I had an employer that believed its pay policy was market-competitive, and therefore did not entertain requests for pay rises without proof that you were not being paid a market rate. In practice, that meant interviewing for another job elsewhere and getting an offer at the higher salary.
I did that, and got my 1.5x offer. My employer dutifully offered to match it, but by that point I liked the idea of the new job better anyway. They panicked and made further offers and desperate manoeuvres to keep me, but it was too late.
I am certain they still have that policy in place.
In another display of “most internal communication is just PR”, our company embarked on a “market rate” campaign making out they’ve done loads of really hard, balanced research to ensure we’re being paid well etc. Any response to salary complaints, your manager tell you the same line that you’re already being paid “in line with the market”. You can’t argue with them because /they/ have done /their/ research.
I swear HR have access to a website with playbooks with whole exercises like this
And when you point out a couple of offers with higher pay, they say “there will always be companies that pay more on the higher end, your pay is consistent with the average or slightly above average” and then we set OKRs to try and figure out why we haven’t hired any experienced people in 3+ years
Agreed. Get a better offer and leave, never accept a counter offer intended to keep you.
Accepting a counter-offer in that situation is bad for several reasons. One is that the employer will be left with a sense of extortion and lack of loyalty from you. Another that you should realize that this employer was underpaying you and is either blissfully unaware of the market rates and thus incompetent or worse, malicious. In both cases you are better off working for someone who knows (or has HR who knows) and values your contributions properly.
If you accept the counter offer it should be for other reasons on your part such as that the current job has other benefits for you, such as physical proximity or CV boosting properties.
I've seen colleagues stay for years with golden handcuffs and it has never paid off. It leaves them with psychological misery and have made it much harder for them to get the next job.
Once they know you were REALLY serious about jumping ship, they will start preparing a replacement in case they didn't have one before. And if they think the lower paid replacement can replace you, they will let you go.
My company had a similar policy. The rate of people leaving went up and up. Eventually a new senior leader go HR to do their maths properly, and the “ranges” for many salaries increased by 30-70%. And everyone got increases to match. We’re still nowhere near the US mega-salaries, but the company is entirely unique, which is good enough for a lot of us.
Don’t let the HN bubble fool you. Most of the 2.7 million developers in the US are making between $80K-$170K in most major cities outside of the west coast.
Tbf in EU tech salaries are...underwhelming. And before you mention it, no, my insurance costs (which are minimal) do not justify the $90000 or so pay gap in similar position in the similar branch of the company between Spain or US that I was being offered.
When I was interviewing post-graduation in Uk and Germany I consistently got offers between 27 and 50k Euros/Quid. That imho, was too low compared to what companies in US were willing to pay me.
The biggest raise I ever got was by accident. I was making $105k and knew I was underpaid but no raise was coming so I started looking around. I told a recruiter I was looking for "upwards of 120" and got the response "that's pretty steep
... The max for this position is $90/hr, can we make that work?" I said I'd consider it. I got that position at that rate.
I actually went back to the first company a year later but negotiated properly and got a good bump from even that. Realizing that jobs outside the Bay pay people with my skills that well was a game changer.
Edit: I should clarify this was a W2 contract position. I was an employee of a contracting company that "loaned" me to the client.
Hah; I had the flip side of the same conversation. I was looking for jobs, had a call with a recruiter. Went something like this (paraphrased and inexact numbers):
Recruiter: So what are you looking to make?
Me: Well I'm making 55 now, so more than that.
R: That's $55/hour?
M: No, I make $55k/year.
R: ...
M: And now you understand why I'm looking for a new job.
Never tell how much you’re paid because your first negotiating mistake will carry on throughout your career. Instead state how much you want without basing it on your current comp. Hopefully you know that by now.
The point the commenter is making is that they asked for $120,000/year, but the recruiter thought that was too much hearing "120" as a per-hour rate, so countered with $90/hour. Hilarity ensues. The OP got more than they were asking for because of the ambiguity.
