> The laptop is also prone to occasionally cooking itself in a bag and discharging the battery while "suspended". This might be a Linux problem not a Framework problem:
It's actually a Microsoft problem. They've crippled any kind of sleep in x86 because they want to be able to spy on you whilst the laptop is off.
Any laptop after 2013 is basically unusable.
The framework laptop is so bad compared to my MacBook that I basically never use it. As any time I put it in the bag the battery is dead the next day.
Same with Windows and Linux. No difference. The thing just will always die after a day.
I either use my MacBook or my T430 for which I can still buy replacement batteries They're the only kind of sane devices.
I hope Microsoft's push to ARM will fix all of this mess and we can leave this chapter of buggy Intel and AMD "laptop" crap behind us.
On Linux I've configured the OS to hibernate when I close the lid instead of sleeping. With today's SSD speeds, waking up from hibernation instead of sleep only adds 5-10s. Unless you're constantly opening and closing your laptop lid, that shouldn't affect your daily routine that much
Why would it be resolved by Microsofts Push to ARM if it's caused by Microsofts desire to spy on the user?
Also, the issue generally goes away as long as you detach the power connection before you're closing the lid, because the issue isn't actually caused by Microsoft.
They do want to spy on the users though, this just isn't an issue related to that.
At least Apple lets you turn it off. Go to Settings -> Battery -> Options and change "Wake for network access" from "Always" to "Only on power adapter" or "Never".
Same. Including weird audio clicks during supposed 'sleep' (already happend during heavy load while awake). Then one day this summer it just died without any recourse.
> > The laptop is also prone to occasionally cooking itself in a bag and discharging the battery while "suspended".
I've had this problem and updating the linux firmware packages to the kernel repo ones of all components fixed it 99.9% of the cases. It's an AMD though so ymmv.
Still want S3 sleep instead of fake-S3 aka S2-idle aka spy-sleep.
Not sure if I'm missing something, but the term "sleep" has never meant "power down" in Windows. It's just a lower power state that keeps all your applications running.
AFAIK you can still enable hibernation (which does actually power down the machine) in the control panel.
Completely agree. Google modern standby or hybrid sleep. Its terrible.
I just full hibernate or shutdown when going into a bag. This is as true for my work thinkpad, as it is for my personal razer as it is for our more family/general use framework 13 that is de facto my wifes computer.
As a kid I installed Ubuntu in the first laptop I ever owned. One day, I put it in my backpack. It probably woke up from sleep and got fried because it was unusable after that.
Last year I crunched my Framework laptop - basically bent the screen and the top shell badly enough that the screen was dead. Luckily I was able to purchase a new top shell and screen for ~$150 and replace it myself! I also popped in another stick of RAM while I had it open.
I am not sure that level of diy servicability is even possible with any other laptop!
Purism. I got shipped a dud screen and they told me to open it up and check all the cables, etc.
Then the battery died and I had to replace the motherboard - they shipped me a replacement (for not much) and I did the replacement myself. Kinds fun and very simple. All the screws and fasteners are standard and obvious.
I did that with my previous MBP (2015 15" retina). The lid cost a lot more but was quite easy to replace. Also I've replaced many many bits on thinkpads before for myself and other people.
I bought my Framework laptop and promptly moved to a country with a lesser species of human, if we were to use framework's logic, I assume. I mean, it wasn't until like last year they opened up deliveries to Taiwan, you know, the country where the thing is manufactured. Of course, europe, the US, you know, the countries with real people™, has had access to their marketplace since day one.
So, I've spent three years with a dying battery and bashed case, a warped screen shell, but I have no recourse. Honestly, it would have been better to buy an actual open source laptop that allows generic replacements, not one from their own store that, let's be real, will go kaput one day when the founder gets bored. The whole "diy serviceability" doesn't really square when you can't get your own parts.
> and promptly moved to a country with a lesser species of human, if we were to use framework's logic, I assume
I feel you.
I’ve been in your shoes, and I used to hold a similar grudge. But what I’ve realized lately is that selling products to foreign countries is a massively complex mess of tasks due to local laws and policies, which can be ridiculously counterintuitive. Vendors need time and money to learn all the pitfalls for each individual country and to figure out how to manage the remaining risk properly.
If Framework knew how to ship you a product without risking violating local regulations left and right, they would likely be happy to do so.
I have a Framework 13 (AMD 7640U), running Arch Linux, and overall it is nice. It is convenient to have an HDMI port again and I did not encounter issues with hardware. (Sleep drains the battery somewhat quickly over longer time periods, but I put it in hibernate anyway for that.)
However, the screen broke down after a few months and support initially refused to replace it, citing “customer induced damage”. As far as I can tell, this is both untrue and illegal (under German law, within 12 months after purchase all defects are presumed to be due to the original condition of the product, for which the seller is liable; that presumption can be overcome, but you would need some reason). They relented eventually, but it certainly soured my opinion on both the product and the company.
