You can remove "fast-" from the headline and the first sentence is still true, but it's hard not to justify the expense of eating at all. I tend to go multiple years between eating at a restaurant of any kind, and buy my food in grocery stores. But I still feel the sticker shock. Eggs, beef, fish are particularly outrageous, but the large price increases are everywhere. It's cliche to notice how much a few bags of groceries costs now but when I'm walking out of the store with two small bags for $200+, I notice.
So when you abandon fast food and change to preparing your own, it will help but less than you might hope.
> but when I'm walking out of the store with two small bags for $200+, I notice.
I do all of the shopping and cooking for my family. I understand your general point, but I’m having a very difficult time understanding how you could get to a $200 bill with “two small bags”. I don’t think I could get there without loading up on expensive steaks and seafood.
I normally purchase a lot of vegetables and fruits and some meat. There’s no way I could get to $200 total with a number of bags I could carry in my hands, even in a HCOL area.
I'm carnivore. Medium priced meats: chuck roasts, beef shank, salmon, chicken thighs. Butter, eggs. Huge supermarket chain in a small town. That market basket has particularly inflated. I buy most meat in bulk and I'm back to buying at the grocery after half a year of eating a single cow and a lamb, so a lot of it hit me at once.
>So when you abandon fast food and change to preparing your own, it will help some but less than you might hope.
While true, there are many people who cannot do this because they work 16+ hours per day. And if they have children it is even more difficult.
To me, this points to the fact people in the US are not being paid a "living" wage. I even heard Walmart will help new employees apply for food stamps, that is sick because we are subsidizing the owners of Walmart and their stockholders.
> While true, there are many people who cannot do this because they work 16+ hours per day. And if they have children it is even more difficult.
Whenever I read these comments I feel like people either grew up in an alternate reality than I did, or they get their perception of poor people from the hyperbole on Reddit.
People who grew up in poverty and work two full time jobs aren’t the ones feeding their families with fast food for 2-3 meals per day. They’re the ones who are experts at cheap cooking, crockpot meals, and cheap meals at home.
Reading comments like this that hit a checklist of cliche bullet points (being “forced” to feed your family with fast food, parent who works 16+ hour days, using Walmart as the canonical American job, mentioning the anecdote about Walmart instructing people about how to apply for assistance) I suspect the experience is more of a conglomeration of talking points from politicians and Reddit rather than real experience.
I don't see how going to a fast food place saves you time: it takes significant time going to the fast food place, waiting in line, driving home. And at home you can multi-task--while waiting for the food to cook you can put the laundry in the washing machine, sweep the floor...large numbers of household tasks.
In a wealthy first world country, it's very difficult to pay a living wage while also keeping prices low. Prices of things we buy are very sensitive to labor costs, so low income earners find themselves on a treadmill where their wage increases get eaten up quickly by cost increases.
The solution would be something like wage crush from the top. The mass of this change wouldn't come from billionaires or the 1%, they are a drop in the bucket compared to the 50-90%.
There are tons of "average" people who got absolutely stacked in the last 5 years. Especially here on HN. They won't raise their hand, it's pretty taboo in this environment, but consumer spending and unrelenting housing prices make it very clear which social classes are fucked and which ones are richer than ever. And it's not billionaires and everyone else.
> I tend to go multiple years between eating at a restaurant of any kind
Man, not to derail from the topic, but it never ceases to amaze me how varied our lifestyles can be. My wife and I have always loved going out to eat at restaurants, it would be a strange week where we didn't go out at least once.
Going years between restaurants, including fast food, is pretty extreme. But if I leave out travel, eating even takeout is a maybe a twice a month sort of thing. I could certainly afford to do so more often but I mostly can’t be bothered and there aren’t a lot of great options around where I live and plenty of options to prepare a 20 minute meal at home.
The mainstream just hasn't caught up to the varied choices the world offers to individuals now, and that makes the bell curve seem a lot more flat than it actually is.
Not all food. Bananas are the same price they've always been, for example. Store brands have inflated less than name brands. Mom and Pop restaurants have inflated a lot less than chains and can now be cheaper than McDonald's.
That was the case for a while, but hasn't been for quite a while in the US. Food at home has been one of the factors bringing down the inflation rate for more than a year. The most recent data release shows only a 1.2% increase in the last year. It's true that food at home has risen by 25% since the start of the pandemic, but that was driven by what happened in 2021 and 2022.
Inflation on food away from home has come down quite a bit as well, but its inflation rate is still above 4%. At "limited service" food establishments (fast food), the inflation rate is well above 5%.
One can make nutritious under $4/meal on organic WholeFood prices when sticking to raw materials, i.e. not prepared foods. Those with access to a yard in the right climates can improve on that with some garden beds (herbs & leafy greens have a good return). So I think that really depends on what you're purchasing at the store.
Fast food chains have the benefit of scale but they still have margins to make. That food is rarely healthy so you're also increasing your long term healthcare costs by going that route.
