I still love PHP. 23 years ago we created some encryption software for it and it is still going. I also run a PHP newsletter. There's still a strong community of people and whilst there are other languages which I also use (Python, Node.js) I still find myself gravitating towards PHP for fast and simple work
The only issues I have. is that this is a 'double edged sword' in that PHP has become far more complex since the launch of PHP 5 and so it isn't as easy to understand from scratch as it used to be
PHP is a perfect example of how to undergo major transitions correctly.
In the time that it took Python to go from Python 2 to 3, PHP underwent 5.2 -> 5.3 and 5.6 -> 7.0. 5.3 changed how you write PHP in a fundamental way by introducing namespaces and PSR0 autoloading. Then, 5.6 -> 7.0 cleaned up the parser, resulting in massive speed improvements.
They did this by not breaking the universe in these major updates...or really, any of there updates. Each update would break a few specific things, warn you about a few other things that were going to break in the near future, while giving you ways to shim the old behavior if you _really_ needed it.
They also gave you ample carrots reasons to update - aside from what was already mentioned, my personal favorite update was PHP 5.4 because it introduced short array syntax, made UTF-8 the default charset, introduced traits, and finally put register globals and magic quotes out of their misery...but giving you a shim if you had some ancient project that needed it.
If you're wondering why PHP 6 was abandoned, it was because it was an update in the style of Python 3 by breaking strings everywhere. In retrospect, I think the decision to cancel 6 was the right one. Somehow, I doubt that PHP would've had the influx of data science and AI that saved Python 3.
Hats off to the project - I've long been off of the CGI-style web development narcotic, but the language put food on my table for quite some time, and the people steering the language treated their community well.
> They did this by not breaking the universe in these major updates
I don't think the amount of breakage per se was the problem with Python 3. I think the problem was that for a long time (until u"" strings in 3.3? four years after 3.0?) there was ~no way for a library to support both 2 and 3 in a single codebase. That meant that each project had to either maintain a fork, or do a "flag day" migration, which in practice meant you couldn't migrate until all your dependencies were migrated. Big mistake in retrospect.
I've seen a few other comments also talk about PHP becoming more complex. However, I have "simple" code built using 5.3 and it works perfectly fine in 8. So I guess it CAN be complex, but doesn't really need to be. The biggest changes I would make to that code are fixing the multiple 'switch' and 'if/else' blocks to an anonymous function or some mapping... but it's not required.
This is true. As long as only one person interacts with the code, all languages can be simple. C++ can be simple.
But once multiple people are involved and I have to read someone else's code, then I really start to appreciate languages with less features. There are some language I love to write code in, like Ruby or Haskell, where I feel like a damn genius when I write it, but want to pull my hair out when I have to read someone else's code.
I think PHP 8 is easy to understand if you write it from scratch, you just have to learn doing things the right way, read up on PSRs and so on. It is a bit more complex but much more secure and supports quite a lot of things now that are definitely helpful to have.
PHP's evolution since PHP 5 has been substantial, and I think this is a real problem. As someone who learned the language years ago, the pace of change (generics, attributes, match expressions, typed properties) makes modern codebases genuinely difficult to follow.
I suspect this affects many developers who cut their teeth on PHP but haven't kept up. The language has become a different beast, which is a strength for the community but a barrier to re-entry.
IMO, newer PHP is still very readable. I programmed with C++ for a decade, but I can safely say that I cannot understand a modern C++ code base anymore.
It's a real problem with almost all software today, nothing ever gets done. they just keep piling unto it no matter how great it was. the idea of simplicity as a goal and feature is lost on this generation.
Simplicity may often get ignored but I think it's been a big reason for Python's success which has gone from about #10 on the TIOBE language list to #1 since when I started learning it, which was probably around when the XKCD "everything is so simple" cartoon came out. (https://xkcd.com/353/)
I dunno; I started with PHP 5 (actually, I think I started in late PHP 4), and I've only been happy with the changes as it's evolved.
