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metadat · 3 years ago
petilon · 3 years ago
This article says Musk agreed to buy Twitter mostly as a joke. I think there's a far better explanation. This wasn't a joke for Musk because after agreeing to buy Twitter he proceeded to sell billions of dollars' worth of TSLA stock, supposedly to finance the purchase. Even for the richest man in the world that's not a joke.

I think a better explanation is that Musk offered to buy Twitter as a cover for selling billions of dollars' worth of TSLA.

Look at this story: https://www.wsj.com/articles/elon-musk-sells-billions-of-dol... The headline is: "Elon Musk Sells $8.5 Billion of Tesla Shares After Deal to Buy Twitter"

Why does he need a cover? Because TSLA is way too overvalued. He has to know that it is overvalued. Tesla's market cap is double of Toyota, VW, Mercedes, BMW, GM, Honda, Ferrari and Volvo all combined! [1]. If you sell stock while knowing your company's stock is way too overvalued, you're fleecing unsophisticated investors. Pretending to buy Twitter provides a convenient cover.

Musk pretended that TSLA valuation is reasonable. Musk even called out Gates for shorting TSLA stock [2]. If he didn't have a cover then Musk would look like a hypocrite for selling TSLA.

In reality, both Musk and Gates sold TSLA, the only difference is that Musk sold stocks he owned, but Gates sold borrowed stocks. But Musk used buying Twitter as a cover, so he gets to pretend to be morally superior. Even though both men sold TSLA, according to Musk, Gates' sales means that he isn't serious about climate change [3].

[1] https://companiesmarketcap.com/automakers/largest-automakers...

[2] https://nypost.com/2022/05/31/elon-musk-calls-out-bill-gates...

[3] https://www.businessinsider.com/bill-gates-shorting-tesla-wo...

bambax · 3 years ago
This is alluded to at the end of the article:

> Is it fun for him? If he manages to walk away having spent only millions in financing fees, millions in legal fees and say $1 billion in termination fees, was it worth it? What did he get out of this? The guy really seems to like being on Twitter, and he did make himself the main character in Twitter's drama for months on end. That’s nice for him I guess. Also he made the lives of Twitter’s executives and employees pretty miserable; as a fellow Twitter addict I can kind of see the appeal of that? I always assume that “everyone who works at Twitter hates the product and its users,” and I suppose this is a case of the richest and weirdest user getting some revenge on the employees. He also gave himself an excuse to sell a bunch of Tesla stock near the highs. He maybe got an edit button too? Maybe that’s worth a billion dollars to him?

But for that to be the sole reason of the whole circus is conspiracy theory.

> Musk has buying Twitter as a cover

It's a very, very annoying/distracting cover, not to mention an expensive one.

nicce · 3 years ago
> It's a very, very annoying/distracting cover, not to mention an expensive one.

It is hard to say how expensive it actually is… if he had sold overpriced Tesla stock without cover, could that lose be much more than - one billion termination fee?

orestarod · 3 years ago
You do admit it is a circus, and no official explanation holds its ground. Why do you belittle the real reason, whatever it is, by negatively branding it a conspiracy theory? The real reason for this by definition falls in the category of a "conspiracy theory", since it is not included in any official explanation.
tarsinge · 3 years ago
How can it be expensive if it save you billions of dollars?

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tptacek · 3 years ago
That seems like an enormous amount of risk to take on just to sell stock that he actually owns and avoiding "looking like a hypocrite". It's not just plausible but somewhat likely that he'll be forced into an 11-figure settlement with Twitter to avoid the actual worst case outcome of being forced to take custody of and actually operate Twitter until he can unload it on someone else.
ratww · 3 years ago
It's not about avoiding looking like a hypocrite, the major theory is that it's about being able to sell 8.5bi without causing the value to go down too much.
Strom · 3 years ago
> Because TSLA is way too overvalued. He has to know that it is overvalued.

