I’ve noticed in myself and anecdotally in others that a lot of stubbornness in conversation simply comes from the desire for validation. Having someone acknowledge what I’m saying is generally enough to get a conversation moving forward, where ignoring or not responding to my input can cause me to fixate until I recognize what I’m doing and break myself out of it.
But if I feel mild validation, even if it is concluded with a “no”, I’m far more likely to consider myself having reacted “humbly” and more openly during the introspection I am forced to have at 3:45am the following morning.
Maybe this was all a tangential comment, but that’s the thought that was sparked by this post.
Absolutely. And you can use that fact to steer conversations on a smoother course.
ME: We need to load the catalogue data into the app for this feature.
SOME IDIOT I WORK WITH: Well that's in the database of course, so that's easy.
ME (inside voice): It's not in the database. Why would you assume it was in the database? Because you are an idiot who makes assumptions.
ME (outside voice): Ah, well if the system was well-structured, of course you would be perfectly correct, but in this case, there is an unfortunate quirk, so, to my great surprise, that data is stored in XML files on this tape archive ...
Just to be contrary, it's possible that you're reading too much into other people's responses if you're actually beating yourself up in the middle of the night about what someone meant or didn't.
Check out existential therapy. I'm not saying this to pathologize or minimize what you're saying, just that it's something I used to suffer from before I realized via (said therapy) that everyone else is just a narcissistic fuck living in their own narrative and they literally don't even remember what you said six hours later. It's very liberating once you absorb that. (obviously, what you write on the internet is forever, but that's kind of why you should be so much less anxious about your conversations IRL).
'People think about you enormously less than you think they think about you' was a really important realisation for my mental wellbeing! It's quite easy to demonstrate too, pick a random person in your life who you don't have a close relationship with and try and remember some random anecdote they mentioned a month ago.
This should be drilled into schoolchildren along with reading and writing I think, many people's teenage years are intensely stressful partially because of this false notion other people remember things you did in perfect detail.
Oh my introspection isn’t self flagellation. I don’t think about ways I could’ve improved my talking. It’s more in the same vein as how I will go back and look at projects I’ve completed a few times after I’ve finished. Or even like listening to a song that has been stuck in my head for a few hours.
It’s a way of closing the loop, mentally. It allows me to move on and not have this subconscious stress nagging at me for weeks after a significant interaction.
But yeah I’ll look into existential therapy. Thanks!
> they literally don't even remember what you said six hours later
This is believable right up until they relate to you what someone else said or did last week or even last month. Then you know that they remember things and are willing to share what they remember with others.
Might be a little bit paradoxical from your perspective but this is very self-centered behavior. If someone tells you ”no”, it’s probably not because they don’t like you. People say no when they don’t want something themselves, and it probably has nothing to do with you or your validation.
Really bad advice. I have learned a lot from people way less experienced than me. Even if I usually know more than some individual I still find things that he may know and I do not.
Let's not talk about classifying an individual as "mediocre". It just seems the old "noble blood" fallacy as if some people is just "better" than others instead of everyone being being complex and with flaws.
Unfortunately this point of view do get to the extreme. "There's no such thing as a gifted child", for example, and schools for gifted children are downgraded or closed. Paths to early math education are closed, math curriculum downgraded.
the gist of the quote is lost in translation i guess. it's trying to convey that you should assert your knowledge, otherwise, you will get lectured by people with no idea what they are talking about. idiocracy, populism, praise of stupidity etc.
Very true. I try to stay humble but at work I definitely have lists of people I always listen to and a (longer) list of people I generally never listen to. Maybe they have a good thought from time to time but I don’t have enough time to listen to all bad ideas to maybe find the one good idea.
It has nothing to do with being humble though. Being humble is about being honest with yourself or others. Learning who to listen to and take advice from is a different problem.
The "mediocre individual" (terminology from the quote above) might still have something valuable to share.
If you fight a drunk person throwing random punches, there might be still a probability to get knocked out because within that randomness there is a probability of a perfect punch.
Experts are often right but occasionally they can be wrong. Skilled competitors often win but occasionally they can lose, even to beginners.
Can you cite this quote in its original language? I'd be interested to read it.
Google translate gives me:
"نتيجة الكثير من التواضع هي أن ينتهي بك الأمر بالاستماع إلى مشورة شخص متوسط المستوى."
[Ibn Khaldun] widely acknowledged to be one of the greatest social scientists of the Middle Ages,[13] who made major contributions in the areas of historiography, sociology, economics, and demography.
A bit unrelated, but one pet peeve of mine these days is the explosion of humble brag.
It used to be a little annoying, but it's now everywhere. Name dropping, inserting casually possessions, social status or achievements, using "I'm humbled by" all the time...
Doing your best to not sound pretentious is great. I wish I worked on that way sooner.