The only one that's caused me any significant stress is the deprecation of the old `mysql` DB interface; I had to refactor a whole bunch of code for that, since I'm maintaining a codebase that's been in continuous use & development since 2001.
The additions to PHP since 5 add more things you can do, but they don't really change the simple things you can do to first learn PHP. You can still just create a .php file and start interspersing HTML and <?php script tags with basic operations.
To be fair, that’s true of many languages and programming domains. The web, in particular, is one where you have to keep pace or end up out of the field.
Java and C# are a couple other popular languages where the same is also true.
Most likely this can be said about a lot of languages, most languages are being maintained and improved. I am an hired expert in Java and I needed to explain some new languages features to some colleagues that have been introduced recently, I only mention them if they actually improve readability though.
I think PHP might be slightly different than other languages as a huge amount of people use this to create their first website as a hobby.
C hasn’t changed all that much, and someone who coded in C99 would take about 30mins to catch up to a modern C23 codebase’s changes. Famously so, as conservatism to change is the main friction in the community for about two decades now.
If you pull out examples of the earliest C, sure, it looks weird. But that C was already obsolete in 1989. Since then, it’s had a minor iteration (e.g. five-eight additions/modifications) every decade-ish (99, 11, 17, 23). Has it changed? Sure. Can it be compared to the iteration and speed of things like C#, Java, C++, etc? No way.
I think he's thinking more along the lines of PHP 5-8.5
That version 1-latest is understandingly highly different, but these are all decades old languages, which barely changed for some time, but are now all introducing new syntax.
Which I think makes sense, but it's obviously going to leave 9-5 devs behind that don't particularly care for coding and want to invest as little time as possible into their language knowledge.
You can still write php 5-esque slop and have it run... mostly (some particulars like the half dozen ways of interpolating a variable into a string have been paired down, some extensions left in the dustbin, but the fundamental "shit out a script and run it" capability still remains doable).
non of the "modern" things are particularly taxing to teach someone with more than two braincells. If they don't understand them then they haven't kept up with ANY programming trends in the past decade and are best placed infront of the TV with an iPad than left to mess with the possible critical infrastructure of a business.
It has nothing to do with being “too hard”, and everything to do with not making sense to the type system. PHP is weakly-typed and heavily reflection-based (so everything is aware of it’s and each other’s type at all times).
Adding generics to PHP would make CS fundamentalists somewhat happy, but do nothing to change the fundamental design of PHP nor offer any of the traditional benefits that generics offer to strongly-typed and compiled languages. And would be a massive headache to implement, while bulking an already heavy VM implementation.
You are probably talking about this: https://stitcher.io/blog/generics-in-php-3 . If I remember correctly, the author claims it will either cause runtime overhead or extreme memory overhead. The best solution is to introduce a typed superset of PHP like TypeScript was done for JavaScript.
TLDR: The PHP compiler isn't really suited for the job, it would introduce a lot of complexity to an already complex codebase and the memory/performance hit would be substantial.
A lot of people are too proud to be associated with PHP. I am ready to admit that know nothing about the language except that a lot of people make cool things with it.
My favourite PHP product at the moment is BookStack (https://www.bookstackapp.com/), a really good wiki. I run an instance for my family and it's great.
But there are loads of things. And I notice that many of the sites I like using...are built on well maintained PHP stacks.
Modern PHP is a damn fine, fast language. I wrote production PHP from 2021 to 2023. The problem with PHP wasn't the language or the ecosystem (PHP community packages are very solid in my experience), it's the existing PHP code you'll work with and the people that hire for PHP.
My salary literally doubled within two years of getting a gig that wasn't PHP. If you see a listing for PHP dev work, there's a good chance it's notably lower salary. There are still solid gigs for it, but I swear they lean lower.
The other problem is the existing codebases. There is some awful legacy PHP 4 era code. There are also a lot of practices that old PHP had that are just awful to work with, and there's a bit of variety in there. So many bad data access patterns out there. Many of old PHP codebases have their own spin on that kind of thing.