Indeed he does. He has talked about this publicly in various interviews over the years. [1]

> Musk pretended that TSLA valuation is reasonable. Musk even called out Gates for shorting TSLA stock

Musk definitely really dislikes short sellers, no doubt about that. However that is different from pretending that TSLA valuation is reasonable.

--

[1] A decent example is the 2021 Kara Swisher interview, where he states I have literally gone on record and said that our stock price is too high. https://youtu.be/O1bZg7frOmI?t=2450

swyx · 3 years ago
musk said that in May 2020, when the stock was at $140. it is 437% higher now even with the market pullback.
teleforce · 3 years ago
Thank you for the explanations. How this is not one of the top comments is beyond me. This comment most logically explains all the drama started several months when Musk offered to buy Twitter. The stories generated several of the highest rated posts and several of the most commented posts at HN, just adding to the drama. Now it seems that it's quite a possibility that the Twitter drama is just a red herring for Musk to sell the much overpriced TSLA stocks.
nosianu · 3 years ago
> How this is not one of the top comments is beyond me.

Uhm... Exactly this is mentioned in the article:

> He also gave himself an excuse to sell a bunch of Tesla stock near the highs.

So Levine already mentioned this.

LMYahooTFY · 3 years ago
How is it so obvious given the state of the market?

Bezos has also sold off a massive chunk of assets?

There's nothing odd at all about shorting the market during this time.

Rapzid · 3 years ago
I think the whole thing started as a lark because Twitter is personal to him and he knows better than everyone.

Maybe he sold more shares than he needed while he was at it; like you'd withdraw a bit more cash than you really need at the ATM.

Then the market down turn sobered him up.

Simple.

fbn79 · 3 years ago
Too much conspiracy theory. I think simply that Musk do not see the imminent market crash. Now he is going in tribunal to negotiate a lower price. The think will end with Musk owning Twitter in a way or another.
tarsinge · 3 years ago
OTOH let's not underestimate what kind of scheme smart people can come up with for billions of dollars. Maybe what he didn't see wasn't the market crash but that he could not back away as easily as he tough.
ordu · 3 years ago
> I think simply that Musk do not see the imminent market crash

It is possible of course, but unlikely. Musk doesn't seem to me as a person who might be surprised by this market crash, I heard him talking about the coming crash and how it will influence his plans before he started talking about buying twitter. My memory may be faulty but I think he mentioned it for example in December when justifying himself pushing SpaceX engineers to work harder to bring Raptor 2.

It seems more plausible for me that he tried to sell Tesla shares before the crash hit them.

godmode2019 · 3 years ago
This is the obvious answer for any rational observer.

Everyone seems to want to attribute it to some projected character fault in Musk, a chance to elevate their morality or intelligence higher than a famous rich guy.

Musks offer was strategically made before yearly earnings, when everyone posted bad earnings the market tanked.

qudat · 3 years ago
> I think a better explanation is that Musk offered to buy Twitter as a cover for selling billions of dollars' worth of TSLA.

Why waive due diligence then? What’s that saying don’t assume malice when it can be explained by ignorance.

pclmulqdq · 3 years ago
You can't announce that you are purchasing a public company until after due diligence, and the sale is in its final closing process. There is no "waiver" of due diligence per se, but the initial offer says "I did enough due diligence and I intend to purchase."

Most people would do their due diligence under NDA for a while while negotiating prices before making an announcement, and before lining up funding.

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davidguetta · 3 years ago
"Musk pretended that TSLA valuation is reasonable."

Excuse me what ? He alwways said it was overvalued. I dont think anyone would have bat an eye if he had sold for no reason

JaceLightning · 3 years ago
Twitter is overvalued at its current valuation. Musk realized that after making an offer. Now he has buyer's remorse.
treis · 3 years ago
He's sold plenty of Tesla stock over the years. No real need for him to make up a story.
dodobirdlord · 3 years ago
There is certainly some limit to how much of his stake he could sell out of at once without spooking the market and destroying retail investor confidence, though it’s hard to say what that limit is. Without some cover story I suspect an $8.5 billion sale would be newsworthy and significantly impact the share price.
akelly · 3 years ago
If that was his plan, why didn't he put an out in the contract?
perlgeek · 3 years ago
Because then the Twitter board wouldn't have signed it.
Tepix · 3 years ago
> Musk pretended that TSLA valuation is reasonable.

