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Toutouxc · 8 months ago
For me it was Musk. I had a finger on the trigger for an M3, which is an amazing car for the price, but then he just didn't know when to stop talking and I've sort of lost a lot of that enthusiasm. So now I'm waiting for the legacy brands to step up, which they unfortunately aren't really doing.
tirant · 8 months ago
In 2022 I bought my first EV, a BMW i4. It was an impressive am car and still is: second only to Tesla Model 3 when it comes to efficiency and superior to Tesla in terms of features and driving assistant systems.

BMW and Tesla both refreshed their i4 and Model 3 models las year. And the improvement in the Model 3 has been noticeable: better efficiency and range, also better driving dynamics and added features. BMW has barely changed anything, same motors and batteries, just a slightly newer infotainment system and new aesthetic. Not only that, some features are actually gone like the laser lights.

The FSD in the Tesla has improved also lots since 2022, while BMW Driving Assistant is still the same we had in 2022. Robust, but no new features.

I think Tesla is really doing a great job of improving their vehicles compared to legacy OEMs. I guess the i4 will only get real improvements with their next model in 2027.

regnull · 8 months ago
I had a model Y before, and after it became clear that I'm not extending my lease (thanks Mr. Musk), I test-drove a few alternatives, Mustang EV, IONIQ 5 & 6, etc. Ended up getting BMW I4, and man, this beats Tesla in every way. Yes, software might be not as perfect, but as a car to drive, it's so much better.
UniverseHacker · 8 months ago
I don't see any way for Tesla to survive as a company unless they can completely disconnect from Musk. In urban/leftist/yuppie circles- the only people that actually buy high end EVs new- it is socially taboo now to buy a Tesla, and the people already owning them are embarrassed, and hoping to get rid of them soon. The cybertruck is especially taboo and called names like the "incElCamino."

I think there is a big potential to capture the rural more right leaning market with EVs that have more range, offroad ability, and torque than ICE vehicles- but this will be done by brands like Jeep, Ford, and Scout through EVs with ICE range extenders that can operate outside of a charging network.

JeremyNT · 8 months ago
> I don't see any way for Tesla to survive as a company unless they can completely disconnect from Musk. In urban/leftist/yuppie circles- the only people that actually buy high end EVs new- it is socially taboo now to buy a Tesla, and the people already owning them are embarrassed, and hoping to get rid of them soon. The cybertruck is especially taboo and called names like the "incElCamino."

If you come to the richer southern cities the picture is very different than what you describe. I'm living in Nashville TN right now and there are Teslas everywhere. Many Republicans proudly have big lifted pickup trucks and Teslas (and a LOT of cybertrucks).

So while becoming an outspoken culture warrior may have cost Musk's brand some support in blue states, it has dramatically increased its appeal in "real America" where people love showing off their masculinity through their vehicles.

I suspect the Cybertruck will dominate the legacy auto makers in the EV pickup segment.

whamlastxmas · 8 months ago
It is beyond out of touch to not see how one of the most profitable and successful car companies of all time is going to survive. Tesla is doing amazing and isn’t slowing down.
pcardoso · 8 months ago
Same for me. The new model Y is sweet, even keeps the indicator stalk, but I can't buy one and knowingly be supporting Musk.

Keeping my diesel for a bit longer and eventually buy an EV from any another brand. EU, Korea, China, plenty of choice now.

coldpie · 8 months ago
Hyundai seems to be the top of the EV game currently. We went with an Ioniq 5. Unfortunately not a ton of EV sedan options out there, yet, but they're starting to come online, with stuff like the Ioniq 6.
floxy · 7 months ago
The Ioniq 5 has a low reliability according to Consumer Reports. Lower than their gas models. I suppose it is all the ICCU and 12V battery failures. Same story with the KIA EV6. I guess those ended up with better reliability than Rivian, for what it is worth.
msluyter · 8 months ago
You're not alone. Type "best ev that's" into Google and the first autocomplete will be "best ev that's not a Tesla."
r00fus · 8 months ago
I rented seven EVs this last summer (h/t Turo) and we ended up with a Kia EV6. Not a perfect car, but one my family loved more than the others. If we wanted something larger, the EV9 is also fantastic.

I'd recommend trying ones out and picking one. We're not at China-levels of EV options but many do exist at most price/luxury levels. Our other car is a Ford Focus EV which I wish they still sold (I got mine new for $20k about 7 years ago).

verdverm · 8 months ago
Ioniq 6 is an awesome alternative to the Model 3. I picked one up last fall and couldn't be happier
fullstop · 8 months ago
I looked at those as well, but the ICCU issues were enough to deter me. I do a fair amount of highway driving and the thought of suddenly dropping from highway speeds to 12 MPH was somewhat chilling.

