This is incredible, I love it. I've recently switched to using Ableton exclusively for making music, it feels like more of an instrument than a computer program to me. It's so expressive and lets me make the sounds I want to hear as well as things I can't even conceive of. I can't really articulate what it is about Ableton, but I really love it and I'm so thankful that it's around.
I recommend starting with p5.js. If you need synchronized tracks, add Tone.js to the mix. The Ableton website also uses Tone.js.
https://tonejs.github.io/
I got into programming as a kid through a desire to make music (my first program was a "song" written in pascal, playing a series beep tones at different frequencies and durations.) I got into trackers (fast, impulse, buzz) in my teens, and then synths.
These days I have a strong preference towards "hardware"* only music making -- I spend most of my waking life staring at a screen, so I find it satisfying to step away and be hands on when creating music. The brains of my studio is a Synthstrom Deluge, which is an amazingly intuitive little gizmo - it has a built in synth and drum machine, a looper, a sampler, and a MIDI sequencer allowing you to drive all other synths in the studio. I also have an Arturia Keystep, which has a great live MIDI sequencer. Another fun gadget is the Roland RC 505, which gives you 5 independent and dubbable loops - I drive one of the two fx sends from my mixer through it, letting me build loops live from any of the other synths. Aside from those I've collected a handful of synths, both FM and analog.
(* quotes because pretty much all available synths, analog included, run on software. Most come with USB ports allowing you to connect and change settings, update firmware, etc.)
I'm getting back into making electronic music now and I've agonized over where to go the software/computer/DAW route or hardware/groovebox/sequencer. Right now, I'm doing it all on a computer using Reason and a very nice MIDI controller (Arturia KeyLab 61 mkii <3 <3 <3). But I follow the r/synthesizers subreddit and all of the pretty blinky lights and buttons look so fun and the sounds can be amazing.
The main things I like about doing it all on a computer are:
* Great screen and interface. It's easy to drag and drop and see the composition visually. Boxes like the Digitakt look like a lot of fun, but then I watch a youTube video of it and it's like 80% knob-scrolling through menus on a tiny LCD screen and that doesn't look like fun.
* Easy file and data management. It's all just files on a hard drive. It's trivial to switch between projects, back up, restore state, etc. Managing that when the data lives on flash cards across a handful of sequencers seems really stressful to me. I'd be so worried about accidentally losing a patch or something.
* It's cheaper. If I want two separate delays with different settings, I can just add a second delay. I don't have to go on Sweetwater and drop another $200. Sure, Eurorack stuff is "modular", but each module requires shelling out cash. In Reason, I can wire up huge racks of crazy stuff without spending a dime.
But..., man, the hardware stuff looks like a lot of fun. I also feel like it can be a real struggle to get something that sounds rich and full out of Reason. I can get there, but it takes effort. It's default sound tends to be kind of brittle and dry, which is to be expected from software but can be uninspiring. (I should maybe check out a different DAW, but I know Reason well and exploring different software is a whole other can of worms.) With a lot of hardware gear — at least judging by videos online — you power it up and it sounds fat immediately.
I think what really matters the most to me is finding a path that gets me finishing music I like quickly. I don't want to just noodle, but I also want something fun and immediate enough to stay in the moment. I'm still not sure if software or hardware (or a mixture of both?) is the right path for that.
Any thoughts on how to dip my toes in the water with hardware to see if that's a better fit?
>Any thoughts on how to dip my toes in the water with hardware to see if that's a better fit?
How much money is "dip my toes"? If you're talking less than a hundred bucks for some cool toys, you can buy Korg Volca and one of PO-x0 series from Teenage Engineering.
If you're thinking $500+ you can get something like Alesis Micron (designed by Bret Victor, BTW) or Korg Electribe, or Elektron Model:Sample. If you're fine with real-time recording, you can instead get something like Behringer Neutron or Kors Minilogue. You can make entire tracks on those even if all you have is a linear recorder.
If you're in ~$1000+ range you can buy Analog Four or OP-1. The former is a very practical machine, the latter is a marvel of design, very fun and great for experiments.
