As a Linux laptop user, I used Thinkpads for years. The pinnacle was the T460s/T490s models from around 2016, because they:
- Ran Linux without much tinkering or major compromises
- small (14")
- affordable (around $1300 for my config)
- lightweight and thin
- powerful (I had a Core i5)
- upgrade-able (I had 48gb of RAM)
They started going downhill after that, primarily in that I could no longer find a Thinkpad model that was at the intersection of upgrade-able and Linux compatibility.
Around 2021 I started looking for an alternative. Looked at made-for-Linux laptops like System76 and the various Linux-certified Dells. Couldn't find anything that checked all my boxes and the Dells were particularly crippled: 8GB of soldered on RAM? Only certified to work if you use their custom hacked Ubuntu image? No thanks.
The Framework (gen11, DIY edition) was exactly what I was looking for. My configuration at the time was $1032 and I've been running Manjaro Linux on it continuously for the past year on it with zero problems. It's just good solid generic hardware at a fair price. It's cheap enough that I don't worry about it getting lost or stolen. It's repairable so I don't worry about something physically breaking.
I have since bought another one for an employee and over the next few years I plan on deploying them to my whole team.
Basically I should be a testimonial on their website.
I have a T14s Gen 1 for work, and it runs flawlessly Linux without major tinkering using Arch. Everything from sleep, display output, fingerprint reader, wifi, bluetooth, trackpad works out of the box and pretty darn well.
And I'm rocking a Dell XPS 9570 for personal use, still on arch, no real issue there neither. Well except the Nvidia gpu using prime that needed a truckload of work to get to work, but that's not Dell's fault.
So yeah, in my experience, a quick google search for systemic problems (bios related) of the laptop, its wifi chip support, etc, is enough to tell whether a laptop is fit for linux.
I really wanted to get a framework as this new one was announced. But… the glossy screen was a no-go (also the lack of dedicated home/end keys). I went with an x1 carbon gen 9 instead (replacing my thinkpad t440s). Flawless so far with Linux. I’m sure it will last me 5+ years.
Stinks that such little (yet significant) things kept me from the framework!
Maybe it sounds better if you look at it this way: if every Framework laptop you buy gets stolen halfway through its useful lifetime, it's still cheaper than owning Macbook Pros.
It depends where you live! I've lost laptops to guys with knives, guys with guns, mysterious cat burglars... hence my preference for easily replaceable ~$500 used Thinkpads.
The Dell XPS Developer Edition ones have always worked well for me with Linux, I never used the stock Ubuntu, and the hardware works really well and they actually do deliver firmware updates through fwupd for many years - I won’t defend the landfill future of the hardware and lack of user upgrade/ replacement, but I’ve had great success with Elementary OS and Arch on them.
Also I have had to use a Mac more recently for work, and I miss my XPS running well with Docker, and I find it hilarious that with MacBooks you need the new M processor models to be able to run Docker workloads without the fans blasting!
These are fair points. It's probably more accurate to say that I didn't give the Dells a completely fair shake on their "works with Linux" cred because I couldn't get past the lack of user upgrade and/or the cost to actually buy one. At one point I did buy a Precision 7000 series that wasn't certified for Linux, hoping I'd be able to get it running anyway, and it was a nightmare that ended in a return/refund: the whole machine would literally lock up hard upon waking from s2 sleep. It was upon researching the problem that I discovered the nature of Dell's "we won't actually support Linux on any laptop unless it's a specific model and you're running our specific build of Ubuntu, beyond that you're on your own, YMMV" and gave up. Framework still says "you're on your own" but they're also working furiously behind the scenes to make Linux as close to first-class-citizen as possible. Framework knows their customer.
I use a mac and a thinkpad for two clients. Great machines.
I had an XPS for 1.5 years, with terrible chassis issues that got worse and worse until typing would cause it to freeze.
I use a Framework for my daily driver and I couldn't be happier! I do have the occasional issue with a WD-SN850 that causes freezing, but that isn't due to Framework specifically.
I completely agree in nearly every respect. Especially notable is the fact that they sell replacement hinges. Considering that every one of my preceding non-Apple laptops has failed at the hinge, this is huge.
Support for suspend in linux is definitely shaky, but a (eventually fixable) firmware issue. On the other hand, I am concerned with the company's commitment to upgradability. Since they announced the 2nd generation motherboard some months back, the only way to get one has been with a brand new laptop around it.
Yeah I mean, even on the Framework I basically gave up on suspend. It wasn't freezing on the Framework like it was on the Dell, but there were definitely instances of things not working correctly upon wake, or with the machine never going to sleep, or with the machine waking itself, or with the battery draining too fast even in s2/deep. Switched to hibernate and I've been very happy.
I'm really curious about this failing at the hinges. Do you have thought about why this happens to you with all laptops. Is your use case to carry it around at the screen a lot? I never has such a damage or failure.
I bough a high-end X1 carbon because I wanted to keep it for a long time and I trusted Lenovo. While I loved it and was very satisfied, it turns out that the main board suddenly died after 2 years, and it was not repairable.
They do not provide any post-warranty support (even paid) and do not sell spare parts.
Now I'm back to a desktop PC that I built myself and can repair or upgrade however I want.
Other people with these requirements may want to look at HP Pro and EliteBooks, if they're willing to put up with dubious screens (they're fairly OK for coding work, I guess).
They're repairable in that HP has repair manuals on their public site, complete with disassembly instructions and part numbers. Never had to replace anything, so I don't know how easy it would be to actually source the parts.
Most importantly, they are also one of the few to have AMD models without any soldered RAM, and they don't insist on HP branded RAM either.
Linux works great on these. The worst I had was an older ProBook whose fingerprint sensor was unsupported. On my current one, it works 100% under Linux, while on Windows I can't get the webcam to work.
