff and knew the big shots circa WWII and/or a bit thereafter. This was early 2000's and he looked like he could be well into his 80's or even a well preserved 90-ish, so I had no trouble believing him. Plus, the details he knew, and it was a pleasant and interesting conversation, anyway.
I wish I could remember his name.
It was a fascinating conversation, and I knew just enough to be able to hold up my end in basically understanding and appreciating what he was saying. I think -- hope -- he enjoyed that.
(And I was humble and curious enough to ask lots of questions. And I guess I knew enough to make some counterpoints and do my part in furthering the conversation.)
I left with the impression that he was a dyed in the wool engineer and personality. Although, at this remove, I'm a bit vague on how much of the conversation was engineering and how much business, about which he also certainly had some opinions.
Anyway, I only provide the details because it was the better part of twenty years ago and I'm sure I'm not revealing his hang out spot too soon.
He did have two places to recommend, the much more convenient of which was Lorraine's. They were packed, but they fit me in for dinner at the bar and the wild salmon was excellent.
P.S. I'm almost certain it was called Lorraine's, but I'm not finding it now. A short distance away, right on the water -- in fact, sticking out into the water. Gorgeous sunset views -- both the 2005 and 2006 trips had great weather.
Sam. Sam was his first name. Maybe another hour or two will give me his last name, from memory.
P.P.S. I can't edit my parent comment anymore, so replying to self.
The restaurant was Salty's. I wasn't zoomed in enough to get the name to pop.
Lorraine's is the steak house in Omaha that both my great aunt and Warren Buffett liked.
That's what comes of not thinking about something for a decade or two...
By the way, Walter, I agree with the others here; I always enjoy your comments and the insight they provide. This one just triggered a memory in me, of a character who reinforced my impression -- at some remove, on my part -- of the old Boeing.
I saw one up close and personal for the first time recently, and was caught off guard by just how genuinely huge it is. I kind of expect things like "famously huge X" to be a disappointment in real life, but no, I was viscerally reminded that it's (at least!) a three-story building on wheels, and that's not even counting the extra story or so of space beneath it as it rolls. My younger airplane-obsessed self would have been pleased. Hopefully an air museum or three picks one up before they all go out of service.
Wait until you see the Airbus Beluga [1] or Boeing Dreamlifter [2]!
I recommend going to the Davis-Monthan Air Force Boneyard in Tucson, AZ [3] and the nearby Pima Air & Space Museum [4] to see all the other big baddies.
I live directly under the flight path for the Beluga's landing in the Hamburg airbus site, in a nice area north of the Elbe river.
One interesting thing about the Beluga: the pilots very often fail to land them and have to do multiple attempts! The Beluga landing is kind of loud, but it's nothing compared to the sound of the engines when they pull up after a failed attempt
(They stopped at the onset of the pandemic and AFAIK never resumed.)
The museum is still well worth visiting, and driving around you can see some of the planes parked in the Boneyard. Davis-Monthan also puts on a pretty good airshow every couple years.
I have been on two tours of the A380 final assembly building, the last time was with senior Airbus people so got basically the customer tour walking round the aircraft.
Have seen Belugas flying and on the ground at Toulouse.
Beluga isn't that special, if you live where they come and go daily, sometimes several times. Rather annoying, because loud. At least louder than an A380, which is really big, but not as loud.
Indeed they do, the "City of Everett". You can walk around inside. Boeing used it as a test bed for various experiments. The Museum of Flight is really a gem.
Boeing used to offer tours of the 747 factory. It's immense. I wonder if they're spinning up a different manufacturing line in that building?
If you’re impressed by genuinely large flying things, I can’t recommend the Kennedy Space Center enough. Just standing beneath one of the rockets is truly impressive. Just one of the stars painted on the side of vehicle assembly building is as tall as three Kerbals on top of each other wearing a trench coat and pretending to be one tall guy. Like wow!
That stuff is cool, but nothing has ever blown my mind like seeing the spruce goose. It’s at the evergreen aviation museum outside of portland, and it’s impossible to believe how big it is.
The Delta Flight Museum at the Atlanta Airport has one on display that you can go on board and walk around inside. They've removed the the interior paneling in places so you can see the wiring and flight control cables.
Hrm. Imagine living near to the flight path of an airport. Say something like 1.5km to the side of it, at which point they are about 400m high, going between 280 to 320kph, depending on the wind, and model.
One late evening, shortly before 23:00, where airport is closing for the night because of local noise restriction laws, except for emergencies, otherwise heavy fines, something wasn't on that glidepath.
Immersing me in it's landing lights from beneath, and somewhere in the middle from each wing. Flew erratically. Curve to the left and coming down really low, then UP, then going back right towards the normal path. Coming directly over me.
While doing that the wingtips vibrated by at least half a meter, making the position lights a blurred vertical line. Wasn't even that loud, just BIG!
