I wrote a piece yesterday about the recent WordPress drama, including this bit. A fun thing I learned while digging into it is that Mullenweg himself requested that the Slack channel for this team be set up live on stage at WordCamp Europe in 2022. When disbanding the team, Mullenweg said, “today I learned that we have a sustainability team”. Maybe he forgot, but setting up this team was — at least in part — his idea.
“WordPress is in trouble” depends on what “WordPress” is.
WordPress the supply chain is currently dependent on wordpress.org. The community is working to route around this by decentralising distribution - see efforts such as AspirePress.
WordPress the software development project is dependent on wordpress.org, and there is no way to route around this unless Matt agrees to give up his DFL position or a fork is created.
WordPress the brand is being tarnished, mostly by Matt’s actions. wpdrama creates a riskier environment when assessing whether to use it as a CMS.
WordPress the community is being denigrated and diminished. Again, I think only a change in governance can resolve that.
> “WordPress is in trouble” depends on what “WordPress” is.
The one thing I’ve learned from all this drama is that all of the separated components of “WordPress”, from the .com to the .org and from the code to the hosting, were mostly superficial. Mullenweg appears to be equally in control of all of them and throws his weight around wherever it suits his agenda.
That's literally every rich tech CEO though. All of the FAGMAN companies use hundreds of open source projects internally, and even when they do contribute back they end up driving those projects in directions that benefit their bottom line above all else. Presumably they wouldn't contribute at all if if the dollar cost of an internally-developed equivalent wasn't even higher than contributing to OSS.
I don't have any stake in this drama since I haven't used WordPress for something like 13 years, buy to me this feels like crab bucket mentality, going after Mullenweg because he feels like a target that could actually be taken down as opposed to people like Zuck/Page/Brin/Nadella/etc who are truly untouchable. The level of vitriol just seems unreasonably high for something that isn't really that big of a deal.
WordPress and Mullenweg are one and the same, despite all of the superficial distinctions and organizations. He controls it all.
There is no viable way to separate without forking the project and using a different name. Mullenweg is already trying to make like difficult for anyone he suspects might be thinking about forking, so anyone leading a fork has to assume that Mullenweg is going to make their life hell. He’s not afraid of dumping money into lawsuits to crush people, so forking WP is a scary proposition.
Matt controls the WordPress foundation, owns and operates wordpress.org, is CEO of Automattic, and votes 84% of its stock (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42657150). AFAICS, there's no one who has the means to remove him.
or may be typical leaders have a better vision of what "sustainability" means.
"Hire great engineers that have sustainability in their bones"
Actual implementation by the grifters : Hire other grifters with Sustainability in their resume, whose only job is to act as gatekeepers with psuedo-science garbage and make this team as big as the Engineering Team.
It's perfectly fine for the leader to look at the implementation and say "what's this fucking bullshit and cut everything".
These concepts are of course completely alien to leader/rich-hating HN
I didn't really understand what a "WP Sustainability Team" was, so I clicked the link to the linked website in this story. I was surprised that it was in fact an initiative to do things like "have a dashboard that shows the climate impact of publishing" and "promote static publishing over..." I assume because serving this content (under someone's model) uses less electricity?
Hey - if this is important to you, by all means pursue this direction, but I would cut this sort of initiative too.
So then nothing was actually cut and these weird people who are super passionate about the climate impact of WordPress of all things can continue to do.. whatever it was they were doing, for free as they were before? If the issue is having a slack channel in the WordPress org, they can just make their own discord server. No big deal.
I found it kinda silly at first, like how would WP actually contribute to a reduction in climate change. But I think at the scale that WP is deployed at (millions upon millions of sites), changing something like static output by default could contribute to a non-negligable reduction in electricity spent on hosting.
I disagree in principle. You can call it a pro-environment initiative or you can call it just... promoting good engineering. Making code more efficient benefits literally everyone from the people making it to the people using it to the planet upon which it is used, and who's resources it is dependent on. I wish efficiency was a more prioritized thing in basically every facet of the modern tech industry which, at present, is addicted to an absolutely stressful number of libraries that cause nearly every prominent tech product to be ludicrously bloated.
Like, it's incredibly irritating to me that mobile browsers are practically unusable, not because mobile design isn't ubiquitous, but because every website now makes my phone hot because it's running 800 MB of fucking JavaScript to render text.
LLMs use about 1000X the resources of the most poorly designed WP site. The best thing that the WP Sustainability Team can do is retask itself to higher impact problems.