Here's a rule of thumb to figure out the annual pay at a given wage (for a standard 40-hour workweek): Take your hourly wage in dollars per hour (e.g. $40), then double it (e.g. $80), then convert it to thousands (e.g. $80k). That's about what you make in a year at a given wage.
e.g. $31/hr ≈ $62k/yr
To turn things the other way, take the annual wage in thousands (e.g. $80k), divide it by 2 (e.g. $40k) and chop off the thousands (e.g. $40).
e.g. $72k/yr ≈ $36/hr
So in the story, OP was making ~$52.50/hr and wanted to make ~$60/hr, but the recruiter thought they wanted ~$120/hr but could only get them ~$90/hr. Not too shabby.
There's no perfect way to compare. The hourly job was a contract so no PTO, holidays, benefits, ect but also zero overtime. The way I laid it out valued the offer at a $165k equivalent salary at the job I was leaving.
This isn't the worst advice, but my personal opinion is that candidates would get the most leverage around drilling down into point 2 around loss. BATNA is the most powerful negotiating tactic there is, because it's rooted in reality. The only thing worse than the fear of a bidding war is an actual bidding war. If you're a savvy candidate and you understand the correlation of offer negotiation to sales, this makes intuitive sense and it will help you get to another critical data point -- how does your counterparty treat you in the negotiation process when you have multiple real offers on the table?
In my opinion, this is the true value you get from negotiation; just as useful as the extra salary itself. If you end up winning the negotiation but you see resentment and a lack of respect in the process, it should give you some information about the kind of party that you are dealing with. Additionally, it should mean you can get all of your offers up to the max reasonable range you'd expect, and then you have the option of going with the one that feels the best, where you're most convinced you'll be working with good people.
That's the critical part. You want to max your salary but not compromise integrity in the process -- if you make another 2% in first year salary but you end paying much more in sanity, poor fit, burnout, or lack of growth opportunities, you won't end out ahead. Get what you're worth in the short term, but be greediest about the long-term.
I just quit a company that was unable to negotiate.
I had an offer from a Silicon Valley company that would have paid a lot better, but it wasn't full remote (or even hybrid) and I would have had to relocate. So I went into the less well paid no-name with full remote. I tried to negotiate at the beginning with the very real argument of a better paid offer, but they denied. Well, whatever I guess, I tried and full remote was more important to me (still is).
1.5 years later, I realized the environment was a bit too dysfunctional and toxic for my liking and I learned all I wanted there. Fished a new job quite easily a couple weeks ago (several offers), with a bit better pay and a nicer project where I think I can make a better impact and have a nicer environment.
Before I quit I talked with some people and tried to see if they may offer me a better salary. They wanted to keep me and were not happy about me quitting at all, but they were absolutely unable to offer me even just 10k more. What was a bit shocking to me is that HR tried to blame the workers and pointed to a "broken market" for SWEs. I was so taken aback by this delusion that I had no regrets quitting after and I will care even less about "doing it for the team" and I will certainly consider hopping more often again.
So, it highly depends on the company if you can negotiate. However, if you cannot even get the smallest of gestures towards your direction, then that's a pretty big red flag. I don't have regrets. With just 2 years of experience, I'm happy I learn these lessons early on.
My ultimate goal is to start my own company and I'm actively working on that on the side, so hopefully this farce of pretending to care making profits for other people will end soon.
I tripled my salary in two years by starting off woefully underpaid, getting a mediocre first offer at the next place, then completely ignoring any guidance about comp the next time around because I knew no one would bat an eye at the figure. Didn’t even have to negotiate it, just let my manager do it for me.
In hindsight this should be a “how I quadrupled my salary” story. But I’m sharing it in case anyone who feels anxious about negotiating is selling themselves way too short. Go get more money. Relax about it unless you don’t want to. You’re gonna get more money regardless.
> I tripled my salary in two years by starting off woefully underpaid,
Unfortunately, this is how most "I tripled my salary in X years" stories look when you dig into the details.
I've spent a lot of time coaching people on interviewing and negotiating. With some people, half the battle is detaching them from their original compensation anchor point and re-centering on real market data.
