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Posted by u/vincnetas 3 years ago
Poll: Would You Work for Elon?
Simple question with not so simple answers…

Watching Elon gaslight current and former Twitter employees in the public square, I couldn’t help but wonder if any engineers would actually work for this guy going forward and why?

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https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33622364

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viraptor · 3 years ago
Today, no way. Maybe 2 decades ago when I was a teenager and valued money way more. But regardless of his business outcomes, I'm not going to ever work for a manchild throwing public tantrums, who can't be criticised for valid reasons. His decision making process of throwing stuff and seeing what sticks is also something I don't want to deal with every day at work.

Life's too short to be a dictator's puppet.

jstx1 · 3 years ago
Why would you have done it back when you valued money more given that he doesn't pay more than the competition? In fact he seems to be cutting every possible benefit and increasing hours.

Working for his companies doesn't seem like some tradeoff between top compensation and a healthy work environment - his employees are getting neither of these things.

viraptor · 3 years ago
I assumed the context to be something like "would you still work there after the take over", or "would you accept the offer if that was the only big VC place you could get to" rather than "would you apply to work there while having other options". Otherwise, I would agree on just "no".
izzydata · 3 years ago
I suspect it is more of the situation like at Twitter. You have a job already and you need to decide whether to quit if Elon acquires your company. You might care more about getting a paycheck then whatever nonsense ensues.
PestoDiRucola · 3 years ago
> Maybe 2 decades ago when I was a teenager and valued money way more.

Even then it would not be a good idea to work for any of Musk's companies. The engineers that work there are notoriously paid little compared to industry standards.

toss1 · 3 years ago
Exact;y. I used to think that I'd go out of my way to jump at an opportunity to work for Elon Musk, and I've made many posts defending/promoting his ventures & skills.

But after what I've seen in the three weeks, and especially in the last two days, no forking way.

First, that he so obviously missed the issue with ID verification of important accounts, AFTER having worked in payments where you MUST find and block scammers & criminals, showed that he's just happy to waste everyone's time and make a mess based only on his own blustering ignorance.

Second, seeing his blatantly ignorant tweets about "1000 RPCs" slowing down rendering a Twitter home page, and how the actual number turns out to be "Zero", the emperor's cloths are truly gone. The now-fired employee was absolutely correct that Musk should have asked about it in the internal Slack or email channels, not in public.

Rather than the astute technologist, it looks like the curtain has dropped and he's just another blustering, manipulative, and abusive fool that got lucky at the beginning and had a large pile of funds to play with. I will grant that he is 1) exceptionally determined, 2) willing to take risks, and 3) does have some clarity on removing traditional bureaucratic obstacles. But I'd not want to be associated with him; we can learn that stuff from afar without the angst & abuse.

pyuser583 · 3 years ago
I value money a lot more than I did two decades ago.

Two decades ago I was a young, “fight the system”, James Dean want-to-be.

Now I have a family, mortgage, and the kids need braces.

And my water heater is making weird sounds.

Brian_K_White · 3 years ago
I don't think any of that justifies anything except in thevery short term. You gotta do what you gotta do sometimes, but not for life. Your family would rather have their dad than their dads paycheck. It doesn't require 120hours of hell at work just to secure food and shelter.

Why do I care? Everyone who is willing to abase themselves and suffer abuse makes the world suck more for everyone else who would demand a little basic dignity.

viraptor · 3 years ago
Yeah, but there are other places that pay decently. I've got 2 decades of experience now, and get paid enough in a good place. I know where I could get paid more, but even with a family, we don't need more. I even reduced my work to 4 days a week with the 20% hit and it's still enough.

For software engineers this is often simple to achieve.

bentt · 3 years ago
To be honest, I was a fan and explained away every offense he has made to date UNTIL he fired the Twitter Android app engineer publicly on Twitter. I felt that this engineer was engaging Elon about the problems at hand in a way that was admirable considering the circumstances. It was like the engineer knew he was falling on the sword, but at the same time was rational in his explanations of the current state of the app. I felt like he was being constructive.

When Elon decided that this type of person needed to go, I flipped on him. He might succeed, but I really don't like him any more. To him it's the cost of doing business, but in my opinion that single event will put more of a chill on his future hiring than any of his prior bullshit.

