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PopAlongKid · 2 years ago
I still have a set which was sold as "Visual Chess", and you can still find it on eBay for example. The pieces were mostly like traditional design (but kind of "modernized" in 1960s style) but when viewed from the top (i.e. as you play), there was an indication of the allowed move. You can see some examples in the image link below.

Even the pawns had a nice design which clearly indicated that movement of one square forward (normally), or attacking on the diagonal, were both allowed.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Yx4AAOSwTY9i7XeC/s-l960.jpg

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/AZUAAOSwuABi7XeE/s-l960.jpg

angry_moose · 2 years ago
I had an updated version of this set (probably from the 90s?). Mine had a better board and I think the tops of the pieces were different, but the text/diagrams were identical:

https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/c1ri78/t...

Not all of the moves were the clearest, but it was still handy while trying to learn.

jenadine · 2 years ago
It doesn't represent the "en passant" rule, nor the castling. :-)
giis · 2 years ago
Great! This will be excellent for beginners. I'm considering teaching chess to my kids. Can I still find it online? My searches on Amazon and Google haven't yielded the results I need.

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jimbob45 · 2 years ago
That's the exact set I had. Worked pretty great for learning the game.
shrimp_emoji · 2 years ago
infogulch · 2 years ago
For me the most surprising observation from this thread is this tweet [1] showing that the knight's moves are exactly the squares that the queen can't get to within a 2 square manhattan distance.

I.e. the knight is an anti-queen.

[1]: https://twitter.com/skidbladnirr_/status/1750285122769957129

aurelwu · 2 years ago
Some non-orthodox chess variants have a piece which combines Queen+Knight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_(chess)

very old variants often had such compound pieces like for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grant_Acedrex

porphyra · 2 years ago
There's also the knook that combines the Knight and the Rook, which was hilariously invented as a meme on /r/anarchychess: https://anarchychess.fandom.com/wiki/Knook
ComplexSystems · 2 years ago
You mean a 2-square Chebyshev distance, I think (the Linf norm). A 2-square Manhattan distance (the L1 norm) wouldn't include any of the squares that a knight can get to.
godelski · 2 years ago
For those that want a visual description there's a blog I serendipitous recently ran into[0]. If you're too lazy to open:

- n-square Chebyshev distance forms concentric squares around your starting point

- n-square Manhattan Distance forms diamonds (meaning up/down/left/right = 1 space away but all diagonals are 2 spaces away)

We could also say the Knight can go everywhere a queen can't in the 3-square Manhattan distance and this might be more useful since it is all points along that boundary except the corners! (We got an in the wild "2 problems in computer science" with an "off by 1" error :)

[0] https://chris3606.github.io/GoRogue/articles/grid_components...

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lovecg · 2 years ago
This is why in some rare endgames you might want to promote to a knight instead of a queen to avoid a stalemate!
eru · 2 years ago
Chess would be a more elegant game without the stalemate rule.

(And apparently it would be a more _interesting_ game without castling. At least according to the game that the AIs at Deep Mind played when they trained them on this variant on a whim. Castling was supposed to speed up development of chess, but it favours the defense a lot.

So what the game's appeal wins from castling in cutting out some busy work moves, it loses in attacking spirit.)

MaxikCZ · 2 years ago
I dont get it. Queen can do everything a knight can, and then some. How can electing a knight instead of queen can be of any usefulness?

Or do you mean it avoids stalemate by making it harder for the elector to defend/attack, and loose? I dont see any advantage there, isnt stalemate always preffered to loosing?

dheera · 2 years ago
In Chinese chess, the horse behaves like the knight in western chess except that (a) it cannot jump over pieces, and (b) the definition of jumping over is that it first move horizontally/vertically 1 step and then diagonally 1 step. It cannot first move diagonally.

This also leads to situations where two knights can be positioned amongst other pieces such that one knight is able to capture the other but not vice versa.

zelphirkalt · 2 years ago
Most people think of the knight move as one straight and then one diagonal. However, this is still ambiguous. Imagine one up, then one down left for example, resulting in the square left to the original square. A better description is moving 2 squares straight, not diagonal, into one direction, then moving 1 square into a 90° turned direction.
andoando · 2 years ago
To add to that, this also makes a knight and queen a very strong attacking combo, because they can uniquely cover the most squares.
tasuki · 2 years ago
Given... they stay... in the same... square?
V-2 · 2 years ago
It also enables some powerful, well-known attacking patterns, like a smothered checkmate with Queen sacrifice (or Philidor's mate).
zeteo · 2 years ago
Yup that's how they designed it in hexagonal chess: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexagonal_chess#Rules

"the knight may move to any nearest cell not on an orthogonal or diagonal line on which it stands"

blauditore · 2 years ago
I thought that was the main deal about knights...
sicariusnoctis · 2 years ago
A very interesting property:

Knights have odd-even parity, i.e., they attack only opposite colored squares.

