The HTML title starts "The Landlord-Friendly...". It really depends on the landlord.
I like the idea of solar, and of backups, and of figuring out how to live comfortably in rentals, and of being mobile, but...
I'm pretty sure that my own real-life landlord would flip out, if he came to the door, and saw that charger box bolted to the wall, and the bare terminals of an Alibaba special "SCREMOWER" large lithium battery pack.
Before he even saw that cabling. Which I think (with those lengths, and tacked up like that) would be an electrical code violation here.
Would insurance even cover a fire?
Also, if there's later an expensive roof leak, there'd be questions about whether it had been caused by installation of the panels (even though no holes were drilled). And is there a liability risk if the panel gets blown off.
And would insurance cover any of that?
Were I in landlord's position myself, I'd have much of the same concerns.
As a landlord, I would not approve of this tomfoolery in any of my buildings.
Safety hazards I see include: Solar panels on the roof that aren’t bolted dow; I don’t care what wind speed they’re rated for. Wires running from them to the inside of the house not in conduit and not secured. A high energy battery pack not NRTL listed. Extension cords draped through the house permanently installed (within the expansive definition of permanently installed used by the NEC)
In addition running the wires in through a cracked window creates an unacceptable risk of water damage.
That said, it’s a cool project. Just do this in a barn you own not a house I own.
My question for you if you are a landlord at what price would a battery and solar system would make it profitable for you to install and then sell the electricity to the tenants. With the slowdown in ev cars as well as battery production increases as well as steep fall in solar wafer prices I think we are likely to see a big surge in home battery installations in the next 2-3 years.
While the article probably doesn’t use UL listed equipment, I’ve found that equipment exists that does such as eg4. They run 48v which makes it legal in addition to being Ul listed. It’s typically the installation between solar panels and power inverter/converter that needs to be up to code.
> Rent-seeking is the act of growing one's existing wealth by manipulating the social or political environment without creating new wealth. Rent-seeking activities have negative effects on the rest of society.
If you stop being a parasite perhaps one could afford a barn.
"Just do this in a barn you own not a house I own."
Someday we'll wonder why we thought it was a good idea to make the need for shelter into an investment vehicle. Until then, I hope people use your properties as they see fit.
The extension cord "alternate electricity system" as they call it seems particularly harrowing. You had better make sure that you know what the load rating is on each of those cords and what they are going to be supplying (or better yet, just don't do this). Unlike household wiring, there will be no breakers.
The "load rating" on the cords exceeds the total power delivery capability of the system. It has its own circuit breakers.
The manufacturers are well aware of risks, for liability reasons if nothing else, and have contained them in the uniform-electrical-code mandated manner. The system is no more risky than any other plugged-in appliance. We don't need to invent problems. Extension cords are just extension cords.
I always thought any concentration of power represents an opportunity for things to go off the rails; do you happen to have a citation for "not a fire hazard" that I could read up on?
That's actually one of my bigger concerns with these solar into battery stunts is where to place such a massive array of batteries such that if something caught fire it wouldn't take out my roof or other flamable stuff
Yeah, I spent the money on good quality 12/3 extension cords that can safely pull more power than the circuit will deliver and have been quite happy with them. Being able to run a space heater off them is really nice in the winter.
Looking at the video, his apartments wiring probably dates to the 50’s or so. Which would be the norm here. Hard to do worse.
Most landlords here are pretty low maintenance (both ways) as long as you pay on time and willing to bend. Did not blink an eye when I asked to go roof WISP and drilled my own hole next to the cable line. No roof penetration so they didn’t care.
I’m thinking of asking about a weighted panel to cover the 4-9pm PG&E quadruple pricing via a LFP bank.
> Would insurance even cover a fire? ... And would insurance cover any of that? (leaks, etc.)