Workaccount2 · 3 years ago
Elon publicly apologized that the android app was terrible, without naming anyone. Then this guy responded publicly calling out Elon.

I don't know any CEO that would be cool with that. If Elon named him, sure, rip him apart. But Elon simply referenced the android app, and this guy took it personally in the worst way.

AlexandrB · 3 years ago
My read on that thread was that Elon was the one who took being corrected personally. The guy just pointed out that what Elon said about "1000 requests" was not correct nor was it the root cause of the performance issue Elon mentioned. If he had just said "sorry the Android app is slow, we're working on it", I suspect no one would have replied to him.
bentt · 3 years ago
Elon should 100% be okay with one of his engineers responding to such a thing publicly if the engineer stays on topic and debates the points.

My interpretation of why he fired the guy was that Elon thought the app sucked and this guy had worked on it for 6 years. After a cursory grilling, he thought the guy's answers didn't hold water so he must be part of the problem. This is really bad form and doesn't account for the many externalities that the guy had faced. Most importantly, having the balls to call out the richest man in the world, who is also your boss, in a public form and STILL keep it on topic and professional shows that he has a good head on his shoulders. I really didn't think he was trying to score points or make it personal.

taylodl · 3 years ago
So in other words Elon is just like every other CEO in your estimation? Wasn't the whole point of the image Elon has been building that he's somehow different from everybody else? Then he reveals himself to just be the same old same old crap we've become accustomed to.
wombat-man · 3 years ago
If it were me, I probably wouldn't have replied. I read later this was a Staff engineer working on optimizing the android app iirc. He was more blunt than I'd be comfortable with speaking to my CEO, but Elon seems to be someone who likes to get to the point so I was kind of surprised he reacted this way.
largepeepee · 3 years ago
Kinda reminds me of the ex-google engineer Damore case back in 2017.

Except Damore never did it publicly but it was leaked to the press anyway.

And anyone taking public adversarial stances against their bosses rarely last.

Corporations on general are ran like dictatorships, with few exceptions.

mcculley · 3 years ago
You were okay with him calling a stranger a "pedo guy"?
bentt · 3 years ago
thr83away · 3 years ago
Spot on. You explained it perfectly how I feel about this.
sonoffett · 3 years ago
I’ve done it (years ago). 4 managers fired in 8 months. I had to leave so I could do actual work. Seeing these Twitter reports is giving me flashbacks.
bheadmaster · 3 years ago
> Watching Elon gaslight current and former Twitter employees in the public square

People are using "gaslight" in contexts where it doesn't apply way too much these days.

jagged-chisel · 3 years ago
What you’re saying is:

> People keep using that word. I don’t think it means what they think it means.

And I agree.

sshine · 3 years ago
My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
rogerkirkness · 3 years ago
Yes, absolutely. I have two kids under five at the moment, so the long hours in office requirement might not currently work. But I'd consider taking an engineering IC role in future. Elon is a wartime CEO. Tim Cook is probably the best peacetime CEO active. Working for either would be an extremely interesting experience.
divided · 3 years ago
I respect your choice and to each their own, but to characterize Elon as a wartime CEO when he’s caused 80% of the crisis is a very generous characterization. His “leadership” thus far has been sporadic, ill thought out, and reckless.
lr4444lr · 3 years ago
I dunno where you come up with that number. Twitter was in real straits with investors compared with other companies in its class well before Musk was even on its radar. Two activist shareholder coups later and ousting of Dorsey, lackluster profits in good times, plenty of its own culture war scandals despite people piling on FB... can't pin that on Musk.
srfvtgb · 3 years ago
Elon is a wartime CEO in the same way that Putin is a wartime president.
dragontamer · 3 years ago
Twitter's problems were caused by Elon though.

Elon structured the deal (or at least signed the deal) such that Twitter is $13 Billion in debt upon signing, and therefore losing an estimated 4-million a day because of it.

Elon did not have to structure the deal like this. Elon did not have to push for the unsustainable $44 Billion buyout price like this. Heck, I'm pretty sure that Elon has enough money to buy out the $13 Billion debt (which is only worth $9 or maybe $8 Billion now on the open market) and solve this problem right now.

------

But instead, Elon _chooses_ to fire half the staff at Twitter. Elon _CHOOSES_ to get into public arguments with his engineers (and fires them afterwards). Etc. etc.

