A couple if months before the pandemic lockdown I lost my dad. Then, the lockdown came. I got hit hard emotionally but tried to look fine. I thought I was fine, too. Family told me I was super competitive for no reason and tried to win even in simple board games. I felt there was rifts between me and my own family. I thought it would help see a therapist. During one of the session, I told her that I thought I was funny and made people around me laugh. She emphasized and made me understand the difference between being funny and being sarcastic. One is genuinely healthy while the other show deeper mental health issue. It struck me pretty hard but open my eyes to see that I had a real problem.
I said that those sessions help me a lot, both in family and at work now.
> Family told me I was super competitive for no reason and tried to win even in simple board games.
It’s going to vary between groups, but hyper-competitive board gaming is a thing and a good argument over one sentence in a rule book can happen without anyone ruining relationships.
I had a mate who was very funny; his wit was razor sharp and cutting. I was often at the receiving end of it, mainly because he knew I would take it as funny, nonetheless it was an external projection of his unhappiness inside. Happy ending: he met a girl, and very quickly the brutal edge of his humour disappeared. A shame, because I enjoyed it, but seeing his happiness, it's well worth it.
I often try and make people laugh, partly from a feeling of inadequacy, but partly the habit set long ago in my abusive childhood. Make the particularly unpredictable and dangerous parent laugh and you got a few minutes of safety (including physical safety). It was a strong motivator to be 'witty'.
Not an expert, but it seems to me that sarcasm is a kind of universal negativity that can be applied to pretty much anything. It's also incredibly vague and ambiguous about whether anything better exists or could exist.
For instance, looking at American news, you could sarcastically say "Go America!" to almost any story (unless it's actually good news, of course). Not only is such sarcasm negative, but it's also very passive.
Sarcasm also strikes me as juvenile. Children complain because they expect a parent will find a solution for them. Juveniles turn to sarcasm because they don't want to ask an adult to solve it, but they don't have a solution either. Then when they grow up, they realize that problems really do need to be solved and no one else will do it, so they need to use more productive communication strategies.
Overusing sarcasm is a method of expressing displeasure or discontent without actively pushing away those around you. You’re not actively insulting them, you’re “just joking,” but simultaneously expressing negative feelings. As a pointed remark, it can be hellishly funny. Used as the crux of a sense of humor, it is pretty clearly a scream for help, even if the speaker doesn’t know it yet.
i'm not a psychologist, but that's something i noticed as well before interacting with people. some clever sarcasm can spice up a conversation, but sarcasm in heavy doses is clearly a signal of distress, or mismanagement of anger or pain. sarcasm is the humor of the sour souls.
It's passive. It's the facade of a deeper want or observation that you're not expressing directly.
It puts the burden on the listener and requires mind reading - "is she being serious? Or is this a joke?".
I would contend that the mental health issue stems from when the speaker gets offended that the listener can't mind-read. "WHAT? Why would you take that seriously? I was just joking!"
If you're looking to get a point across, it's the worst means imaginable.
I don’t think this is actually a paradox, even though we generally associate laughter and comedy with happiness. It’s more accurate to say that happiness is akin to calmness or contentment, the lack of strong emotions.
Personally, after watching a funny comedian, I feel more emotionally exhausted than happy - which makes sense to me from this perspective.
Your second paragraph reminds of Aristotle's counter to Plato in one instance.
The debate was about whether media (poetry, plays) should be allowed. Plato thought, no, because poetry and other media burden the audience with emotions that have no value in practical life.
Aristotle countered that the poem has a "payoff" which relieves these emotions generated by reading the poem, so that the audience feels less emotionally burdened by the time it ends.
I particularly like R. G. Collingwood's historical commentary on their debate in The Principles of Art (published 1938), where he talks about our addiction to entertainment and being trapped in a vicious cycle ("one more episode").
I wouldn't say he was critical of poetry because they weren't "valuable in practical life" as Plato certainly wasn't a pragmatist. It's more that he thought the imitative arts didn't give true knowledge (i.e., a poet talking about war doesn't have actual true knowledge of war) and that poetry/literature often has bad role models that shouldn't be imitated by real people.
I used to find Plato's criticisms absurd and difficult to understand, but as media becomes more realistic, more influential, and more willing to display unethical characters in a sympathetic light for the sake of "the market" or "storytelling" I think he is probably correct at some level.
