Good for you but there’s no real advantage professionally in moving back, but no disadvantage either. Sure you’re saying H1B restricts but does it really? Have you truly explored all immigration options? Or did you just balk at all the extra beauracracy and said I’ll go back to india? Which is fine, but do note the irony of moving to india to avoid bureaucracy lol. Apply and do your GST, run between five different branches of the same govt entity for a permit and then tell me you have reduced your bureaucratic burden.
There’s a nice shiny shell of Indian startups now for sure, but the fundamental rotten core of Indian magistration is still there. There are smart people but for every smart cookie that didn’t leave the country there are 5 charlatans demanding the same salary now. Pretty much every successful startup in India is massively building on top of cheap slave labor / bad tech regulation / gambling. VCs are pouring money here because where else can they go? China? Middle East? How long will it last? Who knows.
Not saying india is not going to be successful, but to bet on it’s success over the same industry in the US is at best speculation.
Now coming to the society disadvantages, viz. the pollution and water scarcity, abject inequality in your face, and my god let’s not start on the safety of women (my partner said she will never bring a girl child up in india and i incline to agree). The last point is in particular interesting because only naive people have shrugged it off to my face till now. If you are a guy (or worse a girl) who insists it’s not that bad in india, then you grew up with extreme privilege or are extremely clueless about realities of life in this country. Anyways choose away but don’t for a second suggest this is somehow better.
The main advantage of India for me personally is a sense of community that I felt when I went back there after 8 years. Everyone in the society (i.e: I'd say equivalent to a street or a suburb) knows you and greets you. You go to the temple in the morning, and pickup some snacks along the way. In the evening, people go out to eat, meet their relatives, etc.
There are pros and cons of this sense of community as well, people can be nosy. However, coming back from India recently, I felt pretty depressed and alone. In North America, everyone seems like a busy worker bee that is working all the time. On the weekend, the bees explore a little bit more. Go hiking, or explore their other hobbies. But the sense of aloneness is something I never knew I had until I went back to India.
Aside: This was my first trip back after having done a few when I was young and hating those since I was just stuck in the house as a YA and had limited internet access. The country, the people, have come far from that and as an adult I have all the freedom to do whatever the fk I want too.
> But the sense of aloneness is something I never knew I had until I went back to India.
I only lived in Bangladesh until age 5, and have spent nearly my whole life in America, but this sense of loneliness hit me really hard when I had my own kids. I remember being surrounded by aunties and cousins at their age, and my kids aren’t. Just in the last year we had a critical mass of neighborhood kids move in, but for my oldest, it was a very solitary childhood until age 8 or so.
Good that you like this but I honestly don’t like that. This is just a bunch of people saying hello. They’re no more helpful in the case of urgency than the average American you don’t know the name of. Thus what remains is only pervasive gossip. When people do unfathomable things like forcing marriages within caste this community “camaraderie” is what they use as the reason: “what will SOCIETY think of us?” You mean the jobless woman three doors down? I’d much rather live where no one knows or judges with prejudice my life choices.
This doesn’t just happen in india but also in the states where there are “tight knit communities”. Aka small church focused towns. Jobless people knowing each other seems like one of the fundamental problems hindering human freedom to me.
I think this is the biggest difference - economic differences are quite large in nominal terms but life always goes on, there's going to be food on the table and roof over your head.
Coming from East Asia a lot of my friends are not used to this - but I find myself enjoying the loneliness of it all - being on a boat in the middle of the lake at the middle of the night with no one around you in 2 miles radius is a blessing.
For a similar reason, I never liked New York, SF or LA in the US.
There are better visa options for more skilled workers. Like the O1, or if you’re smart the L1 for international orgs with some stint outside. Or you can even start a company in a H1B. Or if you did make a lot of money an EB5. The list is long.
I have now been living in the happiest country in the world for more than a decade.
As an Indian kid growing up on Cartoon Network, I was quite envious of western kids with skateboards and actual skate parks, tons of toys, gizmos and game consoles.
Once you start knowing people well, they start opening up about their past and I have come to realise 3 out 4 of them, pretty decent well educated people have had to struggle with alcoholic/abusive/loveless parents, addictions of their own, depression.
I just realised even though things were pretty bad in terms safety (traffic), sanitation, health or access to simple things like telephones or material comforts, most "middle class" Indians grew up in pretty safe social settings.
Somethings like safety has certainly improved substantially, but certainly some like alcoholism has grown exponentially bad.
I agree things aren't the best and you make several valid points. However, seems to me that you are in the camp who would rather shit on their own country instead of finding ways to make things better for everyone. You too are a part of the privileged class at this moment - sitting in the US (presumably).
Shit on your own country? What does that even mean? The place you were born by chance? Now you have to “own” it as an identity? Do you have the same beliefs about government? religion? caste? race? I suggest you try freeing yourself of such burden.
Presumed wrong. I don’t comment on the state of affairs without having been back. Again I want to contribute to humanity and this planet, I don’t pledge allegiance to a line drawn by dipshits 70 years back.
There are definite advantages in moving to India or many other third world countries, there is so much scope and possibly, and the untapped markets can be huge opportunities.
Also the same amount of money goes a long way in India than in US. Rents, medical costs, etc are way cheaper.
I think about this for another country (islands type), it would be beautiful but also I would lose the things here in the US I take for granted. Don't have to worry about having parasites from food. My 1 day Amazon shipping (sorry I'm thinking more electronics sourcing eg. Digikey). The other thing too is software is not valued there...you make the same amount or less in construction which is interesting unless it's work coming externally from another country. Also the risk of less police... I have this fear if I go there I won't be able to return to the US ha. If you had online income (passive) that would be nice. I knew a person that lived on a boat/had weapons, street smart kind of person unlike me.
the golden age of startups in india has already started to shutter. It’s still a hot market but all the Low hanging fruits are already done for. Anyone thinking the market here is somehow easier than in the US is absolutely naive.
It has lot of potential but at the end of the day it’s corrupt to the core, cities are hyper polluted and the infrastructure is abysmal(Although better than two decades ago).
I also didn’t like it that the government supports Russia.
My daughter goes to elementary school in Bay Area. She was cursed and told "Go home and tell you mother m**f** like this *" with obscene gestures. Based on our experience such rude, obscene and unhealthy behavior isn't uncommon. In addition, adults and kids are exposed to all shitty and violent content through streaming platforms which is also impacting their behavior.