I just bought a current ProBook (445 G8) and the fingerprint sensor also seems to be unsupported. Great laptop otherwise though so far!
I'll probably get rid of it in favor of a framework once they sort out their battery troubles either by getting ryzens or intel stepping up their efficiency game though.
They certainly have continued to take away nice features, stability, and build quality over the years. The "last good ThinkPad" is different for many. As you said the T42 or around there for pre-Lenovo, T400 for libreboot support, T420 for old keyboard, T430 for old charger/body design, T440p for last gen with socketed CPU and for coreboot support, T480 for last gen with a removable battery I think... But at the same time they've removed indicator lights, certain ports, I'm not even sure if there's a magnesium rollcage anymore.
I have a P15s for work and my initial model would hard freeze when putting pressure in certain spots. I used an external keyboard/mouse mostly, but it'd still happen occasionally. Eventually got a tech sent out and he swapped the motherboard. I think it's fixed, but I still touch it as little as possible and use external peripherals.
Some people defend modern ThinkPads saying they still beat the competition. I'd like to think the bar is higher than that considering some of what's out there.
My take on all this is that x86 is on its way out anyway, so I'm trying to make my T440p last and will try to go with ARM or RISC-V for my next machine. Likely just an M2 Max MacBook Pro when available. Hopefully Asahi support is pretty good by then.
The Framework is sort of cool, but it's just another modern Intel machine at the same time. Guts aside, they're doing a good job, but the guts are pretty important, and in this case, boring. The MNT Reform is a lot more interesting, although I don't know if any particularly performant SoMs are available for it yet. I'd like something with better performance than my Pinebook Pro if possible. The RK3399 is not quite Main Machine material.
I never really liked Thinkpads to begin with. The texture on their plastics makes my skin crawl. When I was working IT at the end of the '00s, I found Latitudes were a lot easier to repair and more durable.
My personal story is that I'll never use Lenovo, because of their crap website and customer service.
I tried ordering one of their laptops back around 2015 on their website. The cart just straight up broke during checkout. Tried contacting support - no response.
2 weeks later they emailed me asking how my purchasing experience was (hilarious that they couldn't tell the purchase actually didn't go through, because the card wasn't charged)
Was literally throwing money at them trying to buy their product, but I guess they didn't want it. So I'm never giving them a cent of it again.
I like that someone else is still using a T420. I'm using the one I bought for college back in 2011. I've been running fedora on it since fedora 17 I believe. I preordered a framework a couple months ago though and it's suppose to ship in August. It'll be a sad day when I shut down my thinkpad for the last time.
I've had my framework for about six months, and it's been an incredibly mixed bag. This isn't a bad laptop by any means, but it's not been a panacea either.
The battery life, as other have mentioned, is poor.
The Linux support is "OK", and improved greatly when I upgraded to the latest Ubuntu and what I assume is a host of updated proprietary drivers.
But the system also got regularly stuck in a mode where it wouldn't wake up from sleep, for weeks, until one day it simply couldn't be woken up, even after having no power. Tech support was competent, but slow, with replies every next business day.
Resetting the sleep situation also required taking the unit apart, which seems silly.
And one of the dongles that it comes with, the USB-A one, totally flaked out on me.
And at the end of the day, while repairability is lovely, so is a tech support line you can call and talk to a human being, so is a depot you can send the laptop to, and so is being able to pay for a repair person to come and fix my work machine.
These are premium asks, the repair person in particular, and I know that big companies like Dell and Lenovo can only offer them based on bulk sales, but I'd be willing to pay for this, but it's not offered.
Right now, the laptop is good, but I wouldn't buy one. They say their next model will have better Linux support, and be better in other ways. I'd wait for that and hope that Framework also works out a better tech support system.
"I bought this user repairable laptop and they don't offer an on-site repair service. Also one of the USB ports burned out and it cost me $9 for a replacement. Absolutely terrible"
I ran into a similar issue. It took a Google search plus following a nicely documented guide to reset, and I was back at it. Way easier fix process than dealing with <PC Laptop Manufacturing Company> support.
That's a lovely idea, but I simply don't have the ability to do that.
I think it's great that we're able to fix our own machines, and I think it's wonderful to teach people to fix their own machines, but it's ablist to assume everyone has the ability to do so. I don't.
Moreover, there are lots of people who support Right to Repair but don't want to have to repair their own equipment. Wouldn't it be lovely to be able to take your computer down to a repair shop or have someone come over and fix it?
It cost more than a macbook ARM, and you get less perf, worse battery, worse cooling, and less support, yes you get to repair it yourself and more easily, but i never had to repair my macbooks (other than changing the battery, and that was easy to do myself, and looks like it is still easy on the ARM ones https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l_Dw_5_JJk)
It's likely limitations of the drivers for the underlying hardware they were able to source in quantity and at the right price. Some of the highest-volume manufacturers have traditionally also been bad about Linux drivers (looking at you, Broadcom).
Understanding that this company wants to change a whole industry with the idea that laptops are not disposable products and is competing against giants, I am reading your list of very minor complains about one of their first results as an attestation of an incredible success.
It is time to choose, brothers and sister - do you want to be the problem or do you want to be the solution?
The battery life of my Linux Framework is ~6 hours after tuning, but it has required real time to tune it and a little bit of attention to crack down on runaway processes (mostly web threads)
Been using a Framework laptop for close to a year and loving every minute of it!
Installed 64GB of RAM and a high-performance 2TB NVMe for less than half of a comparable Macbook Pro. Plus, I get to run Linux! It worked right out of the box with almost zero configuration.
To be completely fair, the battery that it comes with is a bit on the small side, so that's the main criticism I have (battery life).
