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OskarS · 3 years ago
My brother passed away very suddenly a few years ago, and I was put in charge of wrapping up and archiving his "digital" life. We were very lucky that we had access to a recovery email for his main gmail account (as well as a couple of passwords that his partner knew) and was able to access and archive virtually all data we could think of (services like Google Takeout were invaluable). I realized that if this had happened to me, it would have been virtually impossible to do, as all my passwords and credentials are in my password manager, and the password to that was only in my head.

It's a good thing to plan for this eventuality, to make it easy for your family and friends to wind up your "digital life" after you've passed. 1Password has a very good solution for this, with a "recovery document" you can print out and write down your password on, which contains instructions anyone else would need to access your 1Password account. I gave a copy of this document printed out to a small number of people I trust implicitly.

You never know when something sudden can happen to you. For the sake of those you leave behind, it's a nice gift to plan for this eventuality, even if it seems far off at the moment.

DicIfTEx · 3 years ago
Useful checklist: https://getyourshittogether.org/

Others in this thread have talked about safety deposit boxes and buried crates. I'd add that you can just give some trusted party a normal encrypted USB flash drive, and eliminate the risk of getting absolutely rinsed out in the event of a house burglary by splitting the password amongst an arbitrary number of your other contacts using the Shamir's Secret Sharing algorithm.

sshine · 3 years ago
I call this a Horcrux.

Also, unless your arbitrary number of friends are cryptographers, it's a sure way for them to collectively lose your shit.

flobosg · 3 years ago
Additional links:

* What to Do Before You Die: A Tech Checklist – https://archive.is/6vjqQ

* Cheat Sheet For If I'm Gone – https://archive.is/lnWX6https://github.com/christophercalm/if-im-gone/blob/main/exam... (HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31748553)

hardburn · 3 years ago
I wouldn't trust USB flash drives with anything long term. Best archival method would be to print something out (perhaps an encrypted message in a QR code), have it put away somewhere secure, and use that for a key to unlocking everything else.
hoherd · 3 years ago
I had a similar situation where I lost my brother very unexpectedly. I ended up having to run a password cracker on his windows account because nobody had a recovery email. Thankfully his windows credentials were not very strong and his gaming GPU was able to crack the password in a few days using a Linux livecd, and I was able to expand from there into his 1Password account. Like you, I realized that having a trusted second party with the keys to my digital kingdom would be a wise choice in case of a disaster.
bombcar · 3 years ago
This is one of the reasons that I’ve begun to pare down the number of online financial accounts I have, even though churning for bonuses is fun.

Every single one will have to be dealt with eventually by someone, so if I can reduce the number of banks I deal with it’s worth it, even at some small cost of not being “perfectly optimal”.

dumpster_fire · 3 years ago
Yeah I used to have a massive spreadsheet tracking the entirety of household finances. I was worried that no one would know where the money was if I suddenly died, so I started a monthly finance 1:1 with my spouse. Even wrote an "upon death or incapacitation" playbook for her.

The second session was just her saying WTF I can't keep track of the location, ownership and tax benefits of 40 accounts!

I've since closed 3/4 of all accounts because of that.

OJFord · 3 years ago
Banks are the last thing I'd worry about (I wouldn't) - they're highly regulated, audited, and have been dealing with this forever, since before 'passwords'.
r3trohack3r · 3 years ago
I’m sorry to hear about your brother.

> all my passwords and credentials are in my password manager, and the password to that was only in my head.

It’s not just death I worry about. Anything that causes me to lose my memory of the password, from disease to head injury, leaves those trying to help me locked out of everything.

A password manager is an incredibly helpful tool to leave behind, it’s a compiled list of all vendors you have registered an online account with.

But, IIUC, without legal authority to access those accounts on my behalf it might not be sufficient. I’m planning to talk to an attorney that specializes in taking care of the legal side too. IIUC there are accounts you need legal authority to access even if you have the password. For example, if I give my friend the password to my 401k with the purpose of managing my estate, them using that password can put them in a legally gray area.

Also planning to work out a rough order of importance and context for a subset of accounts can help. Like writing down which financial vendor is managing the life insurance policy and whether that’s tied to my employer or not (if I lose my job leading up to my death, I.e. during a long battle with an injury, will I lose my life insurance before it pays out?)