What do you also think about safety with so much of gun violence and abuse going on in USA?
In our experience, private schools in India are much better and probably safer for kids. They offer all-round learning experience (books/studies, sports, cultural experience etc.) and hot fresh meals as well. It is expensive and hence it is not commonly available to all kids, but I don't think such school experience is available in USA as well (especially cold and frozen food given in schools).
While I agree about some of your points related to safety, pollution, and overall civic sense, I don't think it living in US is somehow better. May be you are living in USA with extreme privilege and/or with narrow vision and mindset. :)
I agree with last paragraph, while maybe not very relevant for young single male, certainly very relevant who plans to settle down.
But honestly choosing between US and India to raise kid is choosing between two very bad options and there are more options in world, someone with IT background shouldn't have many issues to move to Europe which would be certainly better option long term raising the family, but maybe slightly worse career wise.
I’d never raise my kids in someone else’s ethnostate. In America my kids are unquestioningly accepted as American even in random rural parts of the country. Meanwhile in say Germany there are many second generation Turkish people who still don’t really feel German; similar things about Muslim immigrants to France, etc.
As a desi, US and India are much better to raise kids compared to the European countries (well, except maybe for UK). It is easy to become an American within a few days of landing here. But I will never become French even after spending years or decades in France. Same goes with Germany, Italy, Norway, Poland or other places. European countries are nation states and while that may work out well for their citizens, it is a big hindrance to assimilate immigrants.
> the insane opportunities available in India now [3].
> India’s rising startup and tech wave
> Massive switch from wealth accumulation mode to wealth creation mode.
> And the amount of VC funding in India combined with the startup ecosystem’s energy here is absolute fire
> The collective risk appetite has never been higher.
> The step after the ‘American dream’ is the ‘Indian dream’.
This is great to hear about India. The more developed and economically successful the world’s largest democracy is, the better for the world in general. The US, Europe, and allies should be doing whatever we can to support this.
> The more developed and economically successful the world’s largest democracy is, the better for the world in general.
Who cares whether india is a democracy or not? It's so odd people parrot the propaganda so religiously. Every post about india inevitably mentions something about india being the largest democracy. Who cares? If india wasn't a democracy, should we hope 1.4 billion indians revel in poverty?
> The US, Europe, and allies should be doing whatever we can to support this.
We will support as long as india is poor and unsuccessful. As soon as they get rich and strong, we'll attack them just like we did to japan in the 80s and china today. The largest geographical democracy is russia and boy we surely don't support them. And we sanctioned india when they developed nukes in 90s, even though they were a democracy.
How about we support india lifting hundreds of millions of humans being out of poverty and worry less about democracy which has kept them in poverty for nearly years after independence?
Every human being on the planet who doesn't want to live in a dictatorship subject to the whims of one or few strongmen, or to be disappeared with no legal recourse for saying or thinking the wrong thing, or to have the valuable things they've built stolen by the unaccountable powerful.
There was a brief interregnum to history after the fall of the USSR, where we all thought authoritarianism would disappear if we just all get rich together, and that the culmination of human social evolution was liberal democracy and free markets.
Unfortunately none of that is true, and authoritarianism is on the rise again. You can pretend not to see it or that it doesn't matter if you wish, but that won't change the reality.
And Russia is no longer a democracy, the US has never attacked Japan post-WWII, and US has been extremely generous to China until Xi Jinping took over and began his campaign of regional and world domination.
Anybody who wants to do business. Democracies have stable, predictable rule of law. Do you want to invest in a country where a dictator could simply decide that he is going take your assets?
Hard disagree. There is no evidence that startups of India are helping the GDP or improving the lives of rank and file Indians. In my understanding, right now, all these VC funded businesses are catering to top 100M of Indian population, people who are already living US-lifestyle in India.
I can see that being the case, no doubt. But for at least some new products and services, building and scaling them up to a billion+ person market requires starting with the 100M+ affluent Indians first. Then scale up from there. Tesla and electric cars is one example of this.
As always the reality is complicated, and yes, India does see a problem with the invasion. India is not like China where the media is openly supporting the Russian narrative. India is merely keeping quiet, with many in the media telling it to take a more open position against Russia.
India has massive dependency on Russian military hardware and spare parts. So what should it do, just break off with Russia over a war in the Europe and get screwed itself when China-Pak nexus comes knocking on the border? No country in the world would do that, none-zero-zilch…
Moreover, Europe itself is buying Russian oil and gas, and wants India to stop - that reeks of double standards..
International politics is much murkier than national politics, so nothing is ever black or white.
The real geopolitics behind this is that Russia is trying to curb NATO influence. So this war is really about hurting NATO. A Russian loss helps NATO and a victory hurts NATO, but the war can be ended if either side makes the requisite concessions. But for unaffiliated parties they don’t necessarily take a pro-NATO stance so anti-war or anti-violence simply means “somebody please give in” rather than “NATO please win.” Asking India, or even China for this matter, to make sacrifices for the benefit of NATO is an unrealistic position to take.
It is more like India doesn't trust that the west actually has an intent of stopping the conflict.
Or that Europe would in anyway want to give up on its Russian gas and oil, while pointing fingers at India which buys less than 1%.
In fact they fear it might go the same way as the sanctions on Iran, where India had to go through Germany banks to pay its Iranian dues, where Indian banks were expected to abide by sanctions while German banks were not.
Germany continues to buy oil from Russia too, but I never see them being criticized for it. They bought oil for decades from Russia, arguably funding the current invasion, yet that was held up as a shining example of how interdepenence via trading can maintain peace between nations.
There's always a double standard at play. For EU, buying oil is a necessary evil. For India, it's "supporting" the enemy.
Huh? They’ve repeatedly said they don’t support violence and has offered to mediate between Russia and Ukraine. Just because they’re looking out for their economic needs — which are wildly different than developed nations — doesn’t mean they support the invasion.
I just wanted to point out I loved the fact the op used expat to describe his status in the US and not immigrant. I’ve always hated we had two different words to describe the same thing.
I hate that. I call myself immigrant in my new country and I find it very snobish to call ourselves "expat".
In fact I did some tutoring to a school for poorer pupils, many of them second generation from the Philipines (so born in Hong Kong, where I immigrated, with two parents born in PH).
When I told them I was an immigrant they were dumbfounded "but then you re very lucky to have arrived here", I was like "not at all, immigration is a choice, you dont need to feel victim of it, we're not here by luck but by work and opportunity seizing".
