To my surprise, what used to be called iWork has been my main "Office" replacement for years now. It's good enough, and it's free. I have switched over most of the non-technical people in my life to it, and they have no issues using it (except if they email a .pages document to a Windows user).
I especially enjoy Numbers and the way you can arrange multiple tables on a page. It's a different paradigm coming from Google Sheets or Excel and takes some getting used to, but to me it now makes more sense.
Of course, if I need something "done right", I'll drop down to Affinity, LaTeX, or InDesign. But I rarely have these needs nowadays.
A similar argument could be made for going all in on Google Docs/Sheets/Slides, but I feel queasy knowing that all of my data is in a free Google account, after reading some of the stories here about reaching Google support if something goes sideways.
I tried using Numbers across my Mac and iPad. It has some show stopping sync bugs there which result in it completely destroying documents. Then when you try and recover previous versions you get a lesson in Apple's commitment to things other than the facade on the front of their stuff: not a lot. The document versions thing sometimes doesn't even work and if it does it's so slow it's unusable. Probably backed with some low tier S3 stuff. Also the formula editor is painful at best.
Yeah. I was using numbers and it's not serious software.
I needed "true" or "false" in certain cells. When typing in a cell, sometimes it would capitalize it to TRUE and you would need to type "'true" to avoid that; and sometimes it randomly would accept typing "true". I simply couldn't figure out which would happen at any time.
The whole program is riddled with things like that.
Another common problem with Numbers is the low performance as row count grow and calculations complexity rise.
It can make some very pretty sheets but don't count on it if you have needs for something like pivot tables (which it doesn't have natively).
I think Apple is fucking everyone with those apps. They are not good enough for serious work but decent enough that people will use them; all to get a built-in lock in because of course it only runs on Macs...
I sometimes wish Claris Works 5 was still around. It was small and fast, did everything I actually needed when writing documents or letters and nothing I didn't need, and had a clean, uncluttered UI that made sense.
I also like the Pages/Numbers/Keynote suite. Of course, I'm not a heavy user of office apps at home, so large or complex documents aren't something I'm encountering day-to-day. If I needed to build such a beast, I would probably lean on the 'old standbys' like LaTeX and the like. LibreOffice is still a great platform and one I reach for if an oddly formatted document comes to me, but it's not something I'm using for crafting from scratch.
I would argue it is not just good enough but better than Office for normal consumers. For 99% of my usage and SMEs, Page is insanely better at layout. Numbers are much better for simple chat, formulas and comparison. Keynote.... well i haven't touched powerpoint for 20+ years so I dont know.
The only thing Office is better is when you need slightly complex formulas in Excel or some enterprise that has been using Excel for so long you need to use it to guarantee absolute 100% compatibility. For business Excel usage is still king. And will continue to be for at least another 10 - 15 years if not more.
Does it still has this fatal flaw of ignoring the format of the currently-opened file when you press ⌘S (which should be a common occurrence)? I work with OpenDocument formats and I hated iWork products for that behavior.
Have used Pages/Numbers/Keynote for years, alongside MS Word/Excel/Powerpoint, and always found the former to have better or nicer workflows for most tasks, and especially for page layouts. (Excel is however superior for very large or complex spreadsheets.) Highly underrated software.
I also use the iWork suite because that's what I have, and I despise Numbers
Pages and Keynote are fine but I can't for the life of me figure out how to do anything with Numbers. It looks beautiful and I want to like it but as you say it's (too) different from Excel, at least for me.
If I'm evaluating a potential application whose core functionality does not require external resources/servers (Dropbox for example) and they don't at a minimum offer some kind of perpetual fallback license (aka the Jetbrains annual subscription model), then I straight up bounce.
Here's what Microsoft won't tell you: If you buy standalone office and it is not allowed to phone home to Microsoft at least once a month, it stops working. This can happen if you use it on a disconnected computer or you just have a reverse firewall rule blocking microsoft domains.
I recently helped my sister upgrade from an extremely old MBP that couldn't upgrade past 10.13 to a pre-retina MBA that couldn't upgrade past macOS 12. Her ancient version of Office from the MBP wouldn't run on the MBA.
