> Hughes said. “Any claim of use for classified information is 100 percent untrue.”
It's great to be able to say "Signal has never, EVER been used for classified information" in a context where classified information discussed on Signal has just been leaked.
It's the first line of the thirty-three dog whistle defense. The followers accept that answer as King Krasnov having simply declared that any such information isn't classified, just like he did for those boxes of files exfiltrated to his bathroom-turned-guest-library. It's the adult version of a kid going "I'm not hitting my brother I'm just swinging my arms and walking forward". And then of course if the courts actually start to disagree, the neofascists ramp up the threats for stochastic violence.
> It's the adult version of a kid going "I'm not hitting my brother I'm just swinging my arms and walking forward".
I always say that adults are kids who don't have the supervision anymore.
When a kid says "2 + 2 = 5" you can say "well you always fail your math exams, you obviously can't be trusted with that". When an adult says it... it becomes a "belief" and we "respectfully agree to disagree".
The logic is that since they are the bosses they can dictate what is classified and what is not. So something is classified until it's mishandled, at which point it's not classified, therefore it's not mishandled. lol.
I don't doubt that's their logic, but below the office of the POTUS it isn't true.
For that matter, the power of the POTUS to declassify things is part of the overall asssumed powers, not explicitly set forth in law anywhere (so far as I am aware), but increasingly supported by SCOTUS decisions.
In precise, dried-ink legal terms, if I am someone entitled to read classified information, and mark my grocery list top and bottom with the appropriate signage, that stupid list actually becomes classified. Sharing it with a friend then literally becomes a federal crime. Declassification is a specified process, involving review and approval by authorities (not me), or expiration of the classified period (a default for low levels of classification - it can of course be renewed).
Trump has maintained he has the power to declassify things with his mind alone, so I'm sure this is entirely true. Whatever they were talking about, bam, it's no longer classified.
At least they're using Signal, I guess. Can you imagine if this leaked and they were using something like Telegram!?
The upside is that we now know what people with basically unrestricted access to the inner workings of the US surveillance state machine consider the most secure way to evade it.
I think what the commenter says is more dire than that. Even after this administration, this is going to keep happening until a major event happens. It's not just about the ghouls in there now, it's about the ghouls that will follow.
In theory, Congressional investigation w/ power of subpoena and an ability to hand out prison sentences. Also in theory, if they lose office, subsequent admin needs to be able to prosecute. Assuming we can vote again in the future
High-aggression is a negotiating tactic with basic goals - to intimidate the other side into thinking you are implacable, and to make you seem unstoppable.
It's a tactic. Like everyone else, they have interests and goals and needs, and they can be deterred in the same way. The problem is, nobody really tries. The Democrats keep doing the same ineffective things - a demonstration of being cowed and intimidated.
For example, the Dems have almost no ability to communicate with the public. Whatever Trump and the GOP say are effectively true because there is no counter voice (beyond some third parties). The Dems don't do anything about it; they just keep communicating in the same way.
The Dems have no talking points. A few of them are organizing now around 'economic populism' - in other words, they are completely cowed and will avoid all the major threats to freedom, democracy, the rule of law, safety; the corruption, cruelty, and hate. They are going to their safe space - economic policy!
There are a lot of Trump supporters on HN. More data points that highlight how incompetent or corrupt this administration is might eventually sway them.
Midterm and special elections are real points where negative stimuli could occur. If polling gets bad enough, swing state Republican politicians might start sweating sooner.
So maybe for you this is just obvious confirmation of what you already know. But by reporting and following up on this story, maybe some people will learn and understand something they did not before.
Trump supporters are unswayable. The same rule about negative stimulus applies. Nothing you can say makes a difference, but if they start losing money eventually they might change behavior. Or they radicalize further.
Does this sentiment extend more broadly than a single administration? Can we broadly expect many potentially problematic behaviors to continue until an effective negative stimulus is given?
It's interesting to me why this perspective is popular when applied a certain administration but not popular when applied to other things such as
This is what I find so funny about the oh so serious protests about the current administration that people make in these comments. When other administrations do the same thing, it's one excuse after another, or just silence. These people are just mindlessly posting based on political memes, they're simply not serious.