All told, I can't see myself ever going back to using an Apple laptop (voluntarily). I do get jealous of the M1/M2 processor specifically at times, but MacOS is a dumpster fire and I refuse to use it. Plus, having used a proper tiling window manager on a laptop now (i3), I can't imagine going back.
I'm with you, I have two Macbooks I deeply regret buying because at this point they just sit in a pile unused because they are just so annoying to use.
I'm in the market now for a replacement for my old 15" thinkpad that I've been using but just haven't really found anything. I seem to be in some weird middle ground that nobody caters too because everything is either 13" or 16".
i3 really is the killer feature for me. I'm on an M1 Mac for work, and I wouldn't say MacOS is a dumpster fire, but I'm really missing i3. There are things I've tried that get close but it's not the same.
For what it's worth, my "dumpster fire" comment encompassed far more than just window management (and admittedly extended to Apple hardware and Apple the company). See my comments elsewhere in the thread if you're curious!
Re window management specifically: your "it's not the same" comment are my exact sentiments!
Even if you can hack together some other MacOS-specific window management solution, what I'm finding game-changing is my laptop and my desktop behaving in the exact same way (same OS, same dotfiles, same programs/bins/utils).
Not only "behaving" in the same way, but also configured in the same way (meaning I don't have to maintain two separate configurations for two entirely different managers).
I don't know, I realize my perspective isn't shared by everyone (and even the HN audience specifically), but I'll probably never go back to using a laptop without Linux on it. For a long time, I avoided going down that path because I knew how big of a PITA getting laptop device/drivers to work was (whereas it's generally far simpler on desktop), but that's become less and less the case over the years, to the point that I spend less time configuring Linux than I do overriding all of MacOS's default settings/configuration.
Not OP but my biggest issue is: windowing system is extremely basic (no window snapping/tiling) and smooth scrolling doesn't work with 3rd party mice. I need smooth scrolling due to visual impairment and have to use the stupid Magic Mouse instead of my MX Master 3 when I'm on MacOS.
EDIT: I should point out that, although I don't like MacOS, I ditched Apple-related products first and foremost because of both the hardware itself and the company.
Every Apple product I've owned has failed in some spectacular way, and Apple's response is typically something along the lines of "You're SoL dude, you can either recycle it and buy a new product, or you can pay us something close to the value of the device to repair it" (because they solder everything unnecessarily).
Framework finally came along and showed that you can have a sleek, elegant (and modular!) design without soldering everything together in the name of reducing weight by 0.01kg or whatever (or making it a hair-width thinner).
Most recently, I had a 2019 Macbook Pro ($3K) that would frequently give me a "red screen of death" under load and crap out completely.
Before that, a brand new 2018 Macbook Pro I bought (for nearly $3K mind you) became unusable within an hour after taking it out of the box because of the faulty keyboard (several keys either didn't register key presses, or they would turn one key press into multiple occurrences of the same letter).
Before that, I had a Thunderbolt Display ($1K) that would fail intermittently, and it took 5 trips to the Apple store before they finally gave me a new one.
Before that, I had a 2014 Macbook Pro for which the screen started peeling off -- I had to buy a matte screen protector to even be able to see the screen.
I have several more examples as I go back in time further, but you get the gist! In all cases, they're widely known problems that Apple refuses to acknowledge, and assuming they're even willing to do anything about it, they want you to hand over your laptop to them for ~2 weeks in the meantime.
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Original response:
I'll eventually get around to writing a blog post about this (tm) and HN isn't really the place to fully brain dump, but off of the top of my head, here's a few examples:
- My ".osx" dotfiles (then, now ".macos") would break with every OS upgrade. As an example, I preferred to set a very fast key repeat with a very short delay, and I remember one version of OSX/MacOS that just decided to start ignoring that completely (or resetting it every restart or something, I forget).
- As a TL;DR point that summarizes many frustrations, I'd end up changing almost all of the default settings, to the point that I realized that I wasn't their target customer. For instance, I'd promptly disable all of their elaborate transitions and animations (which effectively added a latency to interacting with the system), hide the dock in perpetuity, etc etc... I haven't used MacOS in a few years, so I'm unable to refresh myself on what else I would change.
- Their window management is SO stupid (IMHO), especially once you start incorporating monitors.
- At least historically (unsure now), there was no way to differentiate the scroll behavior with the trackpad vs an external mouse. I did like the "natural" scrolling or whatever, as it felt very intuitive having used smartphones for many years. However, any time I connected a wireless mouse (primarily for gaming), it'd behave the same way (completely unintuitive), and there was no way to change it to be different. So I'd then have to either design for the least common denominator ("scrollwheel behavior"), or change that setting every single time I used an external mouse and remember to revert it when I'm done. A small nit, but one of tens of examples of annoyances.
I could go on, but like I mentioned, this isn't really the place! Just a few examples as a taste :)
What kind of expertise is needed for you guys to have a trackpoint in the keyboard?
There's a vocal minority of people (I count myself in) that really, really like trackpoints and would love to have a Framework laptop with this kind of pointing device. I think it would be more productive (or perhaps its wishful thinking on my part) for you people to say something like "we need to shave x mm from the Thinkpad one to match or requirement" or "we need x dollar to hire someone / to let our product engineer spend y amount of time on this project.
(and I'm of course ignoring the dozen or so patents that probably prevent you to implement this... but I really really like trackpoints)
The barrier is primarily tooling costs. We'd have to have high enough confidence in the incremental sales of it to cover what would likely be in the mid six digits of custom tooling (Input Cover plastic and aluminum tooling, tooling for a three button trackpad, tooling for a new version of the keyboard with a cutout for a pointing stick, and a small amount of tooling for a semicustom pointing stick to fit that cutout).
