“Children are taught never to speak to unknown grown-ups, especially those regarded by their parents as untrustworthy.”
Not my kids, they talk to anyone. When they ask me a question about someone I encourage them to ask the person. When the want something I encourage them to ask (respectfully). They always, always get nice responses and I get friendly conversations afterwards. Think of yourself, how would you react? Well 99.999 of people would react the same.
I'm generally in a mood such that someone starting some small talk to me turns around my whole day for the better. Of course, if there is some back and forth etc the effect is stronger..
catiopatio says:>"I would also genuinely, deeply, and silently dislike every second of the forced interaction."<
No verbal interaction is forced, especially one initiated by a child toward an adult.
Act as you wish. Young people need to see examples of persons who are abnormal, maladjusted or even insane so that they can recognize them and learn how to deal with them in the future. Their Dad can explain that too.
If you don’t want to talk to them, why not just say so? “I’m afraid I’m busy, I hope you understand” or “Excuse me, but I would prefer to mind my own business”. They might not love the response, but no sane person would continue the conversation after that.
Also, out of sheer curiosity, may I ask why you would dislike the interaction?
The cultural differences about this are vast even in the United States. In the part of the Midwest where I grew up, strangers would come up and offer compliments about your outfit or car, make friendly small talk in the grocery store checkout line, or at least offer a quiet "hi" and smile when passing on the sidewalk. In the Pacific Northwest, we try not to even look at each other when passing, although people are friendly when something does get us talking.
This is pretty on the nose for me. My wife and I moved from a Chicago suburb to Portland about 5 years ago. The amount of effort required just to strike up a convo with strangers (and keep it going) was pretty significant. We especially missed how acceptable giving people "the business" (i.e. harmless joking or razzing to lower someone's guard and make them feel comfortable) was so common where we grew up. You could give someone sh*t for something trivial then end up helping them remodel their basement.
It was isolating for a while until we sort of gave up and accepted that people are just different out here. There's nothing wrong with that, but we're moving back to Chicago (for other reasons). We're looking forward to not having to jump through hoops just to have a meaningful convo with a stranger again.
Giving people shit, in a friendly way, is part of the Midwestern use of irony. They like to say the opposite of what they mean when it's assumed to be understood that is the case. "You're getting here soon, right?" "Nah, I'm stopping at a spa in Gary, Indiana." Something like that.
Those who aren't used to it often don't appreciate it.
And which area of Portland? I've had generations of neighbors who I've never spoken with, or just hello'd. None that I've even sat down to dinner with.
This matches my personal experience. When I moved from Boston to Austin it was like night and day how different interactions with strangers were. Strangers in Boston kept to themselves and when you approached them it would have an air of “what are you trying to sell me?” in which their feet were already pointed away from you and they were prepared to keep walking.
On the other hand, Texans are far more open to speak with strangers and shoot the shit with people in public. There’s less rush to keep moving and people are far more open to chatting.
My theory is that population density may have an effect on this behavior. Boston is far more dense and when you ride the train or bus everyday people keep to themselves. It’s far more emotionally draining to keep interacting with everyone that you meet so people conserve their energy.
Density is attractive to individuals who want to exploit as many other people as efficiently as possible.
For example, in the downtown areas of Canada's densest cities, before smartphones, about 90-95% of random strangers coming up to me wanted money, either as beggars or seeking donations for some "charity". The other 5-10% would generally be asking for directions or the time. Even those interactions could have always just been a ruse to see if I have a watch worth stealing, or as a distraction to help enable pickpocketing.
Since smartphones became widespread and nearly everybody has access to the time and directions on their own, pretty much 100% of the time I've been approached by strangers in public is because they want me to give them money. One person mistook me for somebody they knew.
It's just not worth me spending any time responding to random strangers because it's almost guaranteed they just want money.
Density is a factor in this for sure, but I think weather/climate is also a factor. It gets cold in Boston in the winter for example, and in the PNW it's raining and on the cooler side for a good chunk of the year. In those climates people tend to want to get back indoors quickly and not loiter around, and that carries over even into the warmer months.