A “red binder” project is on my families short list - the “I’m dead or incapacitated, here’s what you do” playbook. The above is how I’m thinking about things. I would love to hear more thoughts/perspectives

WorldMaker · 3 years ago
> But, IIUC, without legal authority to access those accounts on my behalf it might not be sufficient.

Relatedly, most digital accounts explicitly don't survive the user in their Terms of Service agreements. I think there are a lot of legal battles to come over digital inheritance rights for accounts like Movies Anywhere and Steam and App Store purchases.

petee · 3 years ago
Another consideration, when my dad passed we had his passwords but not his phone or tablet pins/patterns.

Both devices are encrypted, and the samsung I believe is set to wipe after a number of failed attempts. While there probably isn't anything on them, it's always been a pain to not know.

ThrowAway1922A · 3 years ago
> While there probably isn't anything on them, it's always been a pain to not know.

I know I wouldn't care because I'd be dead, but I really do not want my family getting on to my personal devices after I'm dead. Those are things that I will never give them the passwords for, not everything is their business.

danielnoiz · 3 years ago
I've had this[0] bookmarked for a while. A good list of things to keep note of somewhere safe. Probably the old "3-2-1" backup method at minimum.

[0] https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=119346

danielvaughn · 3 years ago
My brother-in-law's mother passed away last year and he was in a similar situation. Even beyond the digital realm, there are so many details in a person's life that have to be attended to. Insurance, mortgage, vehicle ownership, etc etc. It's really an overwhelming process and it took a toll on him.

I've been thinking about building a platform to help prepare for and guide families who are faced with this kind of situation.

detourdog · 3 years ago
I had to go through this for my Mom an ex-pat in Israel. The account I was using was a joint-schwab account we had shared for 2 decades.

I mentioned to Schwab that she had passed and they froze the account until I could prove the estate was less than $14 Million. Needless to say this was a disaster as I was in a foreign country writing checks left and right.

The issue was that it was foreign addressed account of a US domiciled bank. The IRS places the liability of the taxes on the bank if the estate is over $12 Million. Schwab would recognise a letter from the IRS stating that or any US probate court. My Mom's estate with no US assets has no US based probate court access. The IRS rule was enacted after our joint-account was opened and blew up our estate plan.

Needless to say in 30 years I only had one problem with Schwab (which I had praised as the best bank ever until that moment). I have been unwinding all of my families Schwab accounts.

bityard · 3 years ago
I think the hard part is more that it's difficult to focus on the business decisions against the background of a loved one's death, more than the process itself is difficult.

You pretty much need an estate lawyer just to navigate all of the legal stuff associated with a person's passing, and I went through this a few years ago with my own father.

But the majority of attorneys who handle estates can also handle all of the financial and personal details as well. The only times this really NEEDS to get complicated is when the estate has a negative net worth (which means a potential lack of funds to close the estate), contains businesses that need to be sold or split up, or when survivors fight each other for their percentage of the inheritance.

not_the_fda · 3 years ago
I've recently been planning for my death, no urgent need, but you never know.

I've put a backup of my keepass passwords on a USB as well as a printout of the passwords and the master password in a firebox. I also keep a list of assets and financial accounts in there along with birth certificates and passports. My spouse and I both have a key.

I would have used a safe deposit box but those are disappearing.

justanideaortwo · 3 years ago
Please remember that USB storage needs to be recharged every so often, or the data will be lost.
pmckenna · 3 years ago
Weirdly this is something I’ve been thinking about a lot recently. I had no idea 1Password provided a recovery kit until you mentioned it. Just had a look and looks good.

I’ll definitely go through the steps, but I’m wondering what the best way to store it is. Feels weird keeping a document lying around giving access to all your passwords, bank cards, finances etc.

I’ll have a think about storage.

lm28469 · 3 years ago
> I had no idea 1Password provided a recovery kit until you mentioned it.

There are people out there with 1password and no recovery kit ? Some people like to live dangerously

mathgorges · 3 years ago
Banks’ safe deposit boxes are a good choice if there are any near you, though they’re often expensive.

If you have a lawyer/attorney that you trust they’re often in the habit of securely storing physical documents, but again, expensive.

Personally, I (a cheap-ass) keep a copy in a wooden box buried underground in a secure location along with a few other things.

However, the security of physical things remains a difficult problem that is most easily solved with money!

