I picked up a Kinesis a few month ago and it's been a life changer. I've struggled with shoulder pain since as far back as I can remember. I'd done PT, dry needling, massage, etc etc. I'd even sprung for a personal ergonomic assessment. I'm a cyclist and and keyboard jockey, so most of my waking life is spent in positions that seemed to make it worse. At times it prevented me from sleeping, doing things I enjoyed, etc. I wear a 42 jacket, so I'm not crazy wide or anything.
I'd never seen anything that suggested that split keyboards were a good solve for the shoulder pain but I'd reached that point of just throwing shit at a wall because it was that, or find a new career and hobbies. Moving my keyboard so my forearms can sit slightly wider than perpendicular to my chest has almost completely resolved the shoulder pain and the impact was almost immediate.
Did your doctors or therapists consider Thoracic Outlet Syndrome? I've struggled with severe pain in shoulders, arms, hands and fingers for several years. It was sort of discovered by accident. They removed both of my first ribs (rib resection) and in combination with a Kinesis keyboard and a Wacom pen and tablet as a mouse replacement it's much better now.
Unfortunately, the solution came a bit late. The strain on my nerves and blood vessels caused by the thoracic outlet syndrome has damaged my arm nerves. And after the second rib resection, the one on the left side, my plexus brachialis got severely damaged. It took nearly 2 years to partially recover. My left arm gets tired very fast in certain positions, my left thumb is partially numb and sleeping on my left shoulder can be painful.
I can't image how much worse it would be without my Kinesis Advantage keyboard and my Wacom Bamboo tablet. Using another computer or laptop with an normal keyboard, touchpad or mouse, is hell. An iPad Pro with a pencil (and a tablet stand to hold the tablet) is much better.
Wow! Another TOS survivor. Despite all the RSI talk in the programming community, I still find it very rare that someone is actually diagnosed, let alone, goes through TOS. However, I do suspect that its prevalence is higher than estimated in this target community.
TOS killed my programming career. It ruined my life and brought me untold mental and physical pain. At one point I couldn't use my arms for more than thirty minutes a day. Even taking a shower was exhausting. I underwent two surgeries, one two remove the ribs and muscles entrapping my nerves. After the first surgery things were good for awhile, my hands were no longer purple (due compression on the vein/artery) and I could actually use a keyboard again. Unfortunately scar tissue grew over my nerves and entrapped them again. At this point I required a second surgery to remove the tissue, which worked quite well and enabled my to use my arms again. Unfortunately, nothing is perfect in life and I still have some tissue that is interfering with my neck and causing chronic pain for which I take a variety of medications for. I currently work a low end job in health care because I can't sit at a desk for 8 hours a day without substantial pain (trust me I've tried everything, at this point I could open an ergonomic store).
I just want to give a shout out to a fellow TOS victim, especially one in the tech world. It's a very rare condition and it's very damaging (imaging not being able to touch your phone without pain) and I wish there was more awareness.
After years of pain, I was also diagnosed with TOS. I will not go for surgery however, as this can make things more complicated. A split keyboard (I got the moonlander some months ago) did have a little effect for me, however not a huge one I was hoping for. I'm trying/doing a lot of posture related exercises. Some days its better, some days its hard to get through the work day. Would appreciate any hints which made things better for others with TOS and a desk job. It's a constant trial & error with ups and downs here.
Pretty sure I have TOS too — it's how I came to discover Kinesis keyboards. It's manageable for me now, but I would be curious to find out if there was nerve damage so that I know how further I can improve and what's futile. Can I ask how the doctors determined that there was damage to your arm nerves? E.g. what sort of imaging / tests do they do?
1) Stretching my fingers. Yup. You gotta stretch a) curl motion of each finger, across the top of your hand, b) uncurling motion of each finger, through your palm, c) uncurling the thumb-pinky (touch your pinky to your thumb.. that's what you do when you hold the mouse... do the opposite as a stretch)
2) A good PT who can actually debug my body. I tried 5+ massage/osteo/PT professionals before finding her based on recommendation. Most were completely bad. One was decent but didn't fix the whole problem. Finally I found someone who could fix the problems.
I also got a Kinesis Advantage 2, but honestly with the 2 above tips I'm not sure you need it.
I've had shoulder pain for a couple of years now and I'm reading this right after I bought an old 500 on eBay for $100 two hours ago. I love my Niz topre clone but I need a healthier layout, and now I'm pretty stoked.