Maybe they are not as common as it seems.

bekantan · 8 months ago
Any significant differences in charging experience? Can you use Tesla Supercharging network?
tvbusy · 8 months ago
So true. I'm selling my car to switch to an electric one and used to be really interested In Tesla.
rcarmo · 8 months ago
This is a sentiment I’ve had echoed across most of my techie friends. We probably relate more to what Musk says (and US politics towards the tech sector) than the average car buyer, and it is just a major turnoff.
pj_mukh · 8 months ago
Same, and now I'm actually leaning towards a Plug-in hybrid because the legacy brands are so bad (bad range, bad charging network).

What a monumental dissolution in brand. I can only hope its felt quickly enough by Tesla's bottomline so it can a) either be reversed, or b) be an example to future entrepreneurs.

P.S: a) could be accelerated with some demonstrated excellence in Tesla Autopilot, it's possible, that would bring me back.

lokimedes · 8 months ago
I was all set on a model-3, but found the quality lacking at the price. Bought a BMW 3-series hybrid at a comparable price, and is so happy about my choice. Their fully electric cars are fine too. With the dystopian turn of Musk, I will never consider a Tesla again.
hnburnsy · 8 months ago
So when the warranty expires, you have two separate engines that your dealer will be repairing.

https://bmwinsights.com/why-are-bmws-so-unreliable/

unshavedyak · 8 months ago
Same. I ended up picking up a Rivian, though until the R2 comes out that's a pretty big price to pay for personal beliefs.

I love the car though, quite happy. Hope they do well with the R2, Tesla could use some cheaper/modern competition.

fullstop · 8 months ago
I went with an Equinox EV. It's not outstanding in any particular area, but it's good in all of them. It drives like a car with a battery and not a battery with wheels.
Vaslo · 7 months ago
I doubt you did. You just don’t like Musk, and now you are larping as a Tesla buyer to make people think there is some big group that are going to punish Elon for not matching their views.

Outside far leftists, people are still buying and enjoying Teslas. The difficulties in Europe aren’t related to Elon’s politics, you just wish they were.

SideburnsOfDoom · 8 months ago
If the legacy brands don't step up very soon, the Korean and Chinese brands are doing so. Some should be on sale near you.
mulmen · 7 months ago
An M3 is a BMW. If you are talking about Teslas the car is called a Model 3. You can’t shorten it to M3 because that’s already a car. This is why a Musk didn’t get to call it Model E like he wanted to. It sounds too much like a Ford.
Toutouxc · 7 months ago
Among EV enthusiasts, M3 is absolutely a Tesla Model 3. I know what a BMW M3 is (there was a time when I really wanted one), and I understand how much of a petrolhead icon the car is, I just don't care anymore.

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EcommerceFlow · 8 months ago
You should get a Ford or Volkswagen, they have a much better track record.
hnburnsy · 8 months ago
Ummmmm, doors flying open at highway speed on ID 4 EV...

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/09/volkswagen-halts-id-4-p...

siliconc0w · 8 months ago
You can always get a used Tesla. I'm in a similar boat - FSD 13 looks really good and if it actually gets to 'personal driver' territory, it'd be hard not buy a Tesla.
rstuart4133 · 8 months ago
I spent a month in Germany a few years ago. The German government had put up some strong incentives to prompt the move to EV's. Germany has a large car manufacturing base, and those incentives meant every one of them had EV's.

Every German EV I saw was an ICE chassis retrofitted with batteries and an electric motor. For example they all had the hump intruding into the cabin space for the non-existent exhaust. Almost none had a frunk - it was needed for batteries or something. As a consequence the purpose built Tesla's were miles ahead. I had no idea why anybody bought these German EV's at time time, but it seemed like most Germans did.

If that's changed and Europeans making great EV's is what is driving down the sales of Tesla's then that is great news. But I live in Australia, and Tesla sales are having their edge taken off them here too. We don't make cars. There is one, and only country making a material dent in Tesla's EV sales. That is EV's from China. (Tesla's EV's sold here are also made in China, of course.) It's mostly because of price.

Despite the noise in the comments, I haven't met a single person who based their decision on Musk's personality. The things that tilt them towards other brands are price and a more conventional design (things like indicator stalks, displays in front of the driver, rain sensors that work). But these other brands are new, and meanwhile Tesla has very impressive service (BYD has suffered from widely publicised failures), an impressive charger network, and a track record. For now Tesla still dominates.