I agree with the sibling comment. There's no real alternative to the trackpoint. Nothing comes close, but the initial hour or so of using it is weird ; frankly, I don't remember it because I did it about 20 years or so ago, but everywhere I've worked, I've made sure to buy a keyboard with a trackpoint.
Currently I'm using the Tex shinobi keyboard, and before that I used the IBM USB keyboard with the X220 layout.
When navigating with the mouse on the web, I currently have my thumb for the mouse buttons, my index finger on the trackpoint, and middle, ring, and index for movement on the HJKL keys. Nothing beats that for speed and hand movement a mouse is a little more accurate, but I'm willing to trade that for not moving my hand all the time. (I also just realized I switch hands a lot for moving the mouse - not something you can do with a mouse.)
Do you think the Tex Shinobi is worth its price? I'm familiar with the Thinkpad X200 keyboard and interested in the Tex Shinobi, but find it a bit hard to justify spending that much on a keyboard. (I am a software engineer and do spend a lot of time on keyboards and I do value a good keyboard.)
I had my first TrackPoint contact when I joined IBM. They gave me a ThinkPad 755CD. They still owned the PC Division. There was no touchpad, so it took me about 30~60 minutes to get used to the trackpoint (maybe less). Since them I have had countless ThinkPads, personal and at work, an I always disable the touchpad entirely. I am sure that if most people had to use the trackpoint, they won't want to go back.
I was really into using my trackpoint until suddenly my index finger literally started trembling uncontrollably whenever I tried using it. I think its because it requires too much force to move the cursor or I guess my ligaments are that weak although Im still young. Sadly had to give up using it since it was quite convenient
Trackpoint was so vastly superior to touchpads for the majority of the existence of the laptop that it's only natural that people that were computing when that was the case just completely eschew the touchpad on their laptop, even to this day. That plus the fact that there's little impetus to change (unless you force yourself by purchasing a laptop without a nub).
With that being said, I think Apple finally nailed the trackpad. It's far better than those original trackpads that came on ThinkPads that was so comically small you couldn't really use it on top of absolutely horrendous drivers. I think for the most part trackpads on Windows laptops are pretty competent as well, at least on the higher end models. Windows precision drivers went a long way to matching the experience of using a trackpad on the Mac. On Linux the basics are mostly fine though it's still kind of a mixed bag.
I thought I preferred trackpoint; turns out I don't.
How do you scroll with the trackpoint? I have a ThinkPad and the trackpoint is nice, but I always end up back on the touchpad for two finger scrolling. I used to use scroll bars, but they are so small these days that they’re really only useful as an indication of where you are in a document.
But today trackpads are really good, especially the ones that ship on MacBooks. I can't imagine going back to the trackpoint any more than I can imagine going back to the trackpads of the '00s. Good multitouch gestures in particular make a trackpad way more versatile and improve my productivity a lot.
non-ironically, this is the last thing that is giving me doubts between going for the frame.work for my next laptop or sticking to old-trustworthy thinkpads.
Just to add support to this sentiment, I am also pretty on the fence but I think a trackpoint would push me over. I've used Thinkpads for the last 7 years and I'm looking to buy a new laptop soon (in the next 1-2 years). If framework adds a trackpoint, I will buy it.
Since you can buy seperate keyboard parts... and if you don't mind a bit of drilling / replacing some keys with custom keys / manual fixing of damaged traces on the pcbs...
Just drill a hole in the keyboard, file it off, and buy a trackpoint module from ebay, It'd probably work well enough!
- - -
that aside, making an expansion card which has a trackpoint on it, or notching it into just above the keyboard area, would probably be the most doable options, without needing the company to catch up
I don’t use my thinkpad’s trackpoint all the time, but it’s excellent for cramped situations where you don’t have the space for the arm movements required to use a trackpad effectively. If nothing else it’s an extremely good feature for a mobility-focused machine.
I've had my 11th gen Framework for ~ 5 months now and I really want to love it but I've stopped recommending it to others because of the battery issues.
The biggest problem is that it drains 1-2% per hour in deep sleep on Linux. That means if you leave it asleep in your bag after work it will be between 15-30% lower when you go to use it the next morning. People on the forums[0] are even seeing up to a 4% per hour drain. I don't know what is common with other laptops but I can't say I've ever had to think about sleep drain before.
I've just ordered the 12th gen board upgrade with fingers crossed it helps but really consider going back to a ThinkPad X1 Carbon.
We've been able to reach <0.5%/hour on Linux with 12th Gen and recent kernels. There are also some additional firmware optimizations we're working on to resolve higher s0ix drain with different combinations of Expansion Cards inserted that keep the retimers from going into a suspend state.
On 11th Gen and 12th Gen, one of the other major drivers of s0ix drain we have seen is SSDs with firmware issues that keep them in higher power states in suspend. Updating SSD firmware is challenging on Linux, so if you are unable to do that, there is also a workaround to change a kernel parameter which we have seen result in <1%/hour drain on 11th Gen: https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Ubuntu+22.04+LTS+Installatio...
FWIW, my sleep drain issue (on 11th gen) got noticeably better once I replaced my USB-A and HDMI modules with USB-C. Now I just have 4 USB-C modules. I did try updating SSD firmware before that, but I don't believe that had an impact. I'm not sure whether it was HDMI or USB-A or both that was the issue.
I run the latest kernel (5.16.16 currently) on Arch.
I've turned just about every knob and kernel parameter I can, only use the USB C expansion cards, kernel is 5.18.12, and my Samsung 980 Pro is on the latest firmware (5B2QGXA7) so I look forward to what the 12th Gen board can do.