For every one LLM user, there are hundreds if not thousands of people visiting WordPress sites. WordPress is unimaginably ubiquitous. When you're that popular, making your software more energy efficient has an actual, real life impact (even if other things are using lots of energy). In aggregate it's still a massive amount of energy.
"Sustainability" is a garbage buzzword that at best means money being wasted on people writing pointless reports and usually means pushing a far left agenda.
> Veteran tech journalist Kara Swisher has described Matt Mullenweg’s move to shut down WordPress’s sustainability team as “bizarrely heinous behavior.”
Is it bizarrely heinous? Or is it just kind of bad? I enjoy WordPress drama, and run a couple of lazy WordPress services, but I don't think that this is actually worth all the spilt ink and tears, relative to all the other injustices a person might choose to concern themselves with.
It sounds like you actually work for a living and aim to conduct your business professionally, which is probably why you don't understand all these people who aren't doing either of those things.
I don't know man, I feel like the entire planet has gone mad over the course of about 15 years. Who am I supposed to root for? The executives who throw public tantrums and behave like children? Or the activists who try to turn the company into a vehicle for whatever the latest left wing cause is?
How about someone in that organization gets back to actually building some good fucking software? Is there a connection between all the horsing around these people do and the fact that after 5+ years of development Gutenberg is still kind of a pile of crap? I feel like not so long ago in history it would have been obvious to everyone that the answer is yes, work is about actually working and producing things. But now everybody's primary job is apparently to wail on Twitter instead of putting butt in seat for 8 hours a day, writing code, and on a good day, maybe figuring out how to get a little better at it. Idk man. Whatever this world is I don't really want any part of it anymore, I want to switch to the sane timeline.
I was more struck by the fact that the author thinks anyone would or should care what some random tech journalist thinks about something. Person has opinions, news at eleven.
I don't really think you believe that journalism shouldn't exist or that you don't know journalism includes opinion and commentary, but I don't know why this is controversial enough to trigger that response. What's funny, though, is that the trite "news at 11" catchphrase is very much also invoking traditional journalism.
> The website Plugin Vulnerabilities catches an interesting detail: the language related to hosting forked premium plugins on wordpress.org has been modified, starting on the same day that the ACF takeover happened.
I wonder if Matty boy saw my comment, on the post here about the ACF takeover, pointing out the obvious hypocrisy, lol.
In all seriousness, I wonder if Matt has a brain tumor. His behavior has gone from merely sociopathic to outright despotic, appearing both irrational and self-destructive.
Certainly, he has single-handedly turned the entire WP ecosystem into a toxic cesspool. I feel sorry for everyone that he seems to have threatened, bullied, or outright extorted. Anyone aware of these shenanigans would be wise to steer clear of the entire mess until he is out of the picture.
1. Is Mullenweg's recent behavior as bad as it seems to those of us not very familiar with WordPress?
2. If the behavior is as bad as it seems... Did Mullenweg always behave like this? (Like, hints of it, even if the circumstances at the time meant it wasn't very negative?) Or did it increase slowly over time, or change rather abruptly?
I think a national-politics-grade PR attack campaign is unlikely. So, if it wasn't that, I'm wondering whether the current character was always there, or there was some gradual or punctuated mental health change. That can often be helped and healed.
Separately, in any case, the larger WordPress community will hopefully realize the risks of dictators and kingdoms, and move to be more resilient. And not make the same mistake yet again, just with a new overlord, like we often do in tech consumption (and in human history, for that matter).
I think it started with Tumblr, perhaps behind the scenes. He then did some stupid things under pressure and said some highly inappropriate things in response to criticism.
Like others who faced pushback from certain communities, he decided to double down on the arrogance and insensitivity. Unlike others, he doesn't have the charisma, goodwill, or video podcast to pull it off.
Seeing his posts here, it would appear that his behavior is indeed "as bad as it seems". A serial poster who cannot seem to disengage, took everything personally, and refused to try to understand other perspectives.
Matt, literally (he turned 21 then), came of age in the 2004-2006 Silicon Valley climate of the post-Bubble "Trümmerfrauen" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tr%C3%BCmmerfrau) movements that brought us things such as DHH and Rails, Matt and WordPress, Andreessen being himself, and others, all of which are now considered "problematic."
I don't think Matt has changed. The climate these projects operate in, has. To some it's an eggshell walk, to others a game of signaling the right virtues while acting against them in secret, and to some a chance to achieve relevancy or dominance. And for all of them, there's a day of reckoning. 2005s proclivities have no similarities to 2025 dogma, and why should they. Neither did 2005 have any with 1985. Feel old, yet?