No one is friendly in urban areas because you are getting accosted / hustled so often. If a stranger tries to talk to me I have to give an ocular pat down and risk assessment before engaging beyond a skeptical glance.
Are you sure that you don't want to make some extra money on the side by joining my MLM? You can do so from the comfort of your vacation home timeshare! And if something happens to you, do you really have the term life insurance that you absolutely need?
I’m inthe PNW and feel this is largely situation dependent. Was camping in Oregon last weekend and was surprised by how many different groups of campers were conversing at length with one another. When on/around my boat at the marina it’s common for folks to chat openly.
In my neighborhood it’s very much the opposite and there’s little/no eye contact and chatter.
It also reduces the number of people with bad intentions who will approach you. A dog may be cute and small, but they are also fast, bitey, barky and very good on picking up threats.
'Hei-hei' here where I live in Norway. Or 'God morgen'. Or more likely 'morgen-morgen', which is pronounced something like morn-morn. Much like in England where we might say 'Morning!' with a smile.
The article mentions "Strangers on a Train" which I've never seen or read but I've had a number of really interesting encounters from train talk. It's a natural place to end up in a scenario where you could chat with someone for a decently long time if you both choose to do so. A takeaway I always remind myself is that you never know what's right next to you.
Last month someone asked me which track the train leaves from. I answered and that turned into chatting with someone from Lebanon visiting the US who was nearing the completion of their PhD in theoretical physics mixed with quantum computing. Out of no where a 90 minute conversation ensued around programming, life in different countries and a bunch of other assorted topics.
Can confirm that trains are an amazing place to meet people. I commute on the Amtrak Northeast Regional and have made 3 regular acquaintances with whom I've had long conversations.
Never would have happened on a plane or or on the highway.
I sometimes overcompensate for anxiety by being chatty and over familiar, but since I’ve had kids it’s also behaviour that I think is important for them to see. It makes my day when I have a positive interaction with a stranger but I also want my kids to know people are mostly kind and interesting and it’s okay to feel confident around them.
Having kids is a great way to lower the barrier. As a parent with autism ('introvert') it is also a great way to overstep my boundaries. Like, I have to, even if I don't want to. My secret weapons are smiling and talking to my kid.
I grew up in a small town, with a family who was at church every single Sunday (and if there was a fish fry or social, we were there too).
My dad grew up in the same town, with a similar family situation. And as a result, he knew everyone. He used to drive me absolutely crazy whenever we'd go out because no matter where we went, he'd bump into someone and wind up in a 30 minute chat.
But as an adult I realized it was hugely important for my own social skills to witness and get pulled into those conversations.
I'm an introvert (I take after my mother in this respect), but I think I'm a pretty decent small talker, and since my own kids have started getting bigger I've been trying to make an effort to overcome the friction I feel to opening up to new people so that I can demonstrate some of what my dad did. For the most part I actually enjoy talking with people, but I do really have to push myself to get started with conversations sometimes.
My wife and I actually just forced ourselves to attend a birthday party for a neighbor that we'd been invited to tonight. Our kids landed there ahead of us so our hands were forced. We ended up having a great time and got such a warm greeting from the host (sometimes it can really surprise me how happy a person is to see us, haha).
tl;dr: It's definitely worth the effort to push past the friction sometimes.
I’ve spent years of therapy trying to overcome my fear of talking to strangers. Mostly it just feels inappropriate and unwanted; like I would be intruding on people. I can talk to strangers when there’s an appropriate social context (e.g. clerks / service people). But lacking the right context, it feels deeply uncomfortable.
Has anyone overcome this problem? Where would you go to interact with strangers–importantly where there’s an appropriate social context that permits interacting.
First: Work a job that is socially embedded. Restaurants, grocery stores, front desk retail, anything customer service related. Getting comfortable with people has a weird out-of-order solution where if your discomfort is visible, the interaction will sour; find something that forces a fix to the initial discomfort, like the jobs above. They'll act as a shim that'll let you bypass the initial anxiety.