I believe that a major issue here is that many of the younger people in the US haven't gained the skills to cook for themselves. With those skills comes efficiency and the ability to reduce waste. For those working low wage jobs (of which I was for about a decade), time spent on cooking has a higher value than say a knowledge worker who can pick up some contract work on upwork.
I feel we've grown far too used to cheap food in the US. Particularly meat which relies on consolidation into large operations that require antibiotic use, cheap labor in poor conditions, and questionable practices in processing and livestock welfare. So yeah, perhaps that happy meal should cost more?
> One can make nutritious under $4/meal on organic WholeFood prices when sticking to raw materials, i.e. not prepared foods. Those with access to a yard in the right climates can improve on that with some garden beds (herbs & leafy greens have a good return)
I agree that cooking can be done cheaply, but I never recommend gardening as a way to get cheaper food. I say this as someone who gardens a lot and enjoys it.
Gardening is fun if you enjoy it, but it’s not a realistic option for lowering food prices. It’s definitely not a solution to high food prices. It’s a hobby.
But you’re right: Even shopping at Whole Foods in a HCOL area it’s trivially easy to prepare reasonably priced meals. I don’t understand what some of these commenters are buying with claims of $200 for “two small bags” of groceries. I don’t think I could accomplish that without loading up on expensive beef, cheeses, and seafood.
That sounds odd, do you buy particularly expensive ingredients? I'm not in the US, but I prep my own meals with average quality ingredients. Not accounting for the extra time that it takes (which amortizes well with meal prep), I probably spend between 1/4th and 1/3rd as much as I would spend if I were to eat a similar meal at a restaurant.
> That sounds odd, do you buy particularly expensive ingredients?
Yes. Far more expensive than the cheap ingredients like the flours and oils of fast food. I focus on making my food as nutritionally dense as possible, which ain't cheap. But I ate a lot more than my share of fast-food first and did a lot of damage with it. I'm positive I'd be dead if I didn't change. That would certainly be a lot cheaper.
Agree. I don't tip myself. And abundant portions at home are easy left-overs. And often the ingredients are not completely consumed by one meal and so amortize across a number of meals.
I think if you run the real numbers, eating at home is still a huge savings. And this allowing that you are probably using higher quality ingredients.
I agree with your assessment of walking out of a grocery store with two bags costing ~$200. I went to Canada to see the eclipse and was absolutely shocked how cheap it was to go to the grocery store. Not only was the currency conversion in my favor, the prices were reasonable and aligned to what I remember from pre-pandemic times. $200 Canadian had a completely full cart. Americans are absolutely being price-gouged.
> $200 Canadian had a completely full cart. Americans are absolutely being price-gouged.
This is baffling for two reasons:
1. Canada currently has massive inflation problems. Housing prices are out of control. Groceries are expensive. Maybe you went to a small town somewhere and shopped as cheaply as possible, but your experience isn’t common.
1. I go to Costco in the US every week and fill the massive cart (bigger than your grocery store cart) for around $200. If you can’t fill a normal grocery store cart for $200 then you’re either in an extremely HCOL area or you’re shopping for expensive things.
> I went to Canada to see the eclipse and was absolutely shocked how cheap it was to go to the grocery store. Not only was the currency conversion in my favor, the prices were reasonable and aligned to what I remember from pre-pandemic times. $200 Canadian had a completely full cart.
Wait, what? As a Canadian I can assure you this is not the case. It is so much different than what you are saying that our generally passive population has undertaken a month long boycott of our largest grocer to protest the outrageous pricing. When I see American prices on social media, I am shocked at how much cheaper prices are, even with currency conversion.
Inflation, plus a pinch of good old corporate greed. In europe most money since first covid came lost at least 20% of its value (so if somebody claims their property gained cca same amount of worth, it just kept its value). Holding money really seems to be most stupid thing to do with them.
Big retail chains were making record profits, raised prices, offloaded most of risk elsewhere, and didnt correct once covid became another meh.
You can add travel cost there, folks went mental with traveling after restrictions were dropped, and so far dont seem to slow down.
I started mentoring college students several years ago. I’ve been stunned by some of their spending habits. Many of them are just not price sensitive at all, even when they should be.
Many will complain about how expensive fast food is, but then brag that they refuse to learn how to cook. Some will complain about how expensive fast food is, then talk about going to Five Guys or other expensive fast food places multiple times per week. It’s strange to hear someone complain about how they can’t afford their daily Starbucks any more, yet they continue getting it every single day.
I don’t know what happened. I didn’t go to college all that long ago, but even then it was rare to see someone drinking daily expensive coffees and fast food was more of a treat than a meal plan.
Now I hear college students complaining about how expensive their DoorDash was on a regular basis, which blows my mind as an adult who could afford DoorDash but avoids it because it’s so expensive.