I was unable to figure out how to download/purchase a version of Office from MSFT that would run under macOS 12[1]. But in my searching, I ended up here:
So she's now running a volume-licensed version of Office 2019. MSFT seems to tolerate not necessarily legitimate volume licensing I guess as these have been floating around the internet forever.
That's honestly less than I would have expected. I still have an old copy of Microsoft Office 95 though I no longer have the hardware with which to run it. Ditto a copy of Adobe Photoshop CS6 which I believe was the final version before they went full on subscription.
I would also like to throw in Lightworks into the “very good Premiere alternatives”. If you are ok with exporting 720p, the free version is pretty capable but if you want higher export resolution it cost money.
It has a subscription option, but also a “buy outright” option, and it’s often on sale for half price for the permanent license, ends up costing around ~$200 and it works on Windows, Mac, and Linux.
I think it’s very good, though I am not a professional video editor by trade.
The biggest issue I had migrating as a Photoshop user since 1996 was the key bindings. But using the config files people shared online sorted that.
I'm not going to link to a specific one implying I'm recommending it, but a web search will show multiple.
One important gimp note is if you don't have 3.0+ already, get it. It finally has non-destructive editing, which is the main reason I had to keep using ps for for a long time.
I use Photopea which tries to mimic Photoshop UI and runs entirely on your browser. In fact, you can even install it as a Web App to run it offline. Pretty intuitive UI.
Paint.Net on Windows. Though on Windows there is Paint, that is less capable, but still no equivalent is on MacOS OOTB. (Also the drama around Paint is worth its own bashing).
I'd be interested in a similar basic tool as paint for mac and Linux (and possibly also for windows, if MS crappifies Paint, after it has tried to kill it earlier)
GIMP takes some time getting used to, but it's reliable, it will stick around and having used it for the past 20 years, I have issues switching to something else.
Naturally. I've rented an mini excavator in the past to dig up stumps for a one time job. It made sense more sense to rent it since it was for a one-time task, and purchasing the kubota would have cost more than 5k.
Given we're on HN news, I thought it was implied that I was referring mostly to the exhaustion at being faced with a perpetually increasing amount of rent-seeking in the form of SaaS.
Honestly, Resolve isn't that difficult, especially if you're OK with watching some tutorials to get used to it. It's certainly no more difficult than Premiere (for basic tasks, of course).
While I appreciate the sentiment, the world where you could use the same software for many years without updates is gone. These days developers have to invest significant time and effort into making sure the software just runs on the constantly updated operating systems and platforms — which costs money on an ongoing basis. Expecting your software to be updated regularly without paying regularly makes no sense.
So either you intend to run that exact binary that you downloaded (because that is the tool you bought), or the ongoing costs need to be covered somehow. Some companies do it through subscriptions and some play a game of "no, you don't have to update, but here is this new shiny (more bloated, too) version that we produce every 2 years, you can get it for $50 and OWN IT FOREVER (well, until the next shiny comes along in 2 years time". But it's a game, and the drawback is that there is incentive for bloating software instead of just maintaining it and fixing bugs.
It's simple. I buy a computer and buy the software. This software is installed on this computer and will will work unless the computer is broken. When you bought a CASIO keyboard you do not expect it to stop working after 3 years because it's installed newest updates.
Of course CASIO is not connected to the internet, it won't allow me to steer it with my fancy phone app. So maybe, just maybe, connecting everything to the internet is a simple mistake?
I bought my Lightroom when it was possible and am using with my camera. Once I buy a new camera, it won't be supported in lightroom. And I won't be able to upgrade it because now they moved to the subscription model. And I make photos every 5 months let's say... And lightroom them even less often
Reaper’s “i’m going to stop you from using the software for six seconds with a sufficiently obtrusive, non-arrogant, guilt tripping message about being non-free and you should really purchase a license but you can keep using it and download new versions even if you don’t purchase a license” is absolutely genius and a good sort-of counter example to your covering ongoing costs point. at least it highlights the problem for me i guess. (edit: actually, it’s the same problem i guess that you allude to in your last sentence).
i’ve used repear for years on and off without paying anything. new updates come out all the time. fixes, new features etc. (every time i open Reaper I hang my head in shame for not having bought a license).
repear isn’t a profit optimised entity. i gather it is software created and maintained primarily for people to use. licenses cover costs.
adobe/microsoft are profit optimised entities. people using the software is secondary to them making money off it. subscriptions are there to make them profit, not to cover their costs.
