This proves Google doesn't have control over the big picture.
They got badly surprised by their own security warning.
They are lying about the situation while knowing we know they are lying.
No message control / (social) media control. Does Google even have a public relations teams? A press officer? Is anyone managing all of this? Hello? Is somebody home?
6 + 2 months without progress from a company with infinite money -what is going on at Google? Fits right in with what happened to Terraria.
Also this is not the first time Google acting dirty - Youtube working crazy slow in Firefox, 15-20 attempts needed to solve stupid reCAPTCHA in non-Chrome browser only.
Google is acting dirty with YouTube in other browsers as well. I am 100% convinced they are sniffing the user agent and degrade the experience for certain browsers on purpose.
For example, in iOS Safari the desktop version of youtube.com has a completely broken picture-in-picture feature on the video element.
But if you open exactly the same page in iOS Brave (just a skin over the same engine because Apple doesn't allow competing browser engines) you suddenly get working picture-in-picture playback.
The funny thing is: A website doesn't have to do anything special to support PIP (introduced in iOS 14). Every video element automatically received that button. Google had to go out of their way to break this feature in Safari. (I assume they don't want to allow it because it competes with YouTube Premium, which specifically advertises "background play" as one of the paid features).
Maybe I am naive, but I would expect some chain of responsibility from the CEO down to the lowest intern. And "all our apps just stopped working world wide" or "we haven't released an app update for 2 months for most of our apps that are used by... probably billions of people worldwide" should be events that would receive scrutiny from upper level management?
The developer got his Google accounts suspended for no clear reason (probably stupid ML models to do moderation), and couldn't get anyone from Google to help, so he cancelled the release of Terraria for Stadia. Which seemed fair enough.
The very likely explanation is google is trying to do a cleanup - either removing the data from the mentioned apps from ads systems, or building transparency tools to give you more control.
I think this is a case of Google's security team saying "we should automatically warn apps that are two months out of date that they need to update," incorrectly assuming that their own apps would always update at least once every 60 days.
Can you imagine being an iOS developer working on Gmail right now, having shipped literally nothing this year? I'd be requesting an internal transfer (and/or polishing my resume).
I think there are two concerns here. The article starts off about the "outdated" warning, then goes on a tangent about Google not releasing iOS apps anymore because of privacy labels. tehlike is talking about why they think updates stopped; with Apple's improved privacy requirements, Google has to do some work to get their apps up to that standard.
For the thing that the article is about; i.e. the out of date warning, isn't that what Google is doing to all apps that embed a Google login now?
> Can you imagine being an iOS developer working on Gmail right now, having shipped literally nothing this year?
I'm sure they're shipping internal releases to 100,000 of their coworkers, so are probably getting feedback on new features while waiting for releases to the public to become unblocked. In the meantime, they're probably collecting more than $300,000 a year in total comp, so probably not super incentivized to quit. Google is kind of like other big companies now, I imagine -- don't rock the boat too much, do what your manager says -- with the upside that if you play your cards right you can accumulate a large chunk of savings that earns meaningful recurring income and a million dollar house you own outright before you're 40. Not for everyone, but I imagine the iOS Gmail team is not super incentivized to start burning down the corporate headquarters because they're restless about the release cycle.
> Can you imagine being an iOS developer working on Gmail right now, having shipped literally nothing this year?
This is a bit funny because from the user's perspective it's fantastic! To put it mildly, we are not great fans of Gmail upgrades, especially big ones.
> Can you imagine being an iOS developer working on Gmail right now, having shipped literally nothing this year?
Having worked at Google, it's very common that your work takes more than 6 weeks to reach users even when you're on the full release cadence (which is maybe a release monthly for most apps, and sometimes a cherrypick bugfix release in addition). Projects taking more than 6 months from engineering complete to being live wasn't even that exceptional.
If you're referring to possible justifications for the delay on app update releases, I really like (and want to believe) this angle and will update the article to include the thought. If it is indeed the case - then it shows that Apple's privacy labels are having a powerful pro-consumer effect on major app developers
I would prefer if you don't quote me for obvious reasons - i am speculating. I have left google about 1 year ago, so don't have any magical knowledge besides general workings.
I really think google is trying to be more good than bad in these matters, knowing how the sausage is made. but again, that's my probably biased view.
