Yep I've been thinking BYD is just some Chinese brand that's only in China, but I saw one on the road in the UK recently and looked it up and they actually have something like 80 showrooms in the UK already. Way more than Tesla.
Maybe making a dumb triangular truck that nobody wanted wasn't such a good idea after all. I imagine the BYD cars have such mod cons as rain sensors that work and indicator stalks too.
In the US best selling Tesla is Model Y, but even without the brand damage I'm not sure that type of design/price is going to do well in the UK, and Cybertruck is not well suited to UK's narrower roads (esp. in city).
Do anyone know why American brands never seem to agree to slim down cars by ~15% for export sales? IIUC, excessive width universal to every American cars including all Tesla models was always a massive detrimental factor outside US for past ~50 years.
I've been keeping an eye on BYD and they're just starting to appear in the UK, but there are already quite a few MG EVs - the old British brand MG was bought by a Chinese company. There's a light blue non-metallic colour which seems to be one of their standard colours and is very distinctive.
I saw one in the US a few weeks ago that had a Mexican license plate. Pretty interesting because I'm aware of the brand but had not seen one in person.
I'm baffled by the multiple levels of irony if you could go into Mexico and buy an EV that you can then use in the US. That would make even Elon's head twist off.
The only reason BYD was heavily "censored"/tariffed was because US said EU to do so.
Now that US soft-power is waning (800b from EU + 500b from Germany alone for militech) the floodgates might open and it will way surpass the Tesla. Maybe even some partnership between BMW/VW/Daimler with BYD can come out of it - imagine that.
The official reason EU added tariffs on Chinese cars, was that Chinese EV manufacturers receive unfair government subsidies. This allowed Chinese cars to be priced lower than European cars.
So it was to protect EU car manufacturers (which are still struggling a bit with EVs).
I don't think it was US "soft-power". However, the EU may impose tariffs on US produced cars as part of the coming trade-war, which may hurt Tesla in future (or maybe not as they also produce Tesla cars in Germany).
I hope that Tesla will change its top management asap.
Imagine a situation where you have a new 800V infrastructure already applied to cybertruck and decide to update the Model Y with just “minor” adjustments. Which means that both M3 and MY will get 800V/48V when? 2/3 years minimum.
> I hope that Tesla will change its top management asap.
Change it to who?
Their price to earnings is like 100x. The entire market cap is built by Elon's non-stop hyping of FSD / Robo-Taxi / etc. We gunna resurrect Billy Mays here to do the marketing?
The entire executive office is just dumping their Tesla stock, they know the company has no value and if they get rid of Musk it's probably a nail in the coffin for the stock price.
> if they get rid of Musk it's probably a nail in the coffin for the stock price.
It's already significantly off its peak, and Musk is now so unpopular because of his political interventions that people are firebombing Tesla dealerships and vandalizing the cars. I can't really see how that's going to be good marketing.
According to Lars Moravy, the front gigacasting and steer-by-wire were not implemented for the new Model Y due to them having trouble switching the supply chain over [1]. I guess the 800V is for the same reason. Lars said it was much easier for the Cybertruck to change to the newer systems because they expected lower sales numbers. The Model Y on the other hand has to go into mass production straight away at 3 different factories, and they wanted to keep the production process the same at all three (he talks about this at 28:50).
I mean, we all know who the driver is to launch 'cybertrucks' and 'robotaxis' instead of more affordable variations.
Also, not sure what the whole 800v hype is about. I rent EVs for roadtrips and Tesla's are basically the fastest charging ones with current architecture, haven't had a need for 800v since at the cell level the charging speed is already maxed out.
Re: the Y, even though they won't sell because some hand gestures and behaviors, they did almost every complaint people have about the old model Y.
Looking at EVDatabase, it seems like the 800v cars charge quite a lot faster? The EV6 manages 205kW average compared to 124kW for the long range Model Y. From my experience, the EV6 hits those charging speeds very reliably.
Everything I've seen is that Hyundai/Kia's charge noticeably (though not massively) faster than Tesla's. I've never DCFC a Tesla to compare but my Ioniq is usually under 20 mins in practice
This was always going to happen. It was a matter of time for competition to come. Tesla having tech company valuation is ridiculous, since they have none of the economic advantages typical of tech companies: easy scaling, network effect and user lock-in.
They also didn't have the knack for handling compliance, quality assurance and sophisticated supply logistics that the established car industry already has and would be necessary in the long term.
Yeah moving fast and breaking things does not work for car companies. In a software company if some programmers fix a bug, they (generally speaking) fix it for all users. For cars, you have to recall and manually fix all cars individually.
