Hi folks. Val and Roger were dear friends, and I am on the ground here, and I'd like to respectfully ask that you refrain from speculation. The press is rushing to print sensational items, and they don't know the actual facts.
I've been talking to the police directly, and nothing is conclusive yet. Nothing has actually been ruled out, nor determined to be the cause. They don't even have full toxicology reports yet, those take days and sometimes weeks.
On a personal note, I can tell you that there were two devices in the house, a small 3D printer, and a small laser cutter, that were used for building models and rigs for scientific research. Val was an immaculate engineer, and conformed to all safety rules in operating these machines. To the best of our knowledge, neither of the machines were operating the night they passed away.
Again, please refrain from fear-mongering and speculation. I know it's natural for engineers to attack unsolved problems, but you are not working with correct or full data. Once more data is available, we will write up a complete and truthful statement to try and provide closure on this issue.
Thank you all for your condolences. If you would like to honor Val and Roger's memory in the future, please stay tuned to announcements on http://fb.me/valandroger. We are hoping to establish an MIT scholarship in their names, and continue work on Roger's unfinished video game.
To answer some of the questions in this thread all at once:
1. The unit was about 900 square feet. Looks like someone calculated roughly that from the publicly available information.
2. The laser cutter itself was a very small device. I don't remember the exact size, but the cutting bed wasn't more than 2 by 2 feet, and likely smaller than that.
3. Most importantly, from what the investigators told us, the laser cutter bed was completely empty and it wasn't running when they found it. The same goes for the 3D printer.
Friends here on the ground have their ideas based on what we know about the apartment, and we have made suggestions to the investigators. We are hoping they do due diligence. While I'd like to tell you more, we are trying to avoid all speculation. We know it's stressful, but please hang in there.
Sorry to hear that you lost two friends. It's such a terrible thing for the hacker/maker community to lose two people that seemed like such talented, intelligent individuals.
Condolences for sure. Do you happen to know the size of their place by chance? CO becomes deadly at about 400 PPM or 0.04%. Doing the calculations I can't for the life of me figure out how a small laser cutter could produce enough CO under any condition to become deadly. Even with the smallest of places, lets say 24x20x7 studio, that's 3,360 cubic feet of air & at 0.0807 pounds per cubic feet of air, that means roughly 271 pounds of air. To become toxic, that would mean the laser cutter would need to output 0.1084 pounds of CO or roughly 1.7 ounces of CO in that area and then not get dissipated through air leaks, opening and closing the exterior door, etc. That seems exceedingly high given a laser is going to cut very little actual material and even getting to the point where it has cut 1.7 ounces of material, let alone produced 1.7 ounces of CO would seem to me to take weeks, months, or years.
Based on public records, appears the building is a fourplex and the total floor space for the building is 3328 square feet; as such, my guess is the their unit was 832 SQFT. Room height based on exterior photos roughly appears to be 8-10 ft.
I knew Roger through a meetup group and a mutual friend. I'm sad that our community has lost such a bright and talented person. He was a big inspiration and will continue to be. I'm glad to hear that people are mobilizing to keep Shard going.
No, not possible. With the added clarification on the apartment size a laser cutter would have had to have output nearly 1/2 pound of CO. My initial 1.7oz calculation was absurd in thinking that amount of CO could be produced and at 1/2 pound, it's not even worth entertaining.
CO poisoning is cumulative. It takes a long time for CO to get unstuck from hemoglobin. (About 2 weeks, IIRC.) It could have snuck up on them slowly, then one evening with the cats "napping" they felt particularly tired and thought to themselves, "We must be in hibernation mode from the chilly weather," then they went to sleep then never woke up.
CO is odorless. You might get a headache, or you might only feel tired. What's worse: a lot of cheap CO detectors are pretty shoddy.
To add to this, here's a really interesting story of someone who thought that his landlord was stalking him, but really he slowly become poisoned by a carbon monoxide leak.
He was leaving himself notes which he later didn't recognize, he thought someone was in the apartment! It was suggestions on reddit tnat made him realize it was CO poisoning.
I recently started getting very interested in air quality in my house. I decided to take a similar approach to air quality that I do with the stock market: lots of small, well distribute bets whenever possible.