Talking of immigrants as victims is like talking of africans as "subevolved" charity needing parasites: it hides most of the truth of it.
Every expat is an immigrant, every immigrant is an expat. You left for a reason, and it s always money or a girl.
I can't agree. they generally describe different situations and are used in different contexts. We have different "degree" words for all kinds of situations. I think it's people just trying to virtue signal on both sides though. People really overreact to what in the end is just a word.
Are they the same? To me immigrant implies a newish arrival, probably with the intention of staying and integrating. Expat implies orientation towards the "fatherland" (patriae) to me, so someone who lives in a different country for a while (maybe a long while) but hasn't and has no intention of "going native". But maybe those are private definitions?
In my personal experience, expat is a term that's most frequently used to describe someone who is sent abroad by their firm, either on a temporary secondment or perhaps on an indefinite basis (c.f. "expat package" to describe a cost-of-living adjustment or other inducement).
That then shades into other meaning, which is one of someone living abroad that doesn't expect to stay, or retains a strong cultural connection with their home country, or doesn't mix with the local population (c.f. "expat ghetto" to describe a locale primarily inhabited or frequented by such people).
I don't know what the dictionary definition says, but I wouldn't say "immigrant" and "expat" mean the same thing to me.
Even by the rich-poor distinction what do you call the plentiful White retirees of seedy S.E Asian places like Pattaya, Thailand & Dumaguete, Philippines? Some call them sexpats but that's a different can of worms entirely.
They're by no means as rich as some of the Chinese visitors to those destinations.
More:
Why are white people expats when the rest of us are immigrants?
Surely any person going to work outside their country is an expatriate? But no, the word exclusively applies to white people
When is an immigrant not an immigrant? When they’re rich.
The British diaspora in the Gulf and Brunei are seen as useful – it’s only poor immigrants who are seen as a problem
I hate it when company policies talk about immigration to the US (or Western countries) and then talks about Expats when talking about locations in other part of the world.
If solving problems create opportunities for new ventures, that is what the smart people should do instead of piggy backing on technologically stagnated big corporations. Developing countries may have significantly less quality of life in general, but there have always been a class of people enjoying life no less than anyone in the "first world", probably more. Simply put developing countries also need amazon, paypal, EV as they develop and adaption of long existing technology is more important than innovation there. So, entrepreneurs from technologically advance (and competitive) countries have even more opportunities to play bigger roles and create significant impact in a society.
This only really applies to a few developing countries, though. I actually think it only really applies to India.
When you're creating products for developing countries, you have to build for a certain market. The one in India is enormous and prosperity is increasing (although the pandemic has been a setback, yes).
Yeah, if only 5% of the Indian population can afford your product, that's still a market comparable to the entire German population (~70 million). As long as the way that the other 95% have to live doesn't bother you. I have never been to India, but I still remember the news of the Covid lockdown in 2020 where the migrant workers were suddenly left without income and had to fend for themselves...
Fuck the H1b visa. Yes I understand that we have created a huge GC backlog by immigrating here in large numbers but that doesn't mean we should be dragged around like a toy. This is sadly the impression I've formed these days. Our entire lives here revolve around that visa and we could basically be holding on to it for 30 to 50 years before we can get a GC lol. In the meantime, maintaining our driver's licenses, being able to enter/leave the country, being questioned at the airports, having to constantly renew crap, waiting for eons to change employer, staying disconnected from the family are all common things to expect.
To add to this, there are no appointments for Visa Stampings back in the home country because of which many people dropped their travel plans; and USCIS doesn't give a damn about it. Life is more or less crippled at this point. Now, would all this still be outweighed by a First World living quality? In the beginning when I was young I used to think "yes". But I've realized lately that it's a big "no". Days are making me think about my plan to move back out to home country or our peaceful northern neighbor.
Americans want H1Bs to be temporary workers who go back home, not immigrate permanently. That’s why the statute has “temporary” plastered all over it and has since it was written in the 1950s. That’s why the latest Democrat-backed reform bill still has temporary prominently right in the title of the Act:
> To amend the Immigration and Nationality Act to reform and reduce fraud and abuse in certain visa programs for aliens working temporarily in the United States, and for other purposes.
For a long time, desis treated the H1-B system as a permanent immigration visa, and Americans looked the other way. My family came here in 1989 under the old H1 program. That’s no longer true. Americans feel that the country is full and will increasingly be enforcing the letter of the law. Desis should internalize that. Unless they’re eligible for a real immigrant visa (in America, the main one is the family reunification visa) they should either go to Canada or Australia, which need people, or help improve India.
> Americans want H1Bs to be temporary workers who go back home, not immigrate permanently. That’s why the statute has “temporary” plastered all over it
This is false. The H1B is a 'dual intent visa', which means it "allows foreigners to be temporarily present in the U.S. with lawful status and immigrant intent".
> Unless they’re eligible for a real immigrant visa (in America, the main one is the family reunification visa)
This is false. An H1B ("temporary worker") from, say, Iraq or Serbia has no wait times for a green card. In contrast, a child ("family reunification") of a Mexican US Citizen must wait at least 20 years for a green card.
>>>I used to think the same, that the Americans don't really want us
I don't think so. At this point Americans don't seem to care. In ripe cities, they see many immigrants from different countries many of who are GC holders or citizens. Btw many of them came here a couple years ago on the same h1b visa, so not sure why only Indians should be looking at it differently?
The fact is America always needs high-skilled labor, to keep its economy at the No.1 position. They're however, not ready to reward that labor so readily.
Literally every sentence here is wrong. Pro-immigration sentiment is at its highest in decades. The H1-B visa is a dual intent visa and is the only real mechanism for skilled professional immigration.
The whole comment is so uninformed it’s just wholly nonsense. It’s fiction from the /r/asablackman genre.
Perhaps the literal interpretation of the law reaffirms your argument for the temporary status of the visa but that doesn't take away from the fact that H1-B visa holders have progressed to the permanent residence status through this track in the past.
This doesn't mean that every and each one of them is entitled now to this immigration status upgrade but this sentiment of "Here it says temporary in the law so you better pack up and leave now" is a bit unfair.
> Americans feel that the country is full and will increasingly be enforcing the letter of the law.
I used to think the same, that the Americans don't really want us. But when the corona pandemic related lockdowns happened, and US banned people from India, US still allowed Indian college students. So there must be some need. These students are not coming to US for education, they are coming here to work, and get green card and become a citizen.