Just wanted to thank you for this comment. I have very broad shoulders but have been hacking on Apple keyboards for a few years now - the results are that I have essentially permanent internal rotation of my shoulders. This has led to not being able to breathe properly with my diaphragm, which causes all kinds of issues!
I missed the pre-order, but I grabbed a Logitech ergo kb from the local Microcenter a few days ago and already the changes have been substantial! Of course I am also focusing consciously on the breath, using my diaphragm not my stomach or clavicles. Thanks again! I never considered it until I read your comment.
I can attest to that. I tried microsoft ergonomic keyboards, logitech keboards but they didn't help then i found kinesis freestyle split keyboard and since then almost all the issues are gone. prior to switching to kinesis, i also switched from kwerty to dvorak, It helped but not that much. I used to have issues with my right hand due mouse usage, so i switched from right to left hand because i am right handed and unconsciously i was using it way more then my left. you do need to complement the change with upperbody stretching.
I've been using a Freestyle 2 for a year+ now, 10" split, mouse sits in the middle.
While typing it keeps my arms on the chair's armrests with my hands just extending forward, and the current armrest height keeps my wrists an inch or so above the desk so I don't need to worry about tracking down wrist pads or such.
It depends on what I’m doing. If I’m doing a type intensive task I put it between the split and I use a track pad. Sometimes if I’m doing something mouse intensive I’ll shake it up, but that’s mostly how it stays.
In addition to all the comments from Advantage fans here, I also wanted to add that Kinesis has been an awesome company. I tweeted about some mods I made to my Advantage keyboard a long time ago, and they invited me to their office and donated a bunch of keyboards to the nonprofit I work for, to give as prizes to students (even before they launched the gaming-focused brand).
I delete my really old tweets, but it was actually to make the Advantage Bluetooth-enabled!
I added a Bluetooth keyboard converter, LiPo, and charge controller inside the case.
Unfortunately the Sparkfun documentation for the charge controller implied that it would prevent undervolting which wasn't true, and the battery died. They fixed the documentation but wouldn't send me a replacement battery. I didn't have the money for a new one at the time and reverted it.
I have been a Kinesis user for 8 years, starting with an Advantage USB, added a classic PS2(with a usb adapter) as a backup and then was a tester for the Advantage 2 which I ended up buying. A company I worked for gave me a choice for keyboards when I joined so I tried a Ergodox EZ with the RGB backlighting.
General observations:
1. Overall I prefer the Advantage over the Ergodox. The big reason is the contoured design and the fact that the Ergodox tends to walk around unless you have a solid desk pad underneath it. Also, the Ergodox never felt as comfortable as the Advantage. Yes the Advantage is not as easy to travel with but still....
2. I like the new design, but there are a few things that would have made the pro perfect. PBT backlit keycaps like they offer on the Ergodox-EZ and RGB backlighting...and maybe a set of f-keys (on the fence with the last one).
One other thing... A mix of o-rings and QMX clips made a huge difference with the feel of the keyboard for me. I have been a cherry brown user from the beginning though and different people have different preferences with that.
Kinesis is also really good about providing parts and service. I've had them send me replacement switches and have seen them offer up in-expensive replacement boards to repair and keep older models going.
I'm going to buy one of these, but given that I already have 4 high quality mechanical keyboards and I have yet to have one die I am starting to feel guilty having all of these laying around. That said there is a side of me that is curious about the Keyboard.io :)
Kinesis Advantage 2 is great, but it's massive and hard to travel with. Looks like the 360 might be a bit easier to travel with.
The Kinesis Advantage 2 fits a Magic Trackpad perfectly right in the middle of the keyboard. This lets you perform mouse actions with you right and left hands.
Emacs keybindings never made sense to me till I tried them with the Kinesis. I feel like Emacs sucks on a standard Mac keyboard and is awesome with a Kinesis. See here for a blog post on the topic if you're interested in learning more: https://mungingdata.com/emacs/learning-emacs-keybindings-aft...
It takes a while to get used to the keyboard layout, but only takes a week to get fully productive. You're eventually able to train your brain to operate fluently on Kinesis & Macbook key layouts without any extra thinking. It's a great investment if you're willing to put in a bit of effort.
I bet the kinesis foot pedals would take emacs to the next level too. I use spacemacs in evil mode so I never bothered having to learn all those key chording things for emacs.