Have you tried configuring suspend-then-hibernate with a very short timer (e.g., 10 or 30 minutes)? The configuration for it is shipped with systemd these days, so all you have to do is turn it on and set the timer length. With fast SSDs, resume from hibernate is not very painful.
That should let you close your laptop and open it in a few days without any big issue, even if S0ix continues to suck.
Configuring suspend-then-hibernate is a pain on both Fedora and Ubuntu for different reasons: Fedora uses zswap by default and Ubuntu's swap partition is too small.
The deep sleep power drain is really annoying, but on the bright side those power tuning tips let me go through an entire 8 hour workday from a full charge. At least until I need to test things on an Android emulator.
I have this issue with a Dell XPS 13 (2021) with Ubuntu, I read in several places this is common problem among modern Intel based laptops, even in Windows.
I've been using a Framework (11 gen, DIY edition) for the last year. I love the company, the idea, the repairability, almost all of it. But I've had 4 major issues:
- Installing the WiFi card was crazy difficult. The antenna connectors are tiny, fragile, and require significant pressure to snap on. I had to use a pair of pliers to get it on and I was very concerned about breaking or bending something
- The screen hinge is weak and not adjustable. It'll stay in position when it's on a table, but picking the laptop up and walking anywhere with it inevitably ends up with the screen open to 180 degrees.
- The space bar is inconsistent. Especially with my right hand. I've had to develop a typing habit where I type spaces with my left hand or hard with my right hand to get it to register. Otherwisemywritingendsuplookinglikethis.
- The touchpad isn't great. My work machines have been MacBooks, so maybe I'm spoiled. But I disable touch to click. And clicking to click is also inconsistent. I ended up having to click extra hard.
These are annoyances really, and I don't use it often enough for these to matter. But if it was my daily driver I'd have done something about it by now.
On the WiFi, we switched to pre-installing the card with antennas attached when we launched in Europe last year, and are continuing that for all configurations of 12th Gen. We agree it is too finicky.
On the hinges, could you reach out to our support team? We had a set of out of spec hinges come from our supplier, and it is possible that is what you are seeing. The team can also help you out on any issues you're seeing on your keyboard or trackpad.
Yeah, I'll try to get to it. Like I said it hasn't been a huge issue. I did read up on the forums about the hinges, since someone had the same complaint as me. IIRC the response was along the lines of "Adjustable tension on the hinges? Huh. That's a good idea. Maybe one day we'll do it."
> we switched to pre-installing the card with antennas attached
That's really good to hear. I assumed I had to do it because I got the DIY edition and that I essentially got what I asked for.
> Installing the WiFi card was crazy difficult. The antenna connectors are tiny, fragile, and require significant pressure to snap on. I had to use a pair of pliers to get it on and I was very concerned about breaking or bending something
I don't have a Framework, but that's how installing mobile WiFi cards has always felt to me. IME those connectors are sturdier than you'd think, but I never use tweezers or apply pressure on the wire other than at the joint, from directly above, with a finger.
I've been running a DIY model for about a year as well. My only complaint was likewise that installing the wifi antenna was _very_ tricky. I briefly thought I had broken it before it finally came together for me. (It sounds like they've mitigated this issue by now, so that's great.)
I also had a few of the Linux issues that others have mentioned, but upgrading to the newest Ubuntu solved them.
Overall a fantastic machine, and probably my favorite laptop I've ever owned.
> The touchpad isn't great. My work machines have been MacBooks, so maybe I'm spoiled. But I disable touch to click. And clicking to click is also inconsistent. I ended up having to click extra hard.
pressing on a touch pad has always annoyed me.
on my laptops i always remap capslock -> (ctrl|cmd), and (ctrl|cmd) -> mouse click.
I'm looking forward to the product maturing a little. If they can fix annoyances like this, improve port density and provide a better Ethernet port (that doesn't stick out) I'll start buying 'em.
I got the DIY edition of this a few months ago and have been using it continuously since then. Nice piece of hardware and I'm glad I bought it. Only big thing missing for me is user-modifiable firmware. Combine this thing with the Coreboot and neutralized Intel ME of Purism's products, and I would have no reason to use anything else. Currently this has a typical proprietary EFI firmware and no legacy BIOS support, which I wouldn't expect most people to care about but I find it a bit annoying.
I've also had some issues with the CPU temperature consistently pushing into the 90s when running big multicore workloads. Not sure why. Rather than look into applying new thermal paste or whatever, I just turned off Intel turbo boost, this is of course a performance hit but it keeps the whole thing very cool and improves battery life.
Glad to hear that you're enjoying it! On the CPU temperatures, Boost will deliberately and safely let the CPU run up to a maximum of 60W and 100C for a short period of time at the start of heavy load before dropping back to 28W (11th Gen) or 30W (12th Gen).
On an open UEFI solution, that is on our long term roadmap, and we're currently hiring for firmware positions to speed up kicking off this work. Edit: Also, our Embedded Controller firmware is open, though that is somewhat orthogonal to UEFI: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/EmbeddedController
What doesn't get mentioned is the amazing support provided by the Framework team. From their community board [1] to their customer support, these folks love their customers. From the CEO (Nirav), to their system engineer (Kieran) and all in-between, drop in to answer questions and help solve issues. The community forum is akin to Arch Wiki. You find some gems of replies to technical issues that are unparalleled across the net.
Best laptop support experience ever. Best laptop ever. Verge, "Generic looking" as a con? AYFKM?
Readit News
- Ran Linux without much tinkering or major compromises
- small (14")
- affordable (around $1300 for my config)
- lightweight and thin
- powerful (I had a Core i5)
- upgrade-able (I had 48gb of RAM)
They started going downhill after that, primarily in that I could no longer find a Thinkpad model that was at the intersection of upgrade-able and Linux compatibility.