I understand this isn't actually due to the language, but there is a real correlation (in my experience) between old bad code and it being in PHP. Which is totally fair because it was a good tool to reach for to "get shit done (r)" and that code was successful enough to have to continue to live.
Modern PHP has, thanks to the core language and the big frameworks, made it wonderful. I lead a big push to go from PHP 5.8 to PHP 8.1 at the time at my last company. It was wonderful. The quality of the code we were enabled to write was huge.
If I was starting a new project today, I probably wouldn't reach for PHP, but I'd gladly join in on a modern (last ten years) Laravel project.
PHP is a very pleasant and straight-forward language to work with. I enjoyed my time working with it, though I did also see quite a lot of very poor code.
I think the danger with PHP is more its ability to easily cause *very bad things*.
This would partially be poor training (my University literally taught PHP with SQL-injectable examples), and I think the language itself making it very easy, such that less-experienced developers using it - most of them, early on - don't realise what's wrong until it's gone wrong.
With PHP being such an early tool online, and the above properties existing, it earned a reputation for being insecure and bad.
At least in my experience, the early years of PHP was lacking more enterprisey users; back then there was a small revolution when RoR came out and introduced the MVC pattern to a lot of (web) developers, who didn't have as opinionated a pattern / architecture up until then.
During that same period, there were a lot of mediocre tutorials and documentation online, including on the PHP website itself which allowed people in comments to post code examples, but as far as I know there wasn't a lot of moderation on those.
And finally, a lot of people ended up writing their own frameworks and the like, because they could. But also because there weren't any or not many good and widely adopted frameworks out there, that came later with first Zend Framework and then Laravel, the latter being the de-facto standard nowadays.
I'd take PHP instead of JS/TS + framework-of-the-day on the backend anytime. Ok, PHP is usually also paired with a framework (cough Laravel cough), but at least there the situation is more stable, not to mention more mature. Unfortunately, I'm not the only one making the decisions...
A lot of mediocre devs sitting at corporations that migrated from PHP to Java and currently can’t write relatively good code in any language make jokes of PHP, because it was popular for some time.
They won’t admit the language gave them food, they have no idea how language looks today and are way too proud to admit any of that.
A lot of C# and Java code is oriented towards web backends, too. Which are quite big and complex. So it seems natural that languages in the same design space (trad OO) converge on similar features. I think the only exception these days is Go.
I think these days you could change "You can write Fortran in any language" to "You can structure your code like Spring in any language"…
I don't see how making a language more complex can help with that. Complex languages makes sense for system programming where you want to squeeze some performance.
Still, even if it was "just" the web, why wouldn't it evolve? It's a great language, with a big user base, and there's always room for improvements and to increase the developer experience
I downvoted you before reading the fine article. I'm back to correct that.
The new array_first() and array_last() functions are nice, everything else is either reimplantation of existing features or "features"which will make maintainability more difficult. The pipe operator is one such example. I don't need it - these nested methods are not really an issue in any codebase I've seen. The new syntax only works for unary functions, so higher arity functions must be wrapped in an arrow function. It's a mess and more bug prone than just nesting the functions.
Many of the newer features have this problem. Like the match keyword, enums, closures etc. They are half-baked versions of what could be powerful and expressive features.
Meanwhile it seemingly abandoned features and unique selling points, like the in-built templating, associative arrays with value semantics and the fact that it integrates well with C or the simple fact that it can be used to write web server scripts very easily. To me, many of these cool features have been largely ignored or even moved away from.
I don't understand how this is more bug prone. The nesting is a HUGE problem because it's extremely unreadable. The arrow is much more readable, and array functions are very simple too.
I'm sort of on the opposite side. I'm unconvinced by extra functions for arrays in the global namespace and I'm happier about syntactic improvements and debugging improvements.
That is an anti-pattern, since it suffers from shell meta-character injection (and argument injection). Since PHP has mkdir, you should use that instead. And pcntl_exec() is the correct API for running processes.