I have a kinesis advantage pro with foot pedal but the pedal just sucks to use. Foot is way too big and clumsy to keep pace with fingers, plus it forces you to sit in fixed position or fiddle with the pedal all the time to try and keep it in a comfortable position (trying to use the pedal shows how much I shift around in the chair during the day, nevermind when using a balance chair on wheels).
I rely heavily on the foot pedal. The single-pedal is too light and really wants to be bolted to something heavy so it doesn't slide around. The triple-food pedal is much nicer, just because it's heavy and stays put. I map all three foot-buttons to the same thing.
I have the Kinesis Freestyle 2 and, while the layout is good, I really dislike how the keys feel- very mushy, way too much travel distance, and many keys require moving my entire hand from the home row to properly depress because they're very resistant to non-perpendicular force.
What I really want is an ergo keyboard with Macbook/laptop style low-travel keys.
Freestyle Pro and Edge now have mechanical switches, which are better than the membrane of the Freestyle and Freestyle 2. With the Edge you can even choose the MX Speed Silver, for much shorter travel.
You can try some custom keyboard with low profile switches. There are many open source ones if you're up for the task. One option is cornish zen https://lowprokb.ca/products/corne-ish-zen-2
I built corne light v2 with choc v2 for my personal use.
The Magic Trackpad trick is gold! I did the same thing with my advantage 2 keyboard by taping it down with adhesive tape and it’s been an absolute godsend.
I’ve more or less stopped using a mouse and rely on keyboard shortcuts, when those fail I have the trackpad within striking distance.
I was using the magic trackpad, but due to pain in the back of my wrist I had to abandon it entirely and switch over to a logitech trackman mouse (same spot, right in the middle of the keyboard).
I had this setup for a while, but I had a habit of moving just the index finger, instead of the whole wrist. This caused some inflammation/swelling in the cartilage/muscle between the index and middle finger, so I had to abandon the setup.
+1 I really do like my new Moonlander, which I purchased in November. However, as a former Kinesis Advantage user, I miss the contoured shape, I think it helped a lot with carpal pain.
That said, I'm not sure I can justify another keyboard.
Yeah, the bowl shape is absolutely the missing piece on my Moonlander. It is otherwise perfect in nearly every other way, and the flexibility from QMK is unmatched. But I don't know how you can reconcile it with its low profile; the Moonlander looks a lot nicer to throw in my bag than the 360 when you pull the wings in...
I agree; I can't justify yet another keyboard. But there's the continuous itch to go ham and design my own split contour keyboard with QMK...
(For anyone reading this, you literally can't go wrong with either of these keyboards and they'll last 10+ years, so get one if you can.)
ok, could you expand on your experiences with both? i’m a longtime kinesis user (like, LONG time—i got rid of one with an AT connector a few years ago) and i’ve been really toying with the idea of switching. what are the pros and cons you’ve experienced?
I have one, but it's in a drawer now because I was finding it too difficult to switch between it and a normal laptop keyboard. I want a split keyboard that has all the keys in the same places, so muscle memory doesn't need to adapt. I touch type, so the same fingers just need to find the same keys in the same relative positions. Mainlander does not do that, and I can't find the layout or top view zoomable photos for this one :-/
I switched to Microsoft Sculpt for this reason. Muscle memory is fully compatible with a laptop keyboard. Except it’s much more comfortable, due to the tilt, width and superb tactile feeling for such low-travel keys. Totally took away all my wrist pains.
As a bonus it doesn’t look like a science-lab on your desk, like a lot of other ergonomic keyboards do. Got to say this new Advantage 360 has a really nice look though.
IMO moonlander, ergodox, etc .. all just shitty Advantages. The only thing that comes close in the DIY/Enthusiast community is the Dactyl. Nothing beats the contour.
I'd say that it is more their response to the Dactyl[1] and the Dactyl Manuform[2] which is similar to Kinesis but split.
Those started as open source DIY keyboards, and originally you had to 3D-print, hand-wire, solder and program yourself, but ready-made ones are available now.
I was pretty hot on getting the Moonlander when it first came out, but I really wanted unlabeled keys. They now offer that, but I'm having a hard time committing to spending the money when I'm so happy with my ErgoDox Ez.
Anyone made that switch that can compare/contrast?