He did? I thought he said more than once that he believes the stock price to be too high.

pseudoramble · 3 years ago
I think this makes a lot of sense. A question I have about it though - why not say it's for something else then? If the goal is to get value out of Tesla and put it elsewhere, it seems like cash for another company he's running seems reasonable enough? Perhaps that's illegal for some reason I'm naive about?
datatrashfire · 3 years ago
This such an elaborate conspiracy, even if true, he's set himself up legally to all but have to acquire the company after Twitter beats him in court. This seems much less plausible than Elon is an impulsive person who likes attention.
grecy · 3 years ago
If that was his plan, what's he doing with the billions he now has in cash?
202206241203 · 3 years ago
Trust funds for the next dozen of his babies?
choppaface · 3 years ago
Do we really need to assign a financial motive to Elon Musk?! Musk is in it for his own entertainment. Period. And that greed changes as often as the phases of the moon. It's a good story to his following to come out financially ahead. It's also a good story to the libertarian crowd to drag the issues of bot accounts and free speech into court. And if the deal were to have gone through, I'm sure Musk would have made a great story forming an Alphabet/Berkshire-like holding company across Tesla, SpaceX, and his other amusements. And of course daily amusement of adding a Twitter edit button, an irony mode, etc.

But what will the legacy of all this mess be? It's looking a lot like Howard Hughes, except that Hughes successfully monetized his stage presence. Elon has officially thrown in the towel, and spit in the face of his wider audience in the process.

rmk · 3 years ago
Elon Musk has probably taken a big haircut on his current stake in Twitter and is also risking being forced to buy Twitter anyway or losing 1 billion plus legal fees. That sounds like an awful lot of work to sell 8.5 billion worth of Tesla shares.
shswkna · 3 years ago
> That sounds like an awful lot of work to sell 8.5 billion worth of Tesla shares.

IDK. Most people work their entire life not even getting to 1 million.

mlindner · 3 years ago
> Musk pretended that TSLA valuation is reasonable. Musk even called out Gates for shorting TSLA stock [2]. If he didn't have a cover then Musk would look like a hypocrite for selling TSLA.

This is outright false and goes directly against his multiple stated instances of saying that the Tesla stock price is overvalued. Don't make things up to suit your biases.

petilon · 3 years ago
If you believe your company's stock is overvalued, how can you fault someone for selling the stock? Bill Gates sold TSLA stock that he borrowed. If you truly believe that TSLA is overvalued, then it makes no sense to fault someone for selling it.
jlarocco · 3 years ago
Okay, so Musk didn't even pretend TSLA's price was reasonable, but surely you agree that "buying Twitter" is a good excuse for him to dump some TSLA while it's incredibly overvalued?
neither_color · 3 years ago
>Tesla's market cap is double of Toyota, VW, Mercedes, BMW, GM, Honda, Ferrari and Volvo all combined!

This phrase gets thrown around a lot with dunning-kreuger confidence so I'd like to add context that it's not unusual for a market disruptor to be worth more than the sum of its legacy competitors - you are on a tech website related to startup incubator you should know this already.

croes · 3 years ago
Tesla doesn't scale like some internet startups.
tsimionescu · 3 years ago
That would be the case if they had disrupted some market, but Tesla has only succeeded in creating a new niche vehicle, and cornering that market to some extent. They are still bit players in the overall car market (and they are losing market dominance even in BEVs, mostly to Chinese companies).
MichaelMoser123 · 3 years ago
Are you sure that TSLA is overvalued? Right now they are performing pretty well, for their niche.