Around 2021 I started looking for an alternative. Looked at made-for-Linux laptops like System76 and the various Linux-certified Dells. Couldn't find anything that checked all my boxes and the Dells were particularly crippled: 8GB of soldered on RAM? Only certified to work if you use their custom hacked Ubuntu image? No thanks.
The Framework (gen11, DIY edition) was exactly what I was looking for. My configuration at the time was $1032 and I've been running Manjaro Linux on it continuously for the past year on it with zero problems. It's just good solid generic hardware at a fair price. It's cheap enough that I don't worry about it getting lost or stolen. It's repairable so I don't worry about something physically breaking.
I have since bought another one for an employee and over the next few years I plan on deploying them to my whole team.
Basically I should be a testimonial on their website.
And I'm rocking a Dell XPS 9570 for personal use, still on arch, no real issue there neither. Well except the Nvidia gpu using prime that needed a truckload of work to get to work, but that's not Dell's fault.
So yeah, in my experience, a quick google search for systemic problems (bios related) of the laptop, its wifi chip support, etc, is enough to tell whether a laptop is fit for linux.
Stinks that such little (yet significant) things kept me from the framework!
Can't consider anything else because I'm addicted to the TrackPoint.
> It's cheap enough that I don't worry about it getting lost or stolen.
Not sure if this is impressive or reckless, but either way it doesn’t apply to most people.
Also I have had to use a Mac more recently for work, and I miss my XPS running well with Docker, and I find it hilarious that with MacBooks you need the new M processor models to be able to run Docker workloads without the fans blasting!
I’d love to try a Framework too though.
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I had an XPS for 1.5 years, with terrible chassis issues that got worse and worse until typing would cause it to freeze.
I use a Framework for my daily driver and I couldn't be happier! I do have the occasional issue with a WD-SN850 that causes freezing, but that isn't due to Framework specifically.
Maybe it's just specific models with the hardware limitations?
Support for suspend in linux is definitely shaky, but a (eventually fixable) firmware issue. On the other hand, I am concerned with the company's commitment to upgradability. Since they announced the 2nd generation motherboard some months back, the only way to get one has been with a brand new laptop around it.
(I have had multiple over the years and have had zero issues)
The other models I can't say much about. But the yogas are not Linux compatible
They do not provide any post-warranty support (even paid) and do not sell spare parts.
Now I'm back to a desktop PC that I built myself and can repair or upgrade however I want.
They're repairable in that HP has repair manuals on their public site, complete with disassembly instructions and part numbers. Never had to replace anything, so I don't know how easy it would be to actually source the parts.
Most importantly, they are also one of the few to have AMD models without any soldered RAM, and they don't insist on HP branded RAM either.
Linux works great on these. The worst I had was an older ProBook whose fingerprint sensor was unsupported. On my current one, it works 100% under Linux, while on Windows I can't get the webcam to work.
I'll probably get rid of it in favor of a framework once they sort out their battery troubles either by getting ryzens or intel stepping up their efficiency game though.
I had a T42 in 2008 and read Thinkpads already went downhill back then.
I have a P15s for work and my initial model would hard freeze when putting pressure in certain spots. I used an external keyboard/mouse mostly, but it'd still happen occasionally. Eventually got a tech sent out and he swapped the motherboard. I think it's fixed, but I still touch it as little as possible and use external peripherals.
Some people defend modern ThinkPads saying they still beat the competition. I'd like to think the bar is higher than that considering some of what's out there.
My take on all this is that x86 is on its way out anyway, so I'm trying to make my T440p last and will try to go with ARM or RISC-V for my next machine. Likely just an M2 Max MacBook Pro when available. Hopefully Asahi support is pretty good by then.
The Framework is sort of cool, but it's just another modern Intel machine at the same time. Guts aside, they're doing a good job, but the guts are pretty important, and in this case, boring. The MNT Reform is a lot more interesting, although I don't know if any particularly performant SoMs are available for it yet. I'd like something with better performance than my Pinebook Pro if possible. The RK3399 is not quite Main Machine material.
I tried ordering one of their laptops back around 2015 on their website. The cart just straight up broke during checkout. Tried contacting support - no response.
2 weeks later they emailed me asking how my purchasing experience was (hilarious that they couldn't tell the purchase actually didn't go through, because the card wasn't charged)
Was literally throwing money at them trying to buy their product, but I guess they didn't want it. So I'm never giving them a cent of it again.
Thin is a _problem_! Thin means:
1. The design of everything needs to be warped to fit in - less opportunities for modularization and more contortion needed for disassembly.
2. Bad keyboard with almost no key travel
> They started going downhill after that
I would say the X220 era is where things started going downhill. Although some might argue that it was even earlier.
The battery life, as other have mentioned, is poor.
The Linux support is "OK", and improved greatly when I upgraded to the latest Ubuntu and what I assume is a host of updated proprietary drivers.
But the system also got regularly stuck in a mode where it wouldn't wake up from sleep, for weeks, until one day it simply couldn't be woken up, even after having no power. Tech support was competent, but slow, with replies every next business day.
Resetting the sleep situation also required taking the unit apart, which seems silly.
And one of the dongles that it comes with, the USB-A one, totally flaked out on me.
And at the end of the day, while repairability is lovely, so is a tech support line you can call and talk to a human being, so is a depot you can send the laptop to, and so is being able to pay for a repair person to come and fix my work machine.
These are premium asks, the repair person in particular, and I know that big companies like Dell and Lenovo can only offer them based on bulk sales, but I'd be willing to pay for this, but it's not offered.
Right now, the laptop is good, but I wouldn't buy one. They say their next model will have better Linux support, and be better in other ways. I'd wait for that and hope that Framework also works out a better tech support system.