On the other hand, I've also had to gently convince a lot of eager students that they can't expect $300K full-remote FAANG offers right out of college, despite whatever they heard on Reddit and Blind.
> Unfortunately, this is how most "I tripled my salary in X years" stories look when you dig into the details.
The only unfortunate thing is how many people don’t find their way to the same story. That’s why I shared it the way I did. I thought I was asking a lot, and many people will too. When I just… got it… I realized my negotiating position.
Are these a long term boost though? I think the compensation bands are eventually going to be based off performance and level after the signing bonus wears off.
* No US country so 300k+ TC is as rare as hens teeth
* Paid probably top 5% ile local comp I guess
* Equates to about $130kUS TC
* Don’t want to relocate
* A tiny chance of getting one of those coveted “remote” jobs (instead of remote-but jobs where the “but” is being in the US with rights to work there)
How can I go about getting an extra 25% or more from current employer? Remember I wont get a local offer higher than what I am on now unless I time travel and make
myself a HFT C++ person, or a senior manager of 1000+ indirect reports.
Well, I live in Eastern Europe so even $120k+ ($10k per month) is rare as hens teeth. Actually the market rate for my skill, seniority and all is half of that so $5000 per month gross.
Now I do get $120k on occasion, as long as it lasts (doesn't always last for long). But how I do it is my competitive advantage, like trading strategies there's not zero but negative incentive for me to generously share it with "everyone". In this area it's everyone for themselves :P
As someone living in the EU, you won’t. I‘d suggest to look into freelancing as there‘s different budgets for those people usually, and this also trims some of the costs for the employer, which you get to pocket. You might also be able to acquire customers from regions with higher salaries.
Start applying for remote jobs outside of your area. When you have a better offer, go to your employer with it. If they don't want to keep you, then you can just move on to the new job.
Readit News
I did that, and got my 1.5x offer. My employer dutifully offered to match it, but by that point I liked the idea of the new job better anyway. They panicked and made further offers and desperate manoeuvres to keep me, but it was too late.
I am certain they still have that policy in place.
I swear HR have access to a website with playbooks with whole exercises like this
And when you point out a couple of offers with higher pay, they say “there will always be companies that pay more on the higher end, your pay is consistent with the average or slightly above average” and then we set OKRs to try and figure out why we haven’t hired any experienced people in 3+ years
I've seen colleagues stay for years with golden handcuffs and it has never paid off. It leaves them with psychological misery and have made it much harder for them to get the next job.
When I was interviewing post-graduation in Uk and Germany I consistently got offers between 27 and 50k Euros/Quid. That imho, was too low compared to what companies in US were willing to pay me.
https://archive.is/8HS5G
I actually went back to the first company a year later but negotiated properly and got a good bump from even that. Realizing that jobs outside the Bay pay people with my skills that well was a game changer.
Edit: I should clarify this was a W2 contract position. I was an employee of a contracting company that "loaned" me to the client.
Recruiter: So what are you looking to make?
Me: Well I'm making 55 now, so more than that.
R: That's $55/hour?
M: No, I make $55k/year.
R: ...
M: And now you understand why I'm looking for a new job.
Never tell how much you’re paid because your first negotiating mistake will carry on throughout your career. Instead state how much you want without basing it on your current comp. Hopefully you know that by now.
The point the commenter is making is that they asked for $120,000/year, but the recruiter thought that was too much hearing "120" as a per-hour rate, so countered with $90/hour. Hilarity ensues. The OP got more than they were asking for because of the ambiguity.
e.g. $31/hr ≈ $62k/yr
To turn things the other way, take the annual wage in thousands (e.g. $80k), divide it by 2 (e.g. $40k) and chop off the thousands (e.g. $40).
e.g. $72k/yr ≈ $36/hr
So in the story, OP was making ~$52.50/hr and wanted to make ~$60/hr, but the recruiter thought they wanted ~$120/hr but could only get them ~$90/hr. Not too shabby.
Life-hack: take your hourly rate, multiply by two, add three zeroes.
90 * 2 = 180. 180 + 000 = 180k.