While I do recognize those concerns I'll note that it is still a viable model and not just for indie devs. Look to the DAW world (Ableton, FL Studio, Bitwig, Logic, etc.) if you're ever curious about building a sustainable business model around a flat pricing structure.
> the software just runs on the constantly updated operating systems and platforms
Don't forget that VMs exists.
I don't mind paying the upgrade price when I need the newer version, but that should be an informed decision. These day, subscriptions are actual gatekeepers to features where when you cancel it, you lose access to the software "pro" features.
I understand where you're going with performance and feature updates, but what about security updates? Those are often flaws that were present at time of shipping.
If I buy a physical lock that's found to be easily opened with a toothpick once it's in the mass market, I'd expect a recall and it to be fixed. With software, it's even easier to deploy a fix.
There's an expectation that purchased software is usable. A server that's connected to the internet that can be compromised easily is no longer usable. Firms selling software applications have an obligation to provide security updates for the life of the product.
> These days developers have to invest significant time and effort into making sure the software just runs on the constantly updated operating systems and platforms — which costs money on an ongoing basis.
The professionals who still use unstable platforms are forced to rent their tools, sharecropper style. What about professionals like me who made the leap to a stable platform? "Exact binary you downloaded" hasn't been in my toolbox for a long time now.
I don't know many people left who pay for their OS these days.
If you are actually using the software for important tasks, you don't update the OS. If you need something from a new OS, you buy another machine.
It's easy to keep your machines secured even if they are using a decades old OS. Businesses are still depending on a lot of old software and hardware, because it gets the job done with great efficiency.
A day later, as I'm reading the responses and looking at the negative points on my comment: I have to learn to avoid commenting in certain topics on HN. It seems that most people here want their software to be FREE, or at least sold for an inexpensive one-time fee, which I can understand. But they also have a certain model of running a software business in their minds, which is simply wrong.
My bet is that none of the commenters in this thread (full of mentions of sustainable development) actually run a full-time software business and make a living on it. I do. Which is why I understand why subscriptions make sense.
It's probably also related to the geopolitical context.
The US has threatened war at least against Canada, Europe, Panama and China, while clearly eyeing an alliance with Russia, which would in turn threaten many countries bordering Russia. That's a pretty large number of users who don't feel safe using US products anymore.
This could be checked by someone with access to country level sales numbers (or download numbers for libreoffice). Absent that, the recent price rise to pay for AI that most people don't need (since there are currently free of charge options elsewhere) is a more plausible explanation at a time when cost of living is a big topic in multiple countries.
That's a sensible response that seems to not be informed by recent buying trends in countries that are now grappling with sudden U.S. trade policy shifts. The sentiments are very strong, and need to be examined seriously by folks in the U.S. who will suddenly be feeling the negative effects. This is the world today, and it is taking a decidedly anti-U.S. tone for buyers and shoppers in other countries. To wit:
I am one of those annoying LaTeX people now, so my “word processor” ends up being tmux, NeoVim, and Nix, but I understand that that’s not for most people.
LibreOffice is honestly fine nowadays. I feel like Excel is probably a bit better than Calc, but Calc is still capable enough for most tasks.
The documents look decent enough, it’s easy to use, it’s reasonably fast, and you can’t really beat the price.
I have to admit that a reason that I haven’t touched it much is pretty silly: I like the icons for OpenOffice better. LibreOffice’s icons look too…childish? Hard to explain, and obviously subjective, but I wish I could get import OpenOffices icons into LibreOffice.
You know, I have really tried to like TeXmacs, and I just can't. It's kind of cool, but it really feels like an amateur product to me. The UI is hard to navigate, everything feels kind of clunky. The documents it produces look nice, so it's not "bad" or anything, but I found it kind of awkward to use.
As it stands, the compromise that I do is write Markdown and render it to LaTeX or XeLaTeX with Pandoc. Not claiming it's the "best" or anything, but the documents look nice to me and Markdown is easy to write.