But the real story is China is made just about every EV sold here. The ICE's we import are made in a variety of places Japan, USA, Europe, and recently a few from China. But if this trend continues there will only be one country making the cars we import in 10 years time.

maeil · 8 months ago
While this is an oversimplification, my understanding is that it roughly goes like this;

BMWs are decent. Other European brands' EVs are a bit of a joke. Korean ones are solid. US big manufacturers are somewhere inbetween. The Hyundai Ioniq series is probably the best value for money on average for those who don't want a Tesla or Chinese EV.

ddalex · 8 months ago
Electric Volvos are super nice.
AlexandrB · 8 months ago
Tesla cars are really cheaply built. Putting every control on a touchscreen is a cost-saving measure. At the same time, Teslas are actually quite expensive to buy.

I think the target audience for this combo are people who love their iPads. I don't love my iPad - I want actual stalks and dials and knobs and buttons in my car so Tesla is not the car for me. In addition to the political intrigues others have mentioned I suspect that Tesla may be reaching the limit of "people who love their iPads" here.

7thaccount · 8 months ago
I'm in a similar boat. Touchscreens might look sleek, but it is dangerous in some ways as you can't adjust things without taking your eyes off the road. I do like the big backup camera though. I won't support Elon though, so Tesla is permanently a non-option for me now. The huge failure of the cybertruck also makes me wary of going that route as the number of videos showing the shoddy craftsmanship seems far too high.
Terretta · 8 months ago
I came to comments to make this point. Many of the EU manufacturers finally acknowledged the safety and usability of physical controls through research (aside from the customer clamor as customers realized touch screens weren't actually what they wanted), and EU pivoted. The physical controls EVs are now available.

USA didn't get the memo, or doesn't want to, thanks to differing corporate priorities and differing user persona preferences. USA manufacturers are (eventually) able to be influenced by customer outcry driving enough media to hit the independent dealer networks, but Tesla feels unlikely to do anything with the memo except file it in the circular bin.

Not sure about your "for people who love iPads" comment. I love my iPad Pro w/ Magic Keyboard + Magic Touch case and LTE modem, but get that crap out of my "control without looking" car experience. OTOH, I learned to drive in Europe.

okdood64 · 8 months ago
I love BMWs and I'm on my 4th one now.

> EU manufacturers finally acknowledged the safety and usability of physical controls through research

BMW is NOT reverting back to more physical controls. arguably their 2016 to 2024 cockpits (depending on model), iDrive 7, were the best.

Everything afterwards is a ginormous screen with very few physical controls outside of iDrive. The AC controls are the big one for me.

moogly · 8 months ago
> Putting every control on a touchscreen is a cost-saving measure

That is the meme. But at the same time, they put a (barely usable) rear passenger touchscreen in the back seat mid console on the Model 3 refresh, and now they're putting powered back seats in the Model Y refresh. There's no way that's cheaper than a few buttons/stalks here and there.

Is that something they're purely doing to try to catch the hearts and minds of the Chinese market? As I have been led to believe, for a lot of Chinese, the back seat is very important.

gazchop · 8 months ago
To be fair the model S wasn't like that the last time I drove one (hired 2022 model S). It's less of an iPad than the model 3 is. What is however terrible is none of the trim fits, the constant distractions and attention it requires and after driving a European car, it feels like I'm driving a Temu android tablet.

Hired Polestars since. Those just work, are put together properly and shut the fuck up when you're driving.

astrospective · 8 months ago
I love my iPad, but I’d still rather have knobs and buttons in my car, if I need to adjust it while driving I need to be able to find it without looking.
whamlastxmas · 8 months ago
Strong disagree, Tesla quality is great for the price
fullstop · 8 months ago
The competition is getting better and Musk is a very polarizing individual. None of this surprises me.
ddalex · 8 months ago
Given that Musk is actively working to undermine UE (L'Union européenne, EU in English, sorry for confusion), you'd have to be some kind of idiot to support him by buying a Tesla if you live in Europe.
tirant · 8 months ago
Actually I think Musk is doing the opposite:

Europe has since many years suffered with high bureaucracy, strict regulations and in general low innovation levels.

Musk has been very vocal about those issues in Europe. He might be right or wrong, but questioning European levels of bureaucracy and regulations is not undermining EU, it’s going to help it.

Gud · 8 months ago
Why? Many people dislike the European Union(myself included). Some of us believe it's an anti-democratic organization that should be dismantled. It hardly makes us idiots.