> For a long time, d###s treated the H1-B system as a permanent immigration visa...D###s should internalize that.
And that is why I think posts like this are important. So that Indians who are considering moving to US know the ground reality, and make informed decisions rather than regret it later in life.
Man, you said it. I hated that stuff when I was on an H1B. Cannot emphasise how much nicer life is once you are no longer holding out for that (apparently) magical Green Card. As of date, apparently my GC petition date is current but I'll be damned if I'm going back to the US to stand in line, hat in hand for slip of paper telling me I'm allowed to live normally again.
Well, I can't even picture myself retiring in this country. It is too capitalistic to be that magical utopia. Enough with the paperwork, it's about time we realized that we don't have to be a slave to the visa and think about freedom. I mean to say "free"dom
> In the beginning when I was young I used to think "yes". But I've realized lately that it's a big "no".
Exactly my thoughts. The poor quality air or the mad traffic in Indian cities feels a lot better than the insane stress the visa situations put me through the last few years.
There is no political will to fight for immigrants; skilled or otherwise. Without votes or the organized capital needed to lobby congress the immigration situation is only likely to get worse. The right wing's view of immigration has morphed over the past decade from "only skilled" to "no immigration at all" and the left has capitulated completely. This shift in attitudes towards immigration isn't unique to America but it's infuriating and depressing to see. Immigration is America's policy crown jewel. It's madness to see Europe's stagnation and think "yes, that's what I want for this country"
It is time real innovation has started in India. India is embracing tech for new fields like agriculture, India's fintech is thriving, Indian govt is investing a lot in semiconductor fabs.
A lot of people i know moved to US because of huge salary gap. Now that gap has reduced a lot and you can save more in India maintaing same lifestyle.
Gap has reduced but Silicon Valley still pays 4-5 times more for the same job than Indian salaries. As a single guy you can save a lot even accounting cost of living. Probably the reason which helped OP come to India(along with Tesla stocks 10xing)
Quality of life for the same pay is different though. In India, labor is much cheaper. However, rule of law, open space etc are not as good. Working temporarily in the US to save money for India could be a good arbitrage.
I'd imagine moving back to India after being successful in the US gives you lots of leverage and status, in the sense of being a big fish in a smaller pool (what a beautiful irony, thinking of India of all places as the smaller pool, heh).
But lets be real, isn't the quality of life much worse? I've never been there (or in the US, for that matter), but I'd imagine that things like infrastructure are far worse in India. Also, the country seems so... chaotic, the cultural shock must be crazy.
That's correct. I live in Bangalore, India and there are a lot more issues than just quality of life.
1. Since, I am from North India, Bangalore treats us like foreigners i.e. if you don't speak the native language, you will be at a significant disadvantage when requiring the assistance of police.
2. Rather, the police has been known to discriminate against `outsiders`. You can even head over to r/bangalore to know more.
3. The income inequality is real and through the roof. We tech people make much much more than any other private profession and this has made the general population unhappy.
4. Lastly, there isn't much to do besides going out to pubs/cafes.
Which is why I've been leetcoding and preparing to emigrate to Canada/UK. While it's true that I can save a lot more money here (in real terms! At PPP, my monthly savings allows me live for several months without an income) but at what cost.
Not trying to prove / disprove things, but here are some observations.
1. Yeah the language barrier can be a lot - but no matter which city I lived in - I have always had people help me out with the local language. In smaller villages/towns - it can be harder to find people who can do that for you though.
2. I can't say much about this because I didn't have to deal with this in a meaningful way.
3. I think it is more complicated than "tech people make much more". As a point of reference - the street food vendors (pani puri guys for eg.), the uber drivers, the blue collar workers and sometimes even the house help i talked to - they all made more money than the "IT people" they provide services to. And outside IT - my doctor, lawyer, architect friends all earn quite well - while being under a lot less stress. I do see huge income inequality though - but at the same time it is more complicated than I thought it would be.
4. Honestly - I used to think the same too but you need to figure out what/where to look at. We IT folk tend to live in a bubble (Especially when living in another city) and that hides a lot of the cultural aspects of the city from us. I have had friends who are into hiking, cycling, rock climbing, theater, dance classes, standup comedy, music making, painting, cooking clubs. And sometimes, You really might be alone when it comes to some hobbies. But that's when your high PPP can come in real handy and help you get started with your own club. I don't think "I can save a lot more money here but..." would be a problem once you figure out what exactly you want to spend that money on.
This unfortunate take is solely based on a single data point i.e. life of a North Indian in Bengaluru. Such extrapolations when applied to a huge and diverse country like India does not present a comprehensive picture.
> Lastly, there isn't much to do besides going out to pubs/cafes.
I am just amazed at this comment. The wondrous ruins of Hampi are just a train ride away. Then there's the UNESCO protected majestic western ghats few hours away, and not to mention the pristing beaches of Malpe and Udupi. I mean Chamundi hills, Hogenakkal etc is right next to the city.
Others have pointed it out but I've got to reiterate: if you don't like Bangalore, just go to another city? There's thriving tech scenes in Hyderabad, Pune and Gurgaon, and in none of those cities are North Indians unwelcome. I can also personally vouch for fun out of work activities in Hyderabad and Gurgaon.
(And while I don't mean to deny your personal experience, I've never faced any trouble in Bangalore despite not being a Kannadiga.)
I moved from Switzerland to India sometime back, for reasons similar to OP's.
Here are my ₹2
> quality of life
"Quality" is subjective. My wife and I value having our parents around, being able to afford a cook/maid/nanny, not having to deal with winter and darkness, ...
> infrastructure
For sure it's worse in India. But our lifestyle here is such that we don't have to deal with it frequently. We live next to friends, in a arguably beautiful society, and when we do need something done, we inevitably "know a guy who knows a guy", who can help sort things out without us having to deal with the subpar infra. But yes, for sure India could do a lot better on this front.
> chaotic
For someone like me, who was born and raised here, it is easy to thrive in this chaos. This is home.
There will always be subjective differences between India and the USA and not everything is hunky dory, but there are some things India is IMO better than USA for an Indian expat:
1. Climate: India is definitely sunny and enjoys predictable weather patterns all year round. Climate change might upset the equation, but it is still bright and sunny.