Or you could go for a workstation. FA-06 has pretty good UX, although it's closer to DAW-on-a-keyboard than other things I mentioned here.
Find a device you like and learn it inside out. It's a very rewarding experience. Also, try to buy a used device. You can save tons of money this way.
> Boxes like the Digitakt look like a lot of fun, but then I watch a youTube video of it and it's like 80% knob-scrolling through menus on a tiny LCD screen and that doesn't look like fun.
Totally with you there. Menu diving on a 20x2 char display is no fun at all.
> Any thoughts on how to dip my toes in the water with hardware to see if that's a better fit?
Here are some sequencers you could look at (that I've personally owned)
Zaquencer - $200. The most sequencer you can get at that price point. But lots of knob turning, no real displays. Its fun though.
Toraiz Squid - $600. But it has some great features, and its very 'playable'. You can also drag and drop all of your midi from the device into the DAW.
I would suggest starting with purchasing a MIDI interface and a sequencer. Just use them to control software instruments in your DAW.
This is my workflow. Make a bunch of patterns in a sequencer. Record audio or MIDI into the DAW. Arrange the patterns. You get you brainstorming done on the hardware but the editing on the software.
I'm in the same boat. However, I love the flexibility of a DAW. My "hybrid" solution is the Ableton Push (small LCD screen, but not a monitor) and Komplete Kontrol S88 keyboard. Still get my soft synths, but I can do a ton without even looking at my monitor. I have both facing my window rather than my screen, and it's surprisingly easy to get in the flow.
Same here.. I went all in on NI, Maschine Mk3, Jam, S49 Mk2 and Komplete Ultimate. It feels like the best of both worlds. Step sequencing and arranging on the Jam is so nice.
My story is similar to yours. I've just recently gone from 100% hardware to a more hybrid setup. I found that while I was having more fun with the hardware setup I wasn't finishing songs. Personally, I still need a computer to do editing and arranging. My new setup is a small eurorack skiff, Bitwig 3 and NI Maschine Mk3/Jam/S49 Mk2 w/ Komplete Ultimate. The integration between NI hardware and Maschine/Komplete Kontrol is amazing, feels like the best of both worlds. I'm definitely considering the Push 2 for Bitwig, although the Maschine Jam does a pretty good job as Bitwig controller.
I'd recommend you check out the Tennage Engineering OP-Z. It's a neat little thing that can do a bunch of the stuff you mentioned, but in a crazy small form factor.
Precisely why I prefer using elektron machines. As awesome as ableton and NI's Maschine is I wanted to get as far away from a screen, a desk, OS updates, driver issues and all the junk you deal with as a developer day to day with software.
Its great, when I flip on the little machines I know is music making time and I wont have to deal with any hurdles.
Ableton is great and paved the way for a more creative and intuitive workflow! I switched from Cubase very early on and never looked back. That is, until I found Bitwig (https://www.bitwig.com) which supports Linux! They also deserve a shout out taking it even further!
Ableton is a different ballgame if you have the Push interface. Other than that Reaper needs a mention, it is the best DAW[1] in terms of functionality and power. Truly for power-users and not necessarily as a musical idea starter.
> Ableton is a different ballgame if you have the Push interface.
Bitwig, started by former developers of Ableton, supports Ableton Push and many other MIDI controllers[1], and is probably the most advanced DAW for electronic music production currently available.
It's not as popular as Ableton, because it's much newer and most people rarely switch DAWs they are used to.
> Other than that Reaper needs a mention, it is the best DAW[1] in terms of functionality and power.
That's true, Reaper might be the best DAW for any non-electronic music oriented workflows. But this separation is essential: they were designed with different primary use cases in mind.
I wish Reaper supported Linux natively (without Wine).
Recently I switched to Ardour for recording guitars on Linux - it has great VST support, allows syncing music with videos, and has automation built-in. Even Amplitube works through LinVst.
I was also blown away by their pricing - you can pay as little as $1 for the full version, which is what I did, but after seeing how well it works, I did a donation to match the recommended price of $45.
