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nevi-me · 2 years ago
It'd be useful to know what the end goal is for ThePhd, like what would be a satisfactory outcome for them?

What happened to them was hurtful, I understand and sympathise with that. However when one steps back and reads their responses, coupled to an extent with their writing (of course someone else would reach a diff conclusion), they appear to be an aggressive and maybe even vindictive character.

You can't really quit the way you did, and then still dangle things like [0]. People who utter such things out can portray an "I'll get you" attitude.

Then when someone responds and you're unhappy with their response, you agress and call them a mtherfcker [1].

Some might consider it to be too late, however some form of mediation might still be necessary.

[0] https://cohost.org/ThePhD/post/2720152-mn#comment-fdd4ee8d-9...

[1] https://pony.social/@thephd/111005208985561162

mort96 · 2 years ago
You're saying he's not allowed to give Rust another shot and then leave Rust again once yet more bullshit is thrown his way from prominent members of the Rust community? Why not?

Is your problem with it that he decided to use Rust for that project or that he decided to move away from Rust for that project?

nevi-me · 2 years ago
There's things a reasonable and mature person doesn't dangle knowing that it's unfruitful.

I'll give you an example of my impression of their comment. You ask your child to clean their room when you leave for work. When you come back, you find them having not cleaned it.

In retaliation, you say "I had spoken to the baker to make you your favourite cake for this weekend, now I'm going to call them and ask them to no longer make it".

The cake is "part of the public domain" of whatever thing they were working on, because if they were working on a private codebase nobody would care if they wrote it in D or E or G.

Read what you may of it. To deal with emotionally manipulative people in our lives, we've learnt to identify cues like this one. There's a reason why when angry the best advice is to bite one's tongue.

Ygg2 · 2 years ago
He (Jean Heyd) doesn't intend to give Rust another shot. He's done with Rust. Apparently.
dataangel · 2 years ago
Oh please fuck right off. How is saying "I had a bad experience with this community so I'm going to use a different programming language now" dangling anything?
nevi-me · 2 years ago
"I had been making this thing that I was going to share with the world in X, now I'll have to choose Y or Z".

The dangle is this sharing of X with the world. If whatever they were writing was private, nobody would have cared, and they'd have known that enough not to bother dangling it.

amluto · 2 years ago
One thing I don’t really understand: if conference organizers accept (or invite or whatever) a keynote speaker, and the acceptance/invitation doesn’t reference any particular topic, then presumably they are actually saying they will give a keynote slot to the speaker to speak about whatever they like. And if the speaker gives a talk about something they’ve worked on but that doesn’t have any sort of consensus to become part of Rust, so what? It’s a keynote talk, not a merge request.

If the organizers wanted a talk about an actual accepted feature, surely the invitation should have said so.

rabidferret · 2 years ago
I'm the organizer who gave the invite. It was indeed explicitly framed as "you can talk about whatever you want". In my opinion it was pretty obvious this is what JeanHeyd would talk about before the invite went out. He told us about the topic in that same call. There was a member of project leadership in the call as well, no concerns were raised about the topic. The first time JeanHeyd learned of any concerns with it was when project leadership asked me to downgrade the talk
ReleaseCandidat · 2 years ago
If I understand correctly, the problem hasn't been the organisational team, but David Tolnay himself. Who intervened with the help of Josh(?). In his own words:

    Josh was aware of this from his role as not only language co-lead, but also member of the RustConf program committee1.

    I expressed forceful skepticism that the compile-time introspection work, which I had been passively following with great interest, would achieve a state that would be suitable for a RustConf keynote in time for 2023 RustConf, for lack of adequate lang team iteration (neither for the Rust Foundation grant selection, nor conference presentation) to land well with the RustConf audience.
From https://gist.github.com/dtolnay/7f5da4bf057b7c6d0d00c6bed306...

amluto · 2 years ago
I was once invited to give a talk (which was more or less a keynote, although I don’t think the word “keynote” was used) at a major conference. I was specifically invited to talk about my work on X. IMO it would have been really odd for anyone on the program committee to subsequently say “well, I’m skeptical that project X will pan out — maybe the talk should just be a regular track talk about X or a plenary talk about Y instead” after the invitation was given.