I've had both. I find that the moonlander is a LOT smaller, and feels a bit better because the wrist-rests are integrated (that was probably my biggest annoyance with the EZ). I was able to sell my EZ for about 250, so the moonlander realistically cost me about 150. The moonlander is about 25% better than the EZ (note: there are a few keys missing) and overall I'm happy with my upgrade
I have no experience with the ErgoDox, and loved the Moonlander when I first received it. Over time I've grown to dislike the thumb clusters, they're too far away when tented, making only the inner thumb button easily reachable.
(I'm still using it every day for work, but want to try something else soon, probably a Kyria).
I've used both the Ergodox and Moonlander. In general, I think both keyboards have poor thumb clusters. The Moonlander has the big red buttons that you can't press while keeping your hands in normal typing position. The Ergodox has the 4 1U keys that are also hard to press.
The Ergodox has 1.5U keys between the hands (like to the right of T,G,B, and to the left of Y,H,N), while the moonlander just has 1U keys next to T,G and Y,H. I found the 1.5U keys much easier to press than the 1U keys. (Try typing "RGB" on a QWERTY keyboard; it's really not that easy to make your pointer finger responsible for 12 equally-sized keys.) As a result, I moved backspace from the 1.5U key next to H,N to a thumb key. The thumb isn't as fast for rapid motions as the pointer finger is, so I notice backspace being a little more cumbersome than necessary. But, I don't really think about it anymore, so it's not a big deal. (I do see my usage of the 1U keys falling off, though. I used have _- and =+ on them, and I find myself going for shift-= instead of the dedicated + key. I think that's because my Ergodox didn't have a + key, that was backspace, and I never learned it.)
Both the Ergodox EZ and Moonlander have godawful tenting. But the Moonlander lets you fix it because it has an array of threaded inserts on the back that you can screw a proper tent to. I use this thing https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4769961 and love it.
Generally the Moonlander is quite appealing. I use it every day and it's great. (I did replace the switches with Zilents. I always use weird switches on my keyboards.) But I'm looking at the Advantage 360 and think they've done a really job, so it's definitely a third option to consider.
Finally, I've experimented with other designs. I made a 107 key keyboard (I call it the Ergorocks 107) that is Ergodox-like, but has 3 1U switches for the thumb clusters, a number pad in the middle, and F keys above the number keys. I fucked up the angle of the thumb keys, and found the numpad in the middle hard to use. I made it take a standard keyset, though, so you don't have to hunt for "Ergo" keysets. You can use any normal keyset! If this is interesting to anyone, I might make a second iteration with the bugs fixed. (It's entirely 3D printed. Don't let people tell you 3D printed keyboards are bad, they're great. PLA is honestly a great keyboard material; very rigid and pretty quiet.)
I also have both and prefer the Moonlander. I like the adjustable thumb keys, integrated wrist supports, and smaller size compared to the Ez. That said, the Ez is a GREAT keyboard.
Yep, love my Moonlander - it has really helped with my wrist issues. The only trouble I have is when I have to switch to a standard keyboard (e.g., on a laptop).
I have the Ergodox EZ, so similar to the Moonlander. It took me about a full workweek to use it without looking at the keyboard, and another week to type at a competent speed. That said, after three years of ownership, I still can't type as fast as I can on my MacBook's keyboard (last I checked: 65wpm with the Ergodox, 109wpm with the MacBook).
Moonlander user here -- sort of, but not really. One of the reasons I bought it was the non-staggered keys, and I'd say it met my expectations. All the keys off the home row just seem a little closer.
I had been using the Kinesis Advantage 2 and for me there was almost no adjustment time. It did take me quite a while (two weeks) to get used to the Kinesis.
I have been using the Kinesys Advantage (and the LF version with Cherry MX Reds instead of Browns) for many many years. I love it but have always wanted a split version because my shoulders are too wide and I have to pull my arms in to type (like every other non-split keyboard out there).
I spent a long time looking at building a custom 3d-printed keyboard of my own but trying to find just the right keycaps (they are not all the same size) that would work with the scooped layout was tough.
I can't find it right now but there was at least one person who cut their Advantage in half and wired each side together with a long cable. It was cool that it worked, but it looked janky as hell and seemed like a good way to accidentally break a $350 keyboard.
Sadly, no dedicated F-row. I would even settle for a subset of keys that aligned with the columns. I do not consider layers an adequate replacement.