I mean it will be overvalued if Toyota gets its act together - if the competition can produce reliable electric cars for the mass market. I suspect that this is not quite happening due to some real technical problems. A mass market electric car would need to handle some real problems with battery depreciation/range loss. I am not sure if that is happening, right now.

I found quite a range of opinions on battery depreciation, not quite sure who is right (never owned one):

https://www.carwow.co.uk/blog/do-electric-cars-depreciate#gr...

https://www.cars.com/articles/your-guide-to-ev-batteries-pre...

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/how-long-will-an-ev-battery-las...

tsimionescu · 3 years ago
It would be perhaps plausible for Tesla to be worth more than any other single car company.

But it is patently absurd for them to be higher than all other car companies combined. By any possible measure, they are far far smaller, and have far smaller prospects for growth, than the rest of the card industry put together.

The only place where Tesla has a lead is in sales of BEVs, where indeed they are selling more than the rest of the industry combined, except for some Chinese companies. However, BEVs are still a tiny part of the car market, and are likely to remain so for the next ten years at least.

thesumofall · 3 years ago
Several of the mentioned brands already have class leading or at least competitive electric cars on the market. The Mercedes EQS might be the best electric car on the market. VW’s MEB platform (ID3, …) clearly has mass market appeal even though it still has some weaknesses. Car companies have copied most of what made Tesla unique (OTA, …) and looking at any dimension, you’ll find a competing car that is better than a Tesla. Tesla still sells a good overall package but the times where they were without competition are clearly over
loceng · 3 years ago
I think there's an even better explanation, and liquidating $8.5 billion of Tesla stock may just be the icing on the cake:

Elon despises the SEC and he's now has exposed that the "less than 5%" of accounts are bots, that the SEC should have verified and accepted their methods for determining that number - and it should be adequate and reasonable to give a grounded-in-reality output, and it seems like it's a total bullshit statement.

I'd be surprised if Twitter stockholders don't sue the SEC.

tsimionescu · 3 years ago
> he's now has exposed that the "less than 5%" of accounts are bots

He did the opposite of that. The Twitter CEO's explanations are quite believable, and Musk has not presented a single tiny shred of evidence against them. He hasn't even presented any methodology he used to arrive at the belief that the 5% is wrong - and note that his lawyers were careful to call it a belief only, since they know full well that claiming it as a fact would be indefensible in court.

extheat · 3 years ago
So much noise here and ill-informed comments fail to give a broader understanding of what's going on. Elon bought up Twitter shares early in the year for a reason, because he wanted more control over Twitter. He bought up so much Twitter shares that when it was announced via the SEC, Twitter offered a board seat under the clause that he wouldn't acquire too much % control over the company. He obliged, but then left when he realized he couldn't make the changes he desired at the company. Plus, people on the board at the time, specifically Dorsey, was nudging him to buy out the company as a whole. So he did, hastingly. That was an ill-informed decision and obviously a mistake made with respect to doing due-diligence. In hindsight, before the market crash that price may have made sense. But fast forward today with looming recession talk, it's pretty clear he realized it's overvalued (we know this from tweets about twitter deal being repriced). And so he needed an escape hatch, hence the issue with bots and the unverifiable mDAU was a great talking point. In fact, he may as well be right on the issue as Twitter doesn't want to reveal how they calculate it. What he's trying to do right now is pretty clearly force the board to give a better deal. He's not sold any stock and likely won't unless he's actually out for good. But given the amount of effort and thought he's put into it and making it clear that he should pay a lower price depending on the bot issue, I don't think there's much doubt he's not actually leaving Twitter. Whether the courts will force an acquisition at the current price however, is a looming question. My bet is they settle at a lower price.
nocoiner · 3 years ago
Almost everything in this comment is wrong or misleading.

The point of an acquisition agreement isn’t to give the buyer optionality to acquire another company, it’s to ensure the buyer honors its commitment to acquire another company during the period between the time the buyer agrees to acquire it, and the time is it able to close on taking ownership.