It’s not as though giving a talk implies any particularly strong endorsement by the community at large that the subject is going to pan out. And if the talk is just about “whatever the speaker is working on”, then there is absolutely no implied endorsement of what they end up talking about.

mepian · 2 years ago
The response of JeanHeyd Meneide: https://pony.social/@thephd/111005164984251004
self_awareness · 2 years ago
This is really hard to follow. Especially because of all those "some individuals", "someone", "two people". Why won't people put names on other people? Accusations are easy when done anonymously. Own your words!
fmajid · 2 years ago
Apparently a big part of the brouhaha is the Rust projet leaders closing ranks to not disclose the identity of the person who made the call to demote JeanHeyd's no-longer-a-keynote, widely assumed to be David Tolnay (because the comptime proposal in the keynote would be a threat to Tolnay's little software empire, most prominently the serde crate).

https://dragon.style/@pyrex/111005018693053136

I have no way to know if @pyrex' account is accurate, but Omerta and lack of transparency is not a good look in any organization.

Here is the dropped keynote, which does go in depth on the impact on serde (mostly simplifications):

https://soasis.org/posts/a-mirror-for-rust-a-plan-for-generi...

ReleaseCandidat · 2 years ago
> widely assumed to be David Tolnay

I would say that David Tolnay himself confirmes that in the linked Gist:

    I expressed forceful skepticism that the compile-time introspection work, which I had been passively following with great interest, would achieve a state that would be suitable for a RustConf keynote in time for 2023 RustConf, for lack of adequate lang team iteration (neither for the Rust Foundation grant selection, nor conference presentation) to land well with the RustConf audience.

matt3210 · 2 years ago
Rust community is always in drama and it’s just silly and unprofessional
piva00 · 2 years ago
I have a vague memory of the Ruby community from around 2008-2010 going through dramas as well, but at least it wasn't in the core-lang layer.

It left a very similar impression: silly and unprofessional.

guywithabike · 2 years ago
You can’t make an accusation like that based on “vague memory”. At least try to substantiate your claim.
xenator · 2 years ago
DDD - Drama Driven Development
emilfihlman · 2 years ago
Adding : to the front would make this pretty funny actually
12_throw_away · 2 years ago
I once worked at a university where the Physics department was in such disarray that they installed an english professor as chair of the physics department for a few years. Maybe some other language that's grown past its teen drama years could lend a hand with Rust? I don't think the current leadership are up to the task, frankly.
Sytten · 2 years ago
TLDR for those not aware of the drama: ThePHD was invited to give the keynote talk at Rustconf 2023 on reflection in rust. Someone emitted doubt it was a good idea and it was pulled in an insulting manner from him. Fast forward to now where it was speculated that dtolnay (an influencal person for rust) was the one expressing doubts.

IMO there is likely a lot of miscommunication and some power trip/ego that resulted in this particular event. Yes people should apologize and improve transparency but ThePHD is really not acting well either and has a big ego of his own it seems to me.

pjmlp · 2 years ago
Ego, or not, this a by the book example of how not to deal with guests, or people in general for that matter.

Additionally, as side effect from this drama, ThePHD is now back working on WG14 and WG21, and his employer dropped all Rust related efforts.

gdcbe · 2 years ago
Agreed. Very much ego issues on both sides indeed.

Next to that I feel some people love any negativity about Rust to make them feel better. Just like there are fans on the other end of the spectrum. Yet to me this just seems to be a typical human issue and that you see play out in pretty much any org and country… not sure why rust as a group of communities would be different then that. If you solve this you’re well on your way to have hope on world peace, no?

Most of us are pragmatic I would hope and realise that Rust has grown into an alternative for some projects where it suits for. Is it for everything? Is it perfect? Is it the best?

No, no, and shrug. But still, glad it exists :) let’s enjoy it. Continue to improve tech and ourselves and enjoy life a bit?

If he really wants to give the talk/keynote just put it on YouTube already… the world is bigger then a conference. Sure what happened was wrong, but seriously this blew out sooo out of proportion…