In the context of the Framework, I think it seems to be the intention of the designers that you buy replacement parts and replace them yourself.
I think it's great that we're able to fix our own machines, and I think it's wonderful to teach people to fix their own machines, but it's ablist to assume everyone has the ability to do so. I don't.
Moreover, there are lots of people who support Right to Repair but don't want to have to repair their own equipment. Wouldn't it be lovely to be able to take your computer down to a repair shop or have someone come over and fix it?
It cost more than a macbook ARM, and you get less perf, worse battery, worse cooling, and less support, yes you get to repair it yourself and more easily, but i never had to repair my macbooks (other than changing the battery, and that was easy to do myself, and looks like it is still easy on the ARM ones https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l_Dw_5_JJk)
How come a machine like this doesn't have flawless Linux support? Such a lost opportunity...
My experience is that it takes about two years to get 90% or better hardware support on a new one.
Interested, got a reference?
I'd love to love these guys, but it's not yet baked enough for me.
It is time to choose, brothers and sister - do you want to be the problem or do you want to be the solution?
Installed 64GB of RAM and a high-performance 2TB NVMe for less than half of a comparable Macbook Pro. Plus, I get to run Linux! It worked right out of the box with almost zero configuration.
To be completely fair, the battery that it comes with is a bit on the small side, so that's the main criticism I have (battery life).
All told, I can't see myself ever going back to using an Apple laptop (voluntarily). I do get jealous of the M1/M2 processor specifically at times, but MacOS is a dumpster fire and I refuse to use it. Plus, having used a proper tiling window manager on a laptop now (i3), I can't imagine going back.
I'm in the market now for a replacement for my old 15" thinkpad that I've been using but just haven't really found anything. I seem to be in some weird middle ground that nobody caters too because everything is either 13" or 16".
Re window management specifically: your "it's not the same" comment are my exact sentiments!
Even if you can hack together some other MacOS-specific window management solution, what I'm finding game-changing is my laptop and my desktop behaving in the exact same way (same OS, same dotfiles, same programs/bins/utils).
Not only "behaving" in the same way, but also configured in the same way (meaning I don't have to maintain two separate configurations for two entirely different managers).
I don't know, I realize my perspective isn't shared by everyone (and even the HN audience specifically), but I'll probably never go back to using a laptop without Linux on it. For a long time, I avoided going down that path because I knew how big of a PITA getting laptop device/drivers to work was (whereas it's generally far simpler on desktop), but that's become less and less the case over the years, to the point that I spend less time configuring Linux than I do overriding all of MacOS's default settings/configuration.
https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai
Every Apple product I've owned has failed in some spectacular way, and Apple's response is typically something along the lines of "You're SoL dude, you can either recycle it and buy a new product, or you can pay us something close to the value of the device to repair it" (because they solder everything unnecessarily).
Framework finally came along and showed that you can have a sleek, elegant (and modular!) design without soldering everything together in the name of reducing weight by 0.01kg or whatever (or making it a hair-width thinner).
Most recently, I had a 2019 Macbook Pro ($3K) that would frequently give me a "red screen of death" under load and crap out completely.
Before that, a brand new 2018 Macbook Pro I bought (for nearly $3K mind you) became unusable within an hour after taking it out of the box because of the faulty keyboard (several keys either didn't register key presses, or they would turn one key press into multiple occurrences of the same letter).
Before that, I had a Thunderbolt Display ($1K) that would fail intermittently, and it took 5 trips to the Apple store before they finally gave me a new one.
Before that, I had a 2014 Macbook Pro for which the screen started peeling off -- I had to buy a matte screen protector to even be able to see the screen.
I have several more examples as I go back in time further, but you get the gist! In all cases, they're widely known problems that Apple refuses to acknowledge, and assuming they're even willing to do anything about it, they want you to hand over your laptop to them for ~2 weeks in the meantime.
---
Original response:
I'll eventually get around to writing a blog post about this (tm) and HN isn't really the place to fully brain dump, but off of the top of my head, here's a few examples:
- My ".osx" dotfiles (then, now ".macos") would break with every OS upgrade. As an example, I preferred to set a very fast key repeat with a very short delay, and I remember one version of OSX/MacOS that just decided to start ignoring that completely (or resetting it every restart or something, I forget).
- As a TL;DR point that summarizes many frustrations, I'd end up changing almost all of the default settings, to the point that I realized that I wasn't their target customer. For instance, I'd promptly disable all of their elaborate transitions and animations (which effectively added a latency to interacting with the system), hide the dock in perpetuity, etc etc... I haven't used MacOS in a few years, so I'm unable to refresh myself on what else I would change.
- Their window management is SO stupid (IMHO), especially once you start incorporating monitors.
- At least historically (unsure now), there was no way to differentiate the scroll behavior with the trackpad vs an external mouse. I did like the "natural" scrolling or whatever, as it felt very intuitive having used smartphones for many years. However, any time I connected a wireless mouse (primarily for gaming), it'd behave the same way (completely unintuitive), and there was no way to change it to be different. So I'd then have to either design for the least common denominator ("scrollwheel behavior"), or change that setting every single time I used an external mouse and remember to revert it when I'm done. A small nit, but one of tens of examples of annoyances.
I could go on, but like I mentioned, this isn't really the place! Just a few examples as a taste :)
There's a vocal minority of people (I count myself in) that really, really like trackpoints and would love to have a Framework laptop with this kind of pointing device. I think it would be more productive (or perhaps its wishful thinking on my part) for you people to say something like "we need to shave x mm from the Thinkpad one to match or requirement" or "we need x dollar to hire someone / to let our product engineer spend y amount of time on this project.