As far as I remember Ardour is GPL software, and on their website[0] I cannot find neither some kind of licensing price or any donation link. Is there some other commercial version of Ardour?
I've been through them all, started on Audition, then to Cubase, then to Pro Tools and finally settled on Ableton. There's just nothing like Ableton for composing, especially with the right hardware (controller or push). It allows you to get completely lost in a way no other DAW I've used can match. Although I do now use Pro Tools for mixing since I find it to be far superior in that area.
I just purchased Bitwig after evaluating all the big ones, and the decision fell on Bitwig because it just felt like a "better" Ableton. I think the Bitwig team is actually former Ableton developers that just felt they could make a better DAW if they started from scratch. They could.
It's just hundreds of little paper cuts in the other big ones, that are fixed in Bitwig. If something is clunky and unintuitive in Ableton, it's most likely better in Bitwig. And there aren't just a few things that are clunky and unintuitive in Ableton.
I also use Bitwig (And Tracktion's Waveform 10) They both work on Linux and are great.
Bitwig works on a subscription program for updates. You want the latest you buy a subscription and it lasts for a year. After the subscription is over you get to use whatever version you are on for life, but no updates.
I am perfectly happy with the built-in stuff however. Because of bitwigs extremely strong modulation engine the standard effects are probably the most powerful and expressive ones out there.
I got bitwig because I am a heavy linux user and wanted to start making music.
The software itself works well, it's really great, but with VSTs it's quite tricky. I got a couple to work that explicitly support linux, but for example Serum I couldn't get to work properly.
Recently I decided that it's not work all the hassle, and setup a windows computer again. I want as little friction as possible, because the process of making electronic music is already hard enough by itself.
As others have mentioned, linux does support VST plugins, as do a number of linux DAWs. But it's worth mentioning that the ecosystem is rather thin at the moment in terms of native VSTs. One solution is to install Windows-based VSTs in a Wine installation and then use linvst, a wrapper which presents those Windows-based VST dlls to a linux host and runs them with Wine.
I found it a pain to set up in the first place, and it's hit-and-miss which plugins work in it, but once up and running it actually works smoothly enough, in my experience. (Larger, more complicated VSTs seem correspondingly less likely to work. Of ones that don't immediately work, some can be massaged into working with some tweaking of your wine setup. There's a webpage somewhere with a list of what plugins are known to work and what you need to do to get them to work.)
There are other ways of running windows-based VSTs, but that's the one I'm familiar with.
As a person developing VSTs, BitWig is supports them THE BEST. BitWig handles VSTs better than almost any other host, including (optional, but you should do it!) sandboxing and proper HiDPI support.
You can absolutely make VSTs for Linux, but I imagine that very few people do.
I don't remember how well it integrated with Bitwig - but a few years ago VST support on Linux using Wine, Jack and Carla (https://github.com/falkTX/Carla) was pretty solid.
379€ - wow, that's an absurd amount of money for personal software. Include that with every tutorial being priced too and having to buy synths and samples etc this turns into one expensive hobbie.
Its expensive because its good and the amount of engineering to make sure this doesn't drop a single sample in live performance costs time, expertise and cash.
There are some amazing free VSTs out there. Also, 379€ is about the price you'd pay for a mid-level guitar. So if you're considering Ableton or Bitwig Studio your "instrument" it's reasonable.
(obviously, this analogy breaks under pressure; software still lacks the concrete permanence of a physical instrument)
If you want to see the power of modular synths, I definitely recommend checking out some modular streamers on Twitch. Some use VCV, some use actual racks, but there's a growing community on there.
As a dev, I find Ableton incredibly frustrating. The Live Object Model (LOM) allows custom automation and software control. But it's half-closed, and half-open.
Access is through Max for Live, which is a dataflow language "programmed" by joining little object blocks to other object blocks - like Scratch. There's unofficial Python support, but it's poorly documented.
Many things are possible, but many other things aren't possible - even though they're available on Push, so obviously the hooks are there.