I usually used InDesign for presentations on PC. Switching to Scribus now that I run a linux only office has been trivial.
Specific to LibreOffice - as an academic I've had to create a couple presentations in ppt format recently. It sucks, but it was a requirement of the conference. Anyway - LO Impress still has many of the annoyances of PowerPoint, but head to head it's actually an objectively better, faster program than PowerPoint.
I’d be grumble to go back to Libre Office which I used for years but it was the company standard. Mostly just use Google Workplace these days. )As does my former employer.) I find Google does a good job of including features most people need 95%+ of the time and does a good job of those.
Given the number of people who still right align texts with spaces or tab if they are professionals I think for mist people programs like Word and LibreOffice Writer are overkill
These people need an multimodal AI assistant that does geometrically correctly OCR of the page s screenshot and then determines the appropriate number of spaces and sizes for the spaces to accurately right-align the text.
I dare to say Word is so poorly designed that there are so many ways to screw up formatting... that bad behaviors (like right aligning text with spaces) are inevitable.
For 90% of documents, software like Word was a mistake and you should be using google docs level of detail or markdown or so. And for the rest you want publishing software, not Word :(.
99% of the time people want bullet points, headers, maybe a table or two. Using a word processor is very overkill and actually makes the simple stuff more arduous.
Markdown is the best too because:
1. Sending as plaintext is so convenient and it looks pretty decent
2. Most software (gitlab, jira, etc) accept markdown input so you can just copy-paste
I've commented as much before but what do people even use office for these days? Like I hear individuals complain about the prices and I'm just like I have not needed a real office suite in years. Google Docs has been enough to get by with for free for well over a decade.
Are you... creating and printing documents? Why? I haven't had a real need for a word processor since email was invented.
While I sometimes hangout with non-Engineering folks, I see following activities:
- preparing various letters, reports, audits, notices, terms/contracts etc. by modifying or using very specific templates and Office tools are very well entrenched for fixed templates
- Financial reports, analysis on excel(yes, most professionals are trained and feel comfortable there, same as how we feel good in terminal/console), building specific forms with constraints and checks, data sharing, special report of field data collection and audits, technical specifications/spec-sheets, quick complex calculations, think MS Excel as best candidate which everyone and there pet dog learned since elementary school
- Presentation, brochures, special fliers, quick reports, course reference/speech deck, lecture slides, product marketing/sales docs are mostly being handled by PowerPoint
Of course, we have numerous best-alternatives which can all replace these or “why not google docs”, but these people are trained on these specific ms office tools since dawn of civilization when people stopped cave painting and stone tablet based accounting in favor of computers. While we tech folks love to pickup and learn new tools, the other 99.99999% people see diminishing return adapting new tools. And lets be real, who wants to mess with the official template in some new tool that purchasing and procurement will not ever care about and scold the applicant back into the MS Office tools that already comes pre installed and licensed from their IT vendor?
Google docs are fine for anything non-private and stuff that can go to the cloud.
I usually use Google docs for stuff like language learning for convenience and libreoffice for financial spreadsheets, work related stuff, and anything I don't want to be snooped by Google systems.
Kids' school "teaches" it, meaning the kids have to memorize where to click to do X in various Microsoft products. So you're stuck with Microsoft if you want decent grades for your child.
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I especially enjoy Numbers and the way you can arrange multiple tables on a page. It's a different paradigm coming from Google Sheets or Excel and takes some getting used to, but to me it now makes more sense.
Of course, if I need something "done right", I'll drop down to Affinity, LaTeX, or InDesign. But I rarely have these needs nowadays.
A similar argument could be made for going all in on Google Docs/Sheets/Slides, but I feel queasy knowing that all of my data is in a free Google account, after reading some of the stories here about reaching Google support if something goes sideways.
TeXshop on the Mac is however rather nice.
I needed "true" or "false" in certain cells. When typing in a cell, sometimes it would capitalize it to TRUE and you would need to type "'true" to avoid that; and sometimes it randomly would accept typing "true". I simply couldn't figure out which would happen at any time.
The whole program is riddled with things like that.
It can make some very pretty sheets but don't count on it if you have needs for something like pivot tables (which it doesn't have natively).