If it wouldn't have done the reclimb and curving back towards the path, it would have crashed into the highrises next to me.
What was it? A 747 from UPS, clearly visible because the golden letters against the brown tail were illuminated.
Sat there at my desk, thinking WTF?! Are you doing VFR, or what?
If you are in Europe the Technik Museum Speyer has one: https://speyer.technik-museum.de/de/
And if you are in the general area, their sister museum in Sinsheim has a Concorde and its Russian counterpart.
I was used to seeing mostly smallish domestic flight planes up close and to me they seemed big but not imposing. Once I saw one of them parked next to 747, and boy was I blown away. The small plane's fuselage was sort of same size as the 747's engine; and 747 had four of those engines! That's when I realised how humongous 747 is. I still marvel at human agency; not only can they build structures as big as 747 it can also fly across continent, reliably and safely carry hundreds of passengers in total comfort.
The https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_GE9X used in the 777x (assuming it eventually gets certified) is significantly larger than the 747 engines. Even the engines used on the original 777 from the 90s outsize individual 747 engines, which is somewhat terrifying.
What astonishes me is that they built the 747 first, before the small planes. It’s like Airbus’s birth was initiated with the Concorde, then the mass-passenger planes. All with negative timestamps, since we were before 01/01/1970 (joke).
Leaders of that time knew they had to start with the grandest project before cascading for a full range of smaller products; whereas leaders today roll out an MVP and try to grow from there.
It truly was another epoch, the epoch of mass amounts of money and resources, not little optimizations.
Yesterday, I took my 4-year-old son to la Musée de l'Air et de l'Espace in Paris so he could see and walk through a 747 in real-life. This was after flying to Frankfurt on a 787, and seeing a 747 and A380 on the tarmac there. He said, "I want to go on those ones."
Managed to fulfill the 747. La Musée had an A380 on the tarmac too, but not open to walk through.
Honestly, for aviation geeks, it's a worthwhile visit for the 747 and Concordes alone.
Exactly. Inside the 747 luggage bay, there is a brand new Renault Twingo 1 from the mid 90's. The plane is so huge the car looks like a toy (it's small, but still a car...).
I think the effect is partially due to all modern (well, jet age) airliners looking more or less the same at a glance. You can tell the 747 is larger than a, say, A320, because it has four engines and the second floor. But just how much larger the 747 is you see when they are parked beside each other.
This is true for many airplanes. The first time I saw the SR-71 I was shocked at how large it was. The photographs simply don't do them justice and often the pics that are used are those of the planes flying which have no items to set a scale with.
For those wondwring, the Blackbird is the same lenght as a 737-600. So, the next time you board a 737, try to picture something that size going mach 3+...
IMHO the 747 is the tech that changed australia more than any other post the shock of european colonisation, conquest, settlement, whatever you want to call that.
The world suddenly got a lot smaller and closer. Visiting foreign lands became a thing accessible to a vastly larger proportion of the population and that was all most needed to get out there and see some of it.
Closely followed by satellite comms, then fibre, then the web & consumer internet. (Skype and its ilk).
The A380 is great and drew a crowd for its first landing in aus. Somehow its still not a Jumbo Jet for all that it is even bigger.
Which areoplane is winning the kilogram kilometers per Litre of jet fuel for long haul nowadays?
> Which areoplane is winning the kilogram kilometers per Litre of jet fuel for long haul nowadays?
Pretty sure it would be A350, or B787, or one of the latest gen updated B777's. Basically stick the latest generation biggest super high bypass turbofans on a modern body with lots of composite construction to minimize weight.
I used to fly over to the US a couple of times a year for family holidays (from the UK) and almost always went on a 747, the difference in comfort was massive.
We often flew with a small little airline called 'Travel City Direct' who have since been merged into Virgin Atlantic. They leased two 747's from a charter company, one of them was all dolled up in their own livery, the other was just white and a looked super ropey on the outside...but inside it was still night and day a better experience than anything else.
We were fortunate enough to be in the 'bubble' on that one so had a great upstairs view - it was still only economy, but felt more like premium.
I later found out that the blank white plane we flew on so many times ended its days as the white 747 you used to see at Dunsfold - where Top Gear is filmed. Yep, that 747. The one they modified and used in the 007 film Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace to be the Skyfleet S570.
As a tall person, I miss the 747s if for nothing else the stairway area where you could stand and even walk around. They sure made sure to get rid of that nicety.
As a slightly above average height 6’1”, I’m finding it harder and harder to fit in most planes lately. Are they putting the seats closer together or something?
They're so quiet, and relatively comfortable. For years I've gone out of my way to take the A380 between JFK and CDG, because it's the only way to fly transatlantic in economy without it being a complete misery.
I sort of understand the economics of why they don't work for shorter routes, but those long flights are still extremely necessary, and everything else is godawful.