Typical users of this likely don't care the slightest about whether anyone considers it an anti-pattern, because you use those in order to write utility scripts. And those who care would use tooling to detect issues like that anyways.
Readit News
The only issues I have. is that this is a 'double edged sword' in that PHP has become far more complex since the launch of PHP 5 and so it isn't as easy to understand from scratch as it used to be
In the time that it took Python to go from Python 2 to 3, PHP underwent 5.2 -> 5.3 and 5.6 -> 7.0. 5.3 changed how you write PHP in a fundamental way by introducing namespaces and PSR0 autoloading. Then, 5.6 -> 7.0 cleaned up the parser, resulting in massive speed improvements.
They did this by not breaking the universe in these major updates...or really, any of there updates. Each update would break a few specific things, warn you about a few other things that were going to break in the near future, while giving you ways to shim the old behavior if you _really_ needed it.
They also gave you ample carrots reasons to update - aside from what was already mentioned, my personal favorite update was PHP 5.4 because it introduced short array syntax, made UTF-8 the default charset, introduced traits, and finally put register globals and magic quotes out of their misery...but giving you a shim if you had some ancient project that needed it.
If you're wondering why PHP 6 was abandoned, it was because it was an update in the style of Python 3 by breaking strings everywhere. In retrospect, I think the decision to cancel 6 was the right one. Somehow, I doubt that PHP would've had the influx of data science and AI that saved Python 3.
Hats off to the project - I've long been off of the CGI-style web development narcotic, but the language put food on my table for quite some time, and the people steering the language treated their community well.
I don't think the amount of breakage per se was the problem with Python 3. I think the problem was that for a long time (until u"" strings in 3.3? four years after 3.0?) there was ~no way for a library to support both 2 and 3 in a single codebase. That meant that each project had to either maintain a fork, or do a "flag day" migration, which in practice meant you couldn't migrate until all your dependencies were migrated. Big mistake in retrospect.
But once multiple people are involved and I have to read someone else's code, then I really start to appreciate languages with less features. There are some language I love to write code in, like Ruby or Haskell, where I feel like a damn genius when I write it, but want to pull my hair out when I have to read someone else's code.
ZEND?
I remember "nulling" software in the mid-00's and Zend was always a terrible ball-ache.
Which, if that was your project, is high praise. :)
I suspect this affects many developers who cut their teeth on PHP but haven't kept up. The language has become a different beast, which is a strength for the community but a barrier to re-entry.
The only one that's caused me any significant stress is the deprecation of the old `mysql` DB interface; I had to refactor a whole bunch of code for that, since I'm maintaining a codebase that's been in continuous use & development since 2001.
The additions to PHP since 5 add more things you can do, but they don't really change the simple things you can do to first learn PHP. You can still just create a .php file and start interspersing HTML and <?php script tags with basic operations.
Java and C# are a couple other popular languages where the same is also true.
If you pull out examples of the earliest C, sure, it looks weird. But that C was already obsolete in 1989. Since then, it’s had a minor iteration (e.g. five-eight additions/modifications) every decade-ish (99, 11, 17, 23). Has it changed? Sure. Can it be compared to the iteration and speed of things like C#, Java, C++, etc? No way.
That version 1-latest is understandingly highly different, but these are all decades old languages, which barely changed for some time, but are now all introducing new syntax.
Which I think makes sense, but it's obviously going to leave 9-5 devs behind that don't particularly care for coding and want to invest as little time as possible into their language knowledge.
But PHP 5 was released 21 years ago and is unsupported. Companies using it are putting their customers at risk.
non of the "modern" things are particularly taxing to teach someone with more than two braincells. If they don't understand them then they haven't kept up with ANY programming trends in the past decade and are best placed infront of the TV with an iPad than left to mess with the possible critical infrastructure of a business.