Interesting thing is that the data they collect on iOS is probably not less on Android, because they are more likely to remove collection to hide bad practices.
This makes the iOS privacy labels the minimum data they collect on Android.
I couldn't write a better press release! Really, "we are building the transparency tools needed to give you more control"?
It's been 8 months, 2 since their homework was due. The choices are (1) they are incapable and incompetent or (2) this is a fake manufactured crisis. There isn't even any particular app change required - you literally just fill out a sheet and add another prompt.
The very likely explanation is google is trying to do a cleanup - either removing the data from the mentioned apps from ads systems, or building transparency tools to give them even more control, over your phone.
My unpopular opinion is that these specific Google apps are advertising supported, and Apple are cutting them off from advertising revenue with the unavailability of IDFA on iOS14.5.
What is the motivation for Google to maintain these apps on iOS if these expensive apps no longer earn revenue for the company?
It will harm Apple iPhone sales if these apps are no longer available on iOS as they are some of the most popular in the world, so I'd say there is either wheeling and dealing behind the scenes to cut a deal where Apple pay Google to maintain these apps, or Apple are in panic mode trying to bring their own apps up to the level of the Google ones. Google Maps and Apple Maps may be near equivalents in the USA, but in the rest of the world Apple Maps is far behind.
This is about the requirement to disclose how much data you are collecting and what you are doing with it that rolled out as "Privacy Nutrition Labels" in iOS 14.3 a couple of months ago.
>Apple announced Privacy Nutrition Labels at WWDC 2020. Under the scheme, developers selling apps on the App Store must explain the privacy practices of each one they sell. That means detailed information concerning what data they collect, why, and what they do with it must be provided to users in the form of what looks like a food nutrition label.
Apple has asked developers to provide this information with their app since Dec. 8; while apps already available in the store don’t have to have it, as developers roll out updates, they’ll be expected to include where data is being used and in what category (including financial and personal data).
If you update your app, you must disclose the privacy information to users.
Google's solution to the problem has been to refuse to update their apps, and they have waited so long that they have triggered their own automated security warning.
Our apps (large well known company) had our legal team thoroughly go through our apps before allowing the privacy information be provided to Apple to ensure it was truthful. It delayed a release by a few days, otherwise no problems. It's not rocket science.
Maybe Google is taking the time to actually evaluate and correctly label what they use for advertising instead of taking FB's approach of checking every box.
Apple isn’t just cutting them off from tracking at the app level. Go look at Safari. It is tracking who is tracking you on websites.
Without these, Google only gets revenue from search on iOS. That itself is diminished because they won’t be able to later show you ads based on your search. That is why Google pushes you to sign in.
An additional problem is that search revenue from iOS devices is greater than on Android (as of a few years ago). So this, and that consumers spend most of their time on mobile, is a huge problem for Google. This is a LOT of their revenue.
Like you said, this looks like a silent war. Google can’t complain about monopoly power given that they control Android. That’s why this war is silent.
Also, this isn’t just about Google. You have Facebook, Snap, etc...
Yes, I have said the same in another comment here but it has been downvoted out of existence by some “well meaning” folk! Google are losing out on the web property advertising and in app advertising. Not updating or supporting the major apps is likely just being used as leverage by Google.
Here in New Zealand, Apple Maps is more or less on par with Google Maps with a lot of variability in different areas. I switched from Apple to Google about a year ago and to be honest even if Google Maps is sometimes better than Apple, it's not always better. There are times I wish I had access to Apple Maps as they actually have better data (or in some cases they have data while Google has nothing at all to show) in certain areas. New roads for example take ages (sometimes in the order of years) to show up on Google whereas they're on Apple relatively quickly.
I wish I didn't have to use Google Maps, but in Switzerland Apple Maps is terrible. I try the switch again every now and then but I've never managed to go a week without having to hop over to Google because Apple is lacking, so I might as well just use Google 100% of the time. It's a real shame. It's not even just convenient features like opening hours and such, but the most basic searches for a business or something...
In Austria Apple maps are pretty much unusable. Unless you are in a big city and only want to use main roads you are better of just walking in the general direction and hoping for the best.
