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Posted by u/jn31415 2 years ago
Ask HN: To what extent have digital payments replaced cash in your country?
I've been based in Vietnam for the past few years. This country seems to be relatively slow in adopting digital payment methods (which is just fine by me, btw.). Cash is still accepted anywhere and also still appears to be the most common payment method. When it comes to digital payments, regular bank transfers via bank apps seem to be the most popular option. I take it that the same is the case for other countries in the region, such as Thailand, Cambodia and Laos. But it does make me wonder, how is the situation in other places? Do people in your country still use cash on a daily basis? If not, what is the go-to payment method?
wheels · 2 years ago
Since nobody's chimed in here from Germany yet:

Germany's broadly a hold-out. Particularly a lot of restaurants, bars and clubs are still cash-only, and some smaller shops definitely prefer cash. Used cars are, interestingly, almost always cash-only. Person to person transactions (i.e. buying something you pick up in person) are almost always cash. Open air markets (produce, flea markets) are always cash.

Electronic payments are becoming more accepted, but it's wise to almost always have some cash on hand.

Cash retains a certain appeal for privacy reasons, and, let's be honest, for businesses avoiding paying their taxes. I'm actually happy cash remains. I don't like the idea of everything I ever buy being recorded. I also don't mind when e.g. going out that I have to consciously get more cash from the ATM when I've blown through my evening budget.

This is in amusing contrast with my trip to Sweden last year, where I pulled out the equivalent of €100 for emergencies, and had trouble getting rid of it in the week and a half there since most places didn't seem to even take cash.

chironjit · 2 years ago
To add, Germany is an outlier when it comes to cashless payment adoption, even (and especially when) compared to its neighbours.

Overall, our experience is that it is impossible to be out and about cashless in Germany as there is no telling which bar / beergarten / restaurant / shop only accepts cash.

cedilla · 2 years ago
It's changing in larger cities. I only have to use cash very rarely now - in small Döner or pizza shops that evade taxes.
OfSanguineFire · 2 years ago
Germany’s slow adoption of cashless payment is, or at least was, shared with Austria, and even to some degree with Slovenia (which takes after Austria in many ways).
poorlyknit · 2 years ago
I recently visited Dublin from Germany and was positively surprised that they also still use cash in a lot of places. I even saw two pro-cash posters that read something like

    Using cash, we only spend 70% of what we spend using electronic payments
and the other one was privacy-related. I agree with both of them and your comment that it's easier to keep track of your expenses with cash.

microtheo · 2 years ago
Yes, I agree, I was going to write the same. But to be honest, I like cash. The feeling of the cash flowing out of your hand is much more palpable than when you use a card :) In Switzerland there is a national app for sending cash to friends that is really handy and popular (TWINT)
okeuro49 · 2 years ago
> The feeling of the cash flowing out of your hand is much more palpable than when you use a card :)

I prefer using credit card, as it's easy to lose track of how much I'm spending with cash. With card, I have a statement at the end of the month so I can see what I have spent.

ShamelessC · 2 years ago
An app for sending cash? How does that work exactly? Out of curiosity.
theshrike79 · 2 years ago
Germany is a weird country. On the surface they are the top of the line in technology.

On the other hand they still prefer paper money, fax machines and paper forms instead of their electronic versions.

bad_alloc · 2 years ago
Agreed, a hybrid system is nice. What bothers me are bakeries getting upset at you when trying to pay <10€ and you dare to attempt to use a card.
ricardobeat · 2 years ago
In the Netherlands; mostly haven't carried cash for 5-6 years now. Since Apple Pay was enabled here around 2019, the majority of my purchases are through the phone or watch. About once a year there will be some situation that requires cash, usually when traveling.

Even street vendors have debit/pin machines (Zettle/SumUp etc), and with mobile phones starting to be able to act as a receiver there would be no reason to use cash at all. I don't like the privacy implications but it's immensely practical.

For sending money to others, sharing bills etc you use Tikkie which generates a link or QR code that anyone can use to pay you via iDeal (debit).

nerdbert · 2 years ago
Same here, haven't touched cash in the Netherlands in years.

It's interesting to see how it varies in other European countries. In Germany and Belgium you kind of have to carry some cash or you will find yourself unable to pay at many small restaurants and shops.

On the other hand, in Sweden, Spain, UK, etc., I also never touch cash. I have been to Sweden multiple times and I have no idea what Swedish money even looks like.

jeroenhd · 2 years ago
Netherlands. Only carry cash because I received some as a gift at some point. Only place that I use my cash on is the local barbershop which only takes cash (probably avoids paying taxes that way).

I pay everything through contactless payments through my phone or my debit card barring that.

Some shops don't even take cash anymore because of how few of their customers paid in cash compared to how risky carrying that cash to the bank is. I'm not very happy with that development, but I can understand why they do it.

Some people prefer cash, some people prefer using their debit card (chip + PIN is generally very secure, of course!).

CalRobert · 2 years ago
Netherlands also here so commenting on yours - I effectively never use cash. I don't actually like this (I prefer privacy), but I also know that my own personal actions won't matter a lot.

I moved here a few months ago from Ireland where cash was still around but a fairly small percentage of retail transactions, but _very_ common for paying for services. Every tradesperson I used wanted me to pay cash and would charge me more if I didn't (they were committing tax fraud). At one point I was expected to have €3,000 in cash just lying around for a stonemason.

wallaBBB · 2 years ago
Important to note that some shops in the Netherlands do not accept credit cards, and some even debit cards from Visa/Mastercard due to high processing fees (few %, varies from market to market and business to business). What made digital payments dominant in the Netherlands is the iDeal and (now retiring) Maestro cards, which have low fees. EU is looking into implementing something like iDeal at EU level, to popularize card payments. Those few % that Visa/Mastercard take are a lot for some low margin businesses.
jeroenhd · 2 years ago
The percentage cut is definitely annoying, but I believe the move from Maestro to Mastercard has also solved creditcard problems for a lot of people. There were a surprising number of Maestro-only terminals out there that were limited by technology rather than policy.

I still don't think I can pay for my groceries with my credit card, but that's clearly indicated at least. I expect the companies refusing the huge processing fees to block credit cards for years to come until the fees go down. That's unfortunate for tourists and immigrants, but mobile payment (bank specific/Apple Pay/Google Wallet) should work over the standard protocol and otherwise there are still ATMs you can use.

art3m · 2 years ago
I didn't use cash for years in Russia, all about card payments and instant bank payments between people. Last year many of POS asking to pay via QR code to avoid card fee (2-3%).

Central Bank will test digital Ruble asset in the recent time, it's some sort of limited conversion currency, like you get a payment for child care and it's possible to use only for limited products to purchase.

rishikeshs · 2 years ago
Here in India, UPI payments are quite popular. I live in New Delhi the capital and never withdraw cash in my day to day life. The only instance where I have to withdraw cash is when I have to pay rent as my landlord accepts only cash to evade taxes. Apart from these barring very few, at least in cities everything works on digital payments.

Please note that card payments are not at all popular in India and UPI is the most common means of digital payment.

Edit: I meant card instead of cash

qart · 2 years ago
> Please note that cash payments are not at all popular in India and UPI is the most common means of digital payment.

This is false. https://www.orfonline.org/research/indias-upi-market/ (article from last month, citing the latest figures available to it.) "While India has recorded a significant increase in digital transactions, cash is still the dominant payment mechanism, with cash usage accounting for 59.3 percent of transactions volume in 2021."

rishikeshs · 2 years ago
It was a typo. What i meant is among digital payments, UPI is most popular and card payments are not all!
signal11 · 2 years ago
> Please note that cash payments are not at all popular in India and UPI is the most common means of digital payment.

This is a very privileged (and personal) view.

In terms of objective hard data, the percentage of Cash in Circulation to GDP (CIC/GDP) in India is about 12.7% which is about the same as 2005-2015 figures (12.1%), in fact it’s slightly higher.

Essentially the ratio of cash in circulation to the total economy hasn’t changed materially, in fact it’s gone up slightly, measured over a decade.

Note that CIC/GDP did rise to 14.4% in 2021 due to GDP shrinkage post COVID, so it’s fallen from then, but that was a one-off blip.