2. Biodiversity: India is 7th largest country with lots of great places to visit. Mountains, deserts, beaches, jungles, plains etc are all there and South East Asia and Africa are just a flight away. India is 2nd only to Africa when it comes to wildlife.
3. Food: Most Indians eat locally grown stuff sourced from the region and there is an amazing variety of fruits and vegetables that are local to the regions.
4. Social support: The society is definitely more warm and cordial compared to USA. There is house help readily available and the extended family support is unbeatable.
5. Booming tech scene: India will soon need to support it's own internal market which is growing exponentially. The success of Byju's DarwinBox etc is just a start.
Except 4 & 5, the first few cannot be said "subjectively better". This is your personal opinion, not the "statistically true" opinion.
>Climate
Definitely hotter in most (80%) of India, from late February to mid-October. US states enjoys more cloudless sunny weather per annum.
>Biodiversity: India is 7th largest country with lots of great places to visit. Mountains, deserts, beaches, jungles, plains [...]
US is almost a continent. It has all these and more. Sorry.
> Food: Most Indians eat locally grown stuff sourced from the region
True for US too. California, Midwest, Florida and North Carolina produce majority of US food primary produce. Infact, they export it. And we import a lot of these to India.
There is house help readily available in the U.S. - the caveat is that you can't afford it unless you're super-wealthy relative to the average population. Incidentally, that's the same in India.
Imo it isn’t worth it. My family left India for a better life because having no running water and spotty electricity is an awful living experience. But the worst part is going outside and seeing that 80% of the people are doing worse than you and the suffering I saw was absolutely mind boggling. This was back in the 90s and 00s.
I went back recently in 2017/18 and between the 400ppm smog (when there was a wildfire near me in CA it was like 160) and people driving the wrong way across lanes in the smog fog and the traffic and poverty, I found the occasional Mercedes and other luxury car stuck sideways in traffic in the middle of the four lane highway that’s now somehow 9 to be extremely ironic.
I know I personally would find it extremely difficult to move there. I couldn’t deal with the fact that we went to a ultra luxury mall and came outside to be surrounded once again my mind boggling poverty and seeing everything from beggars to people in Benzes stuck in the same road. You go back to your nice home and still hear honking or breathe in the smog.
Moving to America was my lottery winning experience. I’m forever grateful for it.
But you'd still live the life of a multi millionaire if you moved to India, no? You'd easily be in the top 1% I think, that means a personal driver and help, a gated community etc etc. So how bad would quality of life be to you then?
Yes pollution is the great equalizer though, rich people have to breathe the same air mostly (for now...)
Great points. India is in a weird composition when it comes to the lifestyles people lead there. The problem is income inequality and lack of an economic balance thereof. I am sure there are a lot less beggars these days than there were in the 90's. The government, albeit corrupt, is slowly lifting people out of the poverty line and looking at the private sector, there are more employment opportunities now. Wage levels are still not up to the mark, and quickly diminish in value after trying to meet the costs of basic necessities like housing and transportation (fuel). We may need to hold on for another 10 years or so and see for ourselves what stage India may get to, at that point.
> being successful in the US gives you lots of leverage and status
That use to be the case. The shine has definitely worn off. I would say the work culture in Indian product companies are much more closer to its western counterparts. (Service companies are a different ball-game)
> But lets be real, isn't the quality of life much worse
In my opinion, India is worse off in 2 things primarily: 1. Population density in cities 2. Poorer govt. Having said that a lot of things have improved in last decade:
1. Payment infrastructure is probably the best in the world.
2. Govt services increasingly getting online and digitised. This used to be a big friction before.
3. Govt services are increasingly streamlined in last 10 years e.g. Huge improvement in passport application/renewal
4. Investing heavily in physical infrastructure. E.g About 36 KM/day is getting added as National Highways [1]
5. Biggest Tax Reform called GST in last 50 years. The implementation is shaky but improving.
6. Incentivising production in India called PLI scheme. It received huge response [2]
As far as startups are concerned, the sentiment here (at least for me) is "we-can-also-do-this" and "we-can-be-the-best". This uptick in confidence is palpable (again where I am standing)
10 years ago, I would have never imagined electric scooters/cars being designed (and not just manufactured) in India [3]
I can't speak about India, but I am a Romanian who worked in Austria, and when coming back, I noticed the infrastructure is lacking, especially public transport.
Still, with my savings and investments, my quality of life is much better than a typical Romanian's, though not quite on par with Austria's.
One thing that people who haven't lived in India don't realise -- depending on where you live (much like in the US), you can have an extremely high quality of life, including access to world class education and healthcare. And it would be even higher for someone coming back from the US, since they would have friend and family networks in addition to everything else. The only thing that would be truly hard to get away from would be the pollution and traffic in the cities.
Quality of life is actually pretty great in India once you pass a certain income threshold. I would argue that its higher in certain aspects especially if your family is back there.
Many people somehow are able to overlook the lack of infrastructure and accident prone roads. Family+having access to maids, cooks, drivers, etc is a big driver of this behavior.
There's immense variance in the quality of life you can find in India. In some places (esp. private townships) you'll feel no different than in classier parts of Europe, in others you'll be apalled at how one can humanely live here. The chaos is.. an acquired taste. I find beauty in it.
> but I'd imagine that things like infrastructure are far worse in India
That is true, but most tech folks live in cities like Bangalore, Hyderabad and Pune and can skip bad infra part. For residential there are premium societies and here office spaces are build like hotels.
For transport there are metros(ongoing in Bangalore) . Roads are only unavoidable bad infra.
Sure, if you want to work for a big multinational. I just looked at his LinkedIn and after he moved back he had the same job (Eng manager) remotely (this was about 15 years ago) but when he moved into management he switched to management and now running the Indian sub of a different multinational.
We had lunch around the time he made the switch and he’d just dropped his kids off at tutoring then he went to pick them up from Judo after our meal, i.e, basically the same as if he’d stayed in New Jersey.
Readit News
There’s a nice shiny shell of Indian startups now for sure, but the fundamental rotten core of Indian magistration is still there. There are smart people but for every smart cookie that didn’t leave the country there are 5 charlatans demanding the same salary now. Pretty much every successful startup in India is massively building on top of cheap slave labor / bad tech regulation / gambling. VCs are pouring money here because where else can they go? China? Middle East? How long will it last? Who knows.
Not saying india is not going to be successful, but to bet on it’s success over the same industry in the US is at best speculation.