Pop quiz: How many knights can you place on a board so that they don't attack each other?

bell-cot · 2 years ago
Well, since a knight on a white square can only attack knights on black squares, and half of the 64 squares are white...
dudul · 2 years ago
I'm not a master or anything, but I've always found it interesting that the queen is usually thought of as the most powerful piece while I think it's the knight.

Yeah the queen can move everywhere, but she's "predictable". The way a knight moves makes it more difficult to defend against IMO.

Agentlien · 2 years ago
A huge difference is that a queen, like a rook, can attack a whole row and column, making it possible to box in an opponent's king. A knight has limited reach and can never attack a square the same colour as the one it is occupying.

Another is that a queen, like a rook, can reach any unblocked square in at most two moves. A Knight can require up to six moves!

Add to this the ability to move and attack diagonally like a bishop, but without the restriction of staying on the same colour of squares...

The queen is immensely powerful.

V-2 · 2 years ago
Knights tend to be overrated at lower levels of playing strength, where their irregular moving pattern is indeed challenging for the players, and as a result, Knight moves often get overlooked.

However, once a player becomes more proficient, not only the obvious superiority of the Queen, but even of the Bishop (other things being equal, Bishops are thought to be actually somewhat more valuable, especially as a pair) starts becoming apparent.

FartyMcFarter · 2 years ago
Knights are objectively nowhere near as powerful as queens. However they're underrated in blitz chess, where their visually hard to see moves often catch people unaware.

Even grandmasters fall for knight forks in blitz games quite often.

sebzim4500 · 2 years ago
Try playing a game where your opponents knights are replaced with queens. I suspect you will change your mind very quickly.
rlpb · 2 years ago
Knights are prone to getting "trapped". There are limited places a knight can go, so the opponent only has to maintain pressure on those squares. This is the reason why it's generally a bad idea to put a knight near a corner of the board.
filleduchaos · 2 years ago
Knights are useful but are very much not as difficult to defend against as a queen.
fasteo · 2 years ago
>>> I.e. the knight is an anti-queen.

The complement-queen I would say

JCharante · 2 years ago
I have no source for this but that is the definition for a knight's valid moves, it goes where the queen cannot within that distance
lgeorget · 2 years ago
The official definition, as per the FIDE laws of chess [1], article 3.6 is

"The knight may move to one of the squares nearest to that on which it stands but not on the same rank, file or diagonal."

[1] https://www.fide.com/FIDE/handbook/LawsOfChess.pdf

crdrost · 2 years ago
I think this is fun, but

(a) knights' threats are disconnected and this "flower" approach while good is maybe not ideal. You might as well use a hollow circle at that point.

(b) when we say "chess pieces can be redesigned to be..." then I think about actual physical pieces, it would not do to make these as actual physical pieces because an accidental misplacement turns a rook into a bishop or vice versa. Gotta make the bishop look like it is "sniping" along the diagonals while the rook looks more "sweeping" maybe?

(c) don't make the king a little-queen. Make the king a little square to emphasize "it can only threaten the neighboring square," then it looks more visually distinctive.

The pawns are fun though.

tempestn · 2 years ago
I think I'd be inclined to disambiguate them by making the ends of the bishop pointed and the ends of the rook blunt. When moving along a diagonal you're moving in the direction of square corners, vs faces for moving in ranks and files, so it makes sense in that way, and it also evokes the shapes of the classical pieces.
jayknight · 2 years ago
>an accidental misplacement turns a rook into a bishop or vice versa

This was my first thought too. If the "feet" of all of the pieces were "flat", or parallel to the rows of the board, you could more easily tell their proper orientation.

Reason077 · 2 years ago
A swastika shape would make sense for the knight.

I guess there is still a cultural aversion to its use, however.

zeteo · 2 years ago
A swastika?! Not quite, it's more like a cross: ꖅ
V-2 · 2 years ago
It would need 8 arms, not 4. (A well-placed Knight meaningfully controlling all of its 8 target squares is actually referred to as an "octopus Knight" sometimes).

It is also opinionated, in the sense that the vectors for Knight moves is [2, 1] and [1, 2] (whereby in both cases negative numbers can be used)... so whether you visualize a Knight move towards the left top corner as an L (x-1 first, then y-2), or as an ꓶ (y-2 first, then x-1) is an arbitrary decision.

It might be my OCD side coming out, but any design prioritizing one of these perspectives over the equally valid alternative doesn't feel "clean" to me somehow : )

filleduchaos · 2 years ago
A swastika would only cover half of a knight's legal moves.
cruano · 2 years ago
Unrelated, but I just realized the horse is not in fact called "horse" like it is in Italian/Spanish.
WJW · 2 years ago
It's been weird/amusing observing how different age groups at my local chess clubs call pieces and concepts. The older group very much stays to the local Dutch terminology for both while the younger group (presumably influenced by youtube) tends to mix Dutch piece names with English concepts. So you can have a koning (king) that is being "skewered" by a koningin (Queen) on the tweede (second) rank.
tauchunfall · 2 years ago
It is called "Springer" (translates to: jumper) in German. Sometimes "Pferd" or "Ross" is also used (translates to: horse and steed, resp.). That's why "Knight's tour" is called "Springerproblem" or "Rösselsprung" (from "Ross") in German.
ambigious7777 · 2 years ago
When I was younger, I always believed that the proper name was for the knight was "horse" (my primary language is English). I only figured it out when I was playing chess against my friend, and he was like, "horse? wth is that"
jorisboris · 2 years ago
Or Dutch
Raphael · 2 years ago
Yes, the knight is up to 8 squares in a 5x5 grid. https://github.com/vezquex/chess/blob/master/src/game/piece/...
ramon156 · 2 years ago
I also realized that if you defined the pieces like their moves, the knight's shape would be.... Interesting
mc32 · 2 years ago
Wouldn’t it look like four capital tees joined at opposites/right angles at the stem?
fastball · 2 years ago
I don't think (b) is really fair. You still call them "pieces" even if you are playing chess on a device/screen.

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V-2 · 2 years ago
Fun as it may be as a thought/UX experiment, I don't think it's a good design, because half-truth is usually the worst compromise.

This design doesn't account for many special qualities and behaviors pieces exhibit. It doesn't indicate that

* while pawns do capture diagonally (forward), they are pushed forward in straight line

* they can capture en passant

* they can move by 2 squares from their initial file, and only from the initial file

* they can be promoted to another piece

* Knight moves are not inhibited by the presence of other pieces (unlike any other piece, a Knight can "jump over" pieces)

* castling

* special status of the King (unless it's conveyed by that circle in the middle, but it's not nearly as readable a symbol as a crown)

So this design kind of works if you already have complete information from elsewhere, but isn't that great if it were your first source of info.

It also loses the poetic aesthetics of the traditional pieces, with queens and kings and bishops etc.

mtlmtlmtlmtl · 2 years ago
I have a fair amount of experience teaching children and adults how to play chess.

I've almost never seen a beginner mess up the basics of how the pieces move(what this piece set displays). Probably 95% of confusion about rules in new players is about the things you mention. Especially en passant and castling rules.

The rule on castling through check is especially confusing, and I've seen even master strength players believe that you can't castle long if b1 or b8 is attacked. Another common mistake is forgetting the rook or king has previously moved.

En passant is also very confusing for beginners because there's no indication of it being possible in the current board state. It depends on the previous ply.

Repetition is also a major footgun in tournament play. It's often referred to as repetition of moves, but it's actually repetition of the position(which is typically reached via repetition of moves, but doesn't have to). And there's a very specific procedure in tournament chess for claiming a repetition. You have to write down your move, stop the clock and call the arbiter without making the move. If you make the move and hit the clock, now your opponent has every right to make another move, creating a new position. The repetition no longer counts when that happens(so you can't claim e.g oh the position repeated a 3rd time 15 moves ago, gimme a draw).

I actually lost a game this way when I had a repetition in a losing position.

V-2 · 2 years ago
> * they can move by 2 squares from their initial file, and only from the initial file

Obviously I meant a rank (horizontal), not a file (vertical), sorry. Cannot edit the comment anymore

catapart · 2 years ago
That is very clever!

But I hate the way the pawns face. Makes sense! But it still reads, to me, like one of those "color, but the text is in a different color" things. Feels like the pawns should be facing the opposite direction. =/

phkahler · 2 years ago
It's attack direction not movement direction. Pawns are the one piece where there is a difference and I'm not sure which is better ;-)
Nition · 2 years ago
Catapart is aware, they're just saying it's unfortunate how it ends up looking.
e12e · 2 years ago
Also, there's rochade/castling.
da_chicken · 2 years ago
It is very clever, except accidental rotation can easily turn rooks into bishops and vice-versa.
e12e · 2 years ago
Sounds like a fun variant, allowing that as a move... (Remicent of shogi).
Raphael · 2 years ago
You could put each piece on a square base that must remain aligned with the board.
paulddraper · 2 years ago
Yeah, I wonder if it would be a slight improvement to combine move+capture.