JohnMakin · 3 years ago
I have a deadman switch where if I don’t log into a service for 90 days it sends all my passwords and information to my closest living relative.
macinjosh · 3 years ago
If you'd be willing I'd be interested to know more about how you did this.
kqr · 3 years ago
I'm lucky enough to never have been put in this situation, so please excuse my ignorance: why does someone need to be able to sign in to my accounts when I'm no longer?
OskarS · 3 years ago
Lots of other people have mentioned very good practical reasons (and you can read the linked post for others, like people being unsure of what the password to the Vim FTP is), but there are lots of good sentimental ones as well.

When something like this happens, you lose your mind slightly, and you become obsessed with preserving whatever is possible to preserve of the person. I went so far as to record his voice-mail message, just because I felt i needed to.

Of all the internet stuff, the thing that was most important to us was photos: he was a photographer, and he used a photo-uploading service (I think it was Google Photos, but I'm unsure, it's been a couple of years) and I was able to get an archive with all his thousands of photographs.

Eventually, I put everything I could possibly find (computers, internet services, whatever) into one big zip file, and put it on my local NAS (which is backed up to the cloud). I don't think I'll ever have the heart to go through it again, but my brother had young kids who never really got to know their dad. I figure one day they might want to look at it (even if it's 30 years from now) so it makes me feel good to know that it's been preserved.

chasd00 · 3 years ago
When my father in law passed away his wife asked me to get some photos on a thumb drive for her. I knew his password from watching him login, I also went ahead and deleted his browser history.
ncann · 3 years ago
If you are perfectly prepared for your passing and made your will, arranged all the financial stuffs, told your friends and family everything needed etc. then you don't need to give access to your accounts. But many people don't have that luxury. When death is unexpected, things get messy, e.g you may want to continue paying the mortgage on time, or shutdown social media accounts, or make announcement of their passing using those accounts, or contact their lawyer, or cancel subscribed services, and so on.
lowercased · 3 years ago
Being able to unsubscribe to a service, as someone else mentioned.

In social media world, posting some final "xyz has passed on. this account will be closing" or similar 'wrap up' activity is often useful.

Nzen · 3 years ago
While most people have focused on post-mortem account recovery, that's not the only occasion. The small company I've worked for has had the last three administrators leave the company in arrears for a time with quick departures and little handoff of procedures. It is all the more frustrating because we overtly use a shared password managment tool for accessing client servers.
bluGill · 3 years ago
When my dad died my mom needed access to all the accounts to do things like pay the electric bill. That is all done online so without him logging into the online bill pay she would have no way to know what was owed. I suppose after a few months of not paying they would send a paper bill, but then there are late fees and the like.
maxfurman · 3 years ago
Anything with recurring billing needs to be cancelled, for a start.
RalfWausE · 3 years ago
Its not just about passing away, even a sudden incapacitation from which you do recover may pose a bit of a challenge for the relatives:

Some time ago my dad had some severe heart problems which lead to him being hospitalised for multiple months and a lengthy recovery where he was in full "vegetable" mode in the beginning. As he is somewhat of a "patriarch" personality the whole family finances, insurances etc. where all on his personal system.

It really was "fun" to sort everything out for us and even more "fun" for himself making any sense of his whole accounting sheme after suffering some memory loss during the whole ordeal.

So... having some "letter of last resort" deposed somewhere may even benefit yourself...

em-bee · 3 years ago
that's what would scare me the most. to forget my passwords due to some accident. if i pass away it wouldn't matter to me, but the thought of recovering from an illness but then not being able to access things that i had before is horrifying.
swader999 · 3 years ago
The finger doesn't need to be alive to unlock the phone. But yeah, don't put your loved ones through that.
patrick451 · 3 years ago
I'm genuinely curious why this needs to be done. Maybe I'm weird, but I don't think I have anything valuable online that my family would want. Of course, there are all my financial accounts, but I would think that just a password wouldn't do them much good with those, at least to legally drain them. I would think (and could be wrong) they would need to go through legal channels for that. What else is there? I can't imagine they want download my email which is mostly just business transactions anyway.
joe5150 · 3 years ago
I can think of a handful of things that it might be nice or convenient for someone to be able to access (subscription services and whatnot), but I agree that it seems legally unwise to encourage anyone to try to log into my financial accounts and move money around after I die. Naming a beneficiary is a sounder strategy.
tomjen3 · 3 years ago
I am sorry about your brother.

When we talk about these things it is always assumed that we want our family to have access to our digital lives after we die. I have lots of pictures from shared memories that I want my family to have - and they already do.