Also a New Zealander. One interesting thing that Apple Maps features is maps inside buildings. For example, I work inside of a Westfield mall and you can zoom into the mall and filter by floors. Each floor shows their respective retailers rather than it all being dumped in one flat 2D plane
That's interesting! I'm an American currently in Costa Rica. I use Apple Maps in the US and its quality is decent enough. Here in Costa Rica, Apple Maps is virtually unusable. It says it can't provide directions for something just down the street, <1 km away.
I guess Google maps might use the IDFA, but photos doesn't have ads and Gmail only works when you're signed in, so a theory that this is related to the IDFA doesn't really hold water.
I would like to correct you here. It doesn't matter if the app is using IDFA or not. If the app is using data for targeting and advertising purposes, they have to disclose that.
Users are always signed into Facebook but they still have to disclose for instance.
You are applying a technical reason here, but see the bigger picture. Google is being cut off on making money on iOS generally - in web properties, in apps via admob, etc, etc, so may have made a decision that it is no longer supporting it and may be doing so just as leverage. Apple would see the danger that it would drive folks to alternatives that do support Google products.
Alternatively, Apples privacy stance means I’m sticking to an iPhone despite being unhappy about the closed nature of their eco system and Apple’s constant attempts to clamp down on the ability of 3rd parties to repair their devices.
Or maybe you could consider a company which has a good privacy stance and at the same time does not create walled garden and allows repairs: https://puri.sm/products. (happy user)
Nothing I've seen suggests they're able to implement aftermarket hardware checks on phones that are already on the market and don't have them. Difficulty of repair seems to go up a bit with every generation, too, as they cram more into every cubic millimeter. One more reason not to insist on the latest and greatest.
I was a die hard android user from its release until last year, my pixel 2 had simply become unusable due to battery life and performance issues that I'm 90% certain were related to ad tracking on android apps.
It's 2021, servers are a fraction of the pice and vastly easier to deploy than they were in '08 when Apple needed google for these apps.
I'm not convinced we use the G-suite of products for any particularly good reason other than they have a G and they are free. For the margins and scale of ios Apple could easily provide equivalent apps in-house if customers need them to be free or let the market set the price for non-ad supported versions.
Since switching I've only used gmail and maps/waze from g-suite. I'm 90% certain I can replace maps/waze in the near future.
A pixel 2 is a 4 year old phone... I wouldn't be surprised if your battery is performing at a fraction of its original capability, and that might be slowing down performance too. It's not like Apple is immune to this either: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batterygate
>It will harm Apple iPhone sales if these apps are no longer available on iOS
I don't think so, Google needs to be on iPhones much more than Apple needs Google to be on iPhones. Gmail works with Mail and I don't think many people are going to switch to Android just to use a native Gmail app.
> Apple are cutting them off from advertising revenue with the unavailability of IDFA on iOS14.5
Is it impossible to do any kind of advertising without the IDFA? Or is this simply a matter of them only being able to make a smaller yet still gigantic pile of money?
You still have lots of options for advertising. All that IDFA does is allow you to identify users across apps. E.g. you're using Google Maps and Google wants to use your behavior in the app to then show you ads in Safari later. Or vice versa use your browsing behavior from Safari to decide which ad to show you in the Google Maps app.
Also, it allows Google to track that you've seen an ad and later bought something from the advertiser's website, so the advertiser knows what they get in return for their ad spend.
The Google apps function like a security key. I pay Google too much every month for Youtube TV that I don't watch, and at this point isn't a bargain compared to restoring television service to the Comcast plan I need anyway for internet access.
When users access many types of paid subscription accounts, they are asked to confirm the login in a Google app on their mobile device. It's dangerous if vulnerabilities aren't being fixed and their servers still trust these apps to authenticate.
On another note, over the past year a few people have told me their new email addresses, then they continued using Gmail out of inertia. A significant enough problem with their aging apps could be the event that gets users to follow through and make a transition away from using Google services as a default.
Does anybody trust these privacy labels? What keeps companies from submitting some labels and be done with it? While still track everything for whatever purpose they like? Nobody can check what they are doing on their servers.
But you can check what your device is sending to their servers. Intentionally lying about data collection seems like an easy way to get kicked off the App Store entirely.
All traffic is encrypted these days. So you cannot check it.
