ARMv9.0 is very similar to ARMv8.5 (9.0 supersets 8.5 with SVE2, TME, TLA, and CCA), so it's not a massive deal. SME implies v8.7 which is basically identical to v9.2 except for those couple extensions previously mentioned.
I wonder if there is licensing at play though. Apple may have gotten a really great licensing deal on ARMv8 that they wouldn't be offered for ARMv9.
From what I’ve read previously, Apple has a special licensing deal already as they were part of founding Arm, although I don’t know if there’s any details on exactly how that works.
Does anyone have insight into why arm CPU vendors seem so hesitant about implementing SVE2? ~They seem~ *Apple seems to have no issue with SSVE2 or SME.
Edit: Only Apple has implemented SSVE and SME I think.
My guess is that Apple is simply not interested in some of the ARMv9 features. They are not eager to implement SVE and the se Ure virtualization features are probably not that relevant to them.
I do find it amusing that journalists never go beyond Twitter for discussion on this because this was all being confirmed on Mastodon days before any of the posts in the article
SME and streaming SVE. In fact I was going to include “…and nobody seems to have good evidence of ARMv9 support” but I figured my comment was enough as it was ;)
Thing is, normal people don’t really like interacting with the kind of person that would have jumped over to Mastodon. Zeal is insufferable most of the time.
Well, unfortunately, the kind of person who is an expert on SME is on Mastodon. So if you're writing an article on it, you should probably go to them instead of tech influencers who recycle content on Twitter.
I’m fairly certain that staying on (or joining) Twitter shows just about the same amount of “zeal” as leaving for Mastodon/BlueSky/Threads. Or put another way, I find people on Twitter to be insufferable.
It’s not a secret that a large portion of actually technical people (not tech influencers) left Twitter for Mastodon. So the people on Twitter may be more polished turds but are turds nonetheless.
Full disclosure: I still use my Twitter for customer support because that’s all it’s good for at this point IMHO. I also don’t regularly read mastodon but it’s where the people I care about are and when I post (rarely) that’s where I do it.
ARM really could've come up with better numbering / identification. I suppose it's ARM, emphasis on v, then 9, to differentiate it from ARM9, such as ARM9E-S?
This is more like supporting AVX512 than a whole separate architecture. If you have to target both old and new devices from one binary, you do a runtime feature check and call the corresponding code.
That is certainly more code, but not double. You only need it for the parts of the code that are both (a) bottlenecks worth optimizing and (b) actually benefit by using the new instructions.
ARMv9 is just ARMv8.5 with 4 extra extensions. It's not a complete overhaul like the ARMv7 to ARMv8 change was.
It's more comparable to x86 chips with AVX-512 and chips without AVX-512. 99% of your code is the same, but the compiler will generate SSE, AVX, and AVX-512 variants and choose the correct one based on the CPU.
Are there any extensions that ARMv9 is required to have? I'm looking through the reference manuals and those 4 extra extensions are all marked as "OPTIONAL" for ARMv9.
Since the move to Apple Silicon you are realistically never more than 12-18 months away from a new chip generation in a MacBook. An M1 is still plenty good for the vast majority of workloads, especially if it's an M1 Pro/Max/Ultra.
Actually probably the best thing to do is wait until the M4 machines launch then bag a good deal on a clearance M3.
That’s actually a nice side effect of all the *rumors pages. The rumors of future products keep me of buying the current products. I keep on using my previous products while saving money and planet and being excited about what future holds.
> The rumors of future products keep me of buying the current products.
For myself, I like to think of it as applied procrastination. I could buy that new thing I want today.. but something better will come along in time, so I can afford to put it off a while longer yet..
> The rumors of future products keep me of buying the current products.
Spot on!
Back in the nineties, Intel managed to push competing RISC architectures (UltraSparc, MIPS, DEC Alpha, PowerPC) out of the market using nothing but promises that Itanium was going to blow them all out of the water.
And apparently Apple is okay with procrastinating and cannibalizing current sales of M1, 2, 3 if it helps prevent some Snapdragon (or Ampere) sales.
> The rumors of future products keep me of buying the current products.
You may have heard of the 5-minute rule - "Will doing this take me less than 5 minutes? If the answer is yes, do it now." An adaption of that to reduce impulse purchases is - "Do I really need this product right now? If the answer is no, don't buy it."
And on the flip side I am generally hesitant to buy first-release Apple hardware. Over the 20 years I've been buying Apple kit I've generally found it to be exceptionally robust but newly released hardware has had enough bugs (either hardware or OS) that I just sit back and let other users find the issues first. But I do simultaneously have the same issue: if WWDC is coming up within a month or two I'm not going to be buying any hardware because there's a good chance that something new will be released or the hardware I was going to buy is going to get a refresh or a price drop.