Additionally, not every European country is a member of the EU. I would argue Europe would be a lot better without such centralized power in the hands of a few.

misja111 · 8 months ago
I'm not a fan of Musk but you're getting his intentions wrong. He's not actively trying to undermine the EU. His recent support for AFD was actually meant, misguided or not, to support Germany. And his support for Tommy Robinson in the UK was because he apparently believes freedom of speech in the UK is in danger.
calciphus · 8 months ago
Not arguing, but what is UE in this context?
tim333 · 8 months ago
Musk is a bit odd re the UK. He goes on about the Starmer and the grooming scandal but it's all a bit distorted like he's getting his info from American MAGA enthusiasts on X and doesn't seem to have spoken to many Brits. A recent poll has 71% of Brits having a negative opinion of him https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/71-of-britons-hold-negative-...
pupppet · 8 months ago
The one drawback of civil discourse is feeling the need to use diplomatic language, even when it's not deserved. "Polarizing" is a term too good for Musk.
InsideOutSanta · 8 months ago
I'm in Europe, and I've seen Teslas with "bought it before he went crazy" stickers. I think the Venn diagram of people who want to buy electric cars, and people who dislike Musk's recent behavior, has a pretty big intersection.

And yeah, the competition is getting much better. I'm seeing a lot of Polestar cars recently, and even a lowly Fiat 500e now advertises 460km range.

drakonka · 8 months ago
I'm not really a car person but finding Teslas looking quite dated compared to other options, especially Polestar, in the roads these days. At one point you saw a Tesla and it had some kind of 'cool' factor by both reputation and aesthetics, but Musk has ruined the reputation and time + competition has ruined the aesthetics.
gazchop · 8 months ago
I'd buy a Polestar 2 if I had somewhere to charge it. I hired a few over the last couple of years. Basically an electric Volvo. Everything just worked and they aren't particularly expensive.
ChrisMarshallNY · 8 months ago
Some of the BMW electrics are amazing. I think they have been doing electric longer than Tesla.
diegoholiveira · 8 months ago
China is doing pretty well on EV.
code_for_monkey · 8 months ago
Musk tied himself so thoroughly to the brand and now hes tanking and taking the brand down with it.
niceice · 8 months ago
EV sales are down in Europe generally.

"Registrations of battery-electric cars declined by 9.5% to 130,757 units in November 2024. This drop was primarily driven by a significant decrease in registrations in Germany (-21.8%) and France (-24.4%)."

https://www.acea.auto/pc-registrations/new-car-registrations...

tedivm · 8 months ago
For comparison electric cars declined by 9.5% but Tesla declined by 40.9% at that same time. This is more than Tesla just following the general market trend.
belter · 8 months ago
This is about the market share of Tesla, a company with a PE of 112. Not about overall EV trends...

"...Year-to-date, Tesla registrations in the EU, EFTA and UK went down 13.7% from 327,635 units in 2023 to 282,692 units this year, while the market share shrunk from 2.8% to 2.4%. In the EU alone, which has 27 member states, Tesla’s market share went down from 2.6% in the first 11 months of last year to 2.2% this year..."

throwaway5752 · 8 months ago
From the article,

The automaker’s losses can be attributed to a number of factors, including the increasingly controversial attitude of its CEO, Elon Musk, and the decrease in government incentives. Some European states have reduced the amount of money offered toward the purchase of a new EV, while others have eliminated the incentives altogether.

That said, Tesla’s significant drop in European registrations has largely left the EV industry unaffected. Considering the sheer volume of electric cars sold by Tesla, EV registrations as a whole only went down by 1.4% in the EU, EFTA and UK from January to November and they actually went up 0.9% in November compared to last year. In the EU alone, EV registrations went down 5.4% year-to-date and 9.5% in November.

Symbiote · 8 months ago
If you fiddle with the pie chart graphic to show all Europe (EU + EFTA + UK), and January to November, the share of EVs has reduced very slightly, from 15.4% to 15.1%.

Hybrids have increased from 26.5 to 31.2%, petrol and diesel are down.

(It seems daft to concentrate on one month, or to count the number of cars rather than the share of cars sold.)

ZeroGravitas · 8 months ago
It's slightly up in Europe, your figures are for the EU which doesn't include strong EV markets the UK and Norway.
twilo · 8 months ago
Car sales in Europe are tanking generally
jansan · 8 months ago
I Germany car registrations were 1% down in 2024 compared to 2023. Tesla sold 41 percent fewer cars in Germany in 2024 compared to 2023.