Also the labels are not so much about what data is sent but about what the companies do with the data. Example: Do they just use your position once to show you relevant search results, or do they create a location history of you? Do they sell that history? Do they combine it with other data about you? There is no way to know.
When looking at my app's settings, it's using the honor system for these labels. Apple is giving companies a way to display privacy info on their app's page, but the labels aren't verified. Think of it the same as the app's description field.
it's not a big deal, it just highlights that Google has stalled over 2 months on pushing out updates for its flagship apps, because it seems they don't want to add iOS privacy "nutrition" labels. Like Facebook did (and suffered some[0] pushback[1] for). Edit: interesting that this is getting downvoted.
My guess is you're being downvoted because you claimed Google doesn't want to add iOS privacy "nutrition" labels with absolutely no evidence to back you up.
As HN's guidelines say, always assume the best intensions.
It's just as likely they just haven't shipped the new versions of the apps yet for many other technical reasons. Given the labels are a requirement and Google hasn't announced a lawsuit, there's no reason to believe they have any intention to not add them.
I see articles like this with a semi-conspiratorial angle and I just roll my eyes. They had a bug, and they fixed it. Not everything is part of some master plot.
The "big deal" is that Google hasn't updated any of its apps since Dec 8, due to ongoing privacy war with Apple over Google's iOS apps. Google refuses to admit, as Facebook has, to tracking everything you do in every possible way.
This is "just" the first big thing to break as a result.
> While Google stalls on pushing updates to its apps, it’s notable that its rivals like Apple Maps, are continuing to innovate with new features in their apps.
Ha, I actually followed that link, curious what new features Apple Maps has. The only update listed there is this:
> Apple Maps update to add Google Maps and Waze-like incident reporting
Readit News
They got badly surprised by their own security warning.
They are lying about the situation while knowing we know they are lying.
No message control / (social) media control. Does Google even have a public relations teams? A press officer? Is anyone managing all of this? Hello? Is somebody home?
6 + 2 months without progress from a company with infinite money -what is going on at Google? Fits right in with what happened to Terraria.
Great reason to leave Google.
For example, in iOS Safari the desktop version of youtube.com has a completely broken picture-in-picture feature on the video element.
But if you open exactly the same page in iOS Brave (just a skin over the same engine because Apple doesn't allow competing browser engines) you suddenly get working picture-in-picture playback.
The funny thing is: A website doesn't have to do anything special to support PIP (introduced in iOS 14). Every video element automatically received that button. Google had to go out of their way to break this feature in Safari. (I assume they don't want to allow it because it competes with YouTube Premium, which specifically advertises "background play" as one of the paid features).
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26061935
disclaimer: ex-googler in ads.
Can you imagine being an iOS developer working on Gmail right now, having shipped literally nothing this year? I'd be requesting an internal transfer (and/or polishing my resume).
For the thing that the article is about; i.e. the out of date warning, isn't that what Google is doing to all apps that embed a Google login now?
> Can you imagine being an iOS developer working on Gmail right now, having shipped literally nothing this year?
I'm sure they're shipping internal releases to 100,000 of their coworkers, so are probably getting feedback on new features while waiting for releases to the public to become unblocked. In the meantime, they're probably collecting more than $300,000 a year in total comp, so probably not super incentivized to quit. Google is kind of like other big companies now, I imagine -- don't rock the boat too much, do what your manager says -- with the upside that if you play your cards right you can accumulate a large chunk of savings that earns meaningful recurring income and a million dollar house you own outright before you're 40. Not for everyone, but I imagine the iOS Gmail team is not super incentivized to start burning down the corporate headquarters because they're restless about the release cycle.
"This year" as in 6 weeks? Is that a lot in Google or iOS-land?
This is a bit funny because from the user's perspective it's fantastic! To put it mildly, we are not great fans of Gmail upgrades, especially big ones.
Having worked at Google, it's very common that your work takes more than 6 weeks to reach users even when you're on the full release cadence (which is maybe a release monthly for most apps, and sometimes a cherrypick bugfix release in addition). Projects taking more than 6 months from engineering complete to being live wasn't even that exceptional.
I really think google is trying to be more good than bad in these matters, knowing how the sausage is made. but again, that's my probably biased view.