That assumes: - 40 hour work week - 50 weeks / year (2 weeks vacation)
Deleted Comment
In my opinion, this is the true value you get from negotiation; just as useful as the extra salary itself. If you end up winning the negotiation but you see resentment and a lack of respect in the process, it should give you some information about the kind of party that you are dealing with. Additionally, it should mean you can get all of your offers up to the max reasonable range you'd expect, and then you have the option of going with the one that feels the best, where you're most convinced you'll be working with good people.
That's the critical part. You want to max your salary but not compromise integrity in the process -- if you make another 2% in first year salary but you end paying much more in sanity, poor fit, burnout, or lack of growth opportunities, you won't end out ahead. Get what you're worth in the short term, but be greediest about the long-term.
I had an offer from a Silicon Valley company that would have paid a lot better, but it wasn't full remote (or even hybrid) and I would have had to relocate. So I went into the less well paid no-name with full remote. I tried to negotiate at the beginning with the very real argument of a better paid offer, but they denied. Well, whatever I guess, I tried and full remote was more important to me (still is).
1.5 years later, I realized the environment was a bit too dysfunctional and toxic for my liking and I learned all I wanted there. Fished a new job quite easily a couple weeks ago (several offers), with a bit better pay and a nicer project where I think I can make a better impact and have a nicer environment.
Before I quit I talked with some people and tried to see if they may offer me a better salary. They wanted to keep me and were not happy about me quitting at all, but they were absolutely unable to offer me even just 10k more. What was a bit shocking to me is that HR tried to blame the workers and pointed to a "broken market" for SWEs. I was so taken aback by this delusion that I had no regrets quitting after and I will care even less about "doing it for the team" and I will certainly consider hopping more often again.
So, it highly depends on the company if you can negotiate. However, if you cannot even get the smallest of gestures towards your direction, then that's a pretty big red flag. I don't have regrets. With just 2 years of experience, I'm happy I learn these lessons early on.
My ultimate goal is to start my own company and I'm actively working on that on the side, so hopefully this farce of pretending to care making profits for other people will end soon.
In hindsight this should be a “how I quadrupled my salary” story. But I’m sharing it in case anyone who feels anxious about negotiating is selling themselves way too short. Go get more money. Relax about it unless you don’t want to. You’re gonna get more money regardless.
Unfortunately, this is how most "I tripled my salary in X years" stories look when you dig into the details.
I've spent a lot of time coaching people on interviewing and negotiating. With some people, half the battle is detaching them from their original compensation anchor point and re-centering on real market data.
On the other hand, I've also had to gently convince a lot of eager students that they can't expect $300K full-remote FAANG offers right out of college, despite whatever they heard on Reddit and Blind.
The only unfortunate thing is how many people don’t find their way to the same story. That’s why I shared it the way I did. I thought I was asking a lot, and many people will too. When I just… got it… I realized my negotiating position.
Deleted Comment
1. Hiring a negotiation consultant, and 2. Get offers from 3 FAANGs.
The consultant just told me what to say/email, and I did it. Not sure it would happen now 2 years later.
buried the lede.
securing offers from 3 FAANGs is something very few people can do. that alone is immense leverage.
Nowadays after they cut all those people - yeah, definitely
Deleted Comment
* No US country so 300k+ TC is as rare as hens teeth
* Paid probably top 5% ile local comp I guess
* Equates to about $130kUS TC
* Don’t want to relocate
* A tiny chance of getting one of those coveted “remote” jobs (instead of remote-but jobs where the “but” is being in the US with rights to work there)
How can I go about getting an extra 25% or more from current employer? Remember I wont get a local offer higher than what I am on now unless I time travel and make myself a HFT C++ person, or a senior manager of 1000+ indirect reports.
Now I do get $120k on occasion, as long as it lasts (doesn't always last for long). But how I do it is my competitive advantage, like trading strategies there's not zero but negative incentive for me to generously share it with "everyone". In this area it's everyone for themselves :P
He didn’t tell me anything I didn’t know. But he had it all on the tip of his tongue, but I had to think about it for several hours.