But faking humility, often badly, is such a mood killer for me.
I also think it comes with 2 trends that are rampant in social media, and runs especially deep in the US culture:
- adding virtue signaling to every interaction.
- using superlative for the most mondain things.
It's an instant credibility killer for me. But the problem is... for a lot of people, it seems to work.
Stay off of LinkedIn, then. That seems to be the place people practice it[0].
I don't humblebrag, and it doesn't win me friends. There's some things that I'm really, really good at, and lots of things that I'm mediocre, to really bad, at. I don't hide any of it.
Most folks on venues like this, assume I'm arrogant (I'm not). I just don't pretend to be bad at stuff I'm good at, and don't pretend to be good at stuff I'm bad at.
That seems to be an aberration, in today's world.
I'm not looking for work or friends. I don't participate in any social media, outside of this place (an occasional update on Facebook or LinkedIn. Almost never Twitter, Instagram, etc.). I just hang out here, because there aren't many tech people around my neck of the woods, and I'm quite impressed by many of you. I participate, because I feel a sense of duty to do so (If I want to be a member, I should act like a member).
> There's some things that I'm really, really good at, and lots of things that I'm mediocre, to really bad, at. I don't hide any of it.
That is a very good sign you are intelectually humble. I see the discussion here veering in many directions but in the end being humble is just being honest to yourself and others about what you know and what you don’t know. Perhaps with the capacity to empathise with people who know less and not making them feel bad for not knowing certain things.
I have worked with a number of people who are like that and nobody seems to notice which drives me nuts so it can't be addressed. I have one of those now and I just have to make sure we stay on different teams. The combination of a massive ego and the skill to mask it create a truly terrible person.
As a principle I agree with this but some environments make it possible. If your intellectual humility is almost guaranteed to be used against you as weakness and liability then such hostile environments mean you must at least fake arrogance.
But in my experience, the rare time it was encouraged to say "i don't know" and "I was wrong" were also the times when I was around the most competent and talented people.
I like to think so, but I sure detest the fake humble people, who deny that they know anything. This whole "I know nothing, like, not even that 1+1=2" kind of attitude or this borderline "the universe is holy and I must be in awe of it because it makes me sound deep and that I am humble, when really this is all a show to make others think that I'm intellectually humbler than they are."
I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else, but I just think there's a lot of overweening fake humbleness going on. "Oh, the universe is so big, how can we be so arrogant that we think we know everything, the universe is a wonderous place and we are so small and limited, and blah, blah, blah." Yeah, I get it already. Heard it the first million times how wonderous you think the universe is and how loudly and strenuously you proclaim to know nothing because you heard it is cool to say that you don't know nothing about nothing.
It's like humble bragging, but humble humbling.
I mean, we know that the entire universe's matter is made up of the periodic table through spectroscopy (not counting dark matter, just "regular" matter). It's not like there's going to be whisky atoms or pizza atoms so that there's just a lake of whisky somewhere. You are not going to be able to have animals made of Xenon or Argon or Neon or any of the other noble inert gases.
I think there is a lot of shit to learn and it is fun and interesting and I love it. But there's no reason to act with such fake reverence and like it is a holy universe. It's just flucking stuff that we need to learn about. It's not a god to pray to.
Do you all hate me now that I'm ruining all your universe reverence?
I don't know, man, it just bugs me to no end the whole "we know nothing" bow your head in fake humility thing so you can fit into the "I don't know crowd" and be a popular cool kid, too.
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But if I feel mild validation, even if it is concluded with a “no”, I’m far more likely to consider myself having reacted “humbly” and more openly during the introspection I am forced to have at 3:45am the following morning.
Maybe this was all a tangential comment, but that’s the thought that was sparked by this post.
ME: We need to load the catalogue data into the app for this feature.
SOME IDIOT I WORK WITH: Well that's in the database of course, so that's easy.
ME (inside voice): It's not in the database. Why would you assume it was in the database? Because you are an idiot who makes assumptions.
ME (outside voice): Ah, well if the system was well-structured, of course you would be perfectly correct, but in this case, there is an unfortunate quirk, so, to my great surprise, that data is stored in XML files on this tape archive ...
Check out existential therapy. I'm not saying this to pathologize or minimize what you're saying, just that it's something I used to suffer from before I realized via (said therapy) that everyone else is just a narcissistic fuck living in their own narrative and they literally don't even remember what you said six hours later. It's very liberating once you absorb that. (obviously, what you write on the internet is forever, but that's kind of why you should be so much less anxious about your conversations IRL).
This should be drilled into schoolchildren along with reading and writing I think, many people's teenage years are intensely stressful partially because of this false notion other people remember things you did in perfect detail.
It’s a way of closing the loop, mentally. It allows me to move on and not have this subconscious stress nagging at me for weeks after a significant interaction.