It’s like supply and demand suddenly broke because a lot of people started downplaying the price factor into their decision making. I don’t know what it is. Maybe the way we’ve let people load up on $100K of loans at the beginning of adulthood and the payments are delayed until much later? I’ve witness multiple conversations where students wonder if they could get more student loans to help free up their budget to buy brand new cars or really nice apartments or even vacations. For some, it’s like a magic money faucet that unlocks whatever they want, and the consequences haven’t even begun to arrive yet because they haven’t graduated. I really worry about the downstream effects this has on perceptions about budgeting and how expensive things are. When you’ve just been given a $100K loan but haven’t received a bill yet, that $15 burger seems like nothing.
I grew up in the 60's and 70's in a middle-class family. Moms generally didn't work until maybe the mid 70's. In my family, there was no "allowance" and no extra money, so anything we (kids) wanted, we had to work for: babysitting and mowing yards starting at 12, working at a grocery store at 15 (I remember because my mom had to drive me to work), etc. You want a new bike, you save for it and buy it. I started working at 12 and never stopped until I took a breather in my early 30's and could afford to not work a few months.
It seems to me that many kids of the last couple of middle-class generations were raised in 2-income families that could be more generous with their kids. My nephews for example didn't work much until their 20's, didn't work during college (only summers), had nicer cars, went on vacations, etc.
I know "kids" who are now 30, working at restaurants or bars, sharing apartments, maybe don't have a car, are walking to work, and use DoorDash because they don't have a car to get food and/or groceries (they don't know how to cook either, because never learned while growing up).
Way different upbringings. A lot of young adults who do have money don't want kids because they are used to having and spending money and are smart enough to realize that kids will greatly cramp their lifestyle. The ones who are struggling know they can't afford kids: they're barely staying afloat themselves.
I mentioned to a coworker I'm not rich enough to use my credit card, or even debit card, for everything. People tend to spend more using credit vs cash (0,1). Anecdotally, I noticed the same thing when I was younger, and since switching to cash for all in-person expenditures, my partner noticed, and mentioned, the same thing. I think most college students would concur, if they gave cash a chance for a few months, and I think being raised on exclusively credit cards leads to bad financial habits.
I think Visa and other private financial institutions are aware of this affect, and attempt to drive social change and expectations through legislation, advertising, sly dealings to ensure terminal ubiquity, and sweetheart media coverage painting cash as outmoded.
Cash makes a real difference for me when budgeting. And I should leave it at that before this becomes half rant, half anti-creditcard manifesto.
> "The whole conceit was that you were getting some OK-level of food for a low price and you could get it quick," Roberts said. "Now I can't justify the expense. If I'm paying $15 for a burger and fry and drink and it's McDonalds quality, forget about it — I'm going home."
My n=1 - I live in a pretty upscale American city, and ~$15 will get you a very nice burger and fries (no drink) at some of the most upscale restaurants in town. Pay attention to their Happy Hours, and it's more like $11 or $12 (so you could add a soft drink). A huge portion of meaty lamb roganjosh & rice at my favorite Indian take-away is $16. Why would anyone ever want to go near a McDonalds?
There was a time when ~$3 could get you two very average 450kCal burgers from McDonald’s. One could hypothetically survive off $6/day. Less if you were in a cheap state.
This is the experience people are disappointed about missing; McDonald’s was never about the big ticket combos, it’s always been about the value deals which couldn’t be found anywhere else. I worked for three years at a Canadian McDonald’s, week after week our most popular sandwiches were the McDouble and Junior Chicken, each coming in at $1.46 CDN after tax. Now they’re both $4.50 after tax, roughly a 300% increase in the span of 10 years. People are right to be upset: the entire category of ultra-cheap-takeout is being swept out from under them with McDonald’s being just one of many companies following the same trend.
A good burger will run you $25 in Boston. Wages are generally higher, but still. It's kind of insane. That being said, I noticed probably even 10+ years ago that fast food prices were a pretty bad deal.
I live in the Greater Boston area and you can still find decent meals for say $18 takeaway. I saw the chart on reddit and can't find it right now but McDa prices effectively doubled in the last 5ish years. Many fast food places way outpaced inflation.
It makes almost no sense to go fast food. Cava is about $12-13 out the door. It's even crazier on the west coast where in and out exists. I don't understand how McDs exists and since its significantly more liked than Burger King, even in a HCOL area, I don't see how they make money.
Boston's food prices are pretty nutty. I've been here for almost a month and a lot of things here are outrageously expensive. I'm not even talking about food that tourists are meant to eat, but just everyday basics. The funny thing too is that there's so many college kids here that the price of a mere burger seems like a low-level swindle to capitalize off the proliferation of student debt and gimmies from Late Boomer (Gen X) parents.
> Why would anyone ever want to go near a McDonalds
Depending on the franchisee, it's often one of the only late night options in town, giving sustenance to the stoners and post-drinks drunchies of the world.