Other things I want to die with me - things that were not shared with my family before I died shouldn't be shared with them after I die.

Why is it that we generally assume that we should get access to other peoples private stuff because they are dead?

Again, not trying to make this an attack on you.

And of course I am excepting getting access to bank accounts and insurance.

hoseja · 3 years ago
I'm with the other guy. Your unique pattern of electronic activity has ceased irrecoverably. No need for your patterns of electronic activity in computers to be any different.
josephd79 · 3 years ago
Now that I think about it, I should probably do the same. I use Bitwarden and they allow you to add an 'emergency contact' that is granted access after X amount of days.
benreesman · 3 years ago
My condolences about the loss of your brother. My kid brother passed away a few years ago as well, and his digital footprint is one of the most vivid portraits of his last years, and to me a treasure beyond accounting.

I strongly second the imperative to preserve as much as possible in the event that any of us suffer a mischief.

xmdx · 3 years ago
Had the same experience with my dad passing recently, we had access to everything because we know the passwords he uses and he was ok with sharing those with us.

Will definitely look into the 1password emergency kit, thanks for mentioning it. 2fa is the other big challenge after that.

itsthecourier · 3 years ago
LastPass let you put two emails as your family members and you setup a 30 day limit to show you are alive. If your loved ones require access to your passwords and you are not there for 30 days, Lastpass release your passwords to them
woleium · 3 years ago
But we don't use LastPass after they have demonstrated over and over that they are not to be trusted with our secrets, right?
phpisthebest · 3 years ago
I keep a hard card in my safe next to my property titles, and other important paper work that has my bitwarden master password on it. From there who ever processes my estate should have no problems accessing everything
ubermonkey · 3 years ago
Let me add one other bit.

I had a similar experience about 18 months ago when my friend A. suddenly died. He was fit and healthy, but for some reason had a seizure on a bike ride, crashed, and that was the end of his story.

Unfortunately for his widow, she and he were not on a family account with Apple, and so it took a LOT of rigmarole to even access, say, the photos on his phone.

Apple now has a "Legacy Contact" feature you can enable; this is a VERY VERY GOOD IDEA FOR MOST PEOPLE. I assume Google has something similar if you're on Android.

The tl;dr is really "you just gotta have a plan." When you go, next week or decades from now, it'll be hard for those you leave behind. Do whatever you can to make it easier for them.

Dead Comment

majewsky · 3 years ago
Can someone copy-paste the text, please? I cannot read it because Google hates Firefox users apparently.

EDIT: The Internet Archive has a functional copy. https://web.archive.org/web/20230810094255/groups.google.com...

sigzero · 3 years ago
No issues with FF for me. Probably the HN effect maybe?
nabakin · 3 years ago
Interesting that HN was able to DDOS a Google service
jefftk · 3 years ago
Not a Firefox-specific issue; I don't see it loading in Chrome either.
GoblinSlayer · 3 years ago
Didn't know web archive could see it. Google groups never worked for me, so I assumed it's yet another broken web 2.0 app.
thejammahimself · 3 years ago
I've tried loading on Chromium but that doesn't work either it seems.
hoten · 3 years ago
The page isn't loading on my mobile Chrome either.
javier_e06 · 3 years ago
I'm saddened by the news.

Required reading: https://evrone.com/blog/bram-moolenaar-interview

"Software development is much more of a craft. A craftsman uses whatever tools he thinks will get the best result, no matter if they are what everybody else is using or something different. And a good craftsman makes his own tools when needed" -B. Moolenar.

As someone who had made vim is part of the development dna: Thank you.

jauntywundrkind · 3 years ago
Embodies the most amazing part about vim well. From text-objects to macros to registers, vim is a dynamic programming environment where we are capturing state and invoking little scripts.

Vim is spellcasting in the fly. Not puzzling out complex rotes to perform dutifully, but building a potent ether around us & then applying a little twist just so to alter the universe around us.

fl0ki · 3 years ago
This is not a dig, just a concerned citizen: I would encourage you to check whether your microdose schedule has crept up from the standard 10-25µg into what looks like 50-75µg. It's one of those things that other people suspect long before you do. In any case, have fun, practice safe sorcery.
junon · 3 years ago
Best of luck, this transition period is going to be chaotic for a while I'm sure. Glad to see the project in the hands of someone who seems to be on top of things. I also appreciate the carefulness of changes to the codebase after assuming leadership.
fortunateregard · 3 years ago
What is it that prevents the rest of the vim community from adopting neovim? From what I can observe, a great deal already have. But for the folks holding out, what is it that outweighs all that neovim has to offer?
enriquto · 3 years ago
> what is it that outweighs all that neovim has to offer?