But yeah I’ll look into existential therapy. Thanks!
This is believable right up until they relate to you what someone else said or did last week or even last month. Then you know that they remember things and are willing to share what they remember with others.
Deleted Comment
Ibn Khaldun (1332-1406)
Let's not talk about classifying an individual as "mediocre". It just seems the old "noble blood" fallacy as if some people is just "better" than others instead of everyone being being complex and with flaws.
Yes, it happens just now in America.
The people you listen to is always right and the ones you don't listen to are always wrong?
If you fight a drunk person throwing random punches, there might be still a probability to get knocked out because within that randomness there is a probability of a perfect punch.
Experts are often right but occasionally they can be wrong. Skilled competitors often win but occasionally they can lose, even to beginners.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Khaldun
… are unclear translations revealing biases?
It used to be a little annoying, but it's now everywhere. Name dropping, inserting casually possessions, social status or achievements, using "I'm humbled by" all the time...
Doing your best to not sound pretentious is great. I wish I worked on that way sooner.
But faking humility, often badly, is such a mood killer for me.
I also think it comes with 2 trends that are rampant in social media, and runs especially deep in the US culture:
- adding virtue signaling to every interaction.
- using superlative for the most mondain things.
It's an instant credibility killer for me. But the problem is... for a lot of people, it seems to work.
I don't humblebrag, and it doesn't win me friends. There's some things that I'm really, really good at, and lots of things that I'm mediocre, to really bad, at. I don't hide any of it.
Most folks on venues like this, assume I'm arrogant (I'm not). I just don't pretend to be bad at stuff I'm good at, and don't pretend to be good at stuff I'm bad at.
That seems to be an aberration, in today's world.
I'm not looking for work or friends. I don't participate in any social media, outside of this place (an occasional update on Facebook or LinkedIn. Almost never Twitter, Instagram, etc.). I just hang out here, because there aren't many tech people around my neck of the woods, and I'm quite impressed by many of you. I participate, because I feel a sense of duty to do so (If I want to be a member, I should act like a member).
[0] https://twitter.com/StateOfLinkedIn
I won't share mine (this is a professional venue, and my "viral" post was definitely not professional).
That is a very good sign you are intelectually humble. I see the discussion here veering in many directions but in the end being humble is just being honest to yourself and others about what you know and what you don’t know. Perhaps with the capacity to empathise with people who know less and not making them feel bad for not knowing certain things.
But in my experience, the rare time it was encouraged to say "i don't know" and "I was wrong" were also the times when I was around the most competent and talented people.
From the original(?) Swedish: "Jag är inte bara störst, bäst och vackrast, jag är ödmjukast också!"
(Non-standard use of "-est" superlative forms in English for consistency, effect, and fidelity.)
- Humility -
Humility is not letting someone win
or pretending not to care when you lose.
It is not feigned ignorance or polite dishonesty.
Humility is not a trick to gain approval,
nor is it an abdication of your pride.
---
Humility is a stand taken to the end
with passion; an opinion that you choose
and live by with conviction and integrity,
but if shown to be in error in part or full,
and that the truth not be on your side...
---
you change your mind.
---
And furthermore you admit it publicly
and you learn from it internally.
Never let passion to stand up for truth fade.
Don't let desire for becoming right be outweighed
by undeserved pride.
---
Sincere pride,
real humility,
true integrity;
they are one and the same.
---
The true integrity is tough and admits its errors
Value your sincerity enough to live your values
Only then is real pride obtained
or the admiration of anyone,
whose opinion is worth a damn,
gained.
I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else, but I just think there's a lot of overweening fake humbleness going on. "Oh, the universe is so big, how can we be so arrogant that we think we know everything, the universe is a wonderous place and we are so small and limited, and blah, blah, blah." Yeah, I get it already. Heard it the first million times how wonderous you think the universe is and how loudly and strenuously you proclaim to know nothing because you heard it is cool to say that you don't know nothing about nothing.
It's like humble bragging, but humble humbling.
I mean, we know that the entire universe's matter is made up of the periodic table through spectroscopy (not counting dark matter, just "regular" matter). It's not like there's going to be whisky atoms or pizza atoms so that there's just a lake of whisky somewhere. You are not going to be able to have animals made of Xenon or Argon or Neon or any of the other noble inert gases.
I think there is a lot of shit to learn and it is fun and interesting and I love it. But there's no reason to act with such fake reverence and like it is a holy universe. It's just flucking stuff that we need to learn about. It's not a god to pray to.
Do you all hate me now that I'm ruining all your universe reverence?
I don't know, man, it just bugs me to no end the whole "we know nothing" bow your head in fake humility thing so you can fit into the "I don't know crowd" and be a popular cool kid, too.