One nice side effect of Signal's importance for governmental/military use is that it helps keep it free for civilian use. They can't mandate a backdoor for something other parts of the government rely on to be secure.
I once heard a great anecdote to that effect, and to my embarrassment I can't recall the details to repeat here.
(And yes, I understand that there are limits on what is appropriate to share with civilian hardware on a civilian network, but the truth stands that part of the reason there's not a push to breach encryption in the US like there is in the UK is because Signal is relied upon even by the government when they need a private channel on civilian hardware.)
> They can't mandate a backdoor for something other parts of the government rely on to be secure.
This is a strong assumption..
A government is a collection of people. While there might not exactly be warring factions in the US government, there are certainly numerous agencies and organizations that operate under varying degrees of independence.
Even more sinister is the false hope bias. The Signal app can be used as a honeypot to plant a pseudo-secure messenger, a sophisticated device around a backdoor, or even a trojan-like capability.
The Tor network was deemed the culprit of anonymity and secure connections not long ago. We all know how it went.
> They can't mandate a backdoor for something other parts of the government rely on to be secure
Has the NSA moved on from the NOBUS ("NObody But US") doctrine? Empirically, they have been more than happy to keep any vulnerability (or backdoor) available if they believe only they can exploit it.
A major reason for these people using Signal is specifically to avoid government access to records of these chats. In particular access by future administrations, or current or near future judicial or congressional investigations.
Now the task of an adversary is to simply enable the backdoor rather than create it from scratch. The people using Signal for this are doing it on their own devices, so now you have multiple problems.
Eg how to get non technical people to know when they’re using the civilian version.
Alternative crazy universe:
Just use the tech that was created for the government and does all the right things.
You'd be surprised how much the government would potentially hurt itself in its own confusion. Not all parts of it are aligned to the same beliefs / mission, and there are certainly parts that believe in the saying "Why are you worried if you have nothing to hide".
There was a rather interesting criticism of the recent wide-ranging cuts to USAID that basically said it wasn't unlikely that some of that USAID money was being used in clandestine intelligence operations (supporting the tribe of this warlord or that, paying someone off, rewarding allegiances, whatever) that DOGE and perhaps even most at USAID would never, ever be cleared to know about. With the inability to prevent those aid packages from being cut without also blowing their operations, the intelligence community would just have to sit and watch it happen.
I of course have no way of knowing if that's true or not, or if it is what damage may have been done, but it's interesting to consider.
I don't claim to be an expert, nor to be able to speak credibly on the interactions of the millions of people in government.
I just remember hearing an anecdote from a friend with ties to Signal that some part of the government wanted to recommend it and another part slapped their hand because they didn't want to encourage people to use technology that law enforcement can't breach.
Even though I just use it for casual conversations with friends, that gave me some extra confidence in using it.
Sorry, but no, there is no good thing to come from government using Signal. With its auto-deleting messages, that makes it illegal for government employees to use, and destroys transparency.
Auto-deleting messages are not necessarily auto-illegal. Voice conversations are also auto-deleting but obviously they’re common among government employees.
Officials are required to document decisions in an archival way. If they fail to do that, it is arguable that their failure to follow the law is the problem, not the messaging technology.
I think it is in everyone’s interest to resist the assumption that chat and text messaging is intended to be a permanent record—even for govt officials.
Eh.... you think government officers who fat-clicked a journalist into a top secret discussion would care about whether some other three-letter agency has access to a backdoor in Signal?
For all we know, whoever US agent who was responsible for handling these potential "backdoors" is already laid off and is available for pickup by foreign governments with the right payment.
you believe that fat clicker story? consider this: what if they wanted to leak, they wanted to leak to someone that the bombings were going to put in immediate danger, and they added the journalist just in case the leak got exposed?
BlackBerry was in the same position, and it was absolutely backdoored from a crypto perspective. The FBI doesn’t cry about iPhones anymore, so they’ve likely (along with other entities) identified alternate methods to access communications.
The use of these sorts of actions are about avoiding accountability, not security. Again, BlackBerry is the exemplar — PIN messaging was tied to a device, not a user. People 20 years ago were doing these signal chats with BlackBerry devices, swapping them around physically to build these groups.