It would make me unbelievably happy if Ableton opened up the LOM and included a properly documented hook for absolutely every important feature - preferably one that could be used from any language, maybe via OSC, rather than M4L.
To be fair Live at least has a LOM, while other sequencers/DAWs don't. So that's a plus. But it's still a shame it isn't more complete - because that would make all kinds of cool things possible.
If you use OSC you could be interested in the DAW I develop: https://ossia.io ; a part of its object model is accessible through it, hadn't had the time to expose everything yet.
This is great!, I thought they were only gonna do a simple piano roll and start/stop, they touch on pretty good topics including song structure, chords, modes, scales, diatonic triads, voicing, etc. This is a pretty good intro to getting into Ableton Live really. I come from using Cubase and honestly the new Live is very capable for building fluid songs, it has so many features now and the interface makes it really easy to draw automation curves, set different timings, route midi, build drum kits, etc.
I really tried to get into Ableton. I found a Push 2 at a pawn shop and while I can say that the push 2 controller is pretty damn amazing and turns Ableton into a pretty cool device, I can't get the arrangement to feel natural to me. I am a long term linear sequencer user, and Logic is pretty much muscle memory to me now. However, Ive used FL studio since version 1.x and that also feels much easier to use than Ableton. I can create patterns super easily on Ableton but then turning that into a song is just clunky to me.
I came from CUBASE and it took me a couple attempts to get used to ableton
Frankly thinking of it as a sequencer is a limiting mental model.
Think of it as a instrument to jam with.
When I used cubase I spend about 20% of the time with jamming together a basic idea and then 80% with arranging.
Ableton flipped that for me...now I spend 80% of the time jamming (and loving it) and only all the way at the end I quickly create the arrangement once I am already super familiar with all the parts I created during jamming.
It’s had a really super positive on my creative quality!
Ive heard this from quite a few folks. I dont do a lot of ITB recording though, so that may be my problem. I mainly use my 2 SPs (SP-1200/Sp-16) for the jamming part along with keys/guitar/bass. By the time I fire up software the idea is already there, and I want to arrange it.
No- It seemed that when I would try to use arrangement view to string sessions together, they seemed disconnected from the session I was just editing. I basically just end up using Push to sample chop and then move what I find to other software or hardware.
I use both Logic and Ableton. What about the arrangement is so difficult for you!? my complaints about Ableton are much more editing-centric. I also greatly miss take folders when I work in Ableton, and I prefer mixing with busses to grouping tracks in Ableton.
In the same boat.. I used trackers, then FL Studio, Cubase for a while, then Logic for years and I've always found Ableton Live really hard to get into.
I love seeing how the big brands are picking up web audio. I refuse to work on anything else these days, and it's easier than I thought when I started. Built 5 web games using tone.js for Red Bull Mind Gamers last year and just launched a site that auto generates unlimited royalty free mp3s using web audio for a dollar[1].
[1] https://strikefreemusic.com
Readit News
If anyone wants more, Ableton also has a synthesizer playground site at https://learningsynths.ableton.com/.
edit: I don't get the donwvotes on my comment of not getting other peoples downvotes :) Ok, I guess I asked for it :)
I wanted to learn but I do not know where to start. Just asking out of curiosity. Thanks
These days I have a strong preference towards "hardware"* only music making -- I spend most of my waking life staring at a screen, so I find it satisfying to step away and be hands on when creating music. The brains of my studio is a Synthstrom Deluge, which is an amazingly intuitive little gizmo - it has a built in synth and drum machine, a looper, a sampler, and a MIDI sequencer allowing you to drive all other synths in the studio. I also have an Arturia Keystep, which has a great live MIDI sequencer. Another fun gadget is the Roland RC 505, which gives you 5 independent and dubbable loops - I drive one of the two fx sends from my mixer through it, letting me build loops live from any of the other synths. Aside from those I've collected a handful of synths, both FM and analog.
(* quotes because pretty much all available synths, analog included, run on software. Most come with USB ports allowing you to connect and change settings, update firmware, etc.)