For context, our house is 3 levels with a furnace in the basement (cold climate; Canada) I ended up with 3 different brand of CO detectors, 2 different brands of smoke detectors and 1 radon detector.
By far the Radon detector is the most expensive at around $250 CAD, and least critical for the short term (but for the long term concerns, anyone with a below grade section of their home should have one!).
A decent Co + smoke detector (You can often get them in one unit) should cost you no more than $30-40 CAD. Testing a CO detector isn't super easy (not like smoke detectors - just make some well done toast), but I'm trusting that if i have several different kinds well distributed throughout the house at least one of them should save us.
I focused on keeping detectors both near and & inside bedrooms, as well as having a minimum of 1 smoke + CO detector on the other floors in open spaces.
Unrelated to these gasses, I also purchased VOC sensors. These are SUPER interesting. It's amazing how the VOC level rises after a few days, and all it takes is opening a window for a few hours to bring it back to lower levels. We were renovating recently and found that after virtually every contractor the house needed hours of windows open to bring the VOC level back down to something that the sensor considered "good quality" (lower than 450 ppm).
Hope that random rant was interesting to someone :)
After I purchased my new house (USA, Georgia) I put in the detectors. My wife is from China where people are rightfully paranoid about formaldehyde - due to low quality building material. It's basically the same in the USA, except people are a lot less knowledgeable and informed about it. My cabinets, drywall, paint all had high level of formaldehyde. Had to always had the windows open...otherwise it would rise above OSHA approved levels.
In the USA, there's no regulated levels for residence..but there is for office. Funny, isn't it.
Oh jesus. I'm currently renovating 2 bathrooms at once and ceramic dust is coating pretty much everything else not secured. I didn't even know about VOC's until now. I may have to invest in a detector
EDIT: I ended up ordering a Foobot after doing some homework
I'm curious what options are out there that will connect via something like RS232 or USB and let you tie into a centralized logging system (which would be incredibly easy to build). "Windows app with one-click data export" would be nice but isn't quite the same as a realtime feed.
The main question would be whether polite pokings would produce protocol documentation, if this isn't already shoved in a forgotten corner on the website (or something).
I have a fascination with CO poisoning for some reason or at least the chemistry behind it. CO has more than 200 times the affinity for hemoglobin than oxygen does.
You can't just go outside to get fresh air since the CO just won't let go.
I believe the normal way it works is oxygen and carbon dioxide use different sections of hemoglobin molecule so they never interfere with the way each are transported. But CO hogs it all oxygen has no chance of affixing to hemoglobin since there is nowhere to stick.
> But CO hogs it all oxygen has no chance of affixing to hemoglobin since there is nowhere to stick.
CO's action is not purely competitive. Its binding at one binding site influences the three other sites to bind oxygen so strongly that oxygen won't dissociate from the complex where it is needed; In tissues, starving them of oxygen.
If this was indeed a LASER cutter then you would definitely be able to smell all the other gases emitted with the CO. I've got a small LASER cutter and even with the hose going outside the smell very strong.
One post up above says some of the newer cutters targeted at consumers have carbon filters and exhaust the air directly back into the room. The carbon doesn't capture CO but may capture the odors from other compounds.
If it was a progressive build up I really doubt the cats would have died the same day as the two humans. It feels like a sudden occurrence. And like the top comment said: even the CO poisoning is not confirmed yet.
That smells of an easy sensationalist headline there.
Berkeley has been having it's coldest/rainiest weather of the year during the last week. Really heavy rain last weekend. Unlike most of the year where everyone can leave their windows open because the weather is almost always sunny and 70.
They may have had a deadly amount of CO/particulates from their laser cutter in their apt but their ventilation kept them alive. Closing their windows during last week's rain/cold spells could have been deadly. Also there is a possibility of particulate buildup in vents that could have been released if they turned on their heat in an enclosed apartment.
CO leaves you with diminished capability to bind o2, breathing in a small enclosed apt leads to a buildup of CO2. This tragedy could be a combination of CO and CO2 inhalation.
The consumer ones work fine. They've come a LONG way in recent years.
They may not be accurate but they don't need to be at the levels where CO becomes fatal. It is better to have several inexpensive ones than just one or two $300 highly accurate ones. Since you don't know where the CO will be localised.