Yes. Insurance is a contract, and the standard insurance contracts used by nearly all insurers do not contain exclusions for permits, code violations, or things like this. They would absolutely not renew you after a loss caused by something like this, and would probably report the loss to the industry databases. Insurance companies will often try to impose liability on other parties when losses happen, but they don't sue their own customer, as the whole point of an insurance contract is that they are assuming liability for loss in exchange for your premium. (If you believe this to be otherwise, try to find a recorded instance of an insurer denying coverage for code violations or un-permitted work. I've never been able to do so, and would be very interested in reading the case study.)
If you want to be sure, just ask your insurer for a copy of your contact, and read it. They aren't that complex.
The haphazard cabling and use of potentially subpar cables to deliver power is a fire waiting to happen.
I wouldn’t condone this or any variation thereof that violates the NEC, a lot of liability is being assumed by doing this.
I realize not everyone can afford a new home but with the proper knowledge and tools you can make electrical changes to achieve your goals that can be reversed on move out.
I might have previously done things against my landlords wishes but it was done - and removed - professionally. The other option is to talk to your landlord and do it right, making it permanent upon your separation from the property.
Years ago I fantasized about making a transformer designed to pass through a window. One coil on the outside, one on the inside. Unfortunately I don’t think you can split the core of a transformer and still get anywhere near the efficiency
Also more recently I learned that these things can vibrate. Which would not be good for a window.
You’d be better off passing a wire ribbon around the sash.
Yeah at certain points I thought they were trolling.
But still inspired me to perhaps to something like this that bypasses the meter and the city grid, but just a little more limited in scope than running duplicate wiring everywhere.
Wow... This should be added to the FAQ's under "Whats the catch?": At least a dozen code violations that risks burning down your/your landlord's property, serious injury or worse - loss of life - and opens yourself to VERY large liabilities.
A more proper way to do this would be to have one self contained outdoor box rated to contain high energy batteries, have your inverter and PDU as part of that package and then plug your the panels to that. When you have a power outage go out and grab your backup battery box. This eliminates the bulk of the issues.
Although, that raises the obvious solution that you could just spend a bit more money and get one of those self contained "battery generators", which have been properly engineered and designed, and are also pretty portable.
Another thing I would add is adding some sandbags to the solar panels so that they don't fly off the roof in a high wind scenario. Theres a reason why when doing a rooftop installation code will specify this if not being directly bolted. (Technically a structural engineer will need to do a load calculation, but for this size of install the risks are minimal compared to the risks inherent in the rest of the system)
All of the code/safety/landlord issues notwithstanding, the price is pretty incredible. If I plug my address into the PVWatts calculator, given the insane price increases from PG&E over the past few years, the payback period is one year. Beyond the fantastic economics, you're getting a decent emergency backup system that should cover at least your fridge, lights, and various electronics.
Tangent: can anybody recommend a hybrid invertor that can prioritize solar over grid _without also_ prioritizing battery over grid when solar isn't available?
Context: I have a solar + battery system for backup power purposes. We have long enough grid outages every so often that make it worthwhile, and I need to keep the batteries charged in preparation for those outages. However, 98% of the time the batteries are charged and the solar power is just being wasted (there is no grid tie back here); I'd like to actually use it. The invertor (which is cheap chinese) can prioritize "renewable over grid" and thus use the solar during the day, but in this mode it then uses the batteries at night, and recharges them from grid when it runs them down; this means lots of battery cycles and also potential for backup to be foiled if the grid goes down at the wrong time.
I have a similar Growatt from siganture solar. I'm pretty sure they're made by the same manufacturer as EG4. The cheaper one can do it, in a solar > utility > battery priority mode.
But depending on your solar panel and consistent power draw, I'd maybe use the solar > battery > utility mode. It'll let you set a point to switch from battery to utility, the highest at 95%. That way when your usage is below your solar generation, you can still use the solar to charge the battery.
A bit more wear and tear on the battery, but even less solar wasted. Assuming you can handle the batteries only being at 95% if you have an outage. If your usage is less than your solar generation, could even set it lower.