I think Apple is fucking everyone with those apps. They are not good enough for serious work but decent enough that people will use them; all to get a built-in lock in because of course it only runs on Macs...
I would argue it is not just good enough but better than Office for normal consumers. For 99% of my usage and SMEs, Page is insanely better at layout. Numbers are much better for simple chat, formulas and comparison. Keynote.... well i haven't touched powerpoint for 20+ years so I dont know.
The only thing Office is better is when you need slightly complex formulas in Excel or some enterprise that has been using Excel for so long you need to use it to guarantee absolute 100% compatibility. For business Excel usage is still king. And will continue to be for at least another 10 - 15 years if not more.
Pages and Keynote are fine but I can't for the life of me figure out how to do anything with Numbers. It looks beautiful and I want to like it but as you say it's (too) different from Excel, at least for me.
Dead Comment
Examples of good alternatives
- Pixelmator > Photoshop
- Davinci Resolve > Premiere
- Reaper > Audition
I have no interest in renting my tools.
I suppose it always was.
https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/p/?LinkID=2113574&CLCID=0x10...
I was unable to figure out how to download/purchase a version of Office from MSFT that would run under macOS 12[1]. But in my searching, I ended up here:
https://github.com/alsyundawy/Microsoft-Office-For-MacOS
So she's now running a volume-licensed version of Office 2019. MSFT seems to tolerate not necessarily legitimate volume licensing I guess as these have been floating around the internet forever.
[1] e.g. https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/msoffice/forum/all/what-...
I have a very vague memory that is was $200 in the 2000s, so if accurate the price has gone down.
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It has a subscription option, but also a “buy outright” option, and it’s often on sale for half price for the permanent license, ends up costing around ~$200 and it works on Windows, Mac, and Linux.
I think it’s very good, though I am not a professional video editor by trade.
Nothing against GIMP, I just found it too hard to learn coming from photoshop.
I'm looking for a simple editor that can do color adjustments, crop/resize images, and add text.
https://krita.org/en/
Those are all pretty simple in GIMP though? I'm not doubting that they are different from Photoshop but how long could it take to learn the GIMP way?
I'm not going to link to a specific one implying I'm recommending it, but a web search will show multiple.
One important gimp note is if you don't have 3.0+ already, get it. It finally has non-destructive editing, which is the main reason I had to keep using ps for for a long time.
https://www.photopea.com/
I'd be interested in a similar basic tool as paint for mac and Linux (and possibly also for windows, if MS crappifies Paint, after it has tried to kill it earlier)
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Given we're on HN news, I thought it was implied that I was referring mostly to the exhaustion at being faced with a perpetually increasing amount of rent-seeking in the form of SaaS.
Eventually that guy/girl in Nebraska is going to look elsewhere.
While I appreciate the sentiment, the world where you could use the same software for many years without updates is gone. These days developers have to invest significant time and effort into making sure the software just runs on the constantly updated operating systems and platforms — which costs money on an ongoing basis. Expecting your software to be updated regularly without paying regularly makes no sense.
So either you intend to run that exact binary that you downloaded (because that is the tool you bought), or the ongoing costs need to be covered somehow. Some companies do it through subscriptions and some play a game of "no, you don't have to update, but here is this new shiny (more bloated, too) version that we produce every 2 years, you can get it for $50 and OWN IT FOREVER (well, until the next shiny comes along in 2 years time". But it's a game, and the drawback is that there is incentive for bloating software instead of just maintaining it and fixing bugs.
Of course CASIO is not connected to the internet, it won't allow me to steer it with my fancy phone app. So maybe, just maybe, connecting everything to the internet is a simple mistake?
I bought my Lightroom when it was possible and am using with my camera. Once I buy a new camera, it won't be supported in lightroom. And I won't be able to upgrade it because now they moved to the subscription model. And I make photos every 5 months let's say... And lightroom them even less often
i’ve used repear for years on and off without paying anything. new updates come out all the time. fixes, new features etc. (every time i open Reaper I hang my head in shame for not having bought a license).
repear isn’t a profit optimised entity. i gather it is software created and maintained primarily for people to use. licenses cover costs.
adobe/microsoft are profit optimised entities. people using the software is secondary to them making money off it. subscriptions are there to make them profit, not to cover their costs.
Don't forget that VMs exists.
I don't mind paying the upgrade price when I need the newer version, but that should be an informed decision. These day, subscriptions are actual gatekeepers to features where when you cancel it, you lose access to the software "pro" features.
If I buy a physical lock that's found to be easily opened with a toothpick once it's in the mass market, I'd expect a recall and it to be fixed. With software, it's even easier to deploy a fix.
There's an expectation that purchased software is usable. A server that's connected to the internet that can be compromised easily is no longer usable. Firms selling software applications have an obligation to provide security updates for the life of the product.
What’s different today?
I don't know many people left who pay for their OS these days.
It's easy to keep your machines secured even if they are using a decades old OS. Businesses are still depending on a lot of old software and hardware, because it gets the job done with great efficiency.
My bet is that none of the commenters in this thread (full of mentions of sustainable development) actually run a full-time software business and make a living on it. I do. Which is why I understand why subscriptions make sense.
The US has threatened war at least against Canada, Europe, Panama and China, while clearly eyeing an alliance with Russia, which would in turn threaten many countries bordering Russia. That's a pretty large number of users who don't feel safe using US products anymore.
https://www.newsweek.com/kentucky-bourbon-boss-bemoans-canad...
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn7vjlv7pzdo
https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/danish-viking-bloo...
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Dead Comment
LibreOffice is honestly fine nowadays. I feel like Excel is probably a bit better than Calc, but Calc is still capable enough for most tasks.
The documents look decent enough, it’s easy to use, it’s reasonably fast, and you can’t really beat the price.
I have to admit that a reason that I haven’t touched it much is pretty silly: I like the icons for OpenOffice better. LibreOffice’s icons look too…childish? Hard to explain, and obviously subjective, but I wish I could get import OpenOffices icons into LibreOffice.
I haven't tried it, but I think it's quite possible: https://documentation.libreoffice.org/assets/Uploads/Documen...
I might compile OpenOffice and see how well that stacks up nowadays.
As it stands, the compromise that I do is write Markdown and render it to LaTeX or XeLaTeX with Pandoc. Not claiming it's the "best" or anything, but the documents look nice to me and Markdown is easy to write.
Specific to LibreOffice - as an academic I've had to create a couple presentations in ppt format recently. It sucks, but it was a requirement of the conference. Anyway - LO Impress still has many of the annoyances of PowerPoint, but head to head it's actually an objectively better, faster program than PowerPoint.
For 90% of documents, software like Word was a mistake and you should be using google docs level of detail or markdown or so. And for the rest you want publishing software, not Word :(.
99% of the time people want bullet points, headers, maybe a table or two. Using a word processor is very overkill and actually makes the simple stuff more arduous.
Markdown is the best too because:
1. Sending as plaintext is so convenient and it looks pretty decent
2. Most software (gitlab, jira, etc) accept markdown input so you can just copy-paste
Are you... creating and printing documents? Why? I haven't had a real need for a word processor since email was invented.
- preparing various letters, reports, audits, notices, terms/contracts etc. by modifying or using very specific templates and Office tools are very well entrenched for fixed templates
- Financial reports, analysis on excel(yes, most professionals are trained and feel comfortable there, same as how we feel good in terminal/console), building specific forms with constraints and checks, data sharing, special report of field data collection and audits, technical specifications/spec-sheets, quick complex calculations, think MS Excel as best candidate which everyone and there pet dog learned since elementary school
- Presentation, brochures, special fliers, quick reports, course reference/speech deck, lecture slides, product marketing/sales docs are mostly being handled by PowerPoint
Of course, we have numerous best-alternatives which can all replace these or “why not google docs”, but these people are trained on these specific ms office tools since dawn of civilization when people stopped cave painting and stone tablet based accounting in favor of computers. While we tech folks love to pickup and learn new tools, the other 99.99999% people see diminishing return adapting new tools. And lets be real, who wants to mess with the official template in some new tool that purchasing and procurement will not ever care about and scold the applicant back into the MS Office tools that already comes pre installed and licensed from their IT vendor?
I usually use Google docs for stuff like language learning for convenience and libreoffice for financial spreadsheets, work related stuff, and anything I don't want to be snooped by Google systems.