You can test them yourself fairly inexpensively look for "HOME SAFEGUARD HO-CO2 Carbon Monoxide Detector Tester, Aerosol." Get a Ziploc bag or similar air tight baggy. Place the alarm in a bag, spray the Aerosol in it, and wait. It should go off in 2-5 minutes. Obviously it is best to do this test outside.
Omega is one company I would trust for this myself; they sell for industrial applications, not homes, and have a good reputation when it comes to sensors. A CO monitor will set you back $235.
Any off the shelf product should be fine (there are standards they have to meet). Kiddie and First Alert are both well regarded brands.
I use First Alert personally (they have model with Z-Wave integration that ties into my home automation system). We carry a few Kiddie smoke/CO detectors on the fire truck to install if we notice a home doesn't have one (or if the one they had failed).
I think CO doesn't get unstuck from hemoglobin at all. 2 weeks sounds about right, in that that would be the body's mean replacement time for a hemoglobin molecule.
The normal half-life of carboxyhemoglobin, when the patient is breathing room air, is 240 to 360 minutes (4-6 hours). The half-life of COHb can be decreased to 80 minutes with the administration of 100% oxygen.
an addition here - there are two classifications of CO poisoning: acute and chronic. Acute is deadly in anywhere between minutes and hours. Chronic ranges from not deadly to lethal and can be after hours, days, or months of exposure.
"3D laser printer" probably means a Glowforge. Nobody else calls them that. Their documentation says "Lasers normally require some ventilation via a small tube out a nearby window. Our optional Air Filter that sits under Glowforge and ventilates using HEPA filters and charcoal, meaning no outside ventilation is required." That won't do much if you cut something that emits carbon monoxide when heated. That includes some common plastics, styrene being one.
There are lots of things you don't want to cut on a laser cutter unless
you're cutting under an inert gas, or at least nitrogen. Polycarbonate, any of the chlorinated plastics (PVC, some synthetic leather), styrenes, and polyethylene, for example. ABS melts, and Fiberglas's glass component won't cut. Acrylics cut very well. Delrin cuts OK. Wood and cloth are OK. Techshop is careful to teach people about this.
TechShop's laser cutters have compressed air coming in, a big exhaust hose going out, and a fire extinguisher nearby. TechShop has an ad slogan, "Don't try this at home. Do it at TechShop". There's something to be said for that when you're using industrial-strength tools.
In addition to the two people, their two cats died. Operating these things in a closed room is a really bad idea.
I'm the CEO and cofounder of Glowforge - we're so saddened by this tragedy. Our product was not involved, but that doesn't make us feel any better about this loss.
If you use a laser, ours or anyone else's, please go back right now and re-read the safety instructions. Accidents like this should never happen. My heart breaks for those affected by this.
It would be appropriate to put a CO detector in your units before somebody does that with one of yours. That definitely needs to be in the "filtered" units that are supposed to operate with no ventilation.
The air filter costs an additional $750 extra when you buy the $3000 Glowforge, I could see students skimping on that and no realizing the implications. https://glowforge.com/order
That said I watched the video for this product and I'm really looking forward to when these are widespread. It's a very exciting industry. I'd definitely buy one of these when it gets to around $1k.
Why are we talking about the air filter? a) whether it was a glowforge system is still speculation b) air filters do not have anything to do with CO, only particulate.
The order page definitely doesn't have any warning about the basic - even I would go 'Nah, what's the $720 for? Upsell?'
How about:
Glowforge Pro + Air Filter: $5,995.00
Glowforge Basic + Air Filter: $3,745.00
Glowforge Basic: $2,995.00
Warning: You may die when using Glowforge inside without Air filter (link). You may also die when cuting these materials (link) inside even with air filter.
Yeah, in my lab we prohibited cutting anything with chlorine, including PVC and polycarbonate.
The results are really bad anyways, it melts and burns. I'm curious though, can you get good cutting of polycarbonate using an inert gas shield? That would be interesting.
CNC zone reports that cutting polycarbonate on higher power lasers under nitrogen can be made to work, but it's touchy.[1] The plastic tends to melt rather than cut. Pre-freezing the material is suggested.