Happy to see they are moving away from their own software configuration. Not a fan of the software interface on the Freestyle Pro. More than once I have gotten myself into a loop where I am unsure which function mode is activated and how to switch back to what I want.
I am still likely to get this once it is out, but still not the "end game" keyboard of my dreams.
For what it's worth I really hate the dinky little F keys on my Kinesis Advantage 2, they're hard to hit, awkwardly positioned and feel gross. F8 and F9 are entirely impossible to hit without moving your entire hand.
I consider this an upgrade. I personally think layer beats any keys I can't hit without taking my hands off home row.
That said my other main daily driver is an HHKB so I'm pretty used to switching layer for F keys.
Personally I would not get a smaller (fewer keys) keyboard if that meant giving up keys like the F1 to F12 keys. I’m fine with having that home row option via layers and Vim and whatnot, but not having normal keys is just a downgrade in my opinion. Some applications want to use funky key combos, and I don’t want to make contortions in order to use them; the key combos might be uncomfortable enough on a regular keyboard where you don’t have to use some “F” key to access something basic like the arrow keys or “Home”.
On the whole the “home row” insistence seems like a bit of an obsession at times. It’s often nice, comfortable, and efficient, but I refuse to believe that anyone ever got hurt (RSI and all that) by moving their hands to the nav cluster every once in a while. (Or else all those piano players must be in some real trouble.)
I like the tenkeyless formfactor. Then I get a standard keyboard minus the numpad. And I can use a dedicated numpad if I need it.
It's good to reduce keyboard width because we need to put pointing device somewhere near. But reducing height isn't sense for me because vertical space isn't matter at all. I don't strongly need F1-12 keys but prefer to have because nothing is harmed by having dedicated keys.
>Sadly, no dedicated F-row. I would even settle for a subset of keys that aligned with the columns. I do not consider layers an adequate replacement.
Damn, I missed that part. The original Advantage has a set of small rubber F keys along the top which works surprisingly well given the amount that I use them (i.e. rarely).
Looking a bit more, I see that there are an extra set of keys on the "inside" of each half (to the right of G and left of H) - it's plausible that remapping these to key function keys would be enough for most use cases.
I would imagine you can add an F key layer pretty easily so this shouldn't be a big deal. I found it impossible to touch-type the F-row on my Advantage 2, and it's awesome to be able to move keys closer to your fingers.
That being said, I don't see a reason to upgrade. I've ordered replacement key wells so I can install my own switches, and since the Advantage is my desk keyboard I'm not worried about portability.
> I would imagine you can add an F key layer pretty easily so this shouldn't be a big deal
That may be the case, but the issue I have with this is that I need, often enough, to press random F keys while not actively using the keyboard. Like for example refresh HN while eating an apple (F5). It's a pain to have to press multiple keys.
Modifier keycombos are often harder to use than simple keypresses. First of all because it involves two hands (if touch typing) and second of all because you have to coordinate the hands so that you type the combo in the right order (e.g. control before C).
“But the home row.” Right. And that’s sometimes a plus. But (1) moving your hands a bit is often not a big deal (unless you have to go back and forth a lot—then I think it’s a drag), and (2) even if things like using the (F key layer) arrow keys might be comfortable, it might not be comfortable to have to use yet another modifier key in order to use common functions like move-by-word (e.g. Ctrl+Left) or even move-and-mark-by-word (Ctrl+Shift+Left).
It’s not an objective win either way. So you definitely cannot just say that it “isn’t a big deal” as if having to use another layer has no cost associated with it.
If you haven’t, you really should check out the Moonlander that’s referred to elsewhere in this thread. I switched to it from a Kinesis Advantage 2 and couldn’t be happier.
People can swear up and down how intuitive and natural layers are, but I do not care. If there is ever a decision to be made between more and fewer keys, I always want to default to more.
It's a shame they couldn't get hot-swapable switches to work [1]. I have an
ErgoDox with MX Browns which hasn't seen the light of day for a while. If I were to make a large outlay again on a keyboard I'd want to buy with the switches I now know I want or no switches and fit them myself. TBH I could take a soldering iron to my ErgoDox I just haven't had the motivation.
As an aside I've always wondered why the Katana60 [2] didn't have much interest as it seemed like a reasonable regular to full ergo in-between and IMHO more comfortable than something like a Planck. Though whilst I have tried the Plank I've not actually tried the Katana60 IRL. Looking forward to keyboard meetups again the post COVID future.