Even then, people in these positions of power weren’t as reckless and incompetent. In addition to the reporter, one of the participants was on a civilian phone in Russia. The FSB or whomever does their signals intelligence got a real-time feed of intelligence, military operations, etc. The American pilots were put at risk, and Israeli spies were burned.
i mean... you're saying if signal weren't secure, trump's clown cabinet would stop using it? the guy who kept boxes of top secret documents in a bathroom at mar-a-lago? you don't think they'd just use SMS or facebook messenger or anything if using signal was a slight inconvenience?
The reason for this is simply to avoid discovery / FOIA requests, since messages delete.
Of courses it’s illegal, but the entire administration is operating as a criminal enterprise / an extension of all previous administrations, but in a way the most impressive disregard for rule of law we’ve seen.
FOIA doesn't apply to the Executive Office of the President. The NSC is covered by the Presidential Records Act, but its records are not subject to FOIA requests.
I know we've all been talking about how 'history is back' in terms of geopolitics not ending like some thought in the 90s. But if a huge proportion of goverment communications is taking place on self destructing messages rather than minuted meetings and filed paperwork etc, perhaps history has ended after all.
There are a ton of face-to-face conversations between officials that don't get recorded. Why is text messaging so special? Are their phone calls recorded? I don't think they are.
I'm really surprised that these folks go with Signal over something like Element or another Matrix client. Element/Matrix is already used in other places within the Government and has a better UX for team collaboration while maintaining high standards of encryption, so you would think that would be the default.
Security is far more than that and Signal does the 'far more'. Every independent security expert (I can think of) recommends Signal for security, including CISA, and now the CIA, NSC, etc.
One security pundit, I think Schneier, said that focusing on encryption is like putting a titanium door on your house and saying it's secure. Yes, nobody can damage that door, but there are windows, hinges, a lock to pick, the chimney, remote listening devices, tracking Internet usage, searching your garbage, ...
What is supposed to be the default, though? Presumably not something that goes on your phone, right?
That said I’m not sure how leaders are supposed to quickly collaborate across time and space anymore. Not every location has a SCIF, but I suppose that’s the high bar we should hold.
Readit News
It's great to be able to say "Signal has never, EVER been used for classified information" in a context where classified information discussed on Signal has just been leaked.
I always say that adults are kids who don't have the supervision anymore.
When a kid says "2 + 2 = 5" you can say "well you always fail your math exams, you obviously can't be trusted with that". When an adult says it... it becomes a "belief" and we "respectfully agree to disagree".
For that matter, the power of the POTUS to declassify things is part of the overall asssumed powers, not explicitly set forth in law anywhere (so far as I am aware), but increasingly supported by SCOTUS decisions.
In precise, dried-ink legal terms, if I am someone entitled to read classified information, and mark my grocery list top and bottom with the appropriate signage, that stupid list actually becomes classified. Sharing it with a friend then literally becomes a federal crime. Declassification is a specified process, involving review and approval by authorities (not me), or expiration of the classified period (a default for low levels of classification - it can of course be renewed).
At least they're using Signal, I guess. Can you imagine if this leaked and they were using something like Telegram!?
That would be a lot more fun :-).
But I'm happy it's Signal: they apparently got a ton of downloads from all the attention and they deserve it.
The behavior will continue until an effective negative stimulus is given.
Then immediately stop reading. The details don't matter at this point.
Losing office is about the only unarguable one. Barring a coup, that isn't happening any time soon.
Practically any other stimulus will be perceived as positive.
It's a tactic. Like everyone else, they have interests and goals and needs, and they can be deterred in the same way. The problem is, nobody really tries. The Democrats keep doing the same ineffective things - a demonstration of being cowed and intimidated.
For example, the Dems have almost no ability to communicate with the public. Whatever Trump and the GOP say are effectively true because there is no counter voice (beyond some third parties). The Dems don't do anything about it; they just keep communicating in the same way.
The Dems have no talking points. A few of them are organizing now around 'economic populism' - in other words, they are completely cowed and will avoid all the major threats to freedom, democracy, the rule of law, safety; the corruption, cruelty, and hate. They are going to their safe space - economic policy!
There are a lot of Trump supporters on HN. More data points that highlight how incompetent or corrupt this administration is might eventually sway them.