Their laser printer was stored/run in their closet. They may have been doing this for a while with no problems because Berkeley is so nice and everyone leaves their windows open.
Berkeley has been unusually cold/rainy this last week and I'm guessing they sealed up their apt and didn't realize how dangerous that was.
This is so tragic. I used to work with Roger and he's about as gifted of an engineer as I've ever met. He was so nice and helpful too, even though he was miles beyond me in terms of skill.
He was so into his indy game, Shard, and even whipped out his laptop to show me and started explaining intricacies of the renderer when I met him at an industry event years later.
I didn't know his wife, but from the things I've read she was also a pioneer in her industry. Rest in Peace.
I've always been wary of 3d printers and laser cutters because of indoor air pollution & VOCs. Though I didn't realize the amount they put out and the cumulative effects of CO as mentioned in the comments here.
My sense is that laser cutters should be required to come with CO detectors, and more generally we should be looking to add the appropriate chemical detectors to 3d printers and laser printers to warn of other chemical output issues. These home machines are often advertised for use in confined spaces (size is one way manufacturers compete), which is why I think it should be regulated - its not like someone took a commercial machine home with them. Laser cutters are a fairly large capital expense and bolting on a CO detector is very inexpensive (probably <1%), and it could integrate with the cutter's electronics to prevent usage if it exceeds a certain level.
Safety regulations are usually written in blood. Having two deaths with such a small # of these machines out there suggests there are probably others who have cumulative CO effects already. Very sad, my heart goes out to the friends and family of Roger & Valerie.
As both a maker and a firefighter, I would be _very_ surprised if CO from a laser cutter was actually the cause here. Laser cutters can absolutely emit harmful fumes, but CO needs to be in the hundreds of ppm range to be fatal, and that's a _lot_ of CO.
For context, we had a call a while back where a guy was running a gas powered (two-stroke) rotary saw [1] for a couple hours in a poorly ventilated basement. CO levels were in the 300-400 range (and he was certainly feeling poorly).
My dad mentioned that he almost died from a wall heater in college. He was 'sick with the flu' and getting worse. One night laying in bed the wall heater fired up. He saw the light from the flame flickering on the floor and he thought 'that's odd it's orange not blue'
The exhaust was blocked with soot.
I also had a friend and his GF that died from an improperly installed furnace.
I also wonder about cyanide from cutting plastic as well as carbon monoxide. No idea, but they both seem about as toxic.
Roger and Val’s friends are trying to raise money to offset the family’s costs for traveling to the funeral and making funeral arrangements. Contributions can be made online:
"According to a study completed by a team at the Illinois Institute of Technology, typical desktop 3D printers emit particles and compounds during printing that federal agencies say could cause cancer or other ailments."
Though this is marketed as a "laser printer" its most likely a laser cutter. Glow forge was the first I know of to start this stupid fad of calling them printers to be associated with the 3D printer market.
Laser cutters burn materials at high energy and need to be properly vented.
Exactly. This was more like having an unventilated fireplace in the house, except it makes much less smoke so you don't realize just how dangerous it is.
Readit News
I've been talking to the police directly, and nothing is conclusive yet. Nothing has actually been ruled out, nor determined to be the cause. They don't even have full toxicology reports yet, those take days and sometimes weeks.
On a personal note, I can tell you that there were two devices in the house, a small 3D printer, and a small laser cutter, that were used for building models and rigs for scientific research. Val was an immaculate engineer, and conformed to all safety rules in operating these machines. To the best of our knowledge, neither of the machines were operating the night they passed away.
Again, please refrain from fear-mongering and speculation. I know it's natural for engineers to attack unsolved problems, but you are not working with correct or full data. Once more data is available, we will write up a complete and truthful statement to try and provide closure on this issue.
To answer some of the questions in this thread all at once:
1. The unit was about 900 square feet. Looks like someone calculated roughly that from the publicly available information.
2. The laser cutter itself was a very small device. I don't remember the exact size, but the cutting bed wasn't more than 2 by 2 feet, and likely smaller than that.
3. Most importantly, from what the investigators told us, the laser cutter bed was completely empty and it wasn't running when they found it. The same goes for the 3D printer.