They also got in on the drive-thru cafe concept before Starbucks figured it out, thus a lot of people became accustomed to going to their local "McCafe" in the morning. Never had their coffee, but I've heard it's not half bad to at least being acceptable. Oddly enough, public opinion seems way more divided on the quality of Starbucks than that of McCafe.
It's funny that restaurant burger prices in my EU country are basically the same as in your "upscale American city". I thought everything there was more expensive since the higher percentiles of your salaries are so much higher.
North America has a unified agriculture market amongst Mexico, US, and Canada - drastically simplifying logistics.
The EU has a similar setup, but 26 countries still adds some overhead versus 3 countries with some form of a "Commerce Clause". It makes sense though - a Polish farmer probably can't compete with a Dutch farmer at scale due to less capital to invest in relatively expensive automation or larger operations.
At least you aren't paying East Asian prices for a lot of produce.
Don’t forget to factor tip and taxes into your prices. Without those it’s difficult to actually compare them to countries that actually show the final price.
McDonalds is a great place to hang out. It’s well-lit, down to earth, not too loud or quiet, you can serve yourself drinks, and meet people from all walks of life in there.
This applies to Burger King also: both franchises have (usually) hidden away on their discount menus small 'classic' hamburgers: small burger and bun, pickles, mustard, and ketchup. They are very inexpensive (usually, but may depend on individual places).
There little classic burgers remind me of when I was a kid, and I enjoy them. Two of them makes a light meal.
I am in my 70s and very well off financially, but it makes me feel bad to see a young family in front of me doing custom orders for adults and kids, and run up a bill much more than going into a non-franchise locally owned restaurant and getting a real meal.
Another tip for older people: Burger King offers a $1 large cup of coffee to seniors but you have to ask for it.
Whataburger (a Texas regional chain) has (or at least they still did as of a year or so ago when I last ordered one) one of those basic burgers and I don’t believe it’s even on the menu - you just have to know about it. But I like their name for it - the “justaburger”; it’s just a burger.
Ann Arbor locals generally don't compare The Gandy Dancer or Weber's to Applebee's.
I'll assume that you are not from this area?
(Admittedly, you can spend $29 on a burger at West End Grill. Though that's not with fries, but their excellent sautéed vegetables, and choice of soup or salad. And if you're dining there, I'd really suggest spending a bit more to get their smoked duck.)
> Roberts, 38, now only gets fast food "as a rare treat".
I feel that that is it should be? When I was young it was important enough to mention at the monday class circle if your grandparents had taken you to visit the Golden Arches and everyone would be very jealous.
Growing up in the 80's, I got fast food (McD's, Pizza Hut) maybe once every two or three weeks. I got to go to a "nice" restaurant perhaps twice a year.
My parents however, left us with a Tombstone pizza or Swanson's TV dinner three times per week when they went out to dinner.
I have a personal rule that if I can remember the last time I ate fast food, it's too soon to eat it again. That seems to space it out to no more than a handful of times a year, and I agree that seems to be about the oftenest I would like it to be.
Growing up poor (mom was single, working as a secretary in the 1970's trying to support two small kids) Shakey's pizza offering free drinks on Tuesday nights (if you ordered a large pizza and brought in a coupon) was our special night out.
Fast food has never been "normalized" for me and I think that is a good thing.
For an entire family, maybe so, but let's not confuse fast food for that rare gourmet meal experience.
It's niche is good value convenience food for those on-the-go, and cheap enough for kids parties etc.
If it's now premium prices, local options are likely to be way better. I mean I'm not in US, but there's absolutely no way I'm paying $12 for a mcdonalds quarter-pounder-and-cheese - I remember them being famously under $1 and thus a great car snack on the way to a meeting or whatever.
And in case this is their intent, I really don't think the chivas regal effect can apply in this case - that's reserved for when the average punter can't really discern quality.
I don't disagree from a nutrition standpoint, but the very American innovation of cheap food arriving at your table fast now being seen as too expensive isn't a good sign from an economical perspective. This is like saying that if gas hit $10 that it's actually a good thing since people should drive less anyway. Like, yeah, but that's really not the key issue. Maybe the word orthogonal is what I'm looking for here?
What is hard for me to justify on a routine basis is delivery. It ends up being $20 for half of a meal even when I go with cheap fast food. So I always want more food than that, which will be $30+ easily. For one person, from the least expensive restaurants.
I guess it's different if I have a "real" contract. But right now I am trying to save "runway" for my current "startup" and it seems like opening DoorDash more than once or twice a month is a pretty bad idea.
From my perspective, food delivery apps have always been in the category of an extreme luxury, and I’m still somewhat shocked how many people seem to consider them as something to use on a regular basis.
I find them useful for placing an order in advance if I really want takeout, but then I go pick it up (I know there are still fees involved when ordering through an app, but I’ll often use the app just for the menu and call the restaurant directly to place the order). At that point I’m usually ready for a break in whatever I’m doing anyway.