Now coming to the society disadvantages, viz. the pollution and water scarcity, abject inequality in your face, and my god let’s not start on the safety of women (my partner said she will never bring a girl child up in india and i incline to agree). The last point is in particular interesting because only naive people have shrugged it off to my face till now. If you are a guy (or worse a girl) who insists it’s not that bad in india, then you grew up with extreme privilege or are extremely clueless about realities of life in this country. Anyways choose away but don’t for a second suggest this is somehow better.
There are pros and cons of this sense of community as well, people can be nosy. However, coming back from India recently, I felt pretty depressed and alone. In North America, everyone seems like a busy worker bee that is working all the time. On the weekend, the bees explore a little bit more. Go hiking, or explore their other hobbies. But the sense of aloneness is something I never knew I had until I went back to India.
Aside: This was my first trip back after having done a few when I was young and hating those since I was just stuck in the house as a YA and had limited internet access. The country, the people, have come far from that and as an adult I have all the freedom to do whatever the fk I want too.
I only lived in Bangladesh until age 5, and have spent nearly my whole life in America, but this sense of loneliness hit me really hard when I had my own kids. I remember being surrounded by aunties and cousins at their age, and my kids aren’t. Just in the last year we had a critical mass of neighborhood kids move in, but for my oldest, it was a very solitary childhood until age 8 or so.
This doesn’t just happen in india but also in the states where there are “tight knit communities”. Aka small church focused towns. Jobless people knowing each other seems like one of the fundamental problems hindering human freedom to me.
I think this is the biggest difference - economic differences are quite large in nominal terms but life always goes on, there's going to be food on the table and roof over your head.
Coming from East Asia a lot of my friends are not used to this - but I find myself enjoying the loneliness of it all - being on a boat in the middle of the lake at the middle of the night with no one around you in 2 miles radius is a blessing.
For a similar reason, I never liked New York, SF or LA in the US.
Given the author's impressive credentials and ambitious tone, he would be a fool to choose to wait 195 years [1] for a green card.
[1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2021/03/01/immig...
As an Indian kid growing up on Cartoon Network, I was quite envious of western kids with skateboards and actual skate parks, tons of toys, gizmos and game consoles.
Once you start knowing people well, they start opening up about their past and I have come to realise 3 out 4 of them, pretty decent well educated people have had to struggle with alcoholic/abusive/loveless parents, addictions of their own, depression.
I just realised even though things were pretty bad in terms safety (traffic), sanitation, health or access to simple things like telephones or material comforts, most "middle class" Indians grew up in pretty safe social settings.
Somethings like safety has certainly improved substantially, but certainly some like alcoholism has grown exponentially bad.
My wife also has a similar opinion - that being a woman in India is very hard. Yet, she wants to go back to India more than me.
Also the same amount of money goes a long way in India than in US. Rents, medical costs, etc are way cheaper.
It has lot of potential but at the end of the day it’s corrupt to the core, cities are hyper polluted and the infrastructure is abysmal(Although better than two decades ago).
I also didn’t like it that the government supports Russia.
What do you also think about safety with so much of gun violence and abuse going on in USA?
In our experience, private schools in India are much better and probably safer for kids. They offer all-round learning experience (books/studies, sports, cultural experience etc.) and hot fresh meals as well. It is expensive and hence it is not commonly available to all kids, but I don't think such school experience is available in USA as well (especially cold and frozen food given in schools).
While I agree about some of your points related to safety, pollution, and overall civic sense, I don't think it living in US is somehow better. May be you are living in USA with extreme privilege and/or with narrow vision and mindset. :)
But honestly choosing between US and India to raise kid is choosing between two very bad options and there are more options in world, someone with IT background shouldn't have many issues to move to Europe which would be certainly better option long term raising the family, but maybe slightly worse career wise.
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> India’s rising startup and tech wave
> Massive switch from wealth accumulation mode to wealth creation mode.
> And the amount of VC funding in India combined with the startup ecosystem’s energy here is absolute fire
> The collective risk appetite has never been higher.
> The step after the ‘American dream’ is the ‘Indian dream’.
This is great to hear about India. The more developed and economically successful the world’s largest democracy is, the better for the world in general. The US, Europe, and allies should be doing whatever we can to support this.
It is and I hope india is able to develop.
> The more developed and economically successful the world’s largest democracy is, the better for the world in general.
Who cares whether india is a democracy or not? It's so odd people parrot the propaganda so religiously. Every post about india inevitably mentions something about india being the largest democracy. Who cares? If india wasn't a democracy, should we hope 1.4 billion indians revel in poverty?
> The US, Europe, and allies should be doing whatever we can to support this.
We will support as long as india is poor and unsuccessful. As soon as they get rich and strong, we'll attack them just like we did to japan in the 80s and china today. The largest geographical democracy is russia and boy we surely don't support them. And we sanctioned india when they developed nukes in 90s, even though they were a democracy.
How about we support india lifting hundreds of millions of humans being out of poverty and worry less about democracy which has kept them in poverty for nearly years after independence?
Every human being on the planet who doesn't want to live in a dictatorship subject to the whims of one or few strongmen, or to be disappeared with no legal recourse for saying or thinking the wrong thing, or to have the valuable things they've built stolen by the unaccountable powerful.
There was a brief interregnum to history after the fall of the USSR, where we all thought authoritarianism would disappear if we just all get rich together, and that the culmination of human social evolution was liberal democracy and free markets.
Unfortunately none of that is true, and authoritarianism is on the rise again. You can pretend not to see it or that it doesn't matter if you wish, but that won't change the reality.
And Russia is no longer a democracy, the US has never attacked Japan post-WWII, and US has been extremely generous to China until Xi Jinping took over and began his campaign of regional and world domination.
Anybody who wants to do business. Democracies have stable, predictable rule of law. Do you want to invest in a country where a dictator could simply decide that he is going take your assets?
India has massive dependency on Russian military hardware and spare parts. So what should it do, just break off with Russia over a war in the Europe and get screwed itself when China-Pak nexus comes knocking on the border? No country in the world would do that, none-zero-zilch…
Moreover, Europe itself is buying Russian oil and gas, and wants India to stop - that reeks of double standards..
International politics is much murkier than national politics, so nothing is ever black or white.
Do you know that Europe is _still_ buying from Russia??
Do you know that the US is also _still_ buying from Russia??
India does about $8Bn/year of trade with Russia. That's peanuts.