Friends here on the ground have their ideas based on what we know about the apartment, and we have made suggestions to the investigators. We are hoping they do due diligence. While I'd like to tell you more, we are trying to avoid all speculation. We know it's stressful, but please hang in there.
Condolences
CO is odorless. You might get a headache, or you might only feel tired. What's worse: a lot of cheap CO detectors are pretty shoddy.
https://www.reddit.com/r/bestof/comments/34novp/user_thinks_...
For context, our house is 3 levels with a furnace in the basement (cold climate; Canada) I ended up with 3 different brand of CO detectors, 2 different brands of smoke detectors and 1 radon detector.
By far the Radon detector is the most expensive at around $250 CAD, and least critical for the short term (but for the long term concerns, anyone with a below grade section of their home should have one!).
A decent Co + smoke detector (You can often get them in one unit) should cost you no more than $30-40 CAD. Testing a CO detector isn't super easy (not like smoke detectors - just make some well done toast), but I'm trusting that if i have several different kinds well distributed throughout the house at least one of them should save us.
I focused on keeping detectors both near and & inside bedrooms, as well as having a minimum of 1 smoke + CO detector on the other floors in open spaces.
Unrelated to these gasses, I also purchased VOC sensors. These are SUPER interesting. It's amazing how the VOC level rises after a few days, and all it takes is opening a window for a few hours to bring it back to lower levels. We were renovating recently and found that after virtually every contractor the house needed hours of windows open to bring the VOC level back down to something that the sensor considered "good quality" (lower than 450 ppm).
Hope that random rant was interesting to someone :)
After I purchased my new house (USA, Georgia) I put in the detectors. My wife is from China where people are rightfully paranoid about formaldehyde - due to low quality building material. It's basically the same in the USA, except people are a lot less knowledgeable and informed about it. My cabinets, drywall, paint all had high level of formaldehyde. Had to always had the windows open...otherwise it would rise above OSHA approved levels.
In the USA, there's no regulated levels for residence..but there is for office. Funny, isn't it.
Volatile organic compounds (VOCs) are organic chemicals that have a high vapor pressure at ordinary room temperature.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volatile_organic_compound
EDIT: I ended up ordering a Foobot after doing some homework
I'm curious what options are out there that will connect via something like RS232 or USB and let you tie into a centralized logging system (which would be incredibly easy to build). "Windows app with one-click data export" would be nice but isn't quite the same as a realtime feed.
The main question would be whether polite pokings would produce protocol documentation, if this isn't already shoved in a forgotten corner on the website (or something).
You can't just go outside to get fresh air since the CO just won't let go.
I believe the normal way it works is oxygen and carbon dioxide use different sections of hemoglobin molecule so they never interfere with the way each are transported. But CO hogs it all oxygen has no chance of affixing to hemoglobin since there is nowhere to stick.
CO's action is not purely competitive. Its binding at one binding site influences the three other sites to bind oxygen so strongly that oxygen won't dissociate from the complex where it is needed; In tissues, starving them of oxygen.
Yes you can...
http://www.remsaeducation.com/news/carbon-monoxide-poisoning...
That smells of an easy sensationalist headline there.
They may have had a deadly amount of CO/particulates from their laser cutter in their apt but their ventilation kept them alive. Closing their windows during last week's rain/cold spells could have been deadly. Also there is a possibility of particulate buildup in vents that could have been released if they turned on their heat in an enclosed apartment.
CO leaves you with diminished capability to bind o2, breathing in a small enclosed apt leads to a buildup of CO2. This tragedy could be a combination of CO and CO2 inhalation.
They may not be accurate but they don't need to be at the levels where CO becomes fatal. It is better to have several inexpensive ones than just one or two $300 highly accurate ones. Since you don't know where the CO will be localised.
You can test them yourself fairly inexpensively look for "HOME SAFEGUARD HO-CO2 Carbon Monoxide Detector Tester, Aerosol." Get a Ziploc bag or similar air tight baggy. Place the alarm in a bag, spray the Aerosol in it, and wait. It should go off in 2-5 minutes. Obviously it is best to do this test outside.
Consumer Reports also tests them:
http://www.consumerreports.org/products/carbon-monoxide-alar...
http://www.omega.com/pptst/AQM-103.html
I use First Alert personally (they have model with Z-Wave integration that ties into my home automation system). We carry a few Kiddie smoke/CO detectors on the fire truck to install if we notice a home doesn't have one (or if the one they had failed).
Does the CO actually get out or do the red blood cells die and get replaced?
Deleted Comment
There are lots of things you don't want to cut on a laser cutter unless you're cutting under an inert gas, or at least nitrogen. Polycarbonate, any of the chlorinated plastics (PVC, some synthetic leather), styrenes, and polyethylene, for example. ABS melts, and Fiberglas's glass component won't cut. Acrylics cut very well. Delrin cuts OK. Wood and cloth are OK. Techshop is careful to teach people about this.
TechShop's laser cutters have compressed air coming in, a big exhaust hose going out, and a fire extinguisher nearby. TechShop has an ad slogan, "Don't try this at home. Do it at TechShop". There's something to be said for that when you're using industrial-strength tools.
In addition to the two people, their two cats died. Operating these things in a closed room is a really bad idea.
If you use a laser, ours or anyone else's, please go back right now and re-read the safety instructions. Accidents like this should never happen. My heart breaks for those affected by this.
It would be appropriate to put a CO detector in your units before somebody does that with one of yours. That definitely needs to be in the "filtered" units that are supposed to operate with no ventilation.
That said I watched the video for this product and I'm really looking forward to when these are widespread. It's a very exciting industry. I'd definitely buy one of these when it gets to around $1k.
They weren't students. Roger was a game developer while Valerie was a post-doc. They just happened to live in Berkeley.
How about:
Glowforge Pro + Air Filter: $5,995.00
Glowforge Basic + Air Filter: $3,745.00
Glowforge Basic: $2,995.00 Warning: You may die when using Glowforge inside without Air filter (link). You may also die when cuting these materials (link) inside even with air filter.
The results are really bad anyways, it melts and burns. I'm curious though, can you get good cutting of polycarbonate using an inert gas shield? That would be interesting.
[1] http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general-laser-engraving-cuttin...
Berkeley has been unusually cold/rainy this last week and I'm guessing they sealed up their apt and didn't realize how dangerous that was.
He was so into his indy game, Shard, and even whipped out his laptop to show me and started explaining intricacies of the renderer when I met him at an industry event years later.
I didn't know his wife, but from the things I've read she was also a pioneer in her industry. Rest in Peace.
My sense is that laser cutters should be required to come with CO detectors, and more generally we should be looking to add the appropriate chemical detectors to 3d printers and laser printers to warn of other chemical output issues. These home machines are often advertised for use in confined spaces (size is one way manufacturers compete), which is why I think it should be regulated - its not like someone took a commercial machine home with them. Laser cutters are a fairly large capital expense and bolting on a CO detector is very inexpensive (probably <1%), and it could integrate with the cutter's electronics to prevent usage if it exceeds a certain level.
Safety regulations are usually written in blood. Having two deaths with such a small # of these machines out there suggests there are probably others who have cumulative CO effects already. Very sad, my heart goes out to the friends and family of Roger & Valerie.
That's a surprising cause though. How much CO can a laser printer/cutter produce, worst case?
[1] http://www.ci.berkeley.ca.us/Planning_and_Development/Housin...
As both a maker and a firefighter, I would be _very_ surprised if CO from a laser cutter was actually the cause here. Laser cutters can absolutely emit harmful fumes, but CO needs to be in the hundreds of ppm range to be fatal, and that's a _lot_ of CO.
For context, we had a call a while back where a guy was running a gas powered (two-stroke) rotary saw [1] for a couple hours in a poorly ventilated basement. CO levels were in the 300-400 range (and he was certainly feeling poorly).
[1] Something like this: https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/0804841
The exhaust was blocked with soot.
I also had a friend and his GF that died from an improperly installed furnace.
I also wonder about cyanide from cutting plastic as well as carbon monoxide. No idea, but they both seem about as toxic.
https://www.gofundme.com/help-roger-hanna-morashs-family
"According to a study completed by a team at the Illinois Institute of Technology, typical desktop 3D printers emit particles and compounds during printing that federal agencies say could cause cancer or other ailments."
http://www.chicagotribune.com/bluesky/originals/ct-3d-printe...