Second: The emotions you wear on your face are what perpetuates a conversation. If you can find a reason--not act, not fake--to want to talk to someone, to learn about them, they will immediately, unconsciously pick up on it, and return that excitement. Conversely, if you don't trust someone, or think they don't want to talk to you, they wont want to talk to you, and they won't find you trustworthy, either. It's a counterinruitive, ready-fire-aim thing. You don't need to be perfect at this, you just need to be aware of it. People are excellent at vetting intentions.
Third: The idea that there's somewhere you can go that will make socialization easy is a farce. Interaction is "permitted" everywhere, and you can try it anywhere. Go for several short conversations instead of putting all your effort into one. You should be fishing for enthusiasm: if you get no effort back, then it is unwanted. Drop it and try again with someone else.
Literally any event/gathering is a great place to start.
The whole point of bringing groups together is to encourage people to interact. It’s awkward for everyone, but you can make it less awkward for others by just being friendly.. complimenting someone, or even just asking a simple question to get some engagement.
As long as you are respectful, friendly, and not pushy, everyone will respect you back.
Try to find some local gatherings in your own community, maybe a church potluck (they won’t care if you’re not religious, they are just happy you are there) .. maybe a local game shop has some DND evenings, or just find something that aligns with your personal interests.
To improve your nervousness about speaking, toastmasters or a Dale Carnegie class are both good options as well.
Go work retail somewhere that doesn't try to hard-sell people.
Most places will start by giving you some training materials on how to initiate friendly, non-threatening interactions with the customers. These are basically to burn some non-business cycles with the customer to prove that you're not trying to hard-sell them by using aggressive and manipulative techniques on them[1].
There are a lot of open-ended, safe topics you'll use for this. But once you get comfortable with the technique, you'll realize that you could use almost any question. Even rather specific ones like, "What's your favorite sandwich" can start a perfectly fine conversation with someone. Most people like new, unpredictable utterances and as long as you present it as non-threatening it can lead to a fruitful conversation.
Along with this you'll learn to time your speech to provide plenty of spaces where your interlocutor can cut away if they so wish. E.g., if you've told 3 pithy little stories which were each less than 15 seconds, they will feel at ease staying for one more before they go away. If on the other hand they aren't able to predict whether your next story is going to be a fun 10 seconds or an excruciatingly dull 5 minute rabbit hole, things are going to get awkward real quick.
Finally, if you don't listen you won't sell shit so you will have a nice daily scorecard on your progress.
1: It's amazing how well this works. Hard-selling commissions must be so razor thin that the salespeople can't even spend 30 seconds to build normal rapport with another human being. I've literally never had the experience of an employee starting out as a human being and then pivoting to aggressive/manipulative tactics. But maybe all the salespeople who excel at that are employed by big pharma and since I'm not a doctor I don't have contact with them.
What kind of therapy do you look for for things like this? As someone deeply inverted, prone to "creatively interpreting" things in a negative light, who dwells on imagined sleights, etc. I've thought maybe I need some professional help. But I'm kind of afraid of talking to people about my issues in general so I don't know what kind of therapist would work for me.
Love yourself first. If you truly believe that you have value;
that when you open your mouth and speak to others, you brighten their day;
that when other people meet you, they are happier or smarter than they were before they met you;
then it is your natural obligation to talk to other people (don't dehumanize them by calling them strangers), because you are giving them the gift of your own special human light.
I randomly said "Hi" and chatted very briefly about my kid and the apartment to a random young woman in the elevator. On the way out she literally did a little hop and a skip and in a chirpy tone she said "Yay! Interaction!"
I realised that after the COVID lockdowns people were so starved for contact with other people that any interaction would make their day. You don't need a pandemic for that, you can always make peoples' day just a bit better by saying hello.
I also feel awkward when a situation is new to me, keep repeating talking to strangers until you became used to it, that is how it works, that is how we make horses be calm and not freak out when they see plastic bags.
Reading this from an airport boarding area coming back from a conference, and I couldn't agree more. I feel like my social skills of talking to strangers have atrophied during COVID, and now I'm trying my best to exercise those social muscles again. It really requires deliberate practice.
(Working in IT) I love laptop stickers for this. Whenever I'm returning from a conference a quick look around the lounge will reveal plenty of people with laptop stickers that are an easy to to startup a conversation. "Oh you're into $LANG/$TOOL, did you go to $CONF too?".
And in the end, it feels good and fresh. Just like any other (meaningful) skill, decent social skills put forth significant effects on one's awareness of their local surroundings, and with good social skills, invaluable experiences. I've struggled with it for the best half of my life, and later ignored the need to take action and improve. I moved on to finding out the subtle beauty of just pulling up a conversation with a completely new person, of course our perspectives and opinions might differ, and that's where I see the beauty and without it, the world wouldn't have been so dynamic so I think.
I'm always surprised that so few people on planes talk to each other.
It is amazing how a talk to the person next to you on a plane can turn a boring, multiple hour long flight into a nice experience that feels way shorter.
I find a good book or movie makes the plane ride feel shorter. Talking to the person next to me so often ends up in an awkward situation when the conversation becomes tedious and boring, but it would be rude to just stop talking to them and move on to my book.
If I dont start talking to the person, I don’t have that problem.
In the context of chatting with strangers rather than someone you know, I’ve never felt it awkward for the conversation to trail off and both parties move on to something else.
On the other hand, I’ve seen not an insignificant number of cases where someone overstepped a boundary by forcing a conversation on someone who was clearly not into it. I think it’s ok to try, but given the context, cultural differences, legal requirement to stay in your assigned seat, it might be easy to get confused about consent.
Where is there a legal requirement to stay in your assigned seat? I've switched seats with people plenty of times on airplanes, or simply moved into empty rows. If you want to switch you can simply ask. (That is, if you're not afraid to talk to strangers!)
Somehow I feel that changed recently (post-COVID?).
I remember having lots of random conversations with my seatmates on planes, and I’m not the type to talk to strangers myself.
It used to be normal to always ask something along the lines of “where are you headed?” and maybe let that evolve into a chat about shared experiences about cities and places. I still remember some of the fascinating people I met this way and will never see again.
But in the last couple of years all my flights have been purely transactional where not a single casual word is ever exchanged with anyone.
The best conversation I ever had on a plane was with an elderly French couple. They didn't speak English and I know maybe half a dozen words of French. They eventually successfully communicated to me that they're taking a month-long holiday at a sort-of private island where there's these bungalows where you can stay isolated from civilisation. No Internet, no electricity, and you have to fish for your dinner. Groceries are via a guy on a canoe that turns up once a day to sell you whatever you need.
It was fascinating and amazing how with hours with nothing else to occupy us, we overcame boredom by exchanging this story despite the language barrier.
When I was in grad school, I would catch up reading journal papers on the plane and keep to myself, but finally on two separate occasions it sparked lengthy conversation, because the other person was an engineer or a mathematician.
I would suggest it’s simply because flights are often much longer than a subway ride. Making small talk for six, eight, twelve hours isn’t really fun for anyone.
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Not my kids, they talk to anyone. When they ask me a question about someone I encourage them to ask the person. When the want something I encourage them to ask (respectfully). They always, always get nice responses and I get friendly conversations afterwards. Think of yourself, how would you react? Well 99.999 of people would react the same.
I would also genuinely, deeply, and silently dislike every second of the forced interaction.
99.999% of people might react the same, but that doesn’t mean we all feel the same.
No verbal interaction is forced, especially one initiated by a child toward an adult.
Act as you wish. Young people need to see examples of persons who are abnormal, maladjusted or even insane so that they can recognize them and learn how to deal with them in the future. Their Dad can explain that too.
Also, out of sheer curiosity, may I ask why you would dislike the interaction?