(and I'm of course ignoring the dozen or so patents that probably prevent you to implement this... but I really really like trackpoints)
Currently I'm using the Tex shinobi keyboard, and before that I used the IBM USB keyboard with the X220 layout.
When navigating with the mouse on the web, I currently have my thumb for the mouse buttons, my index finger on the trackpoint, and middle, ring, and index for movement on the HJKL keys. Nothing beats that for speed and hand movement a mouse is a little more accurate, but I'm willing to trade that for not moving my hand all the time. (I also just realized I switch hands a lot for moving the mouse - not something you can do with a mouse.)
With that being said, I think Apple finally nailed the trackpad. It's far better than those original trackpads that came on ThinkPads that was so comically small you couldn't really use it on top of absolutely horrendous drivers. I think for the most part trackpads on Windows laptops are pretty competent as well, at least on the higher end models. Windows precision drivers went a long way to matching the experience of using a trackpad on the Mac. On Linux the basics are mostly fine though it's still kind of a mixed bag.
I thought I preferred trackpoint; turns out I don't.
But today trackpads are really good, especially the ones that ship on MacBooks. I can't imagine going back to the trackpoint any more than I can imagine going back to the trackpads of the '00s. Good multitouch gestures in particular make a trackpad way more versatile and improve my productivity a lot.
non-ironically, this is the last thing that is giving me doubts between going for the frame.work for my next laptop or sticking to old-trustworthy thinkpads.
Since you can buy seperate keyboard parts... and if you don't mind a bit of drilling / replacing some keys with custom keys / manual fixing of damaged traces on the pcbs...
Just drill a hole in the keyboard, file it off, and buy a trackpoint module from ebay, It'd probably work well enough!
- - -
that aside, making an expansion card which has a trackpoint on it, or notching it into just above the keyboard area, would probably be the most doable options, without needing the company to catch up
- not yet .. but this is ~ Open Design .. so I hope some 3rd party company will create.
i'll also add that IBM/Lenovo's trackpoint is much better than alternatives, I've found. they are to trackpoints what apple is to trackpads.
The biggest problem is that it drains 1-2% per hour in deep sleep on Linux. That means if you leave it asleep in your bag after work it will be between 15-30% lower when you go to use it the next morning. People on the forums[0] are even seeing up to a 4% per hour drain. I don't know what is common with other laptops but I can't say I've ever had to think about sleep drain before.
I've just ordered the 12th gen board upgrade with fingers crossed it helps but really consider going back to a ThinkPad X1 Carbon.
0: https://community.frame.work/t/linux-battery-life-tuning/666...
On 11th Gen and 12th Gen, one of the other major drivers of s0ix drain we have seen is SSDs with firmware issues that keep them in higher power states in suspend. Updating SSD firmware is challenging on Linux, so if you are unable to do that, there is also a workaround to change a kernel parameter which we have seen result in <1%/hour drain on 11th Gen: https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Ubuntu+22.04+LTS+Installatio...
I run the latest kernel (5.16.16 currently) on Arch.
I've turned just about every knob and kernel parameter I can, only use the USB C expansion cards, kernel is 5.18.12, and my Samsung 980 Pro is on the latest firmware (5B2QGXA7) so I look forward to what the 12th Gen board can do.
That should let you close your laptop and open it in a few days without any big issue, even if S0ix continues to suck.
- Installing the WiFi card was crazy difficult. The antenna connectors are tiny, fragile, and require significant pressure to snap on. I had to use a pair of pliers to get it on and I was very concerned about breaking or bending something
- The screen hinge is weak and not adjustable. It'll stay in position when it's on a table, but picking the laptop up and walking anywhere with it inevitably ends up with the screen open to 180 degrees.
- The space bar is inconsistent. Especially with my right hand. I've had to develop a typing habit where I type spaces with my left hand or hard with my right hand to get it to register. Otherwisemywritingendsuplookinglikethis.
- The touchpad isn't great. My work machines have been MacBooks, so maybe I'm spoiled. But I disable touch to click. And clicking to click is also inconsistent. I ended up having to click extra hard.
These are annoyances really, and I don't use it often enough for these to matter. But if it was my daily driver I'd have done something about it by now.
On the hinges, could you reach out to our support team? We had a set of out of spec hinges come from our supplier, and it is possible that is what you are seeing. The team can also help you out on any issues you're seeing on your keyboard or trackpad.
> we switched to pre-installing the card with antennas attached
That's really good to hear. I assumed I had to do it because I got the DIY edition and that I essentially got what I asked for.
I don't have a Framework, but that's how installing mobile WiFi cards has always felt to me. IME those connectors are sturdier than you'd think, but I never use tweezers or apply pressure on the wire other than at the joint, from directly above, with a finger.
I've never worked with a mobile wifi adapter that wasn't miserable to try to put connect the antenna to.
I also had a few of the Linux issues that others have mentioned, but upgrading to the newest Ubuntu solved them.
Overall a fantastic machine, and probably my favorite laptop I've ever owned.
pressing on a touch pad has always annoyed me. on my laptops i always remap capslock -> (ctrl|cmd), and (ctrl|cmd) -> mouse click.
I've also had some issues with the CPU temperature consistently pushing into the 90s when running big multicore workloads. Not sure why. Rather than look into applying new thermal paste or whatever, I just turned off Intel turbo boost, this is of course a performance hit but it keeps the whole thing very cool and improves battery life.
On an open UEFI solution, that is on our long term roadmap, and we're currently hiring for firmware positions to speed up kicking off this work. Edit: Also, our Embedded Controller firmware is open, though that is somewhat orthogonal to UEFI: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/EmbeddedController
Best laptop support experience ever. Best laptop ever. Verge, "Generic looking" as a con? AYFKM?
[1]: https://community.frame.work/