You should ask, and answer, the question in reverse. What does neovim offer me, as a regular vim user? I don't see anything particularly interesting for my usage, so I don't have any reason to change. Also, some features are missing (like gvim-gtk, that I enjoy using to edit LaTeX occasionally).

Furthermore, as of today, plain vim has an aura of venerability due to Bram's legacy that neovim cannot match. So I'll stick with vim.

It would make sense to port back some of the most popular neovim features into vim. It is a good thing to have innovative forks that experiment aggressively with new features.

gorjusborg · 3 years ago
> You should ask, and answer, the question in reverse. What does neovim offer me, as a regular vim user?

Well, one of the goals of neovim was to make it easier for new people to contribute.

So, there's an obvious feature you might be overlooking: the project surviving past its creators passing.

Beyond that, async, lua, lsp and treesitter support are other things neovim brings to the table. I don't use vim much anymore, but I know that neovim incorporated them first. If vim did follow on some of those innovations, consider how long it might take for new vim maintainers to get to a point where Bram needed to be to keep up, without his guidance.

I wonder if there is a need for both vim and neovim in the future. Neovim was born out of wanting to do similar things to what the vim maintainers are considering.

gkfasdfasdf · 3 years ago
Neovim's language server integration is a killer feature that got me to switch.
BaseballPhysics · 3 years ago
One of the big ones for me was Wayland support in neovim-gtk (https://github.com/Lyude/neovim-gtk), which therefore, unlike gvim, fully supports fractional scaling.
infinitezest · 3 years ago
Maybe not important to some but the ability to use Lua over VimScript is a big win in my opinion. In fact, I use a mix of thr two where necessary.
oblio · 3 years ago
Inertia.

Such base programs basically need to go through the Debian packaging gauntlet if they want to succeed.

What I mean by that is that generally they need to persuade distros to be anointed the "official" tool, i.e. Debian or Fedora would have to select Neovim as the new default text instead of Vim.

Then you need a few years for the changes to trickle down everywhere: Debian -> Ubuntu-> Mint -> ..., Fedora -> RHEL, ... After that distro releases need to be cut and people need to upgrade.

I think a full cycle, where a tool becomes ubiquitous if it gets adopted in the base installs, is probably 10 years. See systemd.

trealira · 3 years ago
> What I mean by that is that generally they need to persuade distros to be anointed the "official" tool, i.e. Debian or Fedora would have to select Neovim as the new default text instead of Vim.

You're probably right. However, I think it's more likely that the Linux distros drop Vim entirely and make Nano the default editor than that they replace Vim with Neovim.

The BSDs have nvi as the default editor, IIRC, so they won't need to change anything.

user3939382 · 3 years ago
> Inertia.

At some point I tried to switch and some setting broke in my config (mouse mode?) I forget what it was. It took me another 3-4 years before I tried again.

planede · 3 years ago
In what sense vim is default in Debian?
massysett · 3 years ago
My Vim needs are very modest. I just don’t need anything Neovim has. It’s complication I don’t need.

If Vim got no new features, I wouldn’t care. If Vim became unmaintained but still available from distributions, I’d still use it. If Vim became unavailable (e.g. due to lack of maintenance) I’d be more likely to switch to nvi than Neovim.

I could probably switch to nvi now, but I have no reason to.

throwaway290 · 3 years ago
FWIW you can use Neovim like Vim with your existing config, without any of the other stuff. That made the switch easy for me. Of course this means you'd rely on Neovim maintainers honoring that compatibility in future...
jzb · 3 years ago
Loyalty? Inertia? I never felt like there was a reason to switch. I admired Bram’s work on Vim, still do, and didn’t see any benefits to switching. Still don’t, as long as the rest of the Vim dev community are willing and able to carry it forward.

For my purposes, Vim is complete. I don’t require new features, as long as it is maintained and runs on modern OSes.

plugin-baby · 3 years ago
I tried switching recently, mainly because I wanted treesitter. I couldn’t get it working after half a day messing about, a lot of documentation seemed out of date, and I don’t think my standard plugins + .vimrc worked out of the box. My main focus is getting things done, not fiddling with configs and versions, so I gave up. I figure I’ll try again in a couple of years if it’s still tempting.
gorjusborg · 3 years ago
Weird. That hasn't been my experience at all.