I've been looking at something similar but different. My grid is fine, but I want to be able to use the batteries based on my time-of-use plan prices. I have less solar panels, but would want to charge my battery using grid power when prices are lower.
Seconded. The thing I’m using here is basically an EG4 knock off and I copied the wiring from the Will Prowse EG4 3000W mobile solar power guide (linked under how to) - which makes me think it’s the same board inside.
Sunsynk will give you what you want. You can define a minimum battery level, after which it'll switch to grid if there is not enough solar to supply the load. If there is no grid then It'll continue to use battery until a final emergency cut-off that shuts the whole system down.
The battery setting can be configured on a timer, so you can have different cut-offs for dulifferent times of the day.
Can't second this enough. I have a Sunsynk inverter here in South Africa where we deal with multiple-daily grid outages. So the priority is always set (based on time of day) to keep the batteries charged "just in case". If Solar can't provide enough juice, it sucks from the grid.
The whole thing is actually quite elegant. It turns "electricity" into this fungible thing like it was supposed to be in the first place. More pro points, you can plug in an electric-start generator and configure it to start automatically as needed in order to supplement the solar. Going further still, you can plug in a wind-turbine and have it blend it into this whole system.
Makes me wish I could install a wind turbine on my roof. A fair bit of solar, coupled with a little bit of wind suddenly makes your batteries go a really long way towards being fully off-grid capable.
I have 1.2kW of used Sunpower panels I bought for $70/pop about 3 years ago. Buying decommissioned commercial install panels is insanely cost effective. It's crazy how cheap they go.
Yeah! The Sunpower T5s mentioned above are still performing at near-max performance as far as I can tell. Things like shading or dust will influence modern panels way more than their age at this point IMO. Past 20 years I don't know - but for the next 10 years, it's seems to be a pretty good hack :)
My understanding is commercial installs are more sensitive to efficiency than consumers. I believe it's far more economical for them to squeeze everything they can out of an acreage than it is to simply build new. Between panels losing efficiency and newer, more efficient panels coming on the market, commercial installs tend to cycle out panels well before the end of their life.
This leaves a second-hand market with some pretty crazy discounts.
I’m surprised the landlord is ok with this. I understand the panels might be rated to withstand some amount of wind, but there’s a huge liability if this project lead to injury.
A good job was done considering the load on the indoor wiring, but the exposed wires on the outside of a building concern me. Typically wires have some level of insulation and/or conduit that reduces and contains the spread of fire. If wind did move the panels around, those wires could pull loose and start a fire.
SF does not perform frequent building inspection, but if an inspector saw this they would almost certainly cite that this violates building code. In the event of injury, insurance might not pay out given how this is setup.
Around the 2 minute mark in the video you can see he's ratchet strapped the panels together, and in turn that strap is attached to the roof (looks to be looped around a pipe?).
So he's not just relying on the wind rating of the panels.
A better and perhaps code compliant way to do this (this is sometimes done this way here in NL, no idea about the US) is to bolt the panels to e.g. an aluminum frame, which you'd then hold to the roof with ballast, e.g. cinder blocks or heavy yard tiles.
Depending on the panel area, frame and amount of ballast you can easily prove that there's no way the result would move due to weather, unless you were experiencing such apocalyptic winds that the house itself would be destroyed anyway.
My power is resold by the city so they don’t break it out, but a nearby county is 4.55c per kWh distribution charge and 5.96c per kWh generation charge.
> If you use very little on the residential schedule I think it can drop pretty low, probably around $0.15/kWh.
The lowest price on the PG&E tiered rate plan E1 (implied by the words "If you use very little ...") is $0.42/kWh. Even the most variable rate EV2A plan has an off-peak price of $0.35/kWh. I don't see any way to get a price of $0.15 kWh.
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I like the idea of solar, and of backups, and of figuring out how to live comfortably in rentals, and of being mobile, but...
I'm pretty sure that my own real-life landlord would flip out, if he came to the door, and saw that charger box bolted to the wall, and the bare terminals of an Alibaba special "SCREMOWER" large lithium battery pack.