The 12th gen Framework supports both s2idle(s0ix) and deep(s3) sleep. I use s2idle, because it's the default.
$ cat /sys/power/mem_sleep
[s2idle] deep
At one point I did a quick comparison of the two and deep sleep performed a little better. I haven't attempted any tweaks to optimize that though, like eliminating sources of wakeups.
I haven't had sleep issues like the author describes. The difference may be that I run Fedora workstation which has a opinionated ootb experience and tracks the "stable" kernel, currently 6.10.
It could be a difference in usage too. I rarely use thunderbolt, for example.
> I didn't expect screen hinges to be the biggest annoyance.
it really depends on what you do with it
I'm perfectly fine with the hinge strength and wouldn't want to stronger hinges.
But I can see that it's quite sup-par if someone idk. frequently uses it in quite bump situations or cares a lot about the angle of the screen not changing when idk. carrying it open around with one hand maybe handling a kid with the other or similar. Like if I lift it besides the touch pat with one hand and shake it a bit it (without much force just a bit of up down "shaking") the screen will open/close (depending if it was more open or closed before). Through I thing I might have some of the very very early "even worse" hinges. (But then for my mostly in-homes use-case it really doesn't matter for me).
Wrt. the sleep issues it's pretty much the issues discussed recently i.e. not OS specific and hard for Framework to fix. I can't say too much about it as I default my setup to sleep-then-hibernate since many year so I never really cared about "long deep sleep" working well.
11gen intel framework has been mostly very good to me: but the reminder why linux desktop is ouch was inevitable :
Ubuntu 22.04 is stuck on a kernel version with bad intel driver for 11gen (after 6 months ago the problem was discussed on arch forums)
That is a fundamental flaw to me, that ubuntu ships known bad kernels to the world capable of complete UI lockup requiring force alt+prtscrn+REISUB
(ubuntu 24.04 upgrade just released and fails, but now instead of figuring out why, my eternal anger means i am going to have to spend lots of time learning these nix or "atomic" distros that prioritize being able to switch kernels "easier?")
Reasons like this are why I jumped ship to arch a long time ago. The amount of issues you get are about the same but they get fixed a heck of a lot quicker. And now flatpaks are popular I can use those for most applications without worrying that a random lib update isn't going to brick it, as would happen somewhat often for aur stuff.
I've played around with Fedora Silverblue and the like but there's still a lot of friction with entirely immutable distros, having to layer packages is a slow and painful, and setting up a consistent development environment is hard; I'm not entirely sure how I'm supposed to install dev tools in a toolbox and get my IDE environment from a flatpak to integrate with it. There's probably something I'm misunderstanding about how I'm supposed to set this up but a quick search at the time didn't lead to anything.
Regardless I'm mostly comfortable with sticking to arch for a bleeding edge distro and drivers, knowing that if I do get an issue it'll be fixed relatively quick, and always keeping linux-lts kernel handy along with timeshift backups if anything does cause major issues.
I concur with worbie, rolling release distributions are where it's at: it's the least painful way to use a desktop (reusing the famous phrase, they're the worst operating systems, except for all the others). I recently had issues with the latest kernel, but a) they were fixed within a couple of weeks, not a couple of years, and b) I simply installed linux-lts while fixes were being worked on and continued with my work.
I sent Framework a video much like the one showing floppy hinges in OP, and they shipped me replacements free of charge that I could swap myself in a couple of minutes.
An unfortunate production issue, but that and a screen issue (I can't quite remember, a dead row I think) made a nice early showcase of user serviceability for me.
I replaced my old Thinkpad T530 that has been my daily machine for software development (Python, Docker, Java, workflows, some HPC work) by a Framework 13 AMD about two months ago.
So far everything worked fine. I've limited the battery at 60% as I work with it plugged into power most of the time. I use earphones most of the time, but when I had to use the speakers they were alright.
Camera, keyboard, and trackpad are good too (better than what I've been using). And I haven't had any issues with the monitor hinges (not sure if lucky, or newer batches have the problem fixed).
Once my CPU fans got really excited with some containers and kernel upgrade running in parallel, and wouldn't go off. I restarted it (I had a decent number of tabs open too, to be honest), and then it quieted down.
I limit the CPU performance as I use it for programming (have IntelliJ, WebStorm, and PyCharm open at the same time sometimes, with Firefox with 20 to 40 tabs, and sometimes containers running in the background, and SSH connections to servers. Everything works fine. If I open Blender or something else like a game, then the fans definitely wake up and kick in.
But otherwise very quiet, and the performance is good enough for me. It came with the latest bios installed, and I had no issues installing drivers (Ubuntu 24.04, and using XFCE BTW, everything working OK). So, so far a happy user.