China has everything needed for cheap and efficient manufacturing. The design skills, the infrastructure, the cheap labour, the network of factories, etc.
The US does not.
The only reason the US might win at car manufacturing will be if there are sufficient tariffs or other trade barriers. In a free market, China will win.
The US is not going to win at car manufacturing outside the US anymore and right now it's not even clear it will win inside the US or with our closest trading partners. Tariffs are not being wielded effectively to protect US car manufacturing in the US.
Agreed. Tarrifs and doge are clearly being wielded to diminish US standing in the world. See also: shutting down relatively inexpensive aid programs that feed hungry people all over the world. And shutting down pro-democracy broadcasting throughout the world.
Our adversaries have never had a better opportunity to jump in as heroes. Or even just, not assholes.
Destruction of soft power directly by the tool in charge.
US influence around the world went poof in a matter of weeks. Xi and Putin couldn't have planned it better.
How will US win with trade barriers? With them it can only secure the US market, and even this only provided the entire production chain is located in the US. Because you can forget about exporting goods weighted by trade tariffs - as you can see nobody accepts being tariffed without retaliating. So it can win, if you redefine the word "win".
> as you can see nobody accepts being tariffed without retaliating
I'm not defending our tariff strategy, but afaik this is actually the point being made that the US imports with low/no tariffs while US exports are tariffed in many countries.
It's not even that the labor is as cheap as it used to be but it's generally a very able and willing workforce with a labor structure where there are no qualms with automating parts of the process. The auto manufacturing race has already been lost in my opinion. Nobody is doing it as well or at the same scale as China.
In a completely free market, it's less clear. A lot of what Chinese companies do could be called dumping, and they're doing it with government support.
> A lot of what Chinese companies do could be called dumping
I'd be interested to read more about this claim, if you have a link/source.
Regardless, we desperately need to de-carbonize our transportation sector. If China is the only country willing to put the dollars in to actually do that, then they deserve to reap the benefits of the new energy economy they helped build. Economics of the cars themselves aside, any effort put in to minimizing the costs of climate change will pay for itself by the end of the century.
I've heard this said often, but is there any proof BYD is selling their cars at a loss? And note that I'm not saying R&D loss - is BYD ever selling a car below what it cost to make and sell that unit?
>A lot of what Chinese companies do could be called dumping, and they're doing it with government support.
European and American car makers have also gotten enormous support from their governments, except in other forms, like for example VW not being bankrupted to hell by the German government during Diesel gate for example.
Blaming Chinese manufacturing dominance on government subsidies or lack of environmental regulations or human rights violations or somesuch is simply delusional.
It is missing the forest for the trees. The core fact is that chinese manufacturing pays workers an average $25k/year ($15k before purchasing power adjusting!!) for a 49h week. Are american workers (or other westerners) willing to work for that? No. Are consumers actually willing to pay the difference? Probably also no.
I'm not saying that there are no problems with the above in China, but thats not where their manufacturing dominance comes from. On the other hand, their government did make a bunch of good decisions and they did provide a lot of the necessary prerequisites for local industry to thrive.
But longer term, rising wages are gonna affect them in the same way that they did US industry 60 years ago, and Japanese manufacturing 30 years ago. We have less local manufacturing now because we grew so rich and that is not the worst problem to have.
I don't know how if it's tariffs or something else, but the US has been preventing importing EVs from China for a long time. You cannot not notice all the Chinese EVs on the roads when traveling overseas. I always wondered why those cars don't make it to the US.
You forgot the total lack of enforcing even basic environmental regulations, the massive government subsidies (diect and indirect), Uyghur forced labor, etc.
And China is anything but a free market. In a truly free market, most Chinese carmakers wouldn't even exist. They mostly exist because Western carmakers were forced to form China dominated joint-ventures, share technology and ownership in order to enter the Chinese market.
The US has insulated the economic decision makers from consequences in the same way as centrally-planned economies like the USSR. We're seeing the same poor performance now.
For example, the tech sector spend the 2010s chasing dumb ideas like metaverse/vr, crypto, voice assistants, and so on. But it didn't lead to any shakeup or consequences for the people in charge. The same firms, investors, and executives were in power in 2020 after a decade of stagnation and failure. They are insulated from any upstart competition by strong monopolization and increasingly, capture of the state itself.
Hardly a surprise, the market is growing rapidly, so nothing strange that the first player is no longer the only player. Nevertheless it was Tesla that proved viability of EVs and has courage to create totally new market segment. We've seen this in the IT several times, Commodore, Atari, IBM (as a hardware producer, not consulting company as it is now) had their time coming up with a No 1. product and then others came.