This calamity is a series of unforced errors. If the debt is too much of a burden, buy out the debt (or don't get into the debt to begin with). Its really not that hard of a problem.

--------

I've posted elsewhere on this. But the gist is, Elon took Twitter, a company losing $200 million/year, and instantly turned it into a company that was losing $1500 million/year. (And that's not counting the advertising exodus, which has been estimated at another $600 million of revenue lost due to Elon's poor decisions). Of course he's in panic mode right now, that's a lot of losses.

But Elon _caused_ all of this, with his crappy leadership.

drogus · 3 years ago
Even after reports of him firing people who disagree with him? I would hate to work for someone with such a big ego. Short way to have a team of bootlickers and opportunists.
joshuahutt · 3 years ago
Well said.
emaro · 3 years ago
I think I could not work with a boss I couldn't have a disagreement with. Just beeing a yes-man is not health for you, your boss and your work. Nobody knows everything better. Criticism is hard to learn.
tdehnel · 3 years ago
I have 2 friends who work for Elon (in meetings with him regularly). You can disagree with the man. It’s allowed. You better be standing on solid ground through because the man is smart.

Also, I cannot think of many bosses who you could publicly disagree with on Twitter where being fired isn’t a likely outcome.

the_only_law · 3 years ago
> You better be standing on solid ground through because the man is smart.

You act as if this makes him some untouchable gods. Recent events should have made it very clear that “smart” people can act like bigger idiots than your average idiot.

pavlov · 3 years ago
I also can't think of many bosses who would publicly disparage your work on Twitter to pressure you to work longer hours.
emaro · 3 years ago
Fair point. Elon seems to apply very different measures what counts as free speech though, depending on how much he likes it.

If my work was criticised by my boss in public with objectively (very) wrong statements, I would criticize him publicly as well (depending on the circumstances oc).

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bluedevilzn · 3 years ago
At Elon’s companies working hard is a requirement but you don’t get rewarded in return.

Tesla/SpaceX pays peanuts despite Tesla’s outsized stock returns.

If you believe in the mission, that’d be the only reason to join.

uxp100 · 3 years ago
I have to imagine Tesla does RSUs though right? So engineers are doing great over a 5 year timeline.

When I knew people at Tesla they were real fanboys of the car, which isn’t a bad thing, but if you’re trying to hire, like, ISO26262 certification experts I’d focus on paying a few experts well. The 24 year old fanboys can do the grunt work, but some well paid experts need to lead that process, and I doubt they’ll be that motivated by wanting to work for fast car guy.

wombat-man · 3 years ago
I think that was true when TSLA was a gravity defying rocket ship. Not sure that's something we can rely on to happen at this point. More players are getting serious about EVs.
api · 3 years ago
I'd work for Elon 10 years ago when he was focused on things like making life multi planetary and advancing the electrification of transport. If I didn't have a family I'd work for SpaceX 10 years ago for 1/2 my current pay and pull 80 hour weeks.

Elon today seems to be focusing most of his energy on political concerns that are frankly beneath him and very very stupid. Someone with his means and skills should not care about anything with a <50 year time horizon.

My only hope for him now is that he doesn't destroy SpaceX or cannibalize it financially for some vastly less important reason.

Related tangent: a lot of people are reading way too much into what Elon is doing now. I see a lot of Qanon quality speculations from his detractors. I think it's pretty simple. Elon went and got himself "pilled" by the same BS that "pilled" probably 1/3 of the Hacker News audience over the past 10 years. I wonder if he's been on the 'chans. Ockham's razor says no more complex explanation is necessary.

tdehnel · 3 years ago
What if freedom of discourse was more important than spaceships or electric cars or solar panels? I think it is. My guess is Elon does too.
AlexandrB · 3 years ago
Elon has completely failed to communicate what he means by "freedom of discourse". Judged by his actions so far it seems like it means "mostly the same as Twitter's existing policies, but you can't impersonate people and you especially can't impersonate Elon". Which seems like it's less freedom than before(?)

It honestly seems like he hasn't thought about the problem deeply enough to have a coherent vision here. We'll see, I guess.

strikelaserclaw · 3 years ago
Elon is one of those guys who is incidentally doing good for the human race but i suspect the motive is mostly for personal glory.
api · 3 years ago
Both/and I think, at least for Elon 1.0 (Elon up to about 5 years ago).

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