Why CIC/GDP has not fallen further needs more investigation, but an interesting nugget is that most UPI transactions are very low value, 2/3rds under INR 500 ($6).

It’s also worth considering the impact of internet shutdowns, which can be long and sustained. People living in New Delhi won’t realise this, but many parts of the country have experienced this. Of course UPI now has “offline mode” (Lite) but it’s limited to small-value payments.

Some of the stats above was drawn from here[1], the writer is quite well known in finance journalism circles.

[1] https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/sorry-cash-isn-t-going-...

rishikeshs · 2 years ago
It was a typo. What i meant is among digital payments, UPI is most popular and card payments are not all!
albert_e · 2 years ago
this is true for the affluent class.

smartphones are necessary to pay via UPI

smartphones--bank accounts--aadhaar card

in case of some low income workers, smartphones are not universal

in case of some migrant workers (including those that come from neighboring countries in search of jobs) .. aadhaar or bank account may not be immediately available

while digital payments are definitely becoming common cash is still accepted

in some cases autorikshaw drivers either avoided UPI (because something went wrong previously and their account went into negative balance ..so any payments they accept there will be swallowed by the app) ..or sometimes ask for cash as preferred mode because for them it is easier to spend immediately (sometimes even for sentimental reasons like first ride of the day)

trustingtrust · 2 years ago
Not true. I live in India and have traveled to smaller villages in the south and some in the north. People have started to avoid cash altogether because of few reasons. They do have UPI they just don’t like it cause they like cash. There is never any issue with UPI, it’s just an excuse.

Cash creates a problem of giving change that end up dissatisfying the customer or the customer just leaves. Only after UPI people understood this so now they want you to buy it as payments are not a hassle. Rickshaws in cities have lost interest in random hires. I have waited 45 minutes for rickshaws. Everyone is on Uber or Ola cause they will show up and say cancel the request and give me little less money instead. Pretty common. So they don’t have the option to say no to UPI. They try to give you reasons why it’s not working but they just want cash for obvious reasons.

UPI also allows people to have multiple accounts in family to accept payments. This way they can avoid any tax payments as small amounts in small villages are not scrutinised by the income tax department.

UPI has created more and easier transactions. Small village or big town, I’ve never seen a shop without a QR code in the last year or so.

ghoshbishakh · 2 years ago
In tier 2 and tier 3 cities almost everyone uses UPI. And every lower middleclass home has a smartphone. Low income workers such as security guards, factory workers, all have smartphones with a 4G plan.
captn3m0 · 2 years ago
Minor clarification: UPI works fine without an Aadhaar.

(I don't have an Aadhaar, and it works fine across multiple banks)

nmridul · 2 years ago
>> smartphones are necessary to pay via UPI

No.

[1] UPI money transfer without Internet or smartphone; know how to do it - https://www.businesstoday.in/industry/banks/story/upi-money-...

davelondon · 2 years ago
India is really frustrating for tourists right now... I was there earlier this year, and there were several things I just couldn't do without UPI... Some restaurants just didn't accept cash so I couldn't eat there... Bus tickets had to be booked online with UPI... I think they're moving towards opening it up, but when I was there it was completely impossible for a foreigner to use UPI.
rishikeshs · 2 years ago
Now they have started an option for UPI for tourists!
nerdbert · 2 years ago
> Please note that cash payments are not at all popular in India

I was just in India, and while I didn't do very many of the transactions that a resident would, I used cash for almost everything (except for supermarkets where I paid with my non-Indian credit card).

It didn't feel at all difficult to get by with cash.

shmde · 2 years ago
> Please note that cash payments are not at all popular in India and UPI is the most common means of digital payment.

Delhi != India. Cash is still very popular in India and many shopkeepers groan when I ask them to show their QR code for payment.

rishikeshs · 2 years ago
It was a typo. What i meant is among digital payments, UPI is most popular and card payments are not all!
rishikeshs · 2 years ago
Also it is a way to evade taxes as per my observation!
TekMol · 2 years ago
I'm surprised so many here seem to be fine with paying by credit card.

Isn't it causing you an uncomfortable feeling, that one company gets all the data about every single thing you buy?

And via this also everywhere you go and when you go there?

So you are a 100% "see through" person to Apple, Google and/or Visa?

yoz-y · 2 years ago
For me, the answer is no, I don't care about this at all.
TekMol · 2 years ago
Would you also not care if that dataset gets leaked to the internet some day?
dottjt · 2 years ago
It doesn't bother me, no.

I think what I've realised (at least personally), is that we only have a short time to live on this planet, and if life can be made more convenient by offering up my data, allowing me to spend my time doing stuff I actually care about, then I'll do it.

steets · 2 years ago
I consider myself a very security-oriented person, but you have to draw the line somewhere, and I find myself trusting my financial institution for better or for worse. They already have my SSN, they already have my large purchase history and loans and card history via credit reporting agencies, which you CAN'T opt-out of; there's very little else they can't also find out if they really wanted to. At some point you just have to throw in the towel.
zx8080 · 2 years ago
I've seen ads on using Visa and Mastercard for public transportation instead of special cards. Especially in Japan and Singapore. Not sure how two aspects are addressed: privacy and availability (in case of bank card txs do not work?).

Personally, I'll stick to using the special transport card or cash on public transportation as long as I can. I hate the idea of all my movements being sold to advertisers (or, actually, anyone paying some moneys).

InsomniacL · 2 years ago
No it doesn't bother me, actually the opposite.

I feel much more comfortable spending money, knowing that;

1. It's the banks money, I can contest any changes on my statement before any money leaves my account. (consider paying for a bathroom renovation and the builder runs off with money or goes bust. The bank takes the hit, not me.)

2. That mass-data helps protect me, such as, abnormal usage can be queried for protentional fraud automatically.

jcfrei · 2 years ago
Someone correct me on this but those companies only see the vendor and the amount - not specific items afaik. What I'd be more worried about are the rewards programs at the big retailers - that's the way to really analyze a persons behavior.
nerdbert · 2 years ago
Somehow I have decided that being paid 2% by the credit card company is a fair exchange.
CalRobert · 2 years ago
I detest it, but more on a broad societal level than individual. But I still use card (I don't really care for involving Google in yet another part of my life) because, well, what I do individually doesn't matter.

Dead Comment

drowsspa · 2 years ago
Brazilian here, even beggars accept PIX, the national free electronic transfer system. You can use it to transfer to anyone else by their phone number or email, or to pay bills. Cash is getting less and less common.

I find it funny when crypto bros were claiming it was about "banking the unbanked", when it's not a problem at least in a third-world country in Brazil. Banks are obligated to open at least a very basic bank account for basically anyone.

wtmt · 2 years ago
Here in India, cashless payments through various proprietary and privacy harming platforms, such as PhonePe, Google Pay, Paytm are popular among the city crowds and has become more common due to these elites pushing for it with street vendors. While these platforms use the UPI platform underneath (which is run by a consortium of public, private and foreign banks), most people don’t know about UPI IDs and instead use the linked phone numbers. “Google Pay me” or “Paytm me” is the “Venmo me” (of the U.S.) equivalent here.

There are tons of “fintech” companies backed by VCs, each trying to capture a chunk of the market with heavy competition. They sometimes partner with traditional banks to offer services.

Meanwhile, the linking of the so-called unique number given to residents (not just citizens), called “Aadhaar”, with bank accounts has resulted in more frauds and thefts through biometric scams (gummy fingers). The Aadhaar number as well as fingerprints are obtained from property registration documents, which are publicly exposed.

With UPI, there is a “payment request” mode too. Since digital literacy is extremely low in India, a lot of people have been losing money through various vishing and phishing scams. Getting the money back may also require greasing the palms of law enforcement.

As for me, I encourage people to use cash. I use a combination of cash and online payments. I carry all combinations of currency notes and coins to pay for any amount. I also have a rough idea of how much I’d need.

Whenever more people realize that the government is tracking their spends (including the push for a retail CBDC), they’ll start switching to cash mainly to evade taxes. So far though, most people have neither realized nor understood privacy concerns, give surveillance, etc. (I’m not blaming the poor and vulnerable sections, who already have a lot more to worry about)