I copied .vimrc to .config/nvim/init.vim, did a :PluginInstall and was up and running.

colordrops · 3 years ago
I fiddled with it for half a day 5 years ago to get it working and have reaped the benefits for 5 years.
OJFord · 3 years ago
Well, why should I? I don't need a reason not to do everything, by default I'm not doing things, it's changing from status quo that requires a reason.
rgoulter · 3 years ago
It's easier to maintain one codebase than to maintain two forks.

If development of vim dropped and neovim was nominated as its successor, I'd think most vim users would be just fine.

andrewla · 3 years ago
For me, it's the use of Lua. I switched to neovim in no small part for the sane defaults, the XDG layout support, and the async/terminal stuff (and I found the code simplification, addition of tests, and removal of ancient legacy stuff to be very appealing).

The terminal and async stuff has been "backported" to vim, as it were. But the plugin ecosystem is diverging. The other items are still open, and maybe those will move forward.

At this point Vim9 is the clearly superior language (don't hate me) since it's very domain-specific, while Lua has only very primitive hacky support. But the plugin ecosystems have diverged -- I don't see NeoVim coming back home without native Lua support, and I definitely don't want native Lua support in vim.

kps · 3 years ago
Every time I've tried it, something was missing or broken. Currently it's at least :! which breaks apparently because it tries to do something ‘clever’ and complicated, whereas vi and vim just run the command.

(I can live without cscope, since I no longer do significant C and mlcscope has been dead for aeons, though it's shocking that LSPs are still less capable in some respects.)

minusf · 3 years ago
not a heavy :! user, what i used there worked, but afaik neovim recommends :te . that's one of the bigger differences. neovim was very proud to have a fully integrated terminal
layer8 · 3 years ago
By now the two have diverged enough that switching configurations between both is an issue. Vim is still much more widely available (installed by default) than Neovim, which makes it the obvious choice to maintain your configurations for if you don’t specifically care about Neovim features. Furthermore, additions like Lua support, while pragmatic, make Neovim feel less organic to me.
ansible · 3 years ago
In that vein, you are probably fine with whatever version of Vim is installed by your distro. But if you want LSP support for more cutting-edge stuff (like Rust), you probably need to install the latest release of Neovim by hand, not using the OS packaging system. Because stuff is changing too fast.
ALoverOfLats · 3 years ago
Can’t speak for everyone but in my day to day most systems I work with already come with vim preinstalled or more convenient to install than neovim. I’d rather just pull my vimrc (If I even have to) and get down to editing quickly.
h11h · 3 years ago
MacVim and gVim. I've looked at neovim and there are many GUI options (paradox of choice), some of which I've tried, but at the end of the day, I'm more comfortable with what I'm already familiar with.
rmwaite · 3 years ago
Likewise. I’m a heavy CLI user but gVim/MacVim are so entrenched in my workflow that the lack of a stable GUI for Neovim made it pretty much a nonstarter for me.
sigzero · 3 years ago
This is my biggest hurdle as well. The UI not being part of the core is a non-starter for me and I have tried several of the neovim ones.
w0m · 3 years ago
I did the Vim -> NeoVim switch a while back (pre-vim9script) and lack of standardized GUI is a non trivial issue. There are solution(s) - but allof them have had too much friction to fit in a workflow for me. Definitely a concern.
beej71 · 3 years ago
If neovim had the same keystrokes to move out of a terminal window as it does to move out of editor windows, I'd switch. But as it is, it's super clunky compared to vim.

I know about rebinding to alt, but that doesn't work in all my terminals.

So for me, it's that one lousy thing that keeps me from switching. And if someone knows the magic setting to make it mimic vim, please let me know.

ansible · 3 years ago
I've never used those features, and instead rely on GNU screen (or `term`) to manage my terminal windows. Sometimes I also use horizontal / vertical splits with GNU screen, but it is a bit clunky.
kzrdude · 3 years ago
What keystrokes does vim use for this? I've never been a big user if terminals inside vim
imbnwa · 3 years ago
I hear this and the workaround has been opening terminals in a floating window. The “toggleterm.nvim” plugin wraps a bunch of good behavior around this.
arp242 · 3 years ago
- It's not backwards compatible.