So pawns would be

    /|\  /|\


    \|/  \|/

which looks less anti-directional.

th4tg41 · 2 years ago
Also visualizes en-passant in a better way.
ianburrell · 2 years ago
It would make sense to have move and capture be different. Like square in front and two lines or points to the diagonal.
TacticalCoder · 2 years ago
Same. I understand why they're like that but I can't see it any other way than: "Why are pawns going to move in the wrong direction?".
joshka · 2 years ago
I think change out \/ for:

    ■ ■
     P
And the knight for:

     ■ ■
    ■   ■
      N  
    ■   ■
     ■ ■
       
And you might have something a little nicer

lemmsjid · 2 years ago
It would be interesting to do an experiment on people playing one another (online) with these pieces vs regular pieces (e.g. one player with a regular set and one player with this set). Because I do feel like I can visualize the state of the board more easily with this approach--but would that translate across people into better play, or is there some point where a more expert player (I don't play very often, though I enjoy playing and have played for years) has already internalized the mapping from piece shape to movement. But that said, it does feel like the difference between font styles in programming, which for me have a very meaningful impact over time.

Edit: Though good point to the parallel commenters, the knight shape is harder to differentiate and kind of throws me off. But maybe tweaks there.

nescioquid · 2 years ago
If you're ever going to get the point where you recognize tactics (or anything, for that matter) on the board, how the pieces move must already be internalized and not require any thought. People even especially practice visualizing knight journeys between arbitrary squares to make this more automatic.

If you ask an experienced player to use a weird piece set, you will only be introducing error and cognitive overhead. If you ask someone naive to the game to use the piece set, do they internalize how the pieces move more quickly and get over the impedance when they start to use a normal set?

Going at a tangent to your idea, maybe it is possible to construct a set that aids the performance of a naive player, but which degrades the performance of a more experienced opponent. Could that handicap be as great as a club player offering pawn odds against a naive opponent?

palata · 2 years ago
Exactly this. Relatives have been trying to choose "fancy-looking" chess sets for me as a gift, and I always hated them. I don't want fancy pieces, I want the standard ones that don't give me cognitive overhead :-).

"Tournament chessboards" are my favourites, obviously.

bondarchuk · 2 years ago
>Going at a tangent to your idea, maybe it is possible to construct a set that aids the performance of a naive player, but which degrades the performance of a more experienced opponent. Could that handicap be as great as a club player offering pawn odds against a naive opponent?

Blindfolded chess for the better player ;)

sleeplessworld · 2 years ago
The knight shape does seem off. But it avoids the piece being a sun symbol / fascist tribute piece :-)
donkeybeer · 2 years ago
It shouldn't look like that, its two I's at 90 degrees: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GEqoWAFXQAAPRXm?format=jpg&name=...
junon · 2 years ago
> has already internalized the mapping from piece shape to movement

Magnus Carlson, considered one of - if not the - best chess players of all time has a famous video of him playing three chess matches simultaneously, blindfolded, and winning all three.

Once you get to a certain point not only the movements but also entire gameplay strategies become internalized.

WJW · 2 years ago
Not to mention the video where the board is presented in the "wrong" direction, so he enumerates to himself which squares the pieces are on, then closes his eyes so he can see the board clearer.
NickC25 · 2 years ago
The more impressive one is where he's matched up against 10 Harvard Law students simultaneously, and is blindfolded. He won all of the games handily.

Even more impressive, one of the students asked Magnus if he could sign a chess board. Not only did Magnus sign an autograph, he literally annotated the entire game from memory. That is insane to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1Rr4Uq1R-I

RockofStrength · 2 years ago
This is already incorporated to some extent. Keeping in mind sets vary,

Knight's profile is the L-shape.

Rook has four parapets (and four gaps).

Bishop has a diagonal slit.

King has 8 stubby protrusions in his crown.

Queen has 8 pointy protrusions in her crown.

Pawns are most basic (ironic considering their qualities are most byzantine). I guess it's nice to have a baseline piece for aesthetics.

freyfogle · 2 years ago
MattPalmer1086 · 2 years ago
I have the 1924 Bauhaus chess set and it's the most beautiful thing I own.

Always loved how the shape and size of the pieces indicate their moves while still being simple and recognisable.

anthk · 2 years ago
So that's where the inspiration for BeOS/HaikuOS came from.

https://www.haiku-os.org/development/icon-guidelines/

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tdiff · 2 years ago
And it looks so much more reasonable, I would say
SamBam · 2 years ago
Except that this set describes the attack directions, not the motion directions. The difference is in the shape of the pawns. I think this one is quite interesting, as showing lines of threat.

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tdiff · 2 years ago
Those peaces remain unreasonably expensive on Amazon, btw.
brk · 2 years ago
Peace has always come at a high cost. But if it's available on Amazon that still seems like progress.
Raphael · 2 years ago
Good whittling project then.