The main things I like about doing it all on a computer are:
* Great screen and interface. It's easy to drag and drop and see the composition visually. Boxes like the Digitakt look like a lot of fun, but then I watch a youTube video of it and it's like 80% knob-scrolling through menus on a tiny LCD screen and that doesn't look like fun.
* Easy file and data management. It's all just files on a hard drive. It's trivial to switch between projects, back up, restore state, etc. Managing that when the data lives on flash cards across a handful of sequencers seems really stressful to me. I'd be so worried about accidentally losing a patch or something.
* It's cheaper. If I want two separate delays with different settings, I can just add a second delay. I don't have to go on Sweetwater and drop another $200. Sure, Eurorack stuff is "modular", but each module requires shelling out cash. In Reason, I can wire up huge racks of crazy stuff without spending a dime.
But..., man, the hardware stuff looks like a lot of fun. I also feel like it can be a real struggle to get something that sounds rich and full out of Reason. I can get there, but it takes effort. It's default sound tends to be kind of brittle and dry, which is to be expected from software but can be uninspiring. (I should maybe check out a different DAW, but I know Reason well and exploring different software is a whole other can of worms.) With a lot of hardware gear — at least judging by videos online — you power it up and it sounds fat immediately.
I think what really matters the most to me is finding a path that gets me finishing music I like quickly. I don't want to just noodle, but I also want something fun and immediate enough to stay in the moment. I'm still not sure if software or hardware (or a mixture of both?) is the right path for that.
Any thoughts on how to dip my toes in the water with hardware to see if that's a better fit?
How much money is "dip my toes"? If you're talking less than a hundred bucks for some cool toys, you can buy Korg Volca and one of PO-x0 series from Teenage Engineering.
If you're thinking $500+ you can get something like Alesis Micron (designed by Bret Victor, BTW) or Korg Electribe, or Elektron Model:Sample. If you're fine with real-time recording, you can instead get something like Behringer Neutron or Kors Minilogue. You can make entire tracks on those even if all you have is a linear recorder.
If you're in ~$1000+ range you can buy Analog Four or OP-1. The former is a very practical machine, the latter is a marvel of design, very fun and great for experiments.
Or you could go for a workstation. FA-06 has pretty good UX, although it's closer to DAW-on-a-keyboard than other things I mentioned here.
Find a device you like and learn it inside out. It's a very rewarding experience. Also, try to buy a used device. You can save tons of money this way.
Totally with you there. Menu diving on a 20x2 char display is no fun at all.
> Any thoughts on how to dip my toes in the water with hardware to see if that's a better fit?
It wouldn't get you a full setup, but a keystep + a behringer neutron wouldn't break the bank, and looks like a lot of fun. (I don't have a neutron. Maybe on my list once I sell a couple pieces of equipment that I don't use.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfD8RmALHwQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJTl_ntNTgo
I find that the device that gives me finished tracks with highest probability is OP-1.
Zaquencer - $200. The most sequencer you can get at that price point. But lots of knob turning, no real displays. Its fun though.
Toraiz Squid - $600. But it has some great features, and its very 'playable'. You can also drag and drop all of your midi from the device into the DAW.
I would suggest starting with purchasing a MIDI interface and a sequencer. Just use them to control software instruments in your DAW.
This is my workflow. Make a bunch of patterns in a sequencer. Record audio or MIDI into the DAW. Arrange the patterns. You get you brainstorming done on the hardware but the editing on the software.
Its great, when I flip on the little machines I know is music making time and I wont have to deal with any hurdles.
[1] http://reaper.fm/
Bitwig, started by former developers of Ableton, supports Ableton Push and many other MIDI controllers[1], and is probably the most advanced DAW for electronic music production currently available.
It's not as popular as Ableton, because it's much newer and most people rarely switch DAWs they are used to.
> Other than that Reaper needs a mention, it is the best DAW[1] in terms of functionality and power.
That's true, Reaper might be the best DAW for any non-electronic music oriented workflows. But this separation is essential: they were designed with different primary use cases in mind.