Deleted Comment
It was isolating for a while until we sort of gave up and accepted that people are just different out here. There's nothing wrong with that, but we're moving back to Chicago (for other reasons). We're looking forward to not having to jump through hoops just to have a meaningful convo with a stranger again.
Those who aren't used to it often don't appreciate it.
On the other hand, Texans are far more open to speak with strangers and shoot the shit with people in public. There’s less rush to keep moving and people are far more open to chatting.
My theory is that population density may have an effect on this behavior. Boston is far more dense and when you ride the train or bus everyday people keep to themselves. It’s far more emotionally draining to keep interacting with everyone that you meet so people conserve their energy.
For example, in the downtown areas of Canada's densest cities, before smartphones, about 90-95% of random strangers coming up to me wanted money, either as beggars or seeking donations for some "charity". The other 5-10% would generally be asking for directions or the time. Even those interactions could have always just been a ruse to see if I have a watch worth stealing, or as a distraction to help enable pickpocketing.
Since smartphones became widespread and nearly everybody has access to the time and directions on their own, pretty much 100% of the time I've been approached by strangers in public is because they want me to give them money. One person mistook me for somebody they knew.
It's just not worth me spending any time responding to random strangers because it's almost guaranteed they just want money.
Yes, this is mostly an urban/rural divide. I've lived in several small New England towns where people talk to each other in public all the time.
But I've also lived in Boston. And I've learned that if a stranger strikes up a conversation in Boston, there are two possibilities:
1. They need directions or emergency aid.
2. Or they have absolutely no grasp of appropriate social norms, and I am about to have a deeply weird conversation. At best.
In theory, I am perfectly happy to speak with strangers on the subway. In practice, I do not wish to hear about how lizard people rule the world.
hold it right there, jabroni
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Maybe a better analogy is starting a lawnmower.
In my neighborhood it’s very much the opposite and there’s little/no eye contact and chatter.
Last month someone asked me which track the train leaves from. I answered and that turned into chatting with someone from Lebanon visiting the US who was nearing the completion of their PhD in theoretical physics mixed with quantum computing. Out of no where a 90 minute conversation ensued around programming, life in different countries and a bunch of other assorted topics.
Never would have happened on a plane or or on the highway.
My dad grew up in the same town, with a similar family situation. And as a result, he knew everyone. He used to drive me absolutely crazy whenever we'd go out because no matter where we went, he'd bump into someone and wind up in a 30 minute chat.
But as an adult I realized it was hugely important for my own social skills to witness and get pulled into those conversations.
I'm an introvert (I take after my mother in this respect), but I think I'm a pretty decent small talker, and since my own kids have started getting bigger I've been trying to make an effort to overcome the friction I feel to opening up to new people so that I can demonstrate some of what my dad did. For the most part I actually enjoy talking with people, but I do really have to push myself to get started with conversations sometimes.
My wife and I actually just forced ourselves to attend a birthday party for a neighbor that we'd been invited to tonight. Our kids landed there ahead of us so our hands were forced. We ended up having a great time and got such a warm greeting from the host (sometimes it can really surprise me how happy a person is to see us, haha).
tl;dr: It's definitely worth the effort to push past the friction sometimes.
Has anyone overcome this problem? Where would you go to interact with strangers–importantly where there’s an appropriate social context that permits interacting.
First: Work a job that is socially embedded. Restaurants, grocery stores, front desk retail, anything customer service related. Getting comfortable with people has a weird out-of-order solution where if your discomfort is visible, the interaction will sour; find something that forces a fix to the initial discomfort, like the jobs above. They'll act as a shim that'll let you bypass the initial anxiety.
Second: The emotions you wear on your face are what perpetuates a conversation. If you can find a reason--not act, not fake--to want to talk to someone, to learn about them, they will immediately, unconsciously pick up on it, and return that excitement. Conversely, if you don't trust someone, or think they don't want to talk to you, they wont want to talk to you, and they won't find you trustworthy, either. It's a counterinruitive, ready-fire-aim thing. You don't need to be perfect at this, you just need to be aware of it. People are excellent at vetting intentions.
Third: The idea that there's somewhere you can go that will make socialization easy is a farce. Interaction is "permitted" everywhere, and you can try it anywhere. Go for several short conversations instead of putting all your effort into one. You should be fishing for enthusiasm: if you get no effort back, then it is unwanted. Drop it and try again with someone else.
The whole point of bringing groups together is to encourage people to interact. It’s awkward for everyone, but you can make it less awkward for others by just being friendly.. complimenting someone, or even just asking a simple question to get some engagement.
As long as you are respectful, friendly, and not pushy, everyone will respect you back.
Try to find some local gatherings in your own community, maybe a church potluck (they won’t care if you’re not religious, they are just happy you are there) .. maybe a local game shop has some DND evenings, or just find something that aligns with your personal interests.
To improve your nervousness about speaking, toastmasters or a Dale Carnegie class are both good options as well.
Most places will start by giving you some training materials on how to initiate friendly, non-threatening interactions with the customers. These are basically to burn some non-business cycles with the customer to prove that you're not trying to hard-sell them by using aggressive and manipulative techniques on them[1].
There are a lot of open-ended, safe topics you'll use for this. But once you get comfortable with the technique, you'll realize that you could use almost any question. Even rather specific ones like, "What's your favorite sandwich" can start a perfectly fine conversation with someone. Most people like new, unpredictable utterances and as long as you present it as non-threatening it can lead to a fruitful conversation.
Along with this you'll learn to time your speech to provide plenty of spaces where your interlocutor can cut away if they so wish. E.g., if you've told 3 pithy little stories which were each less than 15 seconds, they will feel at ease staying for one more before they go away. If on the other hand they aren't able to predict whether your next story is going to be a fun 10 seconds or an excruciatingly dull 5 minute rabbit hole, things are going to get awkward real quick.
Finally, if you don't listen you won't sell shit so you will have a nice daily scorecard on your progress.
1: It's amazing how well this works. Hard-selling commissions must be so razor thin that the salespeople can't even spend 30 seconds to build normal rapport with another human being. I've literally never had the experience of an employee starting out as a human being and then pivoting to aggressive/manipulative tactics. But maybe all the salespeople who excel at that are employed by big pharma and since I'm not a doctor I don't have contact with them.
What kind of therapy do you look for for things like this? As someone deeply inverted, prone to "creatively interpreting" things in a negative light, who dwells on imagined sleights, etc. I've thought maybe I need some professional help. But I'm kind of afraid of talking to people about my issues in general so I don't know what kind of therapist would work for me.
The most important (and hardest) part is finding a therapist you trust.
Love yourself first. If you truly believe that you have value;
that when you open your mouth and speak to others, you brighten their day;
that when other people meet you, they are happier or smarter than they were before they met you;
then it is your natural obligation to talk to other people (don't dehumanize them by calling them strangers), because you are giving them the gift of your own special human light.
I realised that after the COVID lockdowns people were so starved for contact with other people that any interaction would make their day. You don't need a pandemic for that, you can always make peoples' day just a bit better by saying hello.
If they don't want to talk you should be able to recognize it instantly.
It is amazing how a talk to the person next to you on a plane can turn a boring, multiple hour long flight into a nice experience that feels way shorter.
I've had many fantastic conversations with people on planes and few meh ones, it's deffo worth putting a bit of effort in.
where is the risk?
If I dont start talking to the person, I don’t have that problem.
I remember having lots of random conversations with my seatmates on planes, and I’m not the type to talk to strangers myself.
It used to be normal to always ask something along the lines of “where are you headed?” and maybe let that evolve into a chat about shared experiences about cities and places. I still remember some of the fascinating people I met this way and will never see again.
But in the last couple of years all my flights have been purely transactional where not a single casual word is ever exchanged with anyone.
It was fascinating and amazing how with hours with nothing else to occupy us, we overcame boredom by exchanging this story despite the language barrier.
but those days also had a darker side, like having a dress code for passengers...