But for people who order regularly, being able to cook and feed yourself is an essential life skill that should not be replaced by getting food delivery all the time.
re: "From my perspective, food delivery apps have always been in the category of an extreme luxury":
Of course it is! I am in my 70s and well off financially and I only use food delivery in the rare event both my wife and I are ill at the same time.
I find it a pleasure to run out to get takeout food, or more usually stop by my local produce store or local market and get something to make dinner. I am a very busy person, and at the end of each day I have never had enough time to do everything I wanted to do that day, but still spending 20 minutes to get food, a little more time to cook a tasty meal (or more rarely get take out food) just seems like one of the basic enjoyable things in life not to be missed.
Is this a generational thing? Do younger people just not enjoy going to a farmer's market, to a local health food store, cook, etc.? I am not being judgmental, just curious.
Some traditional city delivery services like the local Chinese restaurant may be somewhat reasonable but I have literally never used one of the app-enabled delivery services nor been tempted to do so. I feel like there are a bunch of basically luxury services that have been normalized.
I would love to see the actual stats on what people are doing instead. Like, are they getting more takeaway from other places, because the prices are closer now? Or are they biting the bullet and cooking at home? There might be a few people who are just eating less often, but I can't imagine that's happening at high enough numbers to account for the change.
I justified fast food to myself for a long time, telling myself I didn't have the bandwidth to plan meals, cook them, etc., and certainly not on busy days.
I don't remember where I found the idea, but eventually I ended up with two 2-week meal plans. I saved those grocery lists on the "to-go" order list for the grocer that's on my way home, and once every other week, I stop in and some nice employee brings the food out to my car. It doesn't even cost extra to have them do the shopping. For $15, they'd even bring it to my doorstep.
It does mean spending 3 hours every other weekend prepping the meals for the two weeks (it can be done in three 1-hour slots if it needs to), but then all I do at any given meal time is pull a jar out of the fridge, reheat it, and eat it. Most of the meals are fine cold too, just slightly less enjoyable. I have a little insulated lunchbox I put the food in if I think I might not be home at mealtime.
It took a little iterating, but it's vastly simpler, easier, healthier, and more convenient for me than the fast food ever was, and I've wondered since then if people are just intimidated by the change, or have some other reason that really does make fast food their best option.
I’d be curious to know your recipes/plans - I can never seem to get something that’s healthy, cost conscious, and stable for 2 weeks in a prep plan.
For myself, I eat a lot of the local grocery store’s (HEB which I like a lot) prepared salads and sandwiches. They also sell a lot of pre-seasoned meat for grilling that I rather enjoy. Also we have a ton of Texmex restaurants here which are fairly unhealthy, but you can do pretty good if you divide one of their meals in half and get two servings, and the price for that is usually around the cost of a single fast-food meal. I also have the privilege of sharing a lot of meals with my parents and aunt/uncle as we are all locals.
Yea meal prepping has been huge for me. It can even turn cooking into a more communal experience if you get a few friends together on Sundays and spend a few hours in the kitchen. Cooking was very lonely for me before I made a day of it every other week. Better than fast food, cheaper than fast food, faster than fast food.
Over the past couple of weeks, I've come across quite a bit of anecdotal evidence suggesting that a lot of people in the US -- but especially those earning below median income -- badly need to earn more to make ends meet. Food, energy, entertainment, sneaky hidden fees, and high interest costs seem to be the main culprits.
With unemployment near its lowest rate in 50+ years, the pressure is largely on employers to pay up if they want to retain good people.[a] I wouldn't be surprised if we see labor costs rising in the near term, putting pressure on companies everywhere to raise consumer prices further.
Some economists and government officials claim that inflation is under control, but the anecdotal data I'm seeing suggests it's too early to sing victory.
I had a back and forth on Reddit about how the rest of the world is capable of taking their breakfast or lunch to work and it exposed the degree to which many people are behaviorally addicted to fat and salt.
“I have a commute and no time to fry and egg or make a sandwich” but can wait 10-15m in a drive through twice a day.
When I sometimes used to go into an office I’d have a soup or something for lunch and ate breakfast at home. Never really used the cafeteria beyond the soup. Of course this wasn’t some fancy free lunch, much less dinner, thing.
I can't imagine what the arguments looked like. No, you don't understand, it's impossible to wake up 10m early to fry an egg or make a sandwich? I don't get it.
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So when you abandon fast food and change to preparing your own, it will help but less than you might hope.
I do all of the shopping and cooking for my family. I understand your general point, but I’m having a very difficult time understanding how you could get to a $200 bill with “two small bags”. I don’t think I could get there without loading up on expensive steaks and seafood.
I normally purchase a lot of vegetables and fruits and some meat. There’s no way I could get to $200 total with a number of bags I could carry in my hands, even in a HCOL area.
While true, there are many people who cannot do this because they work 16+ hours per day. And if they have children it is even more difficult.
To me, this points to the fact people in the US are not being paid a "living" wage. I even heard Walmart will help new employees apply for food stamps, that is sick because we are subsidizing the owners of Walmart and their stockholders.