Midterm and special elections are real points where negative stimuli could occur. If polling gets bad enough, swing state Republican politicians might start sweating sooner.
So maybe for you this is just obvious confirmation of what you already know. But by reporting and following up on this story, maybe some people will learn and understand something they did not before.
That's truly an absurd suggestion. I hope you're just attempting to make some kind of point, but not suggesting people actually ignore "the details"
Where are we?
It's interesting to me why this perspective is popular when applied a certain administration but not popular when applied to other things such as
* Poverty \ * Drug Addiction \ * Homelessness \ * Obesity \ * Undocumented Border Crossings
Stimulus
I once heard a great anecdote to that effect, and to my embarrassment I can't recall the details to repeat here.
(And yes, I understand that there are limits on what is appropriate to share with civilian hardware on a civilian network, but the truth stands that part of the reason there's not a push to breach encryption in the US like there is in the UK is because Signal is relied upon even by the government when they need a private channel on civilian hardware.)
This is a strong assumption.. A government is a collection of people. While there might not exactly be warring factions in the US government, there are certainly numerous agencies and organizations that operate under varying degrees of independence.
The Tor network was deemed the culprit of anonymity and secure connections not long ago. We all know how it went.
Has the NSA moved on from the NOBUS ("NObody But US") doctrine? Empirically, they have been more than happy to keep any vulnerability (or backdoor) available if they believe only they can exploit it.
Why not? It wouldn't be difficult to have a backdoor in the civilian use-case that's disabled for government use.
Eg how to get non technical people to know when they’re using the civilian version.
Alternative crazy universe: Just use the tech that was created for the government and does all the right things.
Deleted Comment
I of course have no way of knowing if that's true or not, or if it is what damage may have been done, but it's interesting to consider.
I just remember hearing an anecdote from a friend with ties to Signal that some part of the government wanted to recommend it and another part slapped their hand because they didn't want to encourage people to use technology that law enforcement can't breach.
Even though I just use it for casual conversations with friends, that gave me some extra confidence in using it.
Officials are required to document decisions in an archival way. If they fail to do that, it is arguable that their failure to follow the law is the problem, not the messaging technology.
I think it is in everyone’s interest to resist the assumption that chat and text messaging is intended to be a permanent record—even for govt officials.
Is it true for the other two?
Deleted Comment
For all we know, whoever US agent who was responsible for handling these potential "backdoors" is already laid off and is available for pickup by foreign governments with the right payment.
BlackBerry was in the same position, and it was absolutely backdoored from a crypto perspective. The FBI doesn’t cry about iPhones anymore, so they’ve likely (along with other entities) identified alternate methods to access communications.
The use of these sorts of actions are about avoiding accountability, not security. Again, BlackBerry is the exemplar — PIN messaging was tied to a device, not a user. People 20 years ago were doing these signal chats with BlackBerry devices, swapping them around physically to build these groups.
Even then, people in these positions of power weren’t as reckless and incompetent. In addition to the reporter, one of the participants was on a civilian phone in Russia. The FSB or whomever does their signals intelligence got a real-time feed of intelligence, military operations, etc. The American pilots were put at risk, and Israeli spies were burned.
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Is there any evidence that iPhones have some security exploit that Apple + Three letter agencies can use?
Signal chairman is ex-CEO of Wikipedia.
Signal CEO estimated annual costs at $50MM.
Of courses it’s illegal, but the entire administration is operating as a criminal enterprise / an extension of all previous administrations, but in a way the most impressive disregard for rule of law we’ve seen.
Deleted Comment
Dead Comment
Deleted Comment
Security is far more than that and Signal does the 'far more'. Every independent security expert (I can think of) recommends Signal for security, including CISA, and now the CIA, NSC, etc.
One security pundit, I think Schneier, said that focusing on encryption is like putting a titanium door on your house and saying it's secure. Yes, nobody can damage that door, but there are windows, hinges, a lock to pick, the chimney, remote listening devices, tracking Internet usage, searching your garbage, ...
That said I’m not sure how leaders are supposed to quickly collaborate across time and space anymore. Not every location has a SCIF, but I suppose that’s the high bar we should hold.