Adding generics to PHP would make CS fundamentalists somewhat happy, but do nothing to change the fundamental design of PHP nor offer any of the traditional benefits that generics offer to strongly-typed and compiled languages. And would be a massive headache to implement, while bulking an already heavy VM implementation.
TLDR: The PHP compiler isn't really suited for the job, it would introduce a lot of complexity to an already complex codebase and the memory/performance hit would be substantial.
My favourite PHP product at the moment is BookStack (https://www.bookstackapp.com/), a really good wiki. I run an instance for my family and it's great.
But there are loads of things. And I notice that many of the sites I like using...are built on well maintained PHP stacks.
My salary literally doubled within two years of getting a gig that wasn't PHP. If you see a listing for PHP dev work, there's a good chance it's notably lower salary. There are still solid gigs for it, but I swear they lean lower.
The other problem is the existing codebases. There is some awful legacy PHP 4 era code. There are also a lot of practices that old PHP had that are just awful to work with, and there's a bit of variety in there. So many bad data access patterns out there. Many of old PHP codebases have their own spin on that kind of thing.
I understand this isn't actually due to the language, but there is a real correlation (in my experience) between old bad code and it being in PHP. Which is totally fair because it was a good tool to reach for to "get shit done (r)" and that code was successful enough to have to continue to live.
Modern PHP has, thanks to the core language and the big frameworks, made it wonderful. I lead a big push to go from PHP 5.8 to PHP 8.1 at the time at my last company. It was wonderful. The quality of the code we were enabled to write was huge.
If I was starting a new project today, I probably wouldn't reach for PHP, but I'd gladly join in on a modern (last ten years) Laravel project.
I think the danger with PHP is more its ability to easily cause *very bad things*.
This would partially be poor training (my University literally taught PHP with SQL-injectable examples), and I think the language itself making it very easy, such that less-experienced developers using it - most of them, early on - don't realise what's wrong until it's gone wrong.
With PHP being such an early tool online, and the above properties existing, it earned a reputation for being insecure and bad.
Is there any language where you can't?
During that same period, there were a lot of mediocre tutorials and documentation online, including on the PHP website itself which allowed people in comments to post code examples, but as far as I know there wasn't a lot of moderation on those.
And finally, a lot of people ended up writing their own frameworks and the like, because they could. But also because there weren't any or not many good and widely adopted frameworks out there, that came later with first Zend Framework and then Laravel, the latter being the de-facto standard nowadays.
But of course this assumes that you work with a team that can see a year ahead, let alone 10.
Coding in PHP can be a lot like playing the guitar or writing poetry: many people can do it, but it’s easy to do very badly.
AzuraCast because I like learning by looking at code and hosting my own radio/music
How so?
Another wiki that uses php is Wikipedia.
People like to shit on php but it powers some of the largest sites in the world.
At the end of the day, programming language doesn't matter much. You can be a good programmer in any language and a bad programmer in any language.
A really good forum software.
I think these days you could change "You can write Fortran in any language" to "You can structure your code like Spring in any language"…
Still, even if it was "just" the web, why wouldn't it evolve? It's a great language, with a big user base, and there's always room for improvements and to increase the developer experience
The new array_first() and array_last() functions are nice, everything else is either reimplantation of existing features or "features"which will make maintainability more difficult. The pipe operator is one such example. I don't need it - these nested methods are not really an issue in any codebase I've seen. The new syntax only works for unary functions, so higher arity functions must be wrapped in an arrow function. It's a mess and more bug prone than just nesting the functions.
It's coming - but to get PHP RFCs to pass they have to be salami-sliced, otherwise they're voted down.
https://wiki.php.net/rfc/partial_function_application_v2
Meanwhile it seemingly abandoned features and unique selling points, like the in-built templating, associative arrays with value semantics and the fact that it integrates well with C or the simple fact that it can be used to write web server scripts very easily. To me, many of these cool features have been largely ignored or even moved away from.
Most of the time if I want the first or last element I don't care about the array itself so array_shift and array_pop work just fine.
like in `mkdir $dirname`;