Whenever I read these comments I feel like people either grew up in an alternate reality than I did, or they get their perception of poor people from the hyperbole on Reddit.
People who grew up in poverty and work two full time jobs aren’t the ones feeding their families with fast food for 2-3 meals per day. They’re the ones who are experts at cheap cooking, crockpot meals, and cheap meals at home.
Reading comments like this that hit a checklist of cliche bullet points (being “forced” to feed your family with fast food, parent who works 16+ hour days, using Walmart as the canonical American job, mentioning the anecdote about Walmart instructing people about how to apply for assistance) I suspect the experience is more of a conglomeration of talking points from politicians and Reddit rather than real experience.
2. let's say these 16+ hours workers were the only ones justified eating ready meals, would the industry survive?
The solution would be something like wage crush from the top. The mass of this change wouldn't come from billionaires or the 1%, they are a drop in the bucket compared to the 50-90%.
There are tons of "average" people who got absolutely stacked in the last 5 years. Especially here on HN. They won't raise their hand, it's pretty taboo in this environment, but consumer spending and unrelenting housing prices make it very clear which social classes are fucked and which ones are richer than ever. And it's not billionaires and everyone else.
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Man, not to derail from the topic, but it never ceases to amaze me how varied our lifestyles can be. My wife and I have always loved going out to eat at restaurants, it would be a strange week where we didn't go out at least once.
The mainstream just hasn't caught up to the varied choices the world offers to individuals now, and that makes the bell curve seem a lot more flat than it actually is.
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That was the case for a while, but hasn't been for quite a while in the US. Food at home has been one of the factors bringing down the inflation rate for more than a year. The most recent data release shows only a 1.2% increase in the last year. It's true that food at home has risen by 25% since the start of the pandemic, but that was driven by what happened in 2021 and 2022.
Inflation on food away from home has come down quite a bit as well, but its inflation rate is still above 4%. At "limited service" food establishments (fast food), the inflation rate is well above 5%.
Fast food chains have the benefit of scale but they still have margins to make. That food is rarely healthy so you're also increasing your long term healthcare costs by going that route.
I believe that a major issue here is that many of the younger people in the US haven't gained the skills to cook for themselves. With those skills comes efficiency and the ability to reduce waste. For those working low wage jobs (of which I was for about a decade), time spent on cooking has a higher value than say a knowledge worker who can pick up some contract work on upwork.
I feel we've grown far too used to cheap food in the US. Particularly meat which relies on consolidation into large operations that require antibiotic use, cheap labor in poor conditions, and questionable practices in processing and livestock welfare. So yeah, perhaps that happy meal should cost more?
I agree that cooking can be done cheaply, but I never recommend gardening as a way to get cheaper food. I say this as someone who gardens a lot and enjoys it.
Gardening is fun if you enjoy it, but it’s not a realistic option for lowering food prices. It’s definitely not a solution to high food prices. It’s a hobby.
But you’re right: Even shopping at Whole Foods in a HCOL area it’s trivially easy to prepare reasonably priced meals. I don’t understand what some of these commenters are buying with claims of $200 for “two small bags” of groceries. I don’t think I could accomplish that without loading up on expensive beef, cheeses, and seafood.
That sounds odd, do you buy particularly expensive ingredients? I'm not in the US, but I prep my own meals with average quality ingredients. Not accounting for the extra time that it takes (which amortizes well with meal prep), I probably spend between 1/4th and 1/3rd as much as I would spend if I were to eat a similar meal at a restaurant.
Yes. Far more expensive than the cheap ingredients like the flours and oils of fast food. I focus on making my food as nutritionally dense as possible, which ain't cheap. But I ate a lot more than my share of fast-food first and did a lot of damage with it. I'm positive I'd be dead if I didn't change. That would certainly be a lot cheaper.
I think if you run the real numbers, eating at home is still a huge savings. And this allowing that you are probably using higher quality ingredients.
This is baffling for two reasons:
1. Canada currently has massive inflation problems. Housing prices are out of control. Groceries are expensive. Maybe you went to a small town somewhere and shopped as cheaply as possible, but your experience isn’t common.
1. I go to Costco in the US every week and fill the massive cart (bigger than your grocery store cart) for around $200. If you can’t fill a normal grocery store cart for $200 then you’re either in an extremely HCOL area or you’re shopping for expensive things.
Wait, what? As a Canadian I can assure you this is not the case. It is so much different than what you are saying that our generally passive population has undertaken a month long boycott of our largest grocer to protest the outrageous pricing. When I see American prices on social media, I am shocked at how much cheaper prices are, even with currency conversion.
I’d love to know what you thought was cheaper.
And the "excess savings" in the US economy due to the pandemic are gone, inflation has eaten them all up.
Combine that with high interest rates and I don't see how we avoid a fairly severe recession.
Big retail chains were making record profits, raised prices, offloaded most of risk elsewhere, and didnt correct once covid became another meh.
You can add travel cost there, folks went mental with traveling after restrictions were dropped, and so far dont seem to slow down.
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Many will complain about how expensive fast food is, but then brag that they refuse to learn how to cook. Some will complain about how expensive fast food is, then talk about going to Five Guys or other expensive fast food places multiple times per week. It’s strange to hear someone complain about how they can’t afford their daily Starbucks any more, yet they continue getting it every single day.
I don’t know what happened. I didn’t go to college all that long ago, but even then it was rare to see someone drinking daily expensive coffees and fast food was more of a treat than a meal plan.
Now I hear college students complaining about how expensive their DoorDash was on a regular basis, which blows my mind as an adult who could afford DoorDash but avoids it because it’s so expensive.
It’s like supply and demand suddenly broke because a lot of people started downplaying the price factor into their decision making. I don’t know what it is. Maybe the way we’ve let people load up on $100K of loans at the beginning of adulthood and the payments are delayed until much later? I’ve witness multiple conversations where students wonder if they could get more student loans to help free up their budget to buy brand new cars or really nice apartments or even vacations. For some, it’s like a magic money faucet that unlocks whatever they want, and the consequences haven’t even begun to arrive yet because they haven’t graduated. I really worry about the downstream effects this has on perceptions about budgeting and how expensive things are. When you’ve just been given a $100K loan but haven’t received a bill yet, that $15 burger seems like nothing.
It seems to me that many kids of the last couple of middle-class generations were raised in 2-income families that could be more generous with their kids. My nephews for example didn't work much until their 20's, didn't work during college (only summers), had nicer cars, went on vacations, etc.
I know "kids" who are now 30, working at restaurants or bars, sharing apartments, maybe don't have a car, are walking to work, and use DoorDash because they don't have a car to get food and/or groceries (they don't know how to cook either, because never learned while growing up).
Way different upbringings. A lot of young adults who do have money don't want kids because they are used to having and spending money and are smart enough to realize that kids will greatly cramp their lifestyle. The ones who are struggling know they can't afford kids: they're barely staying afloat themselves.
I think Visa and other private financial institutions are aware of this affect, and attempt to drive social change and expectations through legislation, advertising, sly dealings to ensure terminal ubiquity, and sweetheart media coverage painting cash as outmoded.
Cash makes a real difference for me when budgeting. And I should leave it at that before this becomes half rant, half anti-creditcard manifesto.
[0] https://mitsloan.mit.edu/experts/how-credit-cards-activate-r...
[1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-83488-3
That is one policy that turns me off. Sure you could have forgiven interest on loan or lowered it.
Why doll out free money?
Same with PPP loans that never got paid by millions of business owners.
Our govt has worse financial sense than college kids.
Turn on that money printer and keep signing those bills.
My n=1 - I live in a pretty upscale American city, and ~$15 will get you a very nice burger and fries (no drink) at some of the most upscale restaurants in town. Pay attention to their Happy Hours, and it's more like $11 or $12 (so you could add a soft drink). A huge portion of meaty lamb roganjosh & rice at my favorite Indian take-away is $16. Why would anyone ever want to go near a McDonalds?
This is the experience people are disappointed about missing; McDonald’s was never about the big ticket combos, it’s always been about the value deals which couldn’t be found anywhere else. I worked for three years at a Canadian McDonald’s, week after week our most popular sandwiches were the McDouble and Junior Chicken, each coming in at $1.46 CDN after tax. Now they’re both $4.50 after tax, roughly a 300% increase in the span of 10 years. People are right to be upset: the entire category of ultra-cheap-takeout is being swept out from under them with McDonald’s being just one of many companies following the same trend.
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It makes almost no sense to go fast food. Cava is about $12-13 out the door. It's even crazier on the west coast where in and out exists. I don't understand how McDs exists and since its significantly more liked than Burger King, even in a HCOL area, I don't see how they make money.
Depending on the franchisee, it's often one of the only late night options in town, giving sustenance to the stoners and post-drinks drunchies of the world.
The EU has a similar setup, but 26 countries still adds some overhead versus 3 countries with some form of a "Commerce Clause". It makes sense though - a Polish farmer probably can't compete with a Dutch farmer at scale due to less capital to invest in relatively expensive automation or larger operations.
At least you aren't paying East Asian prices for a lot of produce.
This applies to Burger King also: both franchises have (usually) hidden away on their discount menus small 'classic' hamburgers: small burger and bun, pickles, mustard, and ketchup. They are very inexpensive (usually, but may depend on individual places).
There little classic burgers remind me of when I was a kid, and I enjoy them. Two of them makes a light meal.
I am in my 70s and very well off financially, but it makes me feel bad to see a young family in front of me doing custom orders for adults and kids, and run up a bill much more than going into a non-franchise locally owned restaurant and getting a real meal.
Another tip for older people: Burger King offers a $1 large cup of coffee to seniors but you have to ask for it.