If you're looking for something small but more ergonomic than a Plank, take a look at the Atreus (either as a DIY or in a kit from Keyboario[1]). I also had issues with the Plank but the slight angle of the keys on the Atreus has been extremely comfortable for me.
Love the small size, but the layout is too different from a "regular" keyboard for me to consider it; the switching costs between it and my laptop would be too high. Placement of shift, super (I use caps lock as super), and tab being the biggest issues.
Yeah I'm pretty familiar with most keyboard offerings. I'm just not keen on the Atreus' lack of a surrounding case/the key caps themselves being the edge. I know it's only an atheistic quibble but I guess I'm fussy like that.
Hot swap switches would be a killer RAS feature for a KB. Throw in redundant power and multipath USB with chipkill ECC in the MCU and it can be the longest uptime device in your data center...
Hot swappable switches is a common (premium) feature in the mech keyboard world. There are many examples, but the ergodox EZ is one that is very similar to TFA, but without the contours.
Readit News
I'd never seen anything that suggested that split keyboards were a good solve for the shoulder pain but I'd reached that point of just throwing shit at a wall because it was that, or find a new career and hobbies. Moving my keyboard so my forearms can sit slightly wider than perpendicular to my chest has almost completely resolved the shoulder pain and the impact was almost immediate.
Unfortunately, the solution came a bit late. The strain on my nerves and blood vessels caused by the thoracic outlet syndrome has damaged my arm nerves. And after the second rib resection, the one on the left side, my plexus brachialis got severely damaged. It took nearly 2 years to partially recover. My left arm gets tired very fast in certain positions, my left thumb is partially numb and sleeping on my left shoulder can be painful.
I can't image how much worse it would be without my Kinesis Advantage keyboard and my Wacom Bamboo tablet. Using another computer or laptop with an normal keyboard, touchpad or mouse, is hell. An iPad Pro with a pencil (and a tablet stand to hold the tablet) is much better.
TOS killed my programming career. It ruined my life and brought me untold mental and physical pain. At one point I couldn't use my arms for more than thirty minutes a day. Even taking a shower was exhausting. I underwent two surgeries, one two remove the ribs and muscles entrapping my nerves. After the first surgery things were good for awhile, my hands were no longer purple (due compression on the vein/artery) and I could actually use a keyboard again. Unfortunately scar tissue grew over my nerves and entrapped them again. At this point I required a second surgery to remove the tissue, which worked quite well and enabled my to use my arms again. Unfortunately, nothing is perfect in life and I still have some tissue that is interfering with my neck and causing chronic pain for which I take a variety of medications for. I currently work a low end job in health care because I can't sit at a desk for 8 hours a day without substantial pain (trust me I've tried everything, at this point I could open an ergonomic store).
I just want to give a shout out to a fellow TOS victim, especially one in the tech world. It's a very rare condition and it's very damaging (imaging not being able to touch your phone without pain) and I wish there was more awareness.
For a start, it stops the need for hunching shoulders as the halves can be placed to fit shoulder width.
This is for another split contoured keyboard, but it would help explain https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/rc2pxj/t...
1) Stretching my fingers. Yup. You gotta stretch a) curl motion of each finger, across the top of your hand, b) uncurling motion of each finger, through your palm, c) uncurling the thumb-pinky (touch your pinky to your thumb.. that's what you do when you hold the mouse... do the opposite as a stretch)
2) A good PT who can actually debug my body. I tried 5+ massage/osteo/PT professionals before finding her based on recommendation. Most were completely bad. One was decent but didn't fix the whole problem. Finally I found someone who could fix the problems.
I also got a Kinesis Advantage 2, but honestly with the 2 above tips I'm not sure you need it.
I missed the pre-order, but I grabbed a Logitech ergo kb from the local Microcenter a few days ago and already the changes have been substantial! Of course I am also focusing consciously on the breath, using my diaphragm not my stomach or clavicles. Thanks again! I never considered it until I read your comment.
While typing it keeps my arms on the chair's armrests with my hands just extending forward, and the current armrest height keeps my wrists an inch or so above the desk so I don't need to worry about tracking down wrist pads or such.
I added a Bluetooth keyboard converter, LiPo, and charge controller inside the case.
Unfortunately the Sparkfun documentation for the charge controller implied that it would prevent undervolting which wasn't true, and the battery died. They fixed the documentation but wouldn't send me a replacement battery. I didn't have the money for a new one at the time and reverted it.
General observations:
1. Overall I prefer the Advantage over the Ergodox. The big reason is the contoured design and the fact that the Ergodox tends to walk around unless you have a solid desk pad underneath it. Also, the Ergodox never felt as comfortable as the Advantage. Yes the Advantage is not as easy to travel with but still.... 2. I like the new design, but there are a few things that would have made the pro perfect. PBT backlit keycaps like they offer on the Ergodox-EZ and RGB backlighting...and maybe a set of f-keys (on the fence with the last one).
One other thing... A mix of o-rings and QMX clips made a huge difference with the feel of the keyboard for me. I have been a cherry brown user from the beginning though and different people have different preferences with that.
Kinesis is also really good about providing parts and service. I've had them send me replacement switches and have seen them offer up in-expensive replacement boards to repair and keep older models going.
I'm going to buy one of these, but given that I already have 4 high quality mechanical keyboards and I have yet to have one die I am starting to feel guilty having all of these laying around. That said there is a side of me that is curious about the Keyboard.io :)
I really want to try it again, but nervous if I’ll be unlucky with the same issues.
The Kinesis Advantage 2 fits a Magic Trackpad perfectly right in the middle of the keyboard. This lets you perform mouse actions with you right and left hands.
Emacs keybindings never made sense to me till I tried them with the Kinesis. I feel like Emacs sucks on a standard Mac keyboard and is awesome with a Kinesis. See here for a blog post on the topic if you're interested in learning more: https://mungingdata.com/emacs/learning-emacs-keybindings-aft...
It takes a while to get used to the keyboard layout, but only takes a week to get fully productive. You're eventually able to train your brain to operate fluently on Kinesis & Macbook key layouts without any extra thinking. It's a great investment if you're willing to put in a bit of effort.
What I really want is an ergo keyboard with Macbook/laptop style low-travel keys.
I’ve more or less stopped using a mouse and rely on keyboard shortcuts, when those fail I have the trackpad within striking distance.
Split hands though? Bluetooth? This is an instant-buy for me.
That said, I'm not sure I can justify another keyboard.
I agree; I can't justify yet another keyboard. But there's the continuous itch to go ham and design my own split contour keyboard with QMK...
(For anyone reading this, you literally can't go wrong with either of these keyboards and they'll last 10+ years, so get one if you can.)
As a bonus it doesn’t look like a science-lab on your desk, like a lot of other ergonomic keyboards do. Got to say this new Advantage 360 has a really nice look though.
I want that but curved a bit and tented, without a change in layout.
1. <http://xahlee.info/kbd/dactyl_keyboard.html>
2. <https://ohkeycaps.com/products/built-to-order-dactyl-manufor...>
Anyone made that switch that can compare/contrast?
(I'm still using it every day for work, but want to try something else soon, probably a Kyria).
The Ergodox has 1.5U keys between the hands (like to the right of T,G,B, and to the left of Y,H,N), while the moonlander just has 1U keys next to T,G and Y,H. I found the 1.5U keys much easier to press than the 1U keys. (Try typing "RGB" on a QWERTY keyboard; it's really not that easy to make your pointer finger responsible for 12 equally-sized keys.) As a result, I moved backspace from the 1.5U key next to H,N to a thumb key. The thumb isn't as fast for rapid motions as the pointer finger is, so I notice backspace being a little more cumbersome than necessary. But, I don't really think about it anymore, so it's not a big deal. (I do see my usage of the 1U keys falling off, though. I used have _- and =+ on them, and I find myself going for shift-= instead of the dedicated + key. I think that's because my Ergodox didn't have a + key, that was backspace, and I never learned it.)
Both the Ergodox EZ and Moonlander have godawful tenting. But the Moonlander lets you fix it because it has an array of threaded inserts on the back that you can screw a proper tent to. I use this thing https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4769961 and love it.
Generally the Moonlander is quite appealing. I use it every day and it's great. (I did replace the switches with Zilents. I always use weird switches on my keyboards.) But I'm looking at the Advantage 360 and think they've done a really job, so it's definitely a third option to consider.
Finally, I've experimented with other designs. I made a 107 key keyboard (I call it the Ergorocks 107) that is Ergodox-like, but has 3 1U switches for the thumb clusters, a number pad in the middle, and F keys above the number keys. I fucked up the angle of the thumb keys, and found the numpad in the middle hard to use. I made it take a standard keyset, though, so you don't have to hunt for "Ergo" keysets. You can use any normal keyset! If this is interesting to anyone, I might make a second iteration with the bugs fixed. (It's entirely 3D printed. Don't let people tell you 3D printed keyboards are bad, they're great. PLA is honestly a great keyboard material; very rigid and pretty quiet.)
Still worth it though
Still totally worth it.
e: also switches are hotswappable on the Moonlander, they are fixed (soldered)on the Ergodox iirc.
e2: They are hotswappable on the EZ :)
I have been using the Kinesys Advantage (and the LF version with Cherry MX Reds instead of Browns) for many many years. I love it but have always wanted a split version because my shoulders are too wide and I have to pull my arms in to type (like every other non-split keyboard out there).
I spent a long time looking at building a custom 3d-printed keyboard of my own but trying to find just the right keycaps (they are not all the same size) that would work with the scooped layout was tough.
I can't find it right now but there was at least one person who cut their Advantage in half and wired each side together with a long cable. It was cool that it worked, but it looked janky as hell and seemed like a good way to accidentally break a $350 keyboard.
I'm so glad this is a thing!
Happy to see they are moving away from their own software configuration. Not a fan of the software interface on the Freestyle Pro. More than once I have gotten myself into a loop where I am unsure which function mode is activated and how to switch back to what I want.
I am still likely to get this once it is out, but still not the "end game" keyboard of my dreams.
I consider this an upgrade. I personally think layer beats any keys I can't hit without taking my hands off home row.
That said my other main daily driver is an HHKB so I'm pretty used to switching layer for F keys.
On the whole the “home row” insistence seems like a bit of an obsession at times. It’s often nice, comfortable, and efficient, but I refuse to believe that anyone ever got hurt (RSI and all that) by moving their hands to the nav cluster every once in a while. (Or else all those piano players must be in some real trouble.)
I like the tenkeyless formfactor. Then I get a standard keyboard minus the numpad. And I can use a dedicated numpad if I need it.
Function keys are on the number row with a Fn modifier (Fn+1 for F1).
You get used to it in about half an hour. It becomes second nature in less than a week.
It makes the keyboard much more compact, which is definitely a plus. Less hand movement, less deskspace consumed, lighter.
It seems like I should go stock some of the old version in case they decide to discontinue it and only offer non-Fn version later.
Damn, I missed that part. The original Advantage has a set of small rubber F keys along the top which works surprisingly well given the amount that I use them (i.e. rarely).
Looking a bit more, I see that there are an extra set of keys on the "inside" of each half (to the right of G and left of H) - it's plausible that remapping these to key function keys would be enough for most use cases.
That being said, I don't see a reason to upgrade. I've ordered replacement key wells so I can install my own switches, and since the Advantage is my desk keyboard I'm not worried about portability.
That may be the case, but the issue I have with this is that I need, often enough, to press random F keys while not actively using the keyboard. Like for example refresh HN while eating an apple (F5). It's a pain to have to press multiple keys.
“But the home row.” Right. And that’s sometimes a plus. But (1) moving your hands a bit is often not a big deal (unless you have to go back and forth a lot—then I think it’s a drag), and (2) even if things like using the (F key layer) arrow keys might be comfortable, it might not be comfortable to have to use yet another modifier key in order to use common functions like move-by-word (e.g. Ctrl+Left) or even move-and-mark-by-word (Ctrl+Shift+Left).
It’s not an objective win either way. So you definitely cannot just say that it “isn’t a big deal” as if having to use another layer has no cost associated with it.
e.g: LayerX + cmd + shift + 9 to rebuild a file. There are much worse offenders I am sure.
> Function Keys reside in new “Fn” Layer
> 10-Key resides in the traditional “Keypad” Layer
People can swear up and down how intuitive and natural layers are, but I do not care. If there is ever a decision to be made between more and fewer keys, I always want to default to more.
As an aside I've always wondered why the Katana60 [2] didn't have much interest as it seemed like a reasonable regular to full ergo in-between and IMHO more comfortable than something like a Planck. Though whilst I have tried the Plank I've not actually tried the Katana60 IRL. Looking forward to keyboard meetups again the post COVID future.
[1] https://twitter.com/kinesisergo/status/1470446358372896772
[2] http://xahlee.info/kbd/katana60_keyboard.html
[1] https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus