Cats have been domestic pets in the UK since at least the times of Roman civilisation, and have been allowed to roam free for much of that time. It's odd to me that there's such a contrast between attitudes towards cats roaming in Europe (which I would say is completely the norm, particularly in e.g. the UK) and the United States (and now Australia), though perhaps this is just down to different native fauna.
> The EU’s executive said Thursday that it is “a strong defender of free movement rights — including of cats” and “categorically” denied it would ever force cats to be kept indoors or on a leash, as one scientific study suggests.
The RSPB themselves have said:
“While we know that cats do kill large numbers of birds in UK gardens, there’s no evidence this is affecting decline in the same way that these other issues are” (habitat/food loss from climate change)
> we (4) compared the condition of those birds killed by cats versus those killed in collisions, e.g. window strikes. Mean (± sd) cat density was 348 ± 86 cats/km2 (n = 10 sites); considering the eight species most commonly taken by cats, the mean ratios of adult birds/cats and juvenile birds/cats across the five sites were 1.17 ± 0.23 and 3.07 ± 0.74, respectively
>
> Across species, cat-killed birds were in significantly poorer condition than those killed following collisions; this is consistent with the notion that cat predation represents a compensatory rather than additive form of mortality.
I feel like the attitude towards outdoor cats online in the United States is a lot different than the attitude in regular life, at least where I live in California.
There are a ton of cats that wander outside in our neighborhood, and I have never heard a single person say anything about it. Online, you get flamed if you even hint at your cat being outside.
I have the suspicion the amount of cats in the local ecosystem right now is lower in than it was before humans.
If you look at Natura 2000 reporting[1], the more dense and wealthier the region is, the less wild cats there are. For example, Romania which has roughly 2/3 of the territory of Germany also has twice as many F. silvestris. In the worst case, the wild cat is basically non-existent in the United Kingdom.
I've never seen a study on the matter, but I doubt there are enough feral F. catus to compensate for the loss, notwithstanding the eastern Mediterranean.
This is not a big deal in the United States as far as I'm aware. At least, nowhere I've ever lived (9 states so far) had anything like a cat curfew. Animal control mostly ignores them and focuses on dogs. If nothing else, Australia's ecosystems are inherently more fragile than those of the Americas and Eurasia just because of the relative isolation. Americas are also relatively more isolated and fragile than Eurasia (big part of why natives were easy to conquer - no horses and very little disease resistance), but not as much as Australia.
That said, even though introduction of cats everywhere but Eurasia was also human action, the contribution of domestic cats to wildlife endangerment is minuscule next to everything else humans do. Habitat loss from cities, monoculture farming, and building roads everywhere does way more destruction than cats can ever do. Cats are arguably even critical to urban rodent control, which is probably why we started keeping them as pets in the first place (aside from being so damn cute). Feeding off our stray trash would put rats and racoons and what not totally out of control if nothing was preying on them.
> The RSPB themselves have said.....there’s no evidence this is affecting decline
The RSPB know which side their bread is buttered. They are a charity who get their donations from "animal lovers", inducing cat 'owners'. They certainly won't say anything which might prejudice this source of income.
> It's odd to me that there's such a contrast between attitudes towards cats roaming in Europe
Plenty of people here in Blighty despise roaming cats leaving turds in their gardens and killing the local wildlife.
I've barred cats from the garden here after cleaning up a pile of trash for the nth time. It took some doing but it's mostly solved and it is incredible how quickly the birds seem to have found out that our garden is a safe haven. I've seen bird species that I didn't even know were in this region.
curiosity begs to know precisely how you've done this. neither of my cats scale my 8' privacy wooden fence, but that's because they are comfy (fat and lazy/have no interest to leave) house cats that are allowed to play in the back yard. however, the neighborhood roaming cats have no problem scaling the fence, as both of my cats are aware when they chase to defend their turf.
You can keep cats out of an area with electric wires.
If you want perfect, 100% exclusion you will need three hot wires:
- one about 4" below top of fence, but only 2" out from the face of the fence
- one at roughly top of fence, but 4" out from the face of the fence
- one 2" above the top of the fence, in line with the face.
... which gives you a negative (?) overhang for a climber and the top wire is insurance that they can't somehow reach/slink over the first two.
100% success over 36 months against families of raccoons who were irresistibly attracted to (otherwise) defenseless chickens. Yes, raccoons > cats both physically and mentally.
A 2.5 meter (8 foot) wall topped with very floppy chicken coop fencing dangling outward from the top. They absolutely hate it because it doesn't feel stable (which it isn't)... And closing off every hole at ground level, I have to admit that I have a new appreciation of the size holes that cats can get through.
If there is an Einstein amongst cats I think there is still a viable path through a tree that is relatively close to fence but it would require some pretty tricky jumps and there would be no way back out.
In Western Australia (I think), cats are already restricted to the house plus exterior deck/veranda/patio, which must be caged to prevent them from going further. This is referred to as a ‘catio’. I suspect that, given the bugs, putting an insect screen around your patio has other benefits too.
Googling for other articles in this with more details, it looks the places that have implemented cat curfews are requiring cats to be indoors at night.
That's interesting, because in the US most concern over cats killing other animals is for birds and those birds are almost all diurnal. The non-birds cats kill a lot of are also mostly diurnal or crepuscular (active around sunrise and sunset). The nocturnal animals cats kill seem to be mostly things that most people are happy to have them kill (rats and mice).
So in the US if there was a cat curfew I'd expect it to be that cats have to be indoors by dawn, and can't be let out until the end of twilight.
A cat curfew at night in Australia suggests that it is nocturnal animals Australians are worried about. Which animals are those?
Are cats not as big a problem for diurnal animals there because those animals are scary Australian animals that cats are afraid to fuck with, or scary Australian animals that people are happy to have cats get rid of?
I would not be drawing connections to reality from government actions. California imposed COVID curfew [1] just because they could, not because the viruses are nocturnal. At best, if there was actually any thought put into it at all, it's to trap feral cats at night, when they are most active, and if any house cat gets trapped too the owner can be told to get stuffed and ticketed for violating the curfew.
This is not an issue just for Australia. There seems to be an epidemic of stray cats here in the US also. Many come from people that leave their animals behind when they have to move, and the issue seems to escalate every time there is a downturn in the economy.
The stray situation is even worse in europe. US you might see a couple random strays in your neighborhood. Certain cities in europe you can walk 10 minutes and probably come by 100 cats along the way.
Stray animal control in the USA varies by region. In the northeast, catch-neuter-release programs have been so effective, it's difficult to find strays and if you want a pet from an animal rescue, it'll cost several hundred dollars to get an animal from elsewhere. Usually "elsewhere" is the south, where CNR programs have been less effective, strays still abound, and rescue prices are much lower (plus you can easily obtain a pet for $0 if one just follows you home).
it's just a cultural misunderstanding, in europe cats are not considered a problem, they are just one of tge species of animals that live in symbiosis with humans in the cities. just like birds. in Rome the local authorities actually pay people to feed the cats
I live in the suburbs in SF Bay Area, and at night when I walk my dog, I never see cats roaming around. I see coyotes, foxes, skunks, and raccoons. My guess is if you don't kill the coyotes and foxes they control the cat population.
Readit News
> The EU’s executive said Thursday that it is “a strong defender of free movement rights — including of cats” and “categorically” denied it would ever force cats to be kept indoors or on a leash, as one scientific study suggests.
The RSPB themselves have said:
“While we know that cats do kill large numbers of birds in UK gardens, there’s no evidence this is affecting decline in the same way that these other issues are” (habitat/food loss from climate change)
Research in the UK has suggested cats are mostly preying on the "doomed surplus": https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1474-919X....
> we (4) compared the condition of those birds killed by cats versus those killed in collisions, e.g. window strikes. Mean (± sd) cat density was 348 ± 86 cats/km2 (n = 10 sites); considering the eight species most commonly taken by cats, the mean ratios of adult birds/cats and juvenile birds/cats across the five sites were 1.17 ± 0.23 and 3.07 ± 0.74, respectively
>
> Across species, cat-killed birds were in significantly poorer condition than those killed following collisions; this is consistent with the notion that cat predation represents a compensatory rather than additive form of mortality.
There are a ton of cats that wander outside in our neighborhood, and I have never heard a single person say anything about it. Online, you get flamed if you even hint at your cat being outside.
If you look at Natura 2000 reporting[1], the more dense and wealthier the region is, the less wild cats there are. For example, Romania which has roughly 2/3 of the territory of Germany also has twice as many F. silvestris. In the worst case, the wild cat is basically non-existent in the United Kingdom.
I've never seen a study on the matter, but I doubt there are enough feral F. catus to compensate for the loss, notwithstanding the eastern Mediterranean.
[1] https://nature-art17.eionet.europa.eu/article17/species/repo...
That said, even though introduction of cats everywhere but Eurasia was also human action, the contribution of domestic cats to wildlife endangerment is minuscule next to everything else humans do. Habitat loss from cities, monoculture farming, and building roads everywhere does way more destruction than cats can ever do. Cats are arguably even critical to urban rodent control, which is probably why we started keeping them as pets in the first place (aside from being so damn cute). Feeding off our stray trash would put rats and racoons and what not totally out of control if nothing was preying on them.
From what I read, this is an oversimplification to the point where it removes agency from Native Americans and make the whole topic inherently biased.
Deleted Comment
The RSPB know which side their bread is buttered. They are a charity who get their donations from "animal lovers", inducing cat 'owners'. They certainly won't say anything which might prejudice this source of income.
> It's odd to me that there's such a contrast between attitudes towards cats roaming in Europe
Plenty of people here in Blighty despise roaming cats leaving turds in their gardens and killing the local wildlife.
curiosity begs to know precisely how you've done this. neither of my cats scale my 8' privacy wooden fence, but that's because they are comfy (fat and lazy/have no interest to leave) house cats that are allowed to play in the back yard. however, the neighborhood roaming cats have no problem scaling the fence, as both of my cats are aware when they chase to defend their turf.
If you want perfect, 100% exclusion you will need three hot wires:
- one about 4" below top of fence, but only 2" out from the face of the fence
- one at roughly top of fence, but 4" out from the face of the fence
- one 2" above the top of the fence, in line with the face.
... which gives you a negative (?) overhang for a climber and the top wire is insurance that they can't somehow reach/slink over the first two.
100% success over 36 months against families of raccoons who were irresistibly attracted to (otherwise) defenseless chickens. Yes, raccoons > cats both physically and mentally.
If there is an Einstein amongst cats I think there is still a viable path through a tree that is relatively close to fence but it would require some pretty tricky jumps and there would be no way back out.
That's interesting, because in the US most concern over cats killing other animals is for birds and those birds are almost all diurnal. The non-birds cats kill a lot of are also mostly diurnal or crepuscular (active around sunrise and sunset). The nocturnal animals cats kill seem to be mostly things that most people are happy to have them kill (rats and mice).
So in the US if there was a cat curfew I'd expect it to be that cats have to be indoors by dawn, and can't be let out until the end of twilight.
A cat curfew at night in Australia suggests that it is nocturnal animals Australians are worried about. Which animals are those?
Are cats not as big a problem for diurnal animals there because those animals are scary Australian animals that cats are afraid to fuck with, or scary Australian animals that people are happy to have cats get rid of?
1. https://www.kcra.com/article/california-limited-curfew-covid...
occasionally you'll hear a harrowing mad scramble in the street, and I'm thinking "it's happening"
https://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2013/02/03/170851048/do-we...