I'm thinking of the countless shows which glorify violence, cheating, drug smuggling, and so forth. It's not clear that glorifying these things in the media leads to them being acted out in real life, but even if it doesn't: that still seems like a massive sense of cognitive dissonance, wherein the cultural products of a society are only tenuously related to its real-world values.
well ... it either deserves to be called a "paradox" or the term "paradox" cannot be applied to anything and is only of philosophical relevance as the existence of a paradox is impossible by definition. that's why the term is applied for seemingly contradictory observations ...
A man goes to a doctor. “Doctor, I’m depressed,” the man says; life is harsh, unforgiving, cruel". The doctor lights up. The treatment, after all, is simple. “The great clown Pagliacci is in town tonight,” the doctor says, “Go and see him! That should sort you out. Next!”
The next guy comes in. “Doctor, I have no joy in my life. I'm thinking of ending things,” he says. The doctor tells him: “The great clown Pagliacci is in town tonight,” the doctor says, “Go and see him! That should sort you out. Next!”
Another guy comes in. “Doctor, please help me. I'm on my wit's end. Everything is meaningless since I lost my wife a year ago. I can't get off the bed in the morning. I wish I was dead myself". The doctor doesn't miss a beat: “The great clown Pagliacci is in town tonight,” the doctor says, “Go and see him! That should sort you out. Next!”
And so on. It's now 7pm and the doctor's office has closed its doors. The doctor picks up the phone and dials a number:
"Hello, is Pagliacci there? I'm doctor Greenwald. Tell him the tally is 38 people today. I expect my usual 10% cut".
“A moth goes into a podiatrist’s office, and the podiatrist’s office says, “What seems to be the problem, moth?”
The moth says “What’s the problem? Where do I begin, man? I go to work for Gregory Illinivich, and all day long I work. Honestly doc, I don’t even know what I’m doing anymore. I don’t even know if Gregory Illinivich knows. He only knows that he has power over me, and that seems to bring him happiness. But I don’t know, I wake up in a malaise, and I walk here and there… at night I…I sometimes wake up and I turn to some old lady in my bed that’s on my arm. A lady that I once loved, doc. I don’t know where to turn to. My youngest, Alexendria, she fell in the…in the cold of last year. The cold took her down, as it did many of us. And my other boy, and this is the hardest pill to swallow, doc. My other boy, Gregarro Ivinalititavitch… I no longer love him. As much as it pains me to say, when I look in his eyes, all I see is the same cowardice that I… that I catch when I take a glimpse of my own face in the mirror. If only I wasn’t such a coward, then perhaps…perhaps I could bring myself to reach over to that cocked and loaded gun that lays on the bedside behind me and end this hellish facade once and for all…Doc, sometimes I feel like a spider, even though I’m a moth, just barely hanging on to my web with an everlasting fire underneath me. I’m not feeling good. And so the doctor says, “Moth, man, you’re troubled. But you should be seeing a psychiatrist. Why on earth did you come here?”
If anyone is interested in further reading, the link references this Psychology Today article[0] which is a synopsis of The Tears of a Clown: Understanding Comedy Writers(2009)[1] by the same author.
PT article also references Pretend the world is funny and forever: a psychological analysis of comedians, clowns, and actors(1981)[2].
How many thousands of entertainers and comedians are neutral or happy but we never hear about because that’s less interesting than the Sad Clown narrative?
Readit News
I said that those sessions help me a lot, both in family and at work now.
It’s going to vary between groups, but hyper-competitive board gaming is a thing and a good argument over one sentence in a rule book can happen without anyone ruining relationships.
Way too often does HN takes every opportunity to actually and point out edge cases to make irrelevant counter arguments.
I often try and make people laugh, partly from a feeling of inadequacy, but partly the habit set long ago in my abusive childhood. Make the particularly unpredictable and dangerous parent laugh and you got a few minutes of safety (including physical safety). It was a strong motivator to be 'witty'.
For instance, looking at American news, you could sarcastically say "Go America!" to almost any story (unless it's actually good news, of course). Not only is such sarcasm negative, but it's also very passive.
Sarcasm also strikes me as juvenile. Children complain because they expect a parent will find a solution for them. Juveniles turn to sarcasm because they don't want to ask an adult to solve it, but they don't have a solution either. Then when they grow up, they realize that problems really do need to be solved and no one else will do it, so they need to use more productive communication strategies.
Luckily the easy defense against sarcasm it take the statements at face value. “Oh, really? You wanted to work on Saturday? Well, great then.”
It puts the burden on the listener and requires mind reading - "is she being serious? Or is this a joke?".
I would contend that the mental health issue stems from when the speaker gets offended that the listener can't mind-read. "WHAT? Why would you take that seriously? I was just joking!"