And nearly 50% of the tankers carrying Russian oil are Greek; and yet you don't hear a word about Greece.
Or that Europe would in anyway want to give up on its Russian gas and oil, while pointing fingers at India which buys less than 1%.
In fact they fear it might go the same way as the sanctions on Iran, where India had to go through Germany banks to pay its Iranian dues, where Indian banks were expected to abide by sanctions while German banks were not.
There's always a double standard at play. For EU, buying oil is a necessary evil. For India, it's "supporting" the enemy.
India isn't a colony, and India is capable of and willing to be a mediator to bring peace, the west isn't or won't.
In fact I did some tutoring to a school for poorer pupils, many of them second generation from the Philipines (so born in Hong Kong, where I immigrated, with two parents born in PH).
When I told them I was an immigrant they were dumbfounded "but then you re very lucky to have arrived here", I was like "not at all, immigration is a choice, you dont need to feel victim of it, we're not here by luck but by work and opportunity seizing".
Talking of immigrants as victims is like talking of africans as "subevolved" charity needing parasites: it hides most of the truth of it.
Every expat is an immigrant, every immigrant is an expat. You left for a reason, and it s always money or a girl.
That then shades into other meaning, which is one of someone living abroad that doesn't expect to stay, or retains a strong cultural connection with their home country, or doesn't mix with the local population (c.f. "expat ghetto" to describe a locale primarily inhabited or frequented by such people).
I don't know what the dictionary definition says, but I wouldn't say "immigrant" and "expat" mean the same thing to me.
They're by no means as rich as some of the Chinese visitors to those destinations.
More:
Why are white people expats when the rest of us are immigrants? Surely any person going to work outside their country is an expatriate? But no, the word exclusively applies to white people
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals...
When is an immigrant not an immigrant? When they’re rich. The British diaspora in the Gulf and Brunei are seen as useful – it’s only poor immigrants who are seen as a problem
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/10/immigr...
Two different things.
When you're creating products for developing countries, you have to build for a certain market. The one in India is enormous and prosperity is increasing (although the pandemic has been a setback, yes).
To add to this, there are no appointments for Visa Stampings back in the home country because of which many people dropped their travel plans; and USCIS doesn't give a damn about it. Life is more or less crippled at this point. Now, would all this still be outweighed by a First World living quality? In the beginning when I was young I used to think "yes". But I've realized lately that it's a big "no". Days are making me think about my plan to move back out to home country or our peaceful northern neighbor.
> To amend the Immigration and Nationality Act to reform and reduce fraud and abuse in certain visa programs for aliens working temporarily in the United States, and for other purposes.
For a long time, desis treated the H1-B system as a permanent immigration visa, and Americans looked the other way. My family came here in 1989 under the old H1 program. That’s no longer true. Americans feel that the country is full and will increasingly be enforcing the letter of the law. Desis should internalize that. Unless they’re eligible for a real immigrant visa (in America, the main one is the family reunification visa) they should either go to Canada or Australia, which need people, or help improve India.
This is false. The H1B is a 'dual intent visa', which means it "allows foreigners to be temporarily present in the U.S. with lawful status and immigrant intent".
> Unless they’re eligible for a real immigrant visa (in America, the main one is the family reunification visa)
This is false. An H1B ("temporary worker") from, say, Iraq or Serbia has no wait times for a green card. In contrast, a child ("family reunification") of a Mexican US Citizen must wait at least 20 years for a green card.
I don't think so. At this point Americans don't seem to care. In ripe cities, they see many immigrants from different countries many of who are GC holders or citizens. Btw many of them came here a couple years ago on the same h1b visa, so not sure why only Indians should be looking at it differently?
The fact is America always needs high-skilled labor, to keep its economy at the No.1 position. They're however, not ready to reward that labor so readily.
The whole comment is so uninformed it’s just wholly nonsense. It’s fiction from the /r/asablackman genre.
Perhaps the literal interpretation of the law reaffirms your argument for the temporary status of the visa but that doesn't take away from the fact that H1-B visa holders have progressed to the permanent residence status through this track in the past.
This doesn't mean that every and each one of them is entitled now to this immigration status upgrade but this sentiment of "Here it says temporary in the law so you better pack up and leave now" is a bit unfair.
I used to think the same, that the Americans don't really want us. But when the corona pandemic related lockdowns happened, and US banned people from India, US still allowed Indian college students. So there must be some need. These students are not coming to US for education, they are coming here to work, and get green card and become a citizen.
https://www.insidehighered.com/quicktakes/2021/05/03/us-rest...
> For a long time, d###s treated the H1-B system as a permanent immigration visa...D###s should internalize that.
And that is why I think posts like this are important. So that Indians who are considering moving to US know the ground reality, and make informed decisions rather than regret it later in life.
Exactly my thoughts. The poor quality air or the mad traffic in Indian cities feels a lot better than the insane stress the visa situations put me through the last few years.
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A lot of people i know moved to US because of huge salary gap. Now that gap has reduced a lot and you can save more in India maintaing same lifestyle.
And EU/Uk pays 2x or 0.4-0.5x adjusting for cost of living.
Devs in India are getting paid _more_ now adjusting for cost of living..
It's just that, cost of living stops making sense after a specific amount. For a lot of things $1 = $1
You want to buy a laptop in India? still costs $2000. Vacation to Exotic Islands? Would still cost the same.
But lets be real, isn't the quality of life much worse? I've never been there (or in the US, for that matter), but I'd imagine that things like infrastructure are far worse in India. Also, the country seems so... chaotic, the cultural shock must be crazy.
1. Since, I am from North India, Bangalore treats us like foreigners i.e. if you don't speak the native language, you will be at a significant disadvantage when requiring the assistance of police.
2. Rather, the police has been known to discriminate against `outsiders`. You can even head over to r/bangalore to know more.
3. The income inequality is real and through the roof. We tech people make much much more than any other private profession and this has made the general population unhappy.
4. Lastly, there isn't much to do besides going out to pubs/cafes.
Which is why I've been leetcoding and preparing to emigrate to Canada/UK. While it's true that I can save a lot more money here (in real terms! At PPP, my monthly savings allows me live for several months without an income) but at what cost.
1. Yeah the language barrier can be a lot - but no matter which city I lived in - I have always had people help me out with the local language. In smaller villages/towns - it can be harder to find people who can do that for you though.