Matt's Matt. That Matt was what was needed to kick a floundering piece of software (P2) into the kind of trajectory that helped transform it into the absolute unit of a social and communications portfolio, Automattic is today.
That kind of Matt is a dinosaur in 2025. As were 1985 coders and founders in 2005. Heck, 2005 didn't look too kindly upon 1999 Silicon Valley mindsets.
I guess Matt's "problem" is not, that he has changed. Matt's difficulty is, that he hasn't, and that 2025 is nothing like 2005. And, like DHH or Andreessen or Brendan Eich back in 2014, that can ... hurt. I'm too old to care, but I'd presume today's "golden child" will be a very problematic person in 2045, unless they learn to change or hide behind signals.
I took a 12 years hiatus from WP and just went back into actively using it since a couple of weeks now.
The shift went clearly into massive plugins that frees you from all the grunt work that was necessary 10+ years ago.
To me as someone who once wrote plugins on my own, had to develop themes totally by hand using the infamous WP loop etc. this is like going from command line to drag and drop UI.
Sounds like he just created a Slack channel where people could chit-chat about "sustainability" much like they chat about football or ESports.
Then he found out these guys actually spend all their working lives implementing plugins that do little more than display "Your site needed 0.04663kg of CO2 to run this year" next to a green leaf.
Seeing how they spent 1,5 years on this and have little more to show than "concepts of a plan" he was right to shut this down.
Readit News
https://anderegg.ca/2025/01/11/wordpress-is-in-trouble
WordPress the supply chain is currently dependent on wordpress.org. The community is working to route around this by decentralising distribution - see efforts such as AspirePress.
WordPress the software development project is dependent on wordpress.org, and there is no way to route around this unless Matt agrees to give up his DFL position or a fork is created.
WordPress the brand is being tarnished, mostly by Matt’s actions. wpdrama creates a riskier environment when assessing whether to use it as a CMS.
WordPress the community is being denigrated and diminished. Again, I think only a change in governance can resolve that.
The one thing I’ve learned from all this drama is that all of the separated components of “WordPress”, from the .com to the .org and from the code to the hosting, were mostly superficial. Mullenweg appears to be equally in control of all of them and throws his weight around wherever it suits his agenda.
I don't have any stake in this drama since I haven't used WordPress for something like 13 years, buy to me this feels like crab bucket mentality, going after Mullenweg because he feels like a target that could actually be taken down as opposed to people like Zuck/Page/Brin/Nadella/etc who are truly untouchable. The level of vitriol just seems unreasonably high for something that isn't really that big of a deal.
I cannot understand how he is the guy in charge of all of this.
There is no viable way to separate without forking the project and using a different name. Mullenweg is already trying to make like difficult for anyone he suspects might be thinking about forking, so anyone leading a fork has to assume that Mullenweg is going to make their life hell. He’s not afraid of dumping money into lawsuits to crush people, so forking WP is a scary proposition.
“Why did you do this thing?”
“Sir, you told us to.”
“Don’t argue with me. You’re fired”
"Hire great engineers that have sustainability in their bones"
Actual implementation by the grifters : Hire other grifters with Sustainability in their resume, whose only job is to act as gatekeepers with psuedo-science garbage and make this team as big as the Engineering Team.
It's perfectly fine for the leader to look at the implementation and say "what's this fucking bullshit and cut everything".
These concepts are of course completely alien to leader/rich-hating HN
Hey - if this is important to you, by all means pursue this direction, but I would cut this sort of initiative too.
This was costing Matt nothing. Zero.
The work was being done, for free, by passionate people.
These were salaried employees working on the sustainability team, correct? If not, how could Mullenweg shut it down?
The person leading it stepped down. Matt then stopped the initiative presumably because it didn't seem worth picking someone new.
Like, it's incredibly irritating to me that mobile browsers are practically unusable, not because mobile design isn't ubiquitous, but because every website now makes my phone hot because it's running 800 MB of fucking JavaScript to render text.
whatabout: retasking yourself on that issue instead of just commenting?
You still don't.
Is it bizarrely heinous? Or is it just kind of bad? I enjoy WordPress drama, and run a couple of lazy WordPress services, but I don't think that this is actually worth all the spilt ink and tears, relative to all the other injustices a person might choose to concern themselves with.
Her M.O. is to take a 'hot-button' issue and simply add fuel to the fire with zero nuance or in-depth analysis.
Not related, see the entire ReCode fiasco.