Emirates A380 every sector from UK to Oz and back in 2015 was a huge highlight of travel for me. They hadn’t done any obvious cost cutting and we got proper menus and silverware in economy. It was such a smooth flight and all the space on board to walk and stretch was fantastic.
I find the 787 a downgrade from the 747 or 777. The 787 is noticeably smaller and lighter which makes for a less smooth and solid-feeling ride in turbulence. Whenever I fly International I try to look for a 747 or 777.
The 787 simulates a much lower altitude and has more humid air I believe which makes recovering from long flights much easier in my experience. I look forward to the 777X which has the features of the 787 with the space of a 777.
Agree with this. Flew to Australia in 2015 on a 777. The return flight was on a 787. The increased air pressure and higher humidity made a huge difference in comfort and fatigue.
I think I’ve flown on a 747 maybe once in my life in a cross-US flight from LA to Florida. I remember being completely dazzled by the sheer number of people on the plane.
Recently I flew back from Europe on a 787 and that too was a wonderful experience. The plane feels like the future and was so comfortable and nice to be on.
In previous posts where the 747 has come up, I've been able to say that I once flew top deck on a 747 and what a privilege it was to do so before it ended service with U.S. carriers, not knowing how close I was to missing that chance forever.
And here I am, sitting in Berlin, reading this article about the last 747, happy in the knowledge that I will once again fly on the top deck of a 747 in exactly a week. Lufthansa's still flying them, and I could not pass up the $500 upgrade for the flight home.
I was fortunate enough to travel in a Lufthansa 747. I have never felt so joyously overwhelmed by any other vehicle. The newer A350s and A380s unfortunately don’t carry the same appeal for me personally.
The A380 looks real ugly for me resembling the beluga.
747 looks beautiful, majestic and aesthetically very pleasing.
Sad to see this plane approaching the end of its life.
Readit News
I was looking to a career in Aerospace Engineering - but it's an interest. I'm still in college, but I'm not sure if it's what I want to do. Regardless - what do you think makes an engineer an engineer's engineer?
Burt, who was in his 60s, was always excited to show me some new way of doing things, showing off his notebook, showing me his (then useless) slide rule, etc. He was also an endless source of engineering tales which he'd tell with relish. So was Erv, though Erv didn't work on the 747.
And they were happy to tell this stuff to me, because it was exactly what I wanted to be doing.
On the software side, I haven't met John Carmack, but I suspect that working with him would be a similar experience. Woz too, obviously.
Do you have anything online about your work at Boeing?
It was always a treat to hang around with Burt. The other engineer there who mentored me was Erwin Schweitzer, who'd take me flying with him (he was a pilot) and let me fly it once in a while. Burt and Erv were why I stayed at Boeing as long as I did.
Another engineer who took me flying was Ernie Spriggs. He hailed from Lockheed, and always went on about how great Lockheed was. I finally asked him "Ernie, if Lockheed was so great, why are you working at Boeing?" Ernie replied "because one day I told Mr. Lockheed he was a fucking asshole."
Good times.
P.S. What you suspect is true. A lot of Boeing engineers were also pilots. They loved airplanes and flying and engineering.
That turned into a half or maybe hour long conversation. Turns out he was an engineer with Boeing and was involved with stuff and knew the big shots circa WWII and/or a bit thereafter. This was early 2000's and he looked like he could be well into his 80's or even a well preserved 90-ish, so I had no trouble believing him. Plus, the details he knew, and it was a pleasant and interesting conversation, anyway.
I wish I could remember his name.
It was a fascinating conversation, and I knew just enough to be able to hold up my end in basically understanding and appreciating what he was saying. I think -- hope -- he enjoyed that.
(And I was humble and curious enough to ask lots of questions. And I guess I knew enough to make some counterpoints and do my part in furthering the conversation.)
I left with the impression that he was a dyed in the wool engineer and personality. Although, at this remove, I'm a bit vague on how much of the conversation was engineering and how much business, about which he also certainly had some opinions.
Anyway, I only provide the details because it was the better part of twenty years ago and I'm sure I'm not revealing his hang out spot too soon.
He did have two places to recommend, the much more convenient of which was Lorraine's. They were packed, but they fit me in for dinner at the bar and the wild salmon was excellent.
P.S. I'm almost certain it was called Lorraine's, but I'm not finding it now. A short distance away, right on the water -- in fact, sticking out into the water. Gorgeous sunset views -- both the 2005 and 2006 trips had great weather.
Sam. Sam was his first name. Maybe another hour or two will give me his last name, from memory.
The restaurant was Salty's. I wasn't zoomed in enough to get the name to pop.
Lorraine's is the steak house in Omaha that both my great aunt and Warren Buffett liked.
That's what comes of not thinking about something for a decade or two...