2. I can't say much about this because I didn't have to deal with this in a meaningful way.
3. I think it is more complicated than "tech people make much more". As a point of reference - the street food vendors (pani puri guys for eg.), the uber drivers, the blue collar workers and sometimes even the house help i talked to - they all made more money than the "IT people" they provide services to. And outside IT - my doctor, lawyer, architect friends all earn quite well - while being under a lot less stress. I do see huge income inequality though - but at the same time it is more complicated than I thought it would be.
4. Honestly - I used to think the same too but you need to figure out what/where to look at. We IT folk tend to live in a bubble (Especially when living in another city) and that hides a lot of the cultural aspects of the city from us. I have had friends who are into hiking, cycling, rock climbing, theater, dance classes, standup comedy, music making, painting, cooking clubs. And sometimes, You really might be alone when it comes to some hobbies. But that's when your high PPP can come in real handy and help you get started with your own club. I don't think "I can save a lot more money here but..." would be a problem once you figure out what exactly you want to spend that money on.
This is true true virtually everywhere in the world.
> Lastly, there isn't much to do besides going out to pubs/cafes.
I am just amazed at this comment. The wondrous ruins of Hampi are just a train ride away. Then there's the UNESCO protected majestic western ghats few hours away, and not to mention the pristing beaches of Malpe and Udupi. I mean Chamundi hills, Hogenakkal etc is right next to the city.
(And while I don't mean to deny your personal experience, I've never faced any trouble in Bangalore despite not being a Kannadiga.)
Here are my ₹2
> quality of life
"Quality" is subjective. My wife and I value having our parents around, being able to afford a cook/maid/nanny, not having to deal with winter and darkness, ...
> infrastructure
For sure it's worse in India. But our lifestyle here is such that we don't have to deal with it frequently. We live next to friends, in a arguably beautiful society, and when we do need something done, we inevitably "know a guy who knows a guy", who can help sort things out without us having to deal with the subpar infra. But yes, for sure India could do a lot better on this front.
> chaotic
For someone like me, who was born and raised here, it is easy to thrive in this chaos. This is home.
Having domestic servants is only possible in placesi of high inequality.
1. Climate: India is definitely sunny and enjoys predictable weather patterns all year round. Climate change might upset the equation, but it is still bright and sunny.
2. Biodiversity: India is 7th largest country with lots of great places to visit. Mountains, deserts, beaches, jungles, plains etc are all there and South East Asia and Africa are just a flight away. India is 2nd only to Africa when it comes to wildlife.
3. Food: Most Indians eat locally grown stuff sourced from the region and there is an amazing variety of fruits and vegetables that are local to the regions.
4. Social support: The society is definitely more warm and cordial compared to USA. There is house help readily available and the extended family support is unbeatable.
5. Booming tech scene: India will soon need to support it's own internal market which is growing exponentially. The success of Byju's DarwinBox etc is just a start.
P.S. Balaji Srinivasan goes into details about ascending vs descending societies here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlY8HICFiRs&t=4183s
>Climate
Definitely hotter in most (80%) of India, from late February to mid-October. US states enjoys more cloudless sunny weather per annum.
>Biodiversity: India is 7th largest country with lots of great places to visit. Mountains, deserts, beaches, jungles, plains [...]
US is almost a continent. It has all these and more. Sorry.
> Food: Most Indians eat locally grown stuff sourced from the region
True for US too. California, Midwest, Florida and North Carolina produce majority of US food primary produce. Infact, they export it. And we import a lot of these to India.
There is house help readily available in the U.S. - the caveat is that you can't afford it unless you're super-wealthy relative to the average population. Incidentally, that's the same in India.
I went back recently in 2017/18 and between the 400ppm smog (when there was a wildfire near me in CA it was like 160) and people driving the wrong way across lanes in the smog fog and the traffic and poverty, I found the occasional Mercedes and other luxury car stuck sideways in traffic in the middle of the four lane highway that’s now somehow 9 to be extremely ironic.
I know I personally would find it extremely difficult to move there. I couldn’t deal with the fact that we went to a ultra luxury mall and came outside to be surrounded once again my mind boggling poverty and seeing everything from beggars to people in Benzes stuck in the same road. You go back to your nice home and still hear honking or breathe in the smog.
Moving to America was my lottery winning experience. I’m forever grateful for it.
That use to be the case. The shine has definitely worn off. I would say the work culture in Indian product companies are much more closer to its western counterparts. (Service companies are a different ball-game)
> But lets be real, isn't the quality of life much worse
In my opinion, India is worse off in 2 things primarily: 1. Population density in cities 2. Poorer govt. Having said that a lot of things have improved in last decade:
1. Payment infrastructure is probably the best in the world.
2. Govt services increasingly getting online and digitised. This used to be a big friction before.
3. Govt services are increasingly streamlined in last 10 years e.g. Huge improvement in passport application/renewal
4. Investing heavily in physical infrastructure. E.g About 36 KM/day is getting added as National Highways [1]
5. Biggest Tax Reform called GST in last 50 years. The implementation is shaky but improving.
6. Incentivising production in India called PLI scheme. It received huge response [2]
As far as startups are concerned, the sentiment here (at least for me) is "we-can-also-do-this" and "we-can-be-the-best". This uptick in confidence is palpable (again where I am standing)
10 years ago, I would have never imagined electric scooters/cars being designed (and not just manufactured) in India [3]
[1] https://www.news18.com/news/auto/road-network-in-india-showe...
[2] https://www.cnbctv18.com/auto/govt-receives-huge-response-to...
[3] https://www.atherenergy.com/ https://pravaig.com/
I can't speak about India, but I am a Romanian who worked in Austria, and when coming back, I noticed the infrastructure is lacking, especially public transport.
Still, with my savings and investments, my quality of life is much better than a typical Romanian's, though not quite on par with Austria's.
That is true, but most tech folks live in cities like Bangalore, Hyderabad and Pune and can skip bad infra part. For residential there are premium societies and here office spaces are build like hotels.
For transport there are metros(ongoing in Bangalore) . Roads are only unavoidable bad infra.
His brother, however, has been in the states for decades and I’m sure will never move back. So there is no magic answer.
I keep telling myself I will move back to the country of my birth, but haven’t yet. The work here is too much fun.
We had lunch around the time he made the switch and he’d just dropped his kids off at tutoring then he went to pick them up from Judo after our meal, i.e, basically the same as if he’d stayed in New Jersey.