I don't know man, I feel like the entire planet has gone mad over the course of about 15 years. Who am I supposed to root for? The executives who throw public tantrums and behave like children? Or the activists who try to turn the company into a vehicle for whatever the latest left wing cause is?
How about someone in that organization gets back to actually building some good fucking software? Is there a connection between all the horsing around these people do and the fact that after 5+ years of development Gutenberg is still kind of a pile of crap? I feel like not so long ago in history it would have been obvious to everyone that the answer is yes, work is about actually working and producing things. But now everybody's primary job is apparently to wail on Twitter instead of putting butt in seat for 8 hours a day, writing code, and on a good day, maybe figuring out how to get a little better at it. Idk man. Whatever this world is I don't really want any part of it anymore, I want to switch to the sane timeline.
Dead Comment
Dead Comment
Again, I hold no sympathy for Silver Lake, but I hope they fuck him up good.
This is crazy if true.
I wonder if Matty boy saw my comment, on the post here about the ACF takeover, pointing out the obvious hypocrisy, lol.
Certainly, he has single-handedly turned the entire WP ecosystem into a toxic cesspool. I feel sorry for everyone that he seems to have threatened, bullied, or outright extorted. Anyone aware of these shenanigans would be wise to steer clear of the entire mess until he is out of the picture.
2. If the behavior is as bad as it seems... Did Mullenweg always behave like this? (Like, hints of it, even if the circumstances at the time meant it wasn't very negative?) Or did it increase slowly over time, or change rather abruptly?
I think a national-politics-grade PR attack campaign is unlikely. So, if it wasn't that, I'm wondering whether the current character was always there, or there was some gradual or punctuated mental health change. That can often be helped and healed.
Separately, in any case, the larger WordPress community will hopefully realize the risks of dictators and kingdoms, and move to be more resilient. And not make the same mistake yet again, just with a new overlord, like we often do in tech consumption (and in human history, for that matter).
Like others who faced pushback from certain communities, he decided to double down on the arrogance and insensitivity. Unlike others, he doesn't have the charisma, goodwill, or video podcast to pull it off.
Matt, literally (he turned 21 then), came of age in the 2004-2006 Silicon Valley climate of the post-Bubble "Trümmerfrauen" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tr%C3%BCmmerfrau) movements that brought us things such as DHH and Rails, Matt and WordPress, Andreessen being himself, and others, all of which are now considered "problematic."
I don't think Matt has changed. The climate these projects operate in, has. To some it's an eggshell walk, to others a game of signaling the right virtues while acting against them in secret, and to some a chance to achieve relevancy or dominance. And for all of them, there's a day of reckoning. 2005s proclivities have no similarities to 2025 dogma, and why should they. Neither did 2005 have any with 1985. Feel old, yet?
Matt's Matt. That Matt was what was needed to kick a floundering piece of software (P2) into the kind of trajectory that helped transform it into the absolute unit of a social and communications portfolio, Automattic is today.
That kind of Matt is a dinosaur in 2025. As were 1985 coders and founders in 2005. Heck, 2005 didn't look too kindly upon 1999 Silicon Valley mindsets.
I guess Matt's "problem" is not, that he has changed. Matt's difficulty is, that he hasn't, and that 2025 is nothing like 2005. And, like DHH or Andreessen or Brendan Eich back in 2014, that can ... hurt. I'm too old to care, but I'd presume today's "golden child" will be a very problematic person in 2045, unless they learn to change or hide behind signals.
> I'd presume today's "golden child" will be a very problematic person in 2045, unless they learn to change or hide behind signals.
It's probably worth pointing out that most people do actually grow up and change with the times.
When it comes to Mullenweg, I am always impressed that there is often some worse behaviour mentioned in the article...
I took a 12 years hiatus from WP and just went back into actively using it since a couple of weeks now.
The shift went clearly into massive plugins that frees you from all the grunt work that was necessary 10+ years ago.
To me as someone who once wrote plugins on my own, had to develop themes totally by hand using the infamous WP loop etc. this is like going from command line to drag and drop UI.
WP is a OS and Divi, ThriveTheme etc. took over.
I like it, it saves a ton of time.
Is like Dreamweaver but you have to run Dreamweaver all the time your site has visitors and an instance of Dreamweaver for each visitor.
Then he found out these guys actually spend all their working lives implementing plugins that do little more than display "Your site needed 0.04663kg of CO2 to run this year" next to a green leaf.
Seeing how they spent 1,5 years on this and have little more to show than "concepts of a plan" he was right to shut this down.
These were volunteers.
> Seeing how they spent 1,5 years
They didn't.
> he was right to shut this down.
Ignorance is a choice.