Maybe EM developed buyer’s remorse because of the decline in equity markets, or a belated realization that the CCP will have significant leverage on how he runs twitter, or just woke up the day after signing with that feeling you get when you realize you’ve knocked up Grimes not once but twice.

Just because EM wants an escape hatch, doesn’t make it so. There’s a pretty tight contract that says he needs to buy twitter, at the agreed price, using the committed financing he arranged. EM can try to retrade the price all day long, but then there’s still that pesky matter of a binding contract… to buy Twitter… at the price he agreed with the board… that doesn’t have a diligence out or an “ehhh changed my mind” termination provision.

For a variety of reasons, the board doesn’t have a tremendous number of appealing options (like none) but they have a strong contract that explicitly contains EM’s affirmative obligation to, y’know, buy Twitter. That fact has very little to do with his feeling.

extheat · 3 years ago
> Almost everything in this comment is wrong or misleading.

Feel free to point out specific inaccuracies. I think it's pretty clear.

> Just because EM wants an escape hatch, doesn’t make it so

Yes, never suggested it's legally permissible.

> affirmative obligation

This is armchair speculation. Even if the text might seem to be clear in outsider interpretation, this is a matter solely for the courts to determine and both sides will have an opportunity to make their points across. I stand by prediction of the board ending up settling this case. It will get obviously challenged in court, but it's not "wrong" in the sense of predicting an outcome.

IgorPartola · 3 years ago
Technically Musk and Grimes’ second kid was born through a surrogate. But otherwise your characterization of waking up with that feeling is spot on.
ellyagg · 3 years ago
And yet somehow NFL and NBA players break their contracts all the time.
lovich · 3 years ago
I’m sorry, I need to ask a clarifying question here. Is it ok for us to seek escape hatches when we sign binding agreements with others?

This is very important for me as I need to find out if I can just walk away from all the student loans, car notes, and mortgages I may have entered into, as it’s no longer convenient for me, and I would really appreciate if I could make that my counter party’s problem

cloutchaser · 3 years ago
The sale will happen at a lower price. Even though Elon would probably be forced to do the deal in 3-4 years.

This whole thing actually creates a golden bridge eventually for the twitter board to retreat on.

The board now has an obligation to sue, otherwise they are breaching their fiduciary duty. However, almost all shareholders will realise that a 2-3 year litigation at the end of which Elon might be forced to buy, is a long way away. Better to settle for a lower price now. Both shareholders and Elon will see this. The board just needs to demonstrate they are fighting for shareholders.

I predict in 3-4 months the board will offer a shareholder vote with a lower price, and shareholders will realise that it's way better to take that deal than wait for litigation.

mabbo · 3 years ago
A fun side effect of all of this: if you believe in the court's ability to force Musk to buy Twitter, you should continue to buy up stock until it reaches the price Musk agreed to pay for it.

If you don't believe he'll be forced to pay, you should sell and/or short until it's at whatever you think the right market value for a stock of Twitter ought to be.

And wherever the price is between those two is a direct function of what experts believe the probability of each outcome is. It's like a massive betting market on a legal case.

saurik · 3 years ago
Well, minus a discount for however long you think it will take before that actually happens, taking into account such things as inflation, interest rates, and market performance (due to the opportunity costs of holding this stock until then).
KVFinn · 3 years ago
>A fun side effect of all of this: if you believe in the court's ability to force Musk to buy Twitter, you should continue to buy up stock until it reaches the price Musk agreed to pay for it.

How do I bet on no outcome one way or another for many many years? If there's one thing I know about the US legal system it is giant corporations battling each other takes years and years to resolve.

mcguire · 3 years ago
"...if you believe in the court's ability to force Musk to buy Twitter, you should continue to buy up stock..."

"If you don't believe he'll be forced to pay..."

Those are two very different statements.

I absolutely believe the court can compel Elon to satisfy the contract he's gotten himself into. I don't necessarily believe the court will do so. Specific performance isn't a popular result in those courts, apparently. That being said,...