By the way, Walter, I agree with the others here; I always enjoy your comments and the insight they provide. This one just triggered a memory in me, of a character who reinforced my impression -- at some remove, on my part -- of the old Boeing.
Plus, if Salty's has held up, it's worth a visit.
I recommend going to the Davis-Monthan Air Force Boneyard in Tucson, AZ [3] and the nearby Pima Air & Space Museum [4] to see all the other big baddies.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_Beluga
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Dreamlifter
[3] https://www.airplaneboneyards.com/davis-monthan-afb-amarg-ai...
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pima_Air_%26_Space_Museum
One interesting thing about the Beluga: the pilots very often fail to land them and have to do multiple attempts! The Beluga landing is kind of loud, but it's nothing compared to the sound of the engines when they pull up after a failed attempt
https://pimaair.org/plan-your-visit/available-tours/
(They stopped at the onset of the pandemic and AFAIK never resumed.)
The museum is still well worth visiting, and driving around you can see some of the planes parked in the Boneyard. Davis-Monthan also puts on a pretty good airshow every couple years.
Have seen Belugas flying and on the ground at Toulouse.
The whole thing was designed on paper, with hordes of draftsmen drawing every single section, detail, etc.
I’m always impressed at how complex things could be with no CAD
https://www.museumofflight.org/aircraft/boeing-747-121
Boeing used to offer tours of the 747 factory. It's immense. I wonder if they're spinning up a different manufacturing line in that building?
https://www.deltamuseum.org/
One late evening, shortly before 23:00, where airport is closing for the night because of local noise restriction laws, except for emergencies, otherwise heavy fines, something wasn't on that glidepath.
Immersing me in it's landing lights from beneath, and somewhere in the middle from each wing. Flew erratically. Curve to the left and coming down really low, then UP, then going back right towards the normal path. Coming directly over me.
While doing that the wingtips vibrated by at least half a meter, making the position lights a blurred vertical line. Wasn't even that loud, just BIG!
If it wouldn't have done the reclimb and curving back towards the path, it would have crashed into the highrises next to me.
What was it? A 747 from UPS, clearly visible because the golden letters against the brown tail were illuminated.
Sat there at my desk, thinking WTF?! Are you doing VFR, or what?
https://twistedsifter.com/2010/11/picture-of-the-day-boeing-...
Leaders of that time knew they had to start with the grandest project before cascading for a full range of smaller products; whereas leaders today roll out an MVP and try to grow from there.
It truly was another epoch, the epoch of mass amounts of money and resources, not little optimizations.
That depends..
Managed to fulfill the 747. La Musée had an A380 on the tarmac too, but not open to walk through.
Honestly, for aviation geeks, it's a worthwhile visit for the 747 and Concordes alone.
Deleted Comment
The world suddenly got a lot smaller and closer. Visiting foreign lands became a thing accessible to a vastly larger proportion of the population and that was all most needed to get out there and see some of it.
Closely followed by satellite comms, then fibre, then the web & consumer internet. (Skype and its ilk).
The A380 is great and drew a crowd for its first landing in aus. Somehow its still not a Jumbo Jet for all that it is even bigger.
Which areoplane is winning the kilogram kilometers per Litre of jet fuel for long haul nowadays?
Pretty sure it would be A350, or B787, or one of the latest gen updated B777's. Basically stick the latest generation biggest super high bypass turbofans on a modern body with lots of composite construction to minimize weight.
We often flew with a small little airline called 'Travel City Direct' who have since been merged into Virgin Atlantic. They leased two 747's from a charter company, one of them was all dolled up in their own livery, the other was just white and a looked super ropey on the outside...but inside it was still night and day a better experience than anything else.
We were fortunate enough to be in the 'bubble' on that one so had a great upstairs view - it was still only economy, but felt more like premium.
I later found out that the blank white plane we flew on so many times ended its days as the white 747 you used to see at Dunsfold - where Top Gear is filmed. Yep, that 747. The one they modified and used in the 007 film Casino Royale and Quantum of Solace to be the Skyfleet S570.
Deleted Comment
However time marches on, and it’s also nice to notice how much nicer and quieter the 787 and A350 are, not to mention more efficient.
I sort of understand the economics of why they don't work for shorter routes, but those long flights are still extremely necessary, and everything else is godawful.
Recently I flew back from Europe on a 787 and that too was a wonderful experience. The plane feels like the future and was so comfortable and nice to be on.
I'm going to assume many people here have never flown on one.
And here I am, sitting in Berlin, reading this article about the last 747, happy in the knowledge that I will once again fly on the top deck of a 747 in exactly a week. Lufthansa's still flying them, and I could not pass up the $500 upgrade for the flight home.
I'll make sure to savor every moment.
The A380 looks real ugly for me resembling the beluga.
747 looks beautiful, majestic and aesthetically very pleasing.
Sad to see this plane approaching the end of its life.