I wish Reaper supported Linux natively (without Wine).
[1] http://www.mossgrabers.de/Software/Bitwig/Bitwig.html
Deleted Comment
Could not agree more. I'm a voice actor, and Reaper is my secret weapon for speed and efficiency in non-music-based audio production. I love it.
I was also blown away by their pricing - you can pay as little as $1 for the full version, which is what I did, but after seeing how well it works, I did a donation to match the recommended price of $45.
[0] https://ardour.org/
Just asking out of curiosity. Thanks
They are suitable for hobbyists to professional level.
I personally am a hobbyist musician and programmer by profession. I'd imagine many others here are like me as well.
I'm a beginner, so don't know much about Ableton or Bitwig.
Bitwig works on a subscription program for updates. You want the latest you buy a subscription and it lasts for a year. After the subscription is over you get to use whatever version you are on for life, but no updates.
1. What would one miss if using Bitwig over others, if anything?
2. Same question as the above for Reaper?
3. How would the two compare with each other.
Note: I have already noted the comments child to yours.
Thanks.
EDIT: sorry, my question was about whether Linux supports VST. I would assume that Bitwig did at v0.1 :-)
Bitwig is quite similar to Ableton in terms of capabilities, I never tried this myself, but there seems to be a way (assuming you want Windows VSTs on Linux) https://answers.bitwig.com/questions/624/vst-windows-on-linu...
I am perfectly happy with the built-in stuff however. Because of bitwigs extremely strong modulation engine the standard effects are probably the most powerful and expressive ones out there.
The software itself works well, it's really great, but with VSTs it's quite tricky. I got a couple to work that explicitly support linux, but for example Serum I couldn't get to work properly.
Recently I decided that it's not work all the hassle, and setup a windows computer again. I want as little friction as possible, because the process of making electronic music is already hard enough by itself.
I found it a pain to set up in the first place, and it's hit-and-miss which plugins work in it, but once up and running it actually works smoothly enough, in my experience. (Larger, more complicated VSTs seem correspondingly less likely to work. Of ones that don't immediately work, some can be massaged into working with some tweaking of your wine setup. There's a webpage somewhere with a list of what plugins are known to work and what you need to do to get them to work.)
There are other ways of running windows-based VSTs, but that's the one I'm familiar with.
You can absolutely make VSTs for Linux, but I imagine that very few people do.
Deleted Comment
Cubase Artist: ~ $340
Reaper: Free/$60/$225
Pro tools: ~ $600
It's priced in the same league as its competitors.
(obviously, this analogy breaks under pressure; software still lacks the concrete permanence of a physical instrument)
NI Komplete 12 Full - $1600
What I mostly love is that through plugins you can find virtual versions of existing hardware modules!
[0]: https://vcvrack.com/
https://www.twitch.tv/dronehands
https://www.twitch.tv/nitewurx
https://www.twitch.tv/earthvomit
https://www.twitch.tv/joobiedoobiedoo
Access is through Max for Live, which is a dataflow language "programmed" by joining little object blocks to other object blocks - like Scratch. There's unofficial Python support, but it's poorly documented.
Many things are possible, but many other things aren't possible - even though they're available on Push, so obviously the hooks are there.
It would make me unbelievably happy if Ableton opened up the LOM and included a properly documented hook for absolutely every important feature - preferably one that could be used from any language, maybe via OSC, rather than M4L.
To be fair Live at least has a LOM, while other sequencers/DAWs don't. So that's a plus. But it's still a shame it isn't more complete - because that would make all kinds of cool things possible.
Dead Comment
Frankly thinking of it as a sequencer is a limiting mental model.
Think of it as a instrument to jam with.
When I used cubase I spend about 20% of the time with jamming together a basic idea and then 80% with arranging.
Ableton flipped that for me...now I spend 80% of the time jamming (and loving it) and only all the way at the end I quickly create the arrangement once I am already super familiar with all the parts I created during jamming.
It’s had a really super positive on my creative quality!