Readit News
Maybe making a dumb triangular truck that nobody wanted wasn't such a good idea after all. I imagine the BYD cars have such mod cons as rain sensors that work and indicator stalks too.
https://www.gneenev.com/product/electric-cars-ev/484.html
In the US best selling Tesla is Model Y, but even without the brand damage I'm not sure that type of design/price is going to do well in the UK, and Cybertruck is not well suited to UK's narrower roads (esp. in city).
Also Flexbus running Chinese buses.
I'm baffled by the multiple levels of irony if you could go into Mexico and buy an EV that you can then use in the US. That would make even Elon's head twist off.
Now that US soft-power is waning (800b from EU + 500b from Germany alone for militech) the floodgates might open and it will way surpass the Tesla. Maybe even some partnership between BMW/VW/Daimler with BYD can come out of it - imagine that.
So it was to protect EU car manufacturers (which are still struggling a bit with EVs).
I don't think it was US "soft-power". However, the EU may impose tariffs on US produced cars as part of the coming trade-war, which may hurt Tesla in future (or maybe not as they also produce Tesla cars in Germany).
Dead Comment
Imagine a situation where you have a new 800V infrastructure already applied to cybertruck and decide to update the Model Y with just “minor” adjustments. Which means that both M3 and MY will get 800V/48V when? 2/3 years minimum.
It recalls me a Nokia moment.
Meanwhile China is running.
Change it to who?
Their price to earnings is like 100x. The entire market cap is built by Elon's non-stop hyping of FSD / Robo-Taxi / etc. We gunna resurrect Billy Mays here to do the marketing?
The entire executive office is just dumping their Tesla stock, they know the company has no value and if they get rid of Musk it's probably a nail in the coffin for the stock price.
It's already significantly off its peak, and Musk is now so unpopular because of his political interventions that people are firebombing Tesla dealerships and vandalizing the cars. I can't really see how that's going to be good marketing.
Not a good long term strategy.
Maybe that‘s the reason for Musk‘s turn into politics.
Use his power as long as it exists
[1]: https://youtu.be/U-h_wzxevok
Also, not sure what the whole 800v hype is about. I rent EVs for roadtrips and Tesla's are basically the fastest charging ones with current architecture, haven't had a need for 800v since at the cell level the charging speed is already maxed out.
Re: the Y, even though they won't sell because some hand gestures and behaviors, they did almost every complaint people have about the old model Y.
And there exist countries outside Tesla‘s supercharger network.
The US does not.
The only reason the US might win at car manufacturing will be if there are sufficient tariffs or other trade barriers. In a free market, China will win.
Our adversaries have never had a better opportunity to jump in as heroes. Or even just, not assholes.
Destruction of soft power directly by the tool in charge.
US influence around the world went poof in a matter of weeks. Xi and Putin couldn't have planned it better.
I'm not defending our tariff strategy, but afaik this is actually the point being made that the US imports with low/no tariffs while US exports are tariffed in many countries.
I'd be interested to read more about this claim, if you have a link/source.
Regardless, we desperately need to de-carbonize our transportation sector. If China is the only country willing to put the dollars in to actually do that, then they deserve to reap the benefits of the new energy economy they helped build. Economics of the cars themselves aside, any effort put in to minimizing the costs of climate change will pay for itself by the end of the century.
European and American car makers have also gotten enormous support from their governments, except in other forms, like for example VW not being bankrupted to hell by the German government during Diesel gate for example.
It is missing the forest for the trees. The core fact is that chinese manufacturing pays workers an average $25k/year ($15k before purchasing power adjusting!!) for a 49h week. Are american workers (or other westerners) willing to work for that? No. Are consumers actually willing to pay the difference? Probably also no.
I'm not saying that there are no problems with the above in China, but thats not where their manufacturing dominance comes from. On the other hand, their government did make a bunch of good decisions and they did provide a lot of the necessary prerequisites for local industry to thrive.
But longer term, rising wages are gonna affect them in the same way that they did US industry 60 years ago, and Japanese manufacturing 30 years ago. We have less local manufacturing now because we grew so rich and that is not the worst problem to have.
And China is anything but a free market. In a truly free market, most Chinese carmakers wouldn't even exist. They mostly exist because Western carmakers were forced to form China dominated joint-ventures, share technology and ownership in order to enter the Chinese market.
For example, the tech sector spend the 2010s chasing dumb ideas like metaverse/vr, crypto, voice assistants, and so on. But it didn't lead to any shakeup or consequences for the people in charge. The same firms, investors, and executives were in power in 2020 after a decade of stagnation and failure. They are insulated from any upstart competition by strong monopolization and increasingly, capture of the state itself.
https://crazystupidtech.com/archive/chinas-ev-boom-is-bad-fo...