I do this technique too, and it's a great time for it. The OLED screen on the new iPad signals that Apple devices are moving to a better panel. If you've been waiting for the right time to move off an Intel Mac and onto a SoC Mac, it's now. Pick up a refurbished M2 MacBook. They're in the sweet spot for support, power, and cost.
The next one will probably have an OLED screen; so if you wait til then, your refurb M1/2/3 will be on Apple's short list of devices they don't want to support. (And you might have panel FOMO.) Or you'll have to pay the premium price for the latest model.
These machines are great. I still use my 2015 rMBP as a secondary. It's a little slow now but a couple years ago I was still running Solidworks (in Bootcamp) on it with minimal issues.
The way to exit that loop is to convince yourself that the next one will bring a truly lasting difference. Which is why I'm still waiting for GDDR7 GPUs with my 4GB RX 480.
I just bought a second hand M2 Air in perfect condition and it feels faster than my M1 Max in a really beautiful body for travel. I’m not certain it matters that much anymore to be honest. What are you using it for?
So if you can 'limp' along towards the autumn/winter/Christmas, then it's probably worth the wait to get the M4 (or pickup an M3 when the price presumably drops to clear inventory).
I just bought a refurbished 16in M3 pro, no regrets at all. There's always a new one around the corner, it's really just about whether your setup achieves what you need it to.
Look at real world differences between M2 and M3, it's not a massive jump at all.
I do cross platform app development and the machine is excellent for that. Glad to have it now rather than waiting months for a slightly better system
Readit News
I wonder if there is licensing at play though. Apple may have gotten a really great licensing deal on ARMv8 that they wouldn't be offered for ARMv9.
Edit: Only Apple has implemented SSVE and SME I think.
It’s not a secret that a large portion of actually technical people (not tech influencers) left Twitter for Mastodon. So the people on Twitter may be more polished turds but are turds nonetheless.
Full disclosure: I still use my Twitter for customer support because that’s all it’s good for at this point IMHO. I also don’t regularly read mastodon but it’s where the people I care about are and when I post (rarely) that’s where I do it.
Deleted Comment
That is certainly more code, but not double. You only need it for the parts of the code that are both (a) bottlenecks worth optimizing and (b) actually benefit by using the new instructions.
It's more comparable to x86 chips with AVX-512 and chips without AVX-512. 99% of your code is the same, but the compiler will generate SSE, AVX, and AVX-512 variants and choose the correct one based on the CPU.
If you're already supporting 2 arch it will only increase by 50 percent to support a 3rd ;-)
What's so newsworthy about this?
Actually probably the best thing to do is wait until the M4 machines launch then bag a good deal on a clearance M3.
For myself, I like to think of it as applied procrastination. I could buy that new thing I want today.. but something better will come along in time, so I can afford to put it off a while longer yet..
Spot on!
Back in the nineties, Intel managed to push competing RISC architectures (UltraSparc, MIPS, DEC Alpha, PowerPC) out of the market using nothing but promises that Itanium was going to blow them all out of the water.
And apparently Apple is okay with procrastinating and cannibalizing current sales of M1, 2, 3 if it helps prevent some Snapdragon (or Ampere) sales.
You may have heard of the 5-minute rule - "Will doing this take me less than 5 minutes? If the answer is yes, do it now." An adaption of that to reduce impulse purchases is - "Do I really need this product right now? If the answer is no, don't buy it."
The next one will probably have an OLED screen; so if you wait til then, your refurb M1/2/3 will be on Apple's short list of devices they don't want to support. (And you might have panel FOMO.) Or you'll have to pay the premium price for the latest model.
It is much, much faster, silent, and I use it for days without power. Editing 4K video is not just possible, it is a non event.
I’ll buy a little later. I’ll buy a little later!
So frustrating.
[1]: https://www.macrumors.com/2024/05/23/18-8-inch-foldable-macb...
It would require the biggest UI redesign in the history of the company to ensure every input control is at least a centimetre away from anything else.
And would require every Mac developer to absorb the cost for major updates to their apps as well.
This would almost certainly be an iPad.
In recent years the MBP line has been updated towards the end of the year (Oct/Nov) or early (Jan):
* https://buyersguide.macrumors.com/#MacBook_Pro_16
So if you can 'limp' along towards the autumn/winter/Christmas, then it's probably worth the wait to get the M4 (or pickup an M3 when the price presumably drops to clear inventory).
Look at real world differences between M2 and M3, it's not a massive jump at all.
I do cross platform app development and the machine is excellent for that. Glad to have it now rather than waiting months for a slightly better system