"...you should sell and/or short until it's at whatever you think the right market value for a stock of Twitter ought to be."

Yeah, no. If I thought like that, I'd have shorted Tesla long ago. I also know that "the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent."

sangnoir · 3 years ago
> And wherever the price is between those two is a direct function of what experts believe[...]

I wouldn't call the hordes on Robinhood "experts": they are the marks that Elon plays like a fiddle on Twitter.

vehementi · 3 years ago
Yes, this is how it has been the entire time since Musk's offer. You'll see that the stock price was pegged at $54, and then when he started talking shit, the price went to some weighted average of the true FMV and Musk's offer, depending on confidence levels
hartator · 3 years ago
> that it has knowingly been massively understating the number of bot accounts in order to trick companies into buying Twitter ads and shareholders into buying Twitter stock

Wasn’t Google Ads 80% fake clicks on some studies? It won’t be surprising Twitter Ads is actually worse. There is so zero incentive to clean it up and so many shady reasons to do it.

tptacek · 3 years ago
That might actually hurt Musk's argument, because Google is incredibly lucrative despite the belief that ad clicks are overwhelmingly fake. The rule of thumb Levine (an attorney) gave a few posts ago for MAE's in Delaware courts is "sufficient to cause a 40% drop in profitability". Not stock price, not mDAU numbers, but income statements.
digianarchist · 3 years ago
> That might actually hurt Musk's argument, because Google is incredibly lucrative despite the belief that ad clicks are overwhelmingly fake.

They're still charging advertisers for those clicks.

bmitc · 3 years ago
Tesla bots are some of the most active on Twitter, or at least some of the most efficient in achieving their goal of manipulating Tesla interest, sentiment, and ultimately stock price. Musk knows this. I wouldn't be surprised if he knows who controls these bots.
kreetx · 3 years ago
Can you point to more information on this?
anonu · 3 years ago
Fake clicks and bot accounts are two distinct things in my opinion. Bot accounts are bad, fake clicks are much much worse.
hedora · 3 years ago
It depends on your perspective. As far as I'm concerned the whole target advertising industry is a blight on society. The more click fraud undermines it, the better.

On then other hand, bot accounts help get bozos elected, encourage mass shootings, etc.

Come to think of it, I don't think it depends on your perspective. Bot accounts are a much bigger issue than click fraud.

AceJohnny2 · 3 years ago
I am reminded of Neal Stephenson's Cryptonomicon, in which a significant plot point was a hostile buyer using due diligence as a kind of DoS attack on the protagonist's company.
dang · 3 years ago
Recent and related:

Notice of termination of Twitter merger agreement - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32027341 - July 2022 (1361 comments)

mlindner · 3 years ago
Not just related, this thread should be merged with that one. There is nothing new in this opinion piece article.
panphora · 3 years ago
I disagree. As a non-lawyer, non-financier, I found the deep & well-thought-out explanation fascinating. This is one of the best articles I've read this year.
dang · 3 years ago
That's probably true, but the other thread has over 1300 comments, so a merge would be a monster.
victor106 · 3 years ago
Elon’s going to get away with this. Even though he shouldn’t.

The rich play by different rules and the law lets them.

If the rest of us did the same we would have to pay ridiculous fines and/or spent time behind bars.

KKdU9EXbBhmLznR · 3 years ago
He most likely will have to pay a ridiculous fine (or, more likely, settlement). Of course, the ridiculousness of it will be that it doesn't consider his incredible means, and therefore he'll never miss it and it will have absolutely no impact on his behavior.
SalmoShalazar · 3 years ago
Normally I would agree with you, but you have to consider that he’s up against people who are also extremely rich. The legal system might actually need to maintain legitimacy through the proceedings and not just crumple under Elon’s never-ending tantrum.
f6v · 3 years ago
It’s not that he’s just rich. He’s involved in double-purpose tech that USA government uses.