Before he even saw that cabling. Which I think (with those lengths, and tacked up like that) would be an electrical code violation here.
Would insurance even cover a fire?
Also, if there's later an expensive roof leak, there'd be questions about whether it had been caused by installation of the panels (even though no holes were drilled). And is there a liability risk if the panel gets blown off.
And would insurance cover any of that?
Were I in landlord's position myself, I'd have much of the same concerns.
Safety hazards I see include: Solar panels on the roof that aren’t bolted dow; I don’t care what wind speed they’re rated for. Wires running from them to the inside of the house not in conduit and not secured. A high energy battery pack not NRTL listed. Extension cords draped through the house permanently installed (within the expansive definition of permanently installed used by the NEC)
In addition running the wires in through a cracked window creates an unacceptable risk of water damage.
That said, it’s a cool project. Just do this in a barn you own not a house I own.
How does one stop tenants using "dodgy" chargers to charge their electric bike or whatever, and the battery bank causes a fire.?
Does your insurance cover these situations???
If you stop being a parasite perhaps one could afford a barn.
Someday we'll wonder why we thought it was a good idea to make the need for shelter into an investment vehicle. Until then, I hope people use your properties as they see fit.
The manufacturers are well aware of risks, for liability reasons if nothing else, and have contained them in the uniform-electrical-code mandated manner. The system is no more risky than any other plugged-in appliance. We don't need to invent problems. Extension cords are just extension cords.
Ive taught a bunch of in person classes on DIY solar and I would never have published this, its asking people to get evicted or worse.
I should add, mine are all in the context of fringe living... vans, campers, boats, alleyways, etc.
Explaining that to the landlord may not be fruitful however.
That's actually one of my bigger concerns with these solar into battery stunts is where to place such a massive array of batteries such that if something caught fire it wouldn't take out my roof or other flamable stuff
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_q-xnYRugQ&t=1131s
Most landlords here are pretty low maintenance (both ways) as long as you pay on time and willing to bend. Did not blink an eye when I asked to go roof WISP and drilled my own hole next to the cable line. No roof penetration so they didn’t care.
I’m thinking of asking about a weighted panel to cover the 4-9pm PG&E quadruple pricing via a LFP bank.
Yes. Insurance is a contract, and the standard insurance contracts used by nearly all insurers do not contain exclusions for permits, code violations, or things like this. They would absolutely not renew you after a loss caused by something like this, and would probably report the loss to the industry databases. Insurance companies will often try to impose liability on other parties when losses happen, but they don't sue their own customer, as the whole point of an insurance contract is that they are assuming liability for loss in exchange for your premium. (If you believe this to be otherwise, try to find a recorded instance of an insurer denying coverage for code violations or un-permitted work. I've never been able to do so, and would be very interested in reading the case study.)
If you want to be sure, just ask your insurer for a copy of your contact, and read it. They aren't that complex.
I wouldn’t condone this or any variation thereof that violates the NEC, a lot of liability is being assumed by doing this.
I realize not everyone can afford a new home but with the proper knowledge and tools you can make electrical changes to achieve your goals that can be reversed on move out.
I might have previously done things against my landlords wishes but it was done - and removed - professionally. The other option is to talk to your landlord and do it right, making it permanent upon your separation from the property.
Good point about the possibility of a roof leak and placing blame. I didn’t think of that.
Also more recently I learned that these things can vibrate. Which would not be good for a window.
You’d be better off passing a wire ribbon around the sash.
But still inspired me to perhaps to something like this that bypasses the meter and the city grid, but just a little more limited in scope than running duplicate wiring everywhere.
A more proper way to do this would be to have one self contained outdoor box rated to contain high energy batteries, have your inverter and PDU as part of that package and then plug your the panels to that. When you have a power outage go out and grab your backup battery box. This eliminates the bulk of the issues.
Although, that raises the obvious solution that you could just spend a bit more money and get one of those self contained "battery generators", which have been properly engineered and designed, and are also pretty portable.
