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Posted by u/mohanmcgeek 4 years ago
Ask HN: Why is there a chip shortage?
I've heard the reason that global automakers cancelled chip orders in the early months of the pandemic and then decided to order them anyway a few months later and that caused a backlog.But I also hear that those are 120nm chips.

So why are graphics cards, gaming consoles etc out of stock? Why is Apple attributing fewer iPhones sold to semiconductor shortage?

Can automakers not use a 7nm fab?

How much of the chip shortage can be attributed to AMD and Apple taking the laptop market away from Intel? And if this is true, does this mean that Intel now has unused capacity?

TradingPlaces · 4 years ago
1. During the pandemic, consumer durables went from ~10-11% of consumption to ~13%. 3 percentage points of consumption is about half a trillion dollars annually. Many of these durables come with cheap microcontrollers or even high end SoCs now. New vehicles have dozens of cheap microcontrollers. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?g=Ktkq

2. If you look at that chart, you will see that the decade previous to the pandemic was the worst ever for durable goods demand. Supply chains had adjusted to that.

3. Supply chains had also all gone to a JIT model to keep inventories lower. This was a huge source of efficiencies, but made them vulnerable to a demand shock.

4. There are new sources of chip demand in EVs.

5. There are new sources of chip demand for very cheap ARM and RISC-V chips. High volume, low margin stuff that has been underinvested for manufacturing, like the entire auto chip chain.

6. 2019 was a down cycle, and companies were idling capacity.

7. When the pandemic hit, companies projected lower demand, and idled more capacity. This put them in a huge hole from which they still have not extricated themselves.

8. COVID outbreaks in Asian factories complicate things

9. Transportation bottlenecks complicate things

TradingPlaces · 4 years ago
Also, to answer your other specific questions…

1. Yes, everyone cancelled orders and idled capacity. Everyone was anticipating a deep and long recession until the fiscal/monetary bomb of March/April 2020. See #7 above.

2. The 120nm legacy nodes and similar are right at the center of the whole shortage. This has been underinvested for years because it has been low demand growth and low margin. Automakers are particularly vulnerable, because for years, every new feature has gotten its own cheap microcontroller to run it. There are now dozens in new cars.

3. Graphics cards have been affected by crypto miners sucking up supply at any cost, and everyone not named “Apple” competing for TSM’s top end processes.

4. iPhones don't just come with Apple A-Series chips made on TSM’s top-end node, but a host of others, some made on legacy processes where the shortage is. Likely we are talking about some cheap analog power chips or something like that. Apple has decided to push as much supply chain problems to iPad as they can.

5. For the vast majority of what automakers want, 7nm is overkill. Once there are more high end SoCs running multiple systems including self/assisted-driving, that will come into play. But that is not where the shortage is concentrated.

6. Apple was Intel’s 4th biggest customer before they left, so it has had a small impact, but only at TSM at their top node. Samsung has picked up Qualcomm and AMD as a result.

Crazy times in the semi world.

csours · 4 years ago
Disclosure: I work for GM, what follows is solely my own opinion and perception of reality.

On #1 also bear in mind that the supply chain is deep and complicated. OEM (GM, Toyota, Tesla, Ford etc) orders a number of COMPONENT X that contains a chip from a Tier 1 supplier. Tier 1 supplier order subcomponents from other suppliers. (Continue this until you have built a very confusing interdependent supply web).

At any level of this, anyone could have (and did) cancel their orders in 2020. As in OEMs cancelled some orders, Tier 1 suppliers cancelled some orders, Tier X suppliers cancelled some orders, etc.

saxonww · 4 years ago
> 2. The 120nm legacy nodes and similar are right at the center of the whole shortage. This has been underinvested for years because it has been low demand growth and low margin. Automakers are particularly vulnerable, because for years, every new feature has gotten its own cheap microcontroller to run it. There are now dozens in new cars.

> 5. For the vast majority of what automakers want, 7nm is overkill. Once there are more high end SoCs running multiple systems including self/assisted-driving, that will come into play. But that is not where the shortage is concentrated.

There was a discussion about this a few months ago. It's not just that newer nodes are overkill, it's that auto components apparently have very long and expensive validation requirements, which would be another explanation for why they are still depending on these older manufacturing processes.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28728965

kurthr · 4 years ago
I know it's a nitpick, but I've never heard of 120nm... lots of 130 some 110 (half-node) and lots of 90nm.

Most of the 8inch wafer supply (mostly >90nm) was no where near capacity before the pandemic and supply restrictions. China did buy up a lot of it (actually moving equipment) and perhaps those were closed down?

Much of the legacy 12inch supply was fairly constrained even before the pandemic (especially specialty 55 and 40nm) due to shifts in display driver needs for OLED. The relatively new 10 & 7nm were pretty well dedicated to known customers.

Much of Automotive is in the larger 180nm to 90nm range with some 28nm for SOC due to cost, reliability, and legacy test qualifications. Except for entertainment only Tesla really uses much smaller than 22nm. It's interesting that they seem to have been willing to use commodity processors much more, and that seems to have made their supply chain more resilient (at the prices they were willing to pay).

It's interesting because a lot of mixed-signal analog really doesn't shrink well 28nm, and requires a lot of redesign to be cheaper than 180nm. There are ways to get down to 14nm and below, but the design costs require huge economies of scale to pay off.

The last couple of years in Semi really has been a game of how much are you willing to pay for the old backlog of parts that were hard to sell earlier. Only now are some new designs really making it out a year later. It's supply chain, but it's also price gouging and just taking profits while you can (why build more when margins will only plummet?). I do worry about the risks of concentration of this production in China.

noveltyaccount · 4 years ago
What does this mean? "Apple has decided to push as much supply chain problems to iPad as they can." Starve iPad so everything else can thrive?
foobiekr · 4 years ago
Honestly, the worst part is we find the short supplies are in these stupid, low-end, cents-a-pop chips that have nothing to do with high end processes. Especially in PSU applications.
Rarok · 4 years ago
Question about your 5. 7nm is overkill in performance but... isn't it better if they get more chips per wafer?
PragmaticPulp · 4 years ago
I would add: Many chips were becoming difficult to source before the pandemic hit. The pandemic-related demand and supply shock only made it worse.

Source: Spent many weeks fighting supply chain issues and leading redesigns in 2018-2019 due to the beginning of the chip shortage.

I know the shortage is associated with the pandemic because that's when most people started hearing about it, but it was a growing problem even before COVID came along.

TradingPlaces · 4 years ago
Curious, what were you trying to source, and in what volumes?
roughly · 4 years ago
> 3. Supply chains had also all gone to a JIT model to keep inventories lower. This was a huge source of efficiencies, but made them vulnerable to a demand shock.

I think it's worth emphasizing this - all of the other issues you describe are correct, but what's allowing individual disruptions to turn into a global crisis is a lack of buffering between components of the individual systems. This is a known issue with JIT, and in some ways it's factored into the models - assuming one bad year in ten, 9 very good years can still be more profitable than 10 pretty good years - but it widens the possible set of outcomes and allows for these kinds of cascading failures, which makes it harder for one institution to model or plan around.

rossdavidh · 4 years ago
It's also the sort of thing where if you're the first one using it, the costs of it are not nearly as large as when the whole economy is using it. Your buffer is, in effect, being stored at other people's factories. This is logically predictable, but was not in fact widely appreciated before the current problems, perhaps because this is the first shock to come after JIT was almost universally used.
fragmede · 4 years ago
8b. Flooding in Malaysia where the factories are located. Some may attribute this to ordinary flooding, others may attribute it to global warming.

https://techwireasia.com/2021/12/malaysian-floods-devastate-...

Aeolun · 4 years ago
Can confirm that this has had direct effect on car manufacturing in Asia.
Cromation · 4 years ago
Maybe its a stretch but I was doing research into North Korean hacks from APT38 and noticed that TSMC had been hit by WannaCry in mid/late 2018 shutting down some of their chip manufacturing facilities. Would it be possible to believe this snowballed into what we have today with a series of bad situations?
nikrdc · 4 years ago
Re (1): It looks like (consumer durables / consumer expenditures) returned to the level it was at prior to the late-2000s recession. Do you have any explanations for what happened from 2010 to 2020? Seems like 12-15% is a more "normal" level than the 10-11% we saw during the 2010s.
TradingPlaces · 4 years ago
Very good question and long discussion. But the short of it is that people favored experiences over things with their spare income. A trip to Disneyland instead of a new TV. Now Disney seems too dangerous for many, so they buy more TVs. This is the most dramatic shift in consumer preferences ever.
sva_ · 4 years ago
> 4. There are new sources of chip demand in EVs.

I think there are also new sources of chip demands in other industries, such as perhaps companies utilizing ML having their own chip designs. But I'm not sure how much that plays into the issue.

11thEarlOfMar · 4 years ago
Several factors:

1. There was real and relatively sudden increase in demand:

a. COVID-driven in part, all students and many additional employees had to buy computers to study/work from home,

b. a., driven by video, lead to increased demand on Internet & telecom infrastructure.

c. Electric vehicles consume an order of magnitude more chips than ICE cars. EV demand is also skyrocketing.

2. There were fabs (semiconductor factories) shut down due to COVID. This one in Malaysia [0] makes power chips and was particularly problematic for ICE auto makers.

3. The first indication of problems manifested in chip lead times pushing out. As buyers started to see more and more of this, they started increasing orders and soon adopted a hoarding mentality, similar to why many of us couldn't find toilet paper in stores early in the pandemic.

Result: As a personal anecdote, a chip that sells for $0.47 from that fab in Malaysia recently sold for $75 on the broker market.

Note that no, the state of the art fabs cannot be re-outfitted to make legacy chips. The old equipment they were developed on is generally no longer available and the profit from making those inexpensive chips would not justify the capital spend on new equipment.

[0] https://www.reuters.com/article/infineon-results-malaysia/in...

Tarragon · 4 years ago
Regarding #3: We had an FPGA that is normally in stock or at most a few weeks lead time push out to a 56 weeks lead time. (Side note: This is for machine used to in chip manufacturing... uhm, oops.)

What happened then is that the vendor prioritized larger more expensive parts. They use more silicon per part but the over all profit per wafer is higher. It's not a terrible decision, it's possible to move designs to an over provisioned FPGA but usually not the other way. The lead time for higher end parts started coming down, not to normal, but less than a year. Meanwhile lead-times for the low end parts kept getting longer.

r-bryan · 4 years ago
This scenario is very reminiscent of the leadup to the Innovator's Dilemma. The dinosaurs grow taller and fatter seeking and thriving on the juicy foliage higher up the tree, while the scrappy little mammals claw away at its soft underbelly.

Nobody's going to fabricate semiconductors in their garage. But couldn't someone make a modest profit without first investing $2.0e10, like Intel? Or is it just that the profitability scale is such that if you had an extra $2.0e7 to invest, you're better off buying Intel stock?

x0x0 · 4 years ago
Also, the Texas storms caused hard power cuts to multiple chip factories, erasing, in the best case, a full month of chip production as they slowly restart the factories [1]. These chips are, btw, generally built on such old tech that Intel is refusing to fab them [2]. So I would have thought a chip was a chip, but apparently car chips can only be sourced from a handful of specific fabs.

Car manufacturers are clearly going to start building huge inventories of them though:

> “Because of a 50-cent chip, we are unable to build a car that sells for $50,000,” said Murat Aksel, head of procurement for Volkswagen Group, during a press briefing in Munich last week. [2]

Ouch. Though honestly, this probably ought to result in some execs being fired... If you sell 100k cars a quarter, imagine telling the board that you saved the interest on $200k and the rent on a small room and that's why you're not selling a vehicle.

[1] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/texan-...

[2] https://fortune.com/2021/09/17/chip-makers-carmakers-time-ge...

bsder · 4 years ago
> Ouch. Though honestly, this probably ought to result in some execs being fired

It should, but it won't because everybody failed the same way.

It was just like the 2008 banking crisis. Lots of people saw it coming, but reasoned "If I predict doom and mistime it, I'm an outlier and get fired. If I simply keep my head down and cash out and it all goes pear-shaped, I'm simply one of the masses and nobody will notice me."

rubidium · 4 years ago
Can confirm. Anyone working in supply chain is now told to buy 1-4 year supply of as many of the critical chips needed as they can. It used to be all about how JIT could it be. When the whole chip supply chain shifts from JIT to “get all you can while you can” it causes the shortages. 2nd hand market is seeing astounding mark-ups.
jnwatson · 4 years ago
If everyone buys 4 years of supplies, that exacerbates the problem. The supply chain bullwhip effect will be massive.

For the next 3 years, fabs will be swimming in profit. After that, I expect a major correction.

mohanmcgeek · 4 years ago
Does that mean most companies will be using 2020 generation chips until 2024?

Sounds they'll dump it in trash eventually and it'll be a terrible waste of resources

sliken · 4 years ago
> c. Electric vehicles consume an order of magnitude more chips than ICE cars. EV demand is also skyrocketing

Source? My impression is just the opposite. Batteries and an electric motor is a relatively simple device compared to a gas motor. So you replace a fuel pump (and related sensors), cat converter (and sensors), transmission (and sensors), and a hugely complex (1000s of parts) engine (and sensors). Managing maximum efficiency, torque, and HP across the entire RPM range while minimizing emissions is quite an intensive process. Not to mention the interaction between the engine and the (compute controlled) transmission. Especially these days when the simple rules are gone and managing turbos, heat management, etc means that you might give maximum HP, but only for 5-10 seconds or even idling unneeded cyclinders, stopping the engine at redlights, etc.

Tesla in particular as moves many distributed chips into a highly integrated single board, various people (like Monroe on Youtube) claim the Tesla model3 has a market leading level of integration replacing dozens of distributed CPUs with a custom board/ASIC.

phkahler · 4 years ago
I used to work in EVs (and tangentially still do). They really only require some power electronics - gate drivers and IGBTs - in addition to the normal bunch of chips all over the vehicle. So even if demand was "skyrocketing" rather than being a tiny fraction of the market, they shouldn't impact the demand for chips on regular cars.
Manuel_D · 4 years ago
I suspect it's more the case that electric vehicles ship with more "smart" features (touchscreen consoles, mobile phone connectivity, etc.) which in turn leads to larger chip requirements.
UncleOxidant · 4 years ago
Also 4: There's been underinvestment in the sector for years now. Lots of money got plowed into stuff like social media, crypto/blockchain & ML but semiconductors just weren't sexy to the investors.
dymk · 4 years ago
I don’t really buy this idea that chip fabs were being starved of money because of blockchain. Do you have any evidence to back your claim up?
nl · 4 years ago
This isn't true.

Most semiconductor companies are public companies, with deep pockets and plenty of cash on hand. They invest based on forecast demand.

tzs · 4 years ago
> Note that no, the state of the art fabs cannot be re-outfitted to make legacy chips. The old equipment they were developed on is generally no longer available and the profit from making those inexpensive chips would not justify the capital spend on new equipment.

Interesting. I had assumed that the difference between state of the art fabs and older fabs was that state of the art fabs can make smaller things, and perhaps more geometrically complicated things, but that they don't have to. If they wanted to make a design that only uses bigger things and simpler geometry they could.

Where does this assumption break down?

11thEarlOfMar · 4 years ago
State of the art machines are used to make state of the art high-value chips. FPGAs, GPUs, CPUs, RAM, SRAM

As those chips run through their life-cycle, their value drops. After 15 years, the price the chips can sell for will drop 90% or more.

If there is a spike in demand at that point, there is no ROI on purchasing brand new equipment.

The demand spike is seen as temporary. Hence, the chip makers are telling the buyers to design out the old chips and upgrade to new. Many companies can do this. But some are constrained by industry regulation (aerospace) or industry practice (semiconductors).

I've mentioned before the irony that companies that make semiconductor equipment are struggling to ship more tools because they can't get enough (of certain chips) to complete building them.

belltaco · 4 years ago
>Interesting. I had assumed that the difference between state of the art fabs and older fabs was that state of the art fabs can make smaller things, and perhaps more geometrically complicated things, but that they don't have to. If they wanted to make a design that only uses bigger things and simpler geometry they could.

>Where does this assumption break down?

Why would they want to? There is heavy and overbooked demand for the 'smaller and complicated things' that make more money, and add the extra cost of the design to make the 'bigger and smaller' things, and it's a no brainer.

RicoElectrico · 4 years ago
CMOS devices scale in all 3 dimensions, including gate oxide.

It is quite unlike, say, PCB fabrication, which is way more flexible with regards to layer stack-up.

jnwatson · 4 years ago
Good list. Also, Taiwan drought and Texas freezing impacted some fabs last year.
tuatoru · 4 years ago
And the fire in Ajinomoto's factory that makes Ajinomoto Buildup Film, used in high-end chips, briefly cut production of those.

I vaguely recall a shortage of epoxy resins as well. (For packaging chips, and for printed-circuit boards). It seems like more went wrong than usually does in 2020-21, even leaving aside the pandemic.

chrischen · 4 years ago
Non EVs also need a lot of silicon for infotainment, driver assist, etc. it’s not just EVs demand that is skyrocketing. All cars are.
eb0la · 4 years ago
True, but I believe there is also a missing factor: When people wasn't able to get outta home, demand for cars plummeted. And whoever made ICs as for cars just had the opportunity to fill the gap from automakers with more lucrative parts.
midjji · 4 years ago
One thing I heard from a guy working on chip for a big German car company was that they used to have a decades old contract with a major Taiwanese chip manufacturer which had extremely good terms for the Germans. In particular with terms to delivery times, and fees for late deliveries, and price. This deal had apparently been used as a framework for the purchase of not just the then used chips, but pretty much all latter ones too. In retrospect the deal seems to have been at the very least partially politically motivated by Taiwan, but the chip manufacturer could not cancel the framework agreement without significant penalties. There was however an option for the car manufacturer to cancel quite freely, and when the news of the pandemic hit, they did. It seems like no one in the department quite understood just how extremely good the conditions had become over the decades, and after they canceled it, and decided they wanted the same deal back... Well lets just say they are at the back of the line despite paying substantially more than they used too.
jasonwatkinspdx · 4 years ago
Ironically enough demand for cars went up during COVID. I can't tell you why, but I know it's a fact. Lack of supply is certainly a factor but I think there's probably more going on. Go check how insane the market is right now. It's nearly impossible to buy a new car, and used cars are selling at way above the notional blue book value.
baybal2 · 4 years ago
I became 3400 dollars richer buy selling few old unused stm32 reels

Deleted Comment

blincoln · 4 years ago
I'm sure there are a lot of significant factors, especially for different types of chip, but also pretty confident the shortages related to GPUs and similar are due in no small part to the massive buildouts of digital Chuck E. Cheese token factories, e.g.:

https://twitter.com/wired/status/1335445557788233728

https://twitter.com/BitcoinMagazine/status/14149943888208977...

https://twitter.com/dmgblockchain/status/1438547780646019086

AFAIK, the cost to add significant additional manufacturing capability for most products means that increased demand has to be forecast for a really long time to be worthwhile. Hence why it was still hard to find quality nitrile gloves, isopropyl alcohol, and Clorox wipes during 2020 even though everyone knew there was a bigger market for them for potentially quite awhile. I'm sure the chip and hardware manufacturers don't want to invest millions or billions in assembly line machines and then have buying levels drop back to pre-cryptocurrency-mania levels.

pygy_ · 4 years ago
The market has decided that entertaining meatbags was worth less than evading taxes and stifling regulations.

It seems its invisible hand is a bit self-serving, go figure...

n8cpdx · 4 years ago
*Entertaining meat bags who throw a fit at the first hint of prices rising in response to demand.

Perhaps if the gamers wouldn’t jump to calling any price increase over an MSRP defined in 2019 “gouging”, there would be some incentive to prioritize those parts.

Instead, the fair thing to do is to force everyone to camp on Twitter and wait for the “20 Xbox One X/PS5/GTX#### available at Walmart [update: sold out]” post lottery.

It is amazing to me that manufacturers (to be fair, per gamers’ demands) are giving money away to scalpers, instead of using the revenue from higher prices to buy more manufacturing and shipping capacity.

downrightmike · 4 years ago
Good news about all those chucky tokens is that gpus will iterate and innovate much faster than otherwise.
pjc50 · 4 years ago
This does not follow at all; the GPUs were already iterating basically as fast as they can go - after all, why would it be, it's not sped up by putting more on the production line or more engineers on the design side.

NVIDIA at least have been trying anti-cryptomining measures in their firmware. A form of defensive innovation, I suppose.

The crypto advocates really do not want to hear it, but their proof-of-waste scheme has big negative externalities for other people.

chx · 4 years ago
Even without covid, the change to EUV is a massive bottleneck. You see , there is but one company in the entire world who is making the EUV machines, ASML in the Netherlands. EUV was on the "edge" of roadmaps since, I dunno, mid-90s or something. ASML persevered and now reaping the rewards. EUV fabs need a ton of capital and investing this much without good institutional knowledge in chipmaking is too risky. And TSMC and ASML had a very good relationship for a very, very long time including TSMC buying 5% of ASML in 2012. So a very very long history culminated in TSMC being the sole top dog in the industry. Intel tried to make chips with parts similarly small without EUV and it took them an awfully long time to ramp it up -- it was supposed to ship in 2015 https://www.techspot.com/news/48577-intel-rd-envisions-10nm-... and the first desktop processors on this process shipped like two months ago, barely making 2021.

So whether automakers could use a 7nm fab is a theoretical question -- there is but one 7nm fab, the one at TSMC and they already sold every wafer they can start. They would be able to sell more if they could start more but there are only so many EUV machines ASML can make so there are only so many wafers TSMC can make. All the gaming consoles? yeah, that's 7nm chips. With AMD and Apple moving to the next line, there'll be some capacity freeing up but the demand is still very, very strong.

Also, another effect I do not see here is the container disruption. Read https://www.vox.com/recode/22832884/shipping-containers-amaz...

floatboth · 4 years ago
The big shortage seems to be in microcontrollers and power ICs, not the kind of stuff you'd want to fab on TSMC.

Putting an STM32 onto N7 would be nuts.

chx · 4 years ago
OP asked whether automakers could use N7. I answered. Also, in theory, if there would be ample N7 capacity, nuts or not nuts, there's no theoretical problem with it and you could get a real metric shit ton of STM32 out of a single wafer using N7.
geonnave · 4 years ago
Today I learned: EUV stands for Extreme Ultraviolet Lithography.
PaulDavisThe1st · 4 years ago
There's also the confounding issue of the AKM factory fire. AKM made the majority of the DAC chips used for consumer electronics and automobiles, and their factory burned to the ground in 2020. Then another company that tried to step up production to fill the gap (somewhat mysteriously) also caught fire.

https://www.prosoundnetwork.com/business/akm-factory-fire-sh...

There are other companies that make similar chips, but in much smaller quantities, and they are really in no better position than AKM to fill the void.

A recent "update" : https://evertiq.com/design/51031

jwlake · 4 years ago
Older generation fabs for major manufacturers (Samsung, TMSC, others) were heavily impacted by staffing shortages due to covid/lockdown/etc. When staffing is low, the new fabs run 100% and the oldest ones just shutdown.

This caused a bunch of chips that are old and cheap to be complete unattainable, due to a lack of safety stock across the industry. Cars, power supplies, and other "large" things are highly dependent on these older chips, and have very long redesign timelines.

Newer generation is actually simpler, its just demand growth outstripping supply. I'm sure 2020/2021 also impacted the ability to bring more capacity online but probably only to a small extent, these are long term investments that aren't responsive to instantaneous demand.

11thEarlOfMar · 4 years ago
This is correct. Shortages of new generation chips can generally be resolved by new capacity. We are seeing record levels of capacity spend by the chip companies.

However, older chips are difficult to increase capacity for. The tools are not available, and the profit from legacy chips from them is many times insufficient to make the business case for.

mariuolo · 4 years ago
> Can automakers not use a 7nm fab?

Intel offered car manufacturers 16nm chips "as many as they wanted", but they'd have to be re-engineered from, from what I read, 150nm and certified for harsher conditions (temperature, humidity, acceleration, probably noxious fumes if installed under the hood) than consumer electronics, which adds to the cost.

In addition to that, with the upcoming switch to electric cars they probably wouldn't produce enough of them to recoup the investment.

missedthecue · 4 years ago
according to Intel's CEO, chip demand in 2020/2021 was 25% higher than it was in 2019. The typical annual growth for the industry over the last thirty years is 4 or 5 percent a year.

This massive jump in demand has caused backlogs. Covid supply chain issues didn't help.

c7DJTLrn · 4 years ago
>Covid supply chain issues didn't help

It would be nice to get to the bottom of these issues I keep hearing about. Yeah, COVID was/is a big thing but when it comes to feet on the ground, what's the impact? Not this much surely.

Not to be conspiratorial but is this a cover story we're being given? Why does it feel like there's suddenly this massive void in productivity?

noodle · 4 years ago
> what's the impact? Not this much surely.

Yes, this much. I saw someone explain this well enough on reddit, but I can't find a link so I'll try and paraphrase it.

Let's say you're a lumbermill and you run at 100 boards a day in normal times, with enough capacity to do 110 boards a day if you stretch. COVID shut you down for 3 months. You now have a 9000 board deficit from your normal production, with people lined up to buy the boards before you've produced them. Once you get started again, you crank up capacity to 110/day - it takes you 900 days - almost 2.5 years - to recover that original shutdown deficit, without accounting for any of the increased demand for your product.

This is roughly what other industries are experiencing. "Why don't you just make a new factory to increase your production?" well, it would take a long time to do that, would take a lot of capital, the shortages impact you too, and there's no guarantee that once COVID passes, demand won't go back down to 100 boards/day leaving you with a huge unnecessary capacity.

A simple example, of course, but this kind of thing is happening in some form or another in most industries, and will just take some time to work itself out.

gabriel_fishman · 4 years ago
In 2020 I was working for a consumer electronics company and went to some presentations on how our supply chain and operations teams were dealing with the pandemic. I'm far from an expert on this, but this is what I heard from people who were working on this.

First, you had a massive lockdown in China in January 2020, which shut factories temporarily. Then when those factories came back online, the production lines had to be reconfigured so that stations were 2 meters apart. At the same time, a lot of the collaboration that typically happens by people from a company flying out to China to meet with the supplier face-to-face were shifting to video, which frequently met that at least one side of the call was early in the morning or late at night. And as all of that was happening, there were also large shifts in demand as some products saw spikes in orders. That pattern then repeated itself across the world - a company might move production from China to, say, Indonesia, only to see the new factory have to temporarily shut down.

I can imagine that two years of this would create major backlogs and disruptions.

kube-system · 4 years ago
We have just-in-time inventory at all levels of the supply chain. China was shutting down highways between major cities and forbidding people to go out on the street in the earlier parts of the pandemic. I'm surprised the ripple effects haven't been worse.

To turn silicon crystals into a PS5 requires multiple steps in the supply chain which, when running smoothly, have multiple steps where people may be planning years in advance.

Sony builds their products out of dozens of components from different suppliers, which themselves may be made out of finished materials provided by other manufacturers, which in turn may be made out of chemicals or raw ingredients from other companies. The dependency tree is quite big, and if any of them are messed up, you can't finish your product.

Normally all of these dependencies are planned well in advance (quarters or years) so that everything is ready when the time comes to ship. Mess it up one level deep, and you're a quarter to a year behind. Mess it up two levels deep and you're two quarters to two years behind.

On top of this, semiconductor production was already stressed to its limits before COVID.

capableweb · 4 years ago
There has been 5,443,453 deaths from COVID-19 so far, with no end in sight. Just counting the deaths, that's a pretty large impact from something that just appeared two years ago. Not to mention the psychological impact the pandemic has on humans, which is even more than just counting the deaths. This is why productivity is falling off a cliff. Everything changed underneath our feet and people are starting to feel the long-term effects of having a virus lurking around every corner.
HWR_14 · 4 years ago
> what's the impact? Not this much surely.

A few months ago there were seventy billion dollars of goods anchored off of LAs docks alone. Some of those were finished goods, but some are intermediate goods.

It's so bad that it's cheaper to make new shipping containers in China than spend the time to return them once they've been used once. We have a glut of practically new containers clogging up our infrastructure.

Even as COVID stopped causing the direct backups, backups propagate all on their own. Like a giant traffic jam and you get to the front and the accident was cleared hours ago.

manwe150 · 4 years ago
There was a large spike in unemployment in the US/worldwide. Combining that with drastic shifts in consumption patterns, causing a ripple effect in delayed production changes. And perhaps also shortages are just getting more attention right now, simply because people are looking at them more?
wldcordeiro · 4 years ago
A lot of it has been that COVID exposed how many industries were relying on Just In Time fulfillment so then when the demand spiked because people were home isolating the supply wasn't there. I recall a particular story about the toilet paper industry explaining that.
chasd00 · 4 years ago
imagine a quickly moving but congested highway. anyone even tapping the breaks will cause a massive slowdown. I think the chip supply chain is similar.
thanatos519 · 4 years ago
On the contrary. It's a cover story being blown. The system was already operating at the edge of its capacity, and now it's toppling over.
yokaze · 4 years ago
My guess: It is lowered expectations, and people accept the excuse.

So, what would you tell your customers, if you can't deliver on time?

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