- Features I find useful have been removed.

- I dislike Lua, and significantly prefer Vim9Script.

- Gvim is useful at times.

senknvd · 3 years ago
From what I've read[1], vim9script was pushed and developed almost exclusively by Bram. With him, a lot of knowledge about its internals and vision for its future dies.

[1]: https://github.com/vim/vim/discussions/12736#discussioncomme...

nequo · 3 years ago
Out of curiosity to better understand the ways in which Vim can be used:

> Features I find useful have been removed.

Which ones specifically?

> significantly other Vim9Script

What do you like more in Vim9Script?

> Gvim is useful at times.

What are your use cases for the GUI?

mrzool · 3 years ago
Ubiquity. I have Vim on every machine I log into without installing anything extra.
rgoulter · 3 years ago
With caveats:

- Different servers may have different versions of the program. Some distros are very "stable" and have very old versions of programs.

- It's common (especially for vim) for users to have significant configuration files to make use easier.

infinitezest · 3 years ago
In my experience, Nvim and Vim are similar enough that I don't have any trouble SSHing into any server with Vim and using it after using Nvim all day for development. So far Nvim has been a purely opt-in experience for me.
tambourine_man · 3 years ago
From what I remember, NeoVim drops vi compatibility mode.

vi is part of POSIX. That alone would be a reason to mantain Vim as a modern superset of vi.

rgoulter · 3 years ago
In what circumstances would you run `vi` and find yourself upset that you end up in `vim`?
revscat · 3 years ago
Neovim is a superset of vim, so this argument applies to both.
nemetroid · 3 years ago

  $ rpm -qi neovim
  package neovim is not installed
  $ dnf search neovim
  No matches.
I don't have anything against it, but prefer being able to use the same tool across environments.

berkes · 3 years ago
strange.

> Neovim is available through EPEL (Extra Packages for Enterprise Linux)

from https://github.com/neovim/neovim/wiki/Installing-Neovim#cent...

> Neovim is in Fedora starting with Fedora 25 > sudo dnf install -y neovim python3-neovim

from https://github.com/neovim/neovim/wiki/Installing-Neovim#fedo...

kolme · 3 years ago
I would need to migrate my chunky config files. Some issues should be easy (moving files to ~/.config), some other trickier (vim-specific functionality).

But alas, the motivation is not big enough for me to invest the effort.

Some features I'd like from Neovim are built-in LSP (but Vim has that thank to plugins), and tree-sitter based syntax highlighting.

That's not enough for me to move to Neovim.

zelos · 3 years ago
I've switched to Neovim, but there doesn't seem to be a macOS UI nvim client that's quite as polished as MacVim.
anta40 · 3 years ago
That's why I still keep vim updated on my mac system. For nvim, the closest one I found is VimR.
syndicatedjelly · 3 years ago
I would like to use Neovim, but it's not as fully featured as VSCode is, so when I need to boot up something more powerful than Vim, I go to VSCode instead.
highpost · 3 years ago
There is an excellent NeoVIM extension that integrates NeoVIM into VS Code. https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=asvetlia...

Best of both worlds.

BanazirGalbasi · 3 years ago
I feel like I've said the same thing here 3-4 times now, but for some of us it's about what's the most minimal setup required to use the tool. As a sysadmin, I want to be used to the most common tools and configurations that will be on a server without having to take the time to install something new. I could include NeoVim in my Ansible configs for setting up new servers, but generally servers are kept lean so I would rather just use vi/vim for basic edits anyway.

I do use NeoVim with a lightly-customized LazyVim setup on my personal desktop, but I don't use it much differently than I use Vim at the moment. I'm not a power-user, just someone who's comfortable enough with the keybinds that I leave :w everywhere when using a non-vi editor.

tomwheeler · 3 years ago
> for some of us it's about what's the most minimal setup required to use the tool.

That's was the case for me. When I moved from vi to vim 25 years ago, I devoted a lot of time to customizing it for maximum developer efficiency. Around that time, I got a job where I regularly used five different HP/UX machines, a couple of Solaris boxes, and a few other random machines. At the next job, it was HP/UX, AIX, and IRIX. Few of those machines had vim at all, let alone a version compatible with the setup I had on Linux.

I eventually stopped doing the fancy things and settled into using plain vanilla vi, knowing that it would at least work consistently on every machine I used.

guhidalg · 3 years ago
Serious question: how is neovim “heavier” than vim?
conor- · 3 years ago
For me it's that Vim offers me enough to satisfy what I want out of a development experience and vim is also installed everywhere which means I can carry my setup around to pretty much any machine (including servers when doing remote administration).

Since Vim 8 launched with a built-in package manager I'm able to store my vimrc and any extensions in git and easily grab it on any new machine I'm on. The level of effort required for me to convert to Lua and adopt newer nvim version of plugins I use seems too high relative to the benefits.

sdfghswe · 3 years ago
From my admittedly somewhat limited experience, neovim felt a bit more sluggish to launch. Not a good sign.
petepete · 3 years ago

    nvim --clean --startuptime /tmp/neovim

    003.174  000.001: --- NVIM STARTED ---
vs

    vim --clean --startuptime /tmp/vim

    004.274  000.001: --- VIM STARTED ---
Maybe your config had an impact on it, but config-free they're incredibly close.

svlasov · 3 years ago
gvim and vimscript9

Deleted Comment

stcroixx · 3 years ago
For my use case of simple editing, vi was feature complete like 30 years ago. I don't have any preference at all what open source project build implements those features.
suprjami · 3 years ago
cscope support
oblio · 3 years ago
I hope both Vim and Neovim extend olive branches (and Git branches where it makes sense! :-D ).

Even if the fork doesn't heal, if they could align the code bases to bring them closer, both sides win.

goku12 · 3 years ago
Neovim team has always been positive towards Vim. This post doesn't paint the Vim team as being hostile either. However, I really wonder how practical a merge is, considering that neovim isn't a fork or Vim, rather an implementation from scratch.

Edit: Looks like I'm wrong about neovim not being a fork of vim.

oblio · 3 years ago
It's not an implementation from scratch, do you know the history of the projects?

Neovim started out as a large clean up and refactor of Vim code, plus the addition of async code.

That's a huge amount of work, partially re-implemented by Vim (Bram implemented his own version of async).

Actually, after the Neovim launch a lot of the Vim features were just Bram chasing after Neovim features. Vim9script, :term, etc.

I think there was bad blood there with Bram, I'm not sure how deep the emotional rift was between the 2 groups. From the outside a lot of it looked like stubbornness on the Vim side, at least 60% of the time..

biorach · 3 years ago
No, Neovim is a fork

> Neovim is a refactor, and sometimes redactor, in the tradition of Vim (which itself derives from Stevie). It is not a rewrite but a continuation and extension of Vim.

https://neovim.io/charter/

AlecSchueler · 3 years ago
Are you sure it's not a fork? From their project wiki:

> Neovim is a project that seeks to aggressively refactor Vim source code

> It is important to emphasize that this is not a project to rewrite Vim from scratch

bombcar · 3 years ago
These types of mergers have occurred in the past and it usually is the dominant project adopting the use and feel of the features the other has different. Shells acting differently depending on how you call them, for example.
vxNsr · 3 years ago
Everyone puts off estate planning in general for obvious reasons (most people don’t want to think about their own mortality) all the more so, most don’t give a thought to digital estate planning, it’s especially hard because there are very few resources to do it and most apps/websites don’t have that workflow planned out (Afaik, really only Facebook does anything for this).

My wife and I share a password manager account so theoretically she should have access to every site I use, but will she know where to go? Will she have any clue how to maintain our local self hosted services? Let alone the hardware?

I’ve walked her through restarting the esxi server and ssh’ing into the main docker server to restart it, but I haven’t documented any of this anywhere for her…

RobertSponge · 3 years ago
I scrapped my self built server that runs snowflake TrueNAS with zfs doodads and replaced it with simple synology. It has mostly default settings with no encryption.

My wife has no idea about tech and I want it to be easy for her to access our digitised family media and documents, once I no longer around. Any tech literate people/shop can figure out how to pull data out of synology.

em-bee · 3 years ago
as long as she has the passwords she can ask others for help. if you have kids, maybe they can learn how to run your things.
pwpw · 3 years ago
I never realized a tool I use every day was still being actively maintained. An endless amount of thanks to Bram Moolenaar, the many others that have contributed to it, and those that are now helping in the transition.

—-

As an aside, browsing this website on an iPad is terrible. It doesn’t respect my request to increase the font size, and when I zoom in, it starts moving and wrapping the text defeating the purpose of the zoom. That being said, the quote formatting and response is fantastic and how online communication should be.