Another thing I would add is adding some sandbags to the solar panels so that they don't fly off the roof in a high wind scenario. Theres a reason why when doing a rooftop installation code will specify this if not being directly bolted. (Technically a structural engineer will need to do a load calculation, but for this size of install the risks are minimal compared to the risks inherent in the rest of the system)
Context: I have a solar + battery system for backup power purposes. We have long enough grid outages every so often that make it worthwhile, and I need to keep the batteries charged in preparation for those outages. However, 98% of the time the batteries are charged and the solar power is just being wasted (there is no grid tie back here); I'd like to actually use it. The invertor (which is cheap chinese) can prioritize "renewable over grid" and thus use the solar during the day, but in this mode it then uses the batteries at night, and recharges them from grid when it runs them down; this means lots of battery cycles and also potential for backup to be foiled if the grid goes down at the wrong time.
But depending on your solar panel and consistent power draw, I'd maybe use the solar > battery > utility mode. It'll let you set a point to switch from battery to utility, the highest at 95%. That way when your usage is below your solar generation, you can still use the solar to charge the battery.
A bit more wear and tear on the battery, but even less solar wasted. Assuming you can handle the batteries only being at 95% if you have an outage. If your usage is less than your solar generation, could even set it lower.
I've been looking at something similar but different. My grid is fine, but I want to be able to use the batteries based on my time-of-use plan prices. I have less solar panels, but would want to charge my battery using grid power when prices are lower.
The battery setting can be configured on a timer, so you can have different cut-offs for dulifferent times of the day.
The whole thing is actually quite elegant. It turns "electricity" into this fungible thing like it was supposed to be in the first place. More pro points, you can plug in an electric-start generator and configure it to start automatically as needed in order to supplement the solar. Going further still, you can plug in a wind-turbine and have it blend it into this whole system.
Makes me wish I could install a wind turbine on my roof. A fair bit of solar, coupled with a little bit of wind suddenly makes your batteries go a really long way towards being fully off-grid capable.
https://www.mobile-solarpower.com
He has spec'd out a lot of DIY Solar Packages and lists the BoM on his website.
My understanding is commercial installs are more sensitive to efficiency than consumers. I believe it's far more economical for them to squeeze everything they can out of an acreage than it is to simply build new. Between panels losing efficiency and newer, more efficient panels coming on the market, commercial installs tend to cycle out panels well before the end of their life.
This leaves a second-hand market with some pretty crazy discounts.
These days, $1k will buy a fair bit of a China made power brick. No need for solar access — for when the power goes out in a storm and/or at night.
A big brick or several small ones is also less work; can live out of the way when not in use; and can be used when tailgating or car camping.
For food cooling a small chest freezer has broad utility and unpowered will stay cool through a moderate outage.
A good job was done considering the load on the indoor wiring, but the exposed wires on the outside of a building concern me. Typically wires have some level of insulation and/or conduit that reduces and contains the spread of fire. If wind did move the panels around, those wires could pull loose and start a fire.
SF does not perform frequent building inspection, but if an inspector saw this they would almost certainly cite that this violates building code. In the event of injury, insurance might not pay out given how this is setup.
So he's not just relying on the wind rating of the panels.
A better and perhaps code compliant way to do this (this is sometimes done this way here in NL, no idea about the US) is to bolt the panels to e.g. an aluminum frame, which you'd then hold to the roof with ballast, e.g. cinder blocks or heavy yard tiles.
Depending on the panel area, frame and amount of ballast you can easily prove that there's no way the result would move due to weather, unless you were experiencing such apocalyptic winds that the house itself would be destroyed anyway.
If you use very little on the residential schedule I think it can drop pretty low, probably around $0.15/kWh.
The lowest price on the PG&E tiered rate plan E1 (implied by the words "If you use very little ...") is $0.42/kWh. Even the most variable rate EV2A plan has an off-peak price of $0.35/kWh. I don't see any way to get a price of $0.15 kWh.