If you're looking to get a point across, it's the worst means imaginable.
Say it plainly. Say it directly.
Personally, after watching a funny comedian, I feel more emotionally exhausted than happy - which makes sense to me from this perspective.
The debate was about whether media (poetry, plays) should be allowed. Plato thought, no, because poetry and other media burden the audience with emotions that have no value in practical life.
Aristotle countered that the poem has a "payoff" which relieves these emotions generated by reading the poem, so that the audience feels less emotionally burdened by the time it ends.
I particularly like R. G. Collingwood's historical commentary on their debate in The Principles of Art (published 1938), where he talks about our addiction to entertainment and being trapped in a vicious cycle ("one more episode").
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharsis
For more on Plato's thoughts on aesthetics:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-aesthetics/
I wouldn't say he was critical of poetry because they weren't "valuable in practical life" as Plato certainly wasn't a pragmatist. It's more that he thought the imitative arts didn't give true knowledge (i.e., a poet talking about war doesn't have actual true knowledge of war) and that poetry/literature often has bad role models that shouldn't be imitated by real people.
I used to find Plato's criticisms absurd and difficult to understand, but as media becomes more realistic, more influential, and more willing to display unethical characters in a sympathetic light for the sake of "the market" or "storytelling" I think he is probably correct at some level.
I'm thinking of the countless shows which glorify violence, cheating, drug smuggling, and so forth. It's not clear that glorifying these things in the media leads to them being acted out in real life, but even if it doesn't: that still seems like a massive sense of cognitive dissonance, wherein the cultural products of a society are only tenuously related to its real-world values.
I'm not sure where you got that definition?
The next guy comes in. “Doctor, I have no joy in my life. I'm thinking of ending things,” he says. The doctor tells him: “The great clown Pagliacci is in town tonight,” the doctor says, “Go and see him! That should sort you out. Next!”
Another guy comes in. “Doctor, please help me. I'm on my wit's end. Everything is meaningless since I lost my wife a year ago. I can't get off the bed in the morning. I wish I was dead myself". The doctor doesn't miss a beat: “The great clown Pagliacci is in town tonight,” the doctor says, “Go and see him! That should sort you out. Next!”
And so on. It's now 7pm and the doctor's office has closed its doors. The doctor picks up the phone and dials a number:
"Hello, is Pagliacci there? I'm doctor Greenwald. Tell him the tally is 38 people today. I expect my usual 10% cut".
The moth says “What’s the problem? Where do I begin, man? I go to work for Gregory Illinivich, and all day long I work. Honestly doc, I don’t even know what I’m doing anymore. I don’t even know if Gregory Illinivich knows. He only knows that he has power over me, and that seems to bring him happiness. But I don’t know, I wake up in a malaise, and I walk here and there… at night I…I sometimes wake up and I turn to some old lady in my bed that’s on my arm. A lady that I once loved, doc. I don’t know where to turn to. My youngest, Alexendria, she fell in the…in the cold of last year. The cold took her down, as it did many of us. And my other boy, and this is the hardest pill to swallow, doc. My other boy, Gregarro Ivinalititavitch… I no longer love him. As much as it pains me to say, when I look in his eyes, all I see is the same cowardice that I… that I catch when I take a glimpse of my own face in the mirror. If only I wasn’t such a coward, then perhaps…perhaps I could bring myself to reach over to that cocked and loaded gun that lays on the bedside behind me and end this hellish facade once and for all…Doc, sometimes I feel like a spider, even though I’m a moth, just barely hanging on to my web with an everlasting fire underneath me. I’m not feeling good. And so the doctor says, “Moth, man, you’re troubled. But you should be seeing a psychiatrist. Why on earth did you come here?”
And the moth says, “‘Cause the light was on.”
https://youtu.be/tX8TgVR33KM
Edit: well not, exactly this subject but close enough.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sad_clown_paradox
Sad clown paradox - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38198417 - Nov 2023 (124 comments)
PT article also references Pretend the world is funny and forever: a psychological analysis of comedians, clowns, and actors(1981)[2].
Pretty interesting read.
[0]https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/beautiful-minds/2008...
[1]https://scottbarrykaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Kau...
[2]https://www.bing.com/search?q=site%3Aannas-archive.org+%22Pr...
(edit: which I see goles also referenced in the sibling comment!)
Nobody sees a psychiatrist because they're happy all the time.
It gets old, seriously. The sad clown narrative never implied no one who is funny is happy, get over yourself.