I really admire people that are willing to go the whole way to daily drive something like the MNT Reform or Linux+Framework. It definitely requires a certain dedication and commitment to a principal.
I always imagined myself as a Framework kind of guy, but I'm not sure I could bear that level of quality after using Microsoft Surface Books, Macbook Pros and now a Thinkpad professionally.
I really don't need bad hinges, weak USB ports, weird screen hinges or operating system worries.
The hinges were changed a long time ago and affected only the first generation laptops AFAIR.
> weak USB ports
Never had these issues. But the ports are little modules you just slide out and replace by sliding in. No screwdriver necessary. I have seen bad USB ports on laptops you had to re-solder if not placed on a separate board ...
> operating system worries
Well, Linux remains Linux. You can run Windows, too. But Framework has fully-fledged Ubuntu support and even provides UEFI firmware updates via the Linux vendor firmware service. I had one for my Framework 13 AMD (although no UEFI related problems as far as I was aware) and the update worked like charm.
I've been using just Ubuntu and a framework for the last two years and like it. I don't know if it required much commitment. After 10 years on Ubuntu I can't stand Windows and find it much harder to use.
Readit News
It's actually a Microsoft problem. They've crippled any kind of sleep in x86 because they want to be able to spy on you whilst the laptop is off.
Any laptop after 2013 is basically unusable.
The framework laptop is so bad compared to my MacBook that I basically never use it. As any time I put it in the bag the battery is dead the next day.
Same with Windows and Linux. No difference. The thing just will always die after a day.
I either use my MacBook or my T430 for which I can still buy replacement batteries They're the only kind of sane devices.
I hope Microsoft's push to ARM will fix all of this mess and we can leave this chapter of buggy Intel and AMD "laptop" crap behind us.
I don't understand why all vendors are actively trying to kill S3 sleep. It doesn't make any sense.
Also, the issue generally goes away as long as you detach the power connection before you're closing the lid, because the issue isn't actually caused by Microsoft.
They do want to spy on the users though, this just isn't an issue related to that.
If not, turn off "Power Nap" (https://support.apple.com/en-ie/guide/mac-help/mh40774/mac - the option is, annoyingly, kinda hidden.)
I've had this problem and updating the linux firmware packages to the kernel repo ones of all components fixed it 99.9% of the cases. It's an AMD though so ymmv.
Still want S3 sleep instead of fake-S3 aka S2-idle aka spy-sleep.
AFAIK you can still enable hibernation (which does actually power down the machine) in the control panel.
I just full hibernate or shutdown when going into a bag. This is as true for my work thinkpad, as it is for my personal razer as it is for our more family/general use framework 13 that is de facto my wifes computer.
Still holding a grudge on Linux for that one.
When we came back, the laptop had partially melted and burnt through the glass table underneath it... pretty scary stuff.
Source?
I am not sure that level of diy servicability is even possible with any other laptop!
Then the battery died and I had to replace the motherboard - they shipped me a replacement (for not much) and I did the replacement myself. Kinds fun and very simple. All the screws and fasteners are standard and obvious.
Why would anyone do business with them?
https://www.ifixit.com/repairability/laptop-repairability-sc...
https://pcsupport.lenovo.com/us/en/products/laptops-and-netb...
No official videos for newest models, but not as easy as a framework, IMO.
Framework Display https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Display+Replacement+Guide/86
(If you needed to replace the top cover as well: https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Top+Cover+Replacement+Guide/...)
Also, no options to swap the RAM in a MBP after 2012.
while still fitting within the frame and so on
So, I've spent three years with a dying battery and bashed case, a warped screen shell, but I have no recourse. Honestly, it would have been better to buy an actual open source laptop that allows generic replacements, not one from their own store that, let's be real, will go kaput one day when the founder gets bored. The whole "diy serviceability" doesn't really square when you can't get your own parts.
I feel you.
I’ve been in your shoes, and I used to hold a similar grudge. But what I’ve realized lately is that selling products to foreign countries is a massively complex mess of tasks due to local laws and policies, which can be ridiculously counterintuitive. Vendors need time and money to learn all the pitfalls for each individual country and to figure out how to manage the remaining risk properly.
If Framework knew how to ship you a product without risking violating local regulations left and right, they would likely be happy to do so.
On the other hand, you have a great point about "DIY serviceability" being useless if you can't get parts for a reasonable price.
However, the screen broke down after a few months and support initially refused to replace it, citing “customer induced damage”. As far as I can tell, this is both untrue and illegal (under German law, within 12 months after purchase all defects are presumed to be due to the original condition of the product, for which the seller is liable; that presumption can be overcome, but you would need some reason). They relented eventually, but it certainly soured my opinion on both the product and the company.
Also, sleep issues. Any more insight? Is this related to the S3/S0ix issue discussed recently? https://blog.jeujeus.de/blog/hardware/laptops-will-not-sleep...