It's been 8 months, 2 since their homework was due. The choices are (1) they are incapable and incompetent or (2) this is a fake manufactured crisis. There isn't even any particular app change required - you literally just fill out a sheet and add another prompt.
disclaimer: deep cynic over all google's actions.
disclaimer: ex-googler not in ads
Deleted Comment
This is about the requirement to disclose how much data you are collecting and what you are doing with it that rolled out as "Privacy Nutrition Labels" in iOS 14.3 a couple of months ago.
>Apple announced Privacy Nutrition Labels at WWDC 2020. Under the scheme, developers selling apps on the App Store must explain the privacy practices of each one they sell. That means detailed information concerning what data they collect, why, and what they do with it must be provided to users in the form of what looks like a food nutrition label.
Apple has asked developers to provide this information with their app since Dec. 8; while apps already available in the store don’t have to have it, as developers roll out updates, they’ll be expected to include where data is being used and in what category (including financial and personal data).
https://www.computerworld.com/article/3600998/apples-privacy...
If you update your app, you must disclose the privacy information to users.
Google's solution to the problem has been to refuse to update their apps, and they have waited so long that they have triggered their own automated security warning.
Without these, Google only gets revenue from search on iOS. That itself is diminished because they won’t be able to later show you ads based on your search. That is why Google pushes you to sign in.
An additional problem is that search revenue from iOS devices is greater than on Android (as of a few years ago). So this, and that consumers spend most of their time on mobile, is a huge problem for Google. This is a LOT of their revenue.
Like you said, this looks like a silent war. Google can’t complain about monopoly power given that they control Android. That’s why this war is silent.
Also, this isn’t just about Google. You have Facebook, Snap, etc...
Users are always signed into Facebook but they still have to disclose for instance.
- Sent from my iPhone SE (1st generation)
It's 2021, servers are a fraction of the pice and vastly easier to deploy than they were in '08 when Apple needed google for these apps.
I'm not convinced we use the G-suite of products for any particularly good reason other than they have a G and they are free. For the margins and scale of ios Apple could easily provide equivalent apps in-house if customers need them to be free or let the market set the price for non-ad supported versions.
Since switching I've only used gmail and maps/waze from g-suite. I'm 90% certain I can replace maps/waze in the near future.
Pretty sure that's just crappy google quality. My 2 year old Samsung is going strong. It became marginally faster with the latest update.
I don't think so, Google needs to be on iPhones much more than Apple needs Google to be on iPhones. Gmail works with Mail and I don't think many people are going to switch to Android just to use a native Gmail app.
Is it impossible to do any kind of advertising without the IDFA? Or is this simply a matter of them only being able to make a smaller yet still gigantic pile of money?
Also, it allows Google to track that you've seen an ad and later bought something from the advertiser's website, so the advertiser knows what they get in return for their ad spend.
When users access many types of paid subscription accounts, they are asked to confirm the login in a Google app on their mobile device. It's dangerous if vulnerabilities aren't being fixed and their servers still trust these apps to authenticate.
On another note, over the past year a few people have told me their new email addresses, then they continued using Gmail out of inertia. A significant enough problem with their aging apps could be the event that gets users to follow through and make a transition away from using Google services as a default.
Also the labels are not so much about what data is sent but about what the companies do with the data. Example: Do they just use your position once to show you relevant search results, or do they create a location history of you? Do they sell that history? Do they combine it with other data about you? There is no way to know.
Deleted Comment
[0] - https://twitter.com/tomwarren/status/1339174301564604418 [1] - https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1347165127036977153
As HN's guidelines say, always assume the best intensions.
It's just as likely they just haven't shipped the new versions of the apps yet for many other technical reasons. Given the labels are a requirement and Google hasn't announced a lawsuit, there's no reason to believe they have any intention to not add them.
https://apps.apple.com/us/developer/google-llc/id281956209
This is "just" the first big thing to break as a result.
(This is a likely comment if this was to go on for 6 months).
Given I have an ipad and don't see these messages about these apps, eg gmail, I'm not sure what to make of this article.
Is this a region based thing?
Automated expiry notice because they (rightly) deliberately release often?
Ha, I actually followed that link, curious what new features Apple Maps has. The only update listed there is this:
> Apple Maps update to add Google Maps and Waze-like incident reporting
Ok then.