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Unless your idea of a "very nice burger" at an "upscale" restaurant is Five Guys you're full of it.
I'll assume that you are not from this area?
(Admittedly, you can spend $29 on a burger at West End Grill. Though that's not with fries, but their excellent sautéed vegetables, and choice of soup or salad. And if you're dining there, I'd really suggest spending a bit more to get their smoked duck.)
I feel that that is it should be? When I was young it was important enough to mention at the monday class circle if your grandparents had taken you to visit the Golden Arches and everyone would be very jealous.
My parents however, left us with a Tombstone pizza or Swanson's TV dinner three times per week when they went out to dinner.
I would consider this negligent parenting due to the poor nutrition of those meals.
It’s not time consuming to cook some lentils or other protein and add some spice and eat some yogurt.
Fast food has never been "normalized" for me and I think that is a good thing.
It's niche is good value convenience food for those on-the-go, and cheap enough for kids parties etc.
If it's now premium prices, local options are likely to be way better. I mean I'm not in US, but there's absolutely no way I'm paying $12 for a mcdonalds quarter-pounder-and-cheese - I remember them being famously under $1 and thus a great car snack on the way to a meeting or whatever.
And in case this is their intent, I really don't think the chivas regal effect can apply in this case - that's reserved for when the average punter can't really discern quality.
Like yes, we do have to phase out fossil fuels sooner than later, but maybe that's not the core issue here?
I guess it's different if I have a "real" contract. But right now I am trying to save "runway" for my current "startup" and it seems like opening DoorDash more than once or twice a month is a pretty bad idea.
I find them useful for placing an order in advance if I really want takeout, but then I go pick it up (I know there are still fees involved when ordering through an app, but I’ll often use the app just for the menu and call the restaurant directly to place the order). At that point I’m usually ready for a break in whatever I’m doing anyway.
But for people who order regularly, being able to cook and feed yourself is an essential life skill that should not be replaced by getting food delivery all the time.
Of course it is! I am in my 70s and well off financially and I only use food delivery in the rare event both my wife and I are ill at the same time.
I find it a pleasure to run out to get takeout food, or more usually stop by my local produce store or local market and get something to make dinner. I am a very busy person, and at the end of each day I have never had enough time to do everything I wanted to do that day, but still spending 20 minutes to get food, a little more time to cook a tasty meal (or more rarely get take out food) just seems like one of the basic enjoyable things in life not to be missed.
Is this a generational thing? Do younger people just not enjoy going to a farmer's market, to a local health food store, cook, etc.? I am not being judgmental, just curious.
The delivery services have become outright fraud operated at scale in their desperate attempt to maintain profitability. It’s not going to work.
For that price, you could purchase multiple frozen pizzas from any grocery store.
For that timeframe, you could also have cooked all of them.
DoorDash and UberEats and crap like that are absolutely not where you should spend your money.
> The delivery services have become outright fraud operated at scale
Welcome to "big business" and "modern economy"
I justified fast food to myself for a long time, telling myself I didn't have the bandwidth to plan meals, cook them, etc., and certainly not on busy days.
I don't remember where I found the idea, but eventually I ended up with two 2-week meal plans. I saved those grocery lists on the "to-go" order list for the grocer that's on my way home, and once every other week, I stop in and some nice employee brings the food out to my car. It doesn't even cost extra to have them do the shopping. For $15, they'd even bring it to my doorstep.
It does mean spending 3 hours every other weekend prepping the meals for the two weeks (it can be done in three 1-hour slots if it needs to), but then all I do at any given meal time is pull a jar out of the fridge, reheat it, and eat it. Most of the meals are fine cold too, just slightly less enjoyable. I have a little insulated lunchbox I put the food in if I think I might not be home at mealtime.
It took a little iterating, but it's vastly simpler, easier, healthier, and more convenient for me than the fast food ever was, and I've wondered since then if people are just intimidated by the change, or have some other reason that really does make fast food their best option.
For myself, I eat a lot of the local grocery store’s (HEB which I like a lot) prepared salads and sandwiches. They also sell a lot of pre-seasoned meat for grilling that I rather enjoy. Also we have a ton of Texmex restaurants here which are fairly unhealthy, but you can do pretty good if you divide one of their meals in half and get two servings, and the price for that is usually around the cost of a single fast-food meal. I also have the privilege of sharing a lot of meals with my parents and aunt/uncle as we are all locals.
With unemployment near its lowest rate in 50+ years, the pressure is largely on employers to pay up if they want to retain good people.[a] I wouldn't be surprised if we see labor costs rising in the near term, putting pressure on companies everywhere to raise consumer prices further.
Some economists and government officials claim that inflation is under control, but the anecdotal data I'm seeing suggests it's too early to sing victory.
I hope I'm wrong.
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[a] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/UNRATE/
“I have a commute and no time to fry and egg or make a sandwich” but can wait 10-15m in a drive through twice a day.