I haven't had sleep issues like the author describes. The difference may be that I run Fedora workstation which has a opinionated ootb experience and tracks the "stable" kernel, currently 6.10.
It could be a difference in usage too. I rarely use thunderbolt, for example.
it really depends on what you do with it
I'm perfectly fine with the hinge strength and wouldn't want to stronger hinges.
But I can see that it's quite sup-par if someone idk. frequently uses it in quite bump situations or cares a lot about the angle of the screen not changing when idk. carrying it open around with one hand maybe handling a kid with the other or similar. Like if I lift it besides the touch pat with one hand and shake it a bit it (without much force just a bit of up down "shaking") the screen will open/close (depending if it was more open or closed before). Through I thing I might have some of the very very early "even worse" hinges. (But then for my mostly in-homes use-case it really doesn't matter for me).
Wrt. the sleep issues it's pretty much the issues discussed recently i.e. not OS specific and hard for Framework to fix. I can't say too much about it as I default my setup to sleep-then-hibernate since many year so I never really cared about "long deep sleep" working well.
That is a fundamental flaw to me, that ubuntu ships known bad kernels to the world capable of complete UI lockup requiring force alt+prtscrn+REISUB
(ubuntu 24.04 upgrade just released and fails, but now instead of figuring out why, my eternal anger means i am going to have to spend lots of time learning these nix or "atomic" distros that prioritize being able to switch kernels "easier?")
I've played around with Fedora Silverblue and the like but there's still a lot of friction with entirely immutable distros, having to layer packages is a slow and painful, and setting up a consistent development environment is hard; I'm not entirely sure how I'm supposed to install dev tools in a toolbox and get my IDE environment from a flatpak to integrate with it. There's probably something I'm misunderstanding about how I'm supposed to set this up but a quick search at the time didn't lead to anything.
Regardless I'm mostly comfortable with sticking to arch for a bleeding edge distro and drivers, knowing that if I do get an issue it'll be fixed relatively quick, and always keeping linux-lts kernel handy along with timeshift backups if anything does cause major issues.
https://ubuntu.com/kernel/lifecycle
I concur with worbie, rolling release distributions are where it's at: it's the least painful way to use a desktop (reusing the famous phrase, they're the worst operating systems, except for all the others). I recently had issues with the latest kernel, but a) they were fixed within a couple of weeks, not a couple of years, and b) I simply installed linux-lts while fixes were being worked on and continued with my work.
Ubuntu's fuck-up aside, it's really trivial to compile yourself a kernel, even one that gets wrapped in a .deb package [1].
[1] https://kernel-team.pages.debian.net/kernel-handbook/ch-comm...
An unfortunate production issue, but that and a screen issue (I can't quite remember, a dead row I think) made a nice early showcase of user serviceability for me.
So far everything worked fine. I've limited the battery at 60% as I work with it plugged into power most of the time. I use earphones most of the time, but when I had to use the speakers they were alright.
Camera, keyboard, and trackpad are good too (better than what I've been using). And I haven't had any issues with the monitor hinges (not sure if lucky, or newer batches have the problem fixed).
Once my CPU fans got really excited with some containers and kernel upgrade running in parallel, and wouldn't go off. I restarted it (I had a decent number of tabs open too, to be honest), and then it quieted down.
I limit the CPU performance as I use it for programming (have IntelliJ, WebStorm, and PyCharm open at the same time sometimes, with Firefox with 20 to 40 tabs, and sometimes containers running in the background, and SSH connections to servers. Everything works fine. If I open Blender or something else like a game, then the fans definitely wake up and kick in.
But otherwise very quiet, and the performance is good enough for me. It came with the latest bios installed, and I had no issues installing drivers (Ubuntu 24.04, and using XFCE BTW, everything working OK). So, so far a happy user.
I always imagined myself as a Framework kind of guy, but I'm not sure I could bear that level of quality after using Microsoft Surface Books, Macbook Pros and now a Thinkpad professionally.
I really don't need bad hinges, weak USB ports, weird screen hinges or operating system worries.
The hinges were changed a long time ago and affected only the first generation laptops AFAIR.
> weak USB ports
Never had these issues. But the ports are little modules you just slide out and replace by sliding in. No screwdriver necessary. I have seen bad USB ports on laptops you had to re-solder if not placed on a separate board ...
> operating system worries
Well, Linux remains Linux. You can run Windows, too. But Framework has fully-fledged Ubuntu support and even provides UEFI firmware updates via the Linux vendor firmware service. I had one for my Framework 13 AMD (although no UEFI related problems as far as I was aware) and the update worked like charm.
I kid, of course, but there is some truth in there, I do feel good about my own privacy focus, the sense of control, etc.
Anyway, greetings from the moral high ground, it's nice up here.