Official data: https://www.kba.de/DE/Presse/Pressemitteilungen/Fahrzeugzula...

rcarmo · 8 months ago
Yeah, people are spending more guardedly (and have been since Ukraine started)
AnotherGoodName · 8 months ago
Different markets have different needs. I get that it may not matter for you but the removal of indicator stalks is a deal breaker in countries where you’re required to indicate both on and off roundabouts. Especially when those roundabouts are small. You have to first flick the stalk turn the wheel and flick the stalk while turning. Tricky even with a stalk but legally required and you will be ticketed in places for this.

I found it impossible to do with the tiny buttons on the steering wheel.

Everytime I mention this people argue the indicator buttons on the wheel are fine for them but it’s absolutely the reason I personally did not buy a Tesla. Different markets have different needs and the latest models don’t work in Europe.

I actually think they are dangerous and should be marked as unsafe given my own experience. You do risk a crash trying to find buttons on a tiny wheel.

eweise · 8 months ago
I didn't know this but agree. Cars should have some control standards so its easy to switch driving between them. Sounds really dangerous to have someone unfamiliar with Tesla unique controls, to be driving.
CamperBob2 · 8 months ago
Agreed that removing indicator stalks is asinine and should never have been permitted, but what on earth is the reason for signaling in a roundabout unless you are actively changing lanes in one?
AnotherGoodName · 8 months ago
Similar to the reason you signal at a 4 way when turning across traffic (in that case it prevents a deadlock of two non indicating idiots waiting for each other when if they both indicated they could both go simultaneously).

In the roundabout case it lets drivers know you’re exiting the roundabout and they can enter it. It makes traffic much more efficient but it does need to be enforced since it’s for the benefit of other drivers not yourself.

sjs382 · 8 months ago
Same as everywhere else: to signal your intent to change lanes or exit the roundabout.
lores · 8 months ago
You're indeed signaling that you are about to change lane or exit. People waiting to get in know that they can do so if you're in the outside lane, or that to the contrary they should not take the outside lane if you're inside.

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TrackerFF · 8 months ago
Model Y and 3 are still the most selling EVs here in Norway, but VAG cars have been catching up...fast. In 2023 Tesla vs VAG cars were roughly 25k vs 18k cars sold. Last year, it was 24k vs 21k. If the trend keeps up, VAG will outsell Tesla this year.

Source (though in Norwegian, use translate to read it): https://ofv.no/aktuelt/2025/nybilsalget-i-2024-9-av-10-nye-p...

Al-Khwarizmi · 8 months ago
In Spain Tesla has actually had a record year, with a huge lead in EV market share (26.5%, the second being BMW with 6.3%). But I think this is circumstancial and next year may be very different.

The purchasing power in Spain is considerably lower than in e.g. Germany or France, so very few people are buying VAG or Stellantis EVs as they are perceived as overpriced (and the brands themselves often don't seem to want to sell them, but I won't bore you with that). During most of 2024, the Model 3 made sense for a lot of people in Spain, since it was the only EV that wasn't perceived as a toy car (Dacia Spring) or too expensive (most Volkswagen, etc.). Basically for less money than what the likes of Volkswagen or Peugeot were offering, you got a car with vastly superior specifications (especially range). Hence, it was the best selling EV by far, in spite of widespread negative perception about Musk and about the lack of physical controls.

Things are changing fast, though. On the one hand, the traditional brands are catching up with attractive models with decent ranges at attainable prices like the Citroën ë-C3 or the Kia EV3. On the other hand, the Chinese have entered the market, and even with the EU tariffs, they have attractive options at various price points like the Leapmotor T03 or the BYD Dolphin. So now if you don't actually like Tesla's offering that much, there is no reason to buy it anymore.

Scarce data, of course, but in the first 12 days of 2025, the Dolphin is the best-selling EV followed by the EV3. The Model 3 is far behind so far.

amelius · 8 months ago
Turns out EVs are technologically much simpler than ICE cars. Anybody can make them. And so does China.
miohtama · 8 months ago
Batteries are not simple, but turns out China has also the best battery making talent in the world.

Meanwhile RIP Northvolt, the star of the EU.

UniverseHacker · 8 months ago
Battery cells are just a commodity EV makers can purchase- they don't need to be able to engineer them in house. There are a lot more parts on an ICE car that pretty much need to be engineered by the vehicle manufacturer.
verdverm · 8 months ago
SK & JP have battery talent as well
ddalex · 8 months ago
Electric LiPo cars are easier, GOOD electric lipo